Megan Valnes

Hello,

We have been de schooling for 11 months now. My 3rd son will be 6 in one month and spent 6 months in Pre-k at an academically rigorous Catholic school before we decided to unschool our children. 

My concern is his use of his iPad. He loves his iPad very much. He watches gamers on YouTube, plays mine craft, Five Nights at Freddy's, and a few other games. He gets on first thing in the morning and pretty much holds onto it all day until bed, unless I take the iPad and give him little breaks. He's never really upset with me for the breaks, but he is always anxious to get his iPad back. When he's on break, he plays very well with his brother and sisters and we get out on bike rides, etc. Yesterday I read aloud for a long time and he enjoyed that very much too.

My question is whether or not taking his iPad for breaks is in line with radical unschooling? I know it's my issue--I feel very anxious when he's on the iPad all day. I feel like there are so many other things we could be doing and I do try and introduce these ideas, but he's usually not interested because he's on the iPad. He wasn't eating very well because of watching the iPad during meals and so I began to take it during meals and he eats much better--but he wants it back right away.

I feel as though maybe I'm not creating a rich enough environment for him, but I look I around my house and we have all sorts of games, toys, books, art supplies, bikes, scooters, park days, etc. Am I being too controlling? Do I just allow carte Blanche on the iPad for him as long as he wants it that way?

Gratefully,
Megan



--
Sent from Gmail Mobile

Tiffani

I have been where you are. I have 5 kids. When we started unschooling or deschooling one of my sons(middle child) was 7. When we began homeschooling we didn't have limits on video games exactly but we did have times that I expected the tvs to be off for other activities. As we started deschooling and I allowed my son to have as much time on the video games as he wanted he would spend all day on them. I worried a lot. My other kids didn't do that.

I offered many activities and sometimes he would join us, most of the time he chose to continue to play his game. Sometimes I would get upset that he spent many days in a row doing "nothing but playing video games"(my words at the time). I worried that I was not offering and interesting enough experience for him. I was offering him what he needed by letting him enjoy his games. i would bring him snacks and sometimes sit and watch as advised on this list. I listen to him talk about his games and the friends he made while playing online.

As we grew into this way of life I started to realize how much he was learning from his games. He started researching on his own history, particularly wars and military vehicles. One day we were stopped by a military train full of all kinds of military vehicles and he could name them all. He was so excited. When we saw snow for the first time he talked about Russian soldiers and how they had to fight in the snow. 

I think he spent a year filling most of his days with video games, way beyond my comfort level. He is 13 now and he still plays daily. He does not spend as many hours on them. He has friends, he scooters and skates, he reads and writes, he is kind to young children, he has lots of patience, he is caring and argumentative. He is strong and loves to help me when he thinks I need some muscle. I love the young man he has become.

I am glad I listened to the wise voices on this list and in my local unschooling group. I believe I have the best teens around because of the parenting and education style I have chosen to follow even when it was tough.

Tiffani

From: "Megan Valnes meganvalnes@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2015 10:58 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Control and worry

 
Hello,

We have been de schooling for 11 months now. My 3rd son will be 6 in one month and spent 6 months in Pre-k at an academically rigorous Catholic school before we decided to unschool our children. 

My concern is his use of his iPad. He loves his iPad very much. He watches gamers on YouTube, plays mine craft, Five Nights at Freddy's, and a few other games. He gets on first thing in the morning and pretty much holds onto it all day until bed, unless I take the iPad and give him little breaks. He's never really upset with me for the breaks, but he is always anxious to get his iPad back. When he's on break, he plays very well with his brother and sisters and we get out on bike rides, etc. Yesterday I read aloud for a long time and he enjoyed that very much too.

My question is whether or not taking his iPad for breaks is in line with radical unschooling? I know it's my issue--I feel very anxious when he's on the iPad all day. I feel like there are so many other things we could be doing and I do try and introduce these ideas, but he's usually not interested because he's on the iPad. He wasn't eating very well because of watching the iPad during meals and so I began to take it during meals and he eats much better--but he wants it back right away.

I feel as though maybe I'm not creating a rich enough environment for him, but I look I around my house and we have all sorts of games, toys, books, art supplies, bikes, scooters, park days, etc. Am I being too controlling? Do I just allow carte Blanche on the iPad for him as long as he wants it that way?

Gratefully,
Megan



--
Sent from Gmail Mobile


Rod Thomas

    My son is 16 and has rarely left the house, or his room except for food, in 4 years.  I offer outings, suggestions, co-ops, classes, sports.

There are v occasional visits to relatives and the orthodontist but that’s about it.  …  Im still concerned…

 

Kathy

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2015

Stephen Burke

=== He's never really upset with me for the breaks, but he is always anxious to get his iPad back. ===

This piece by Pam Economics of Restricting TV Watching of Children was eye opening for me and put some pieces of the puzzle together about restricting things like TV, iPad, XBox, Wii, whatever and what that does to someone.  I think it's pretty important to deeply understand this idea.

My boys are a little younger than the original poster 5 and just shy of 3, but I think this applies.  I found that when I was home with them and I got anxious about how much time they were spending on the iPad, often times they did ask to do other things and I didn't say yes to them.  It wasn't convenient for me and I was being selfish.  They wanted to run or go outside immediately after waking up and I hadn't had any coffee and was still groggy.  They wanted to play with the spoons in the sink but I was trying to make breakfast or lunch or dinner.  When I started saying yes more in these situations my views about what they did during the day changed. 


On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 4:28 PM, Tiffani tiffermomof5@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

I have been where you are. I have 5 kids. When we started unschooling or deschooling one of my sons(middle child) was 7. When we began homeschooling we didn't have limits on video games exactly but we did have times that I expected the tvs to be off for other activities. As we started deschooling and I allowed my son to have as much time on the video games as he wanted he would spend all day on them. I worried a lot. My other kids didn't do that.

I offered many activities and sometimes he would join us, most of the time he chose to continue to play his game. Sometimes I would get upset that he spent many days in a row doing "nothing but playing video games"(my words at the time). I worried that I was not offering and interesting enough experience for him. I was offering him what he needed by letting him enjoy his games. i would bring him snacks and sometimes sit and watch as advised on this list. I listen to him talk about his games and the friends he made while playing online.

As we grew into this way of life I started to realize how much he was learning from his games. He started researching on his own history, particularly wars and military vehicles. One day we were stopped by a military train full of all kinds of military vehicles and he could name them all. He was so excited. When we saw snow for the first time he talked about Russian soldiers and how they had to fight in the snow. 

I think he spent a year filling most of his days with video games, way beyond my comfort level. He is 13 now and he still plays daily. He does not spend as many hours on them. He has friends, he scooters and skates, he reads and writes, he is kind to young children, he has lots of patience, he is caring and argumentative. He is strong and loves to help me when he thinks I need some muscle. I love the young man he has become.

I am glad I listened to the wise voices on this list and in my local unschooling group. I believe I have the best teens around because of the parenting and education style I have chosen to follow even when it was tough.

Tiffani

From: "Megan Valnes meganvalnes@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2015 10:58 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Control and worry

 
Hello,

We have been de schooling for 11 months now. My 3rd son will be 6 in one month and spent 6 months in Pre-k at an academically rigorous Catholic school before we decided to unschool our children. 

My concern is his use of his iPad. He loves his iPad very much. He watches gamers on YouTube, plays mine craft, Five Nights at Freddy's, and a few other games. He gets on first thing in the morning and pretty much holds onto it all day until bed, unless I take the iPad and give him little breaks. He's never really upset with me for the breaks, but he is always anxious to get his iPad back. When he's on break, he plays very well with his brother and sisters and we get out on bike rides, etc. Yesterday I read aloud for a long time and he enjoyed that very much too.

My question is whether or not taking his iPad for breaks is in line with radical unschooling? I know it's my issue--I feel very anxious when he's on the iPad all day. I feel like there are so many other things we could be doing and I do try and introduce these ideas, but he's usually not interested because he's on the iPad. He wasn't eating very well because of watching the iPad during meals and so I began to take it during meals and he eats much better--but he wants it back right away.

I feel as though maybe I'm not creating a rich enough environment for him, but I look I around my house and we have all sorts of games, toys, books, art supplies, bikes, scooters, park days, etc. Am I being too controlling? Do I just allow carte Blanche on the iPad for him as long as he wants it that way?

Gratefully,
Megan



--
Sent from Gmail Mobile





--

Ali Zeljo

Hi Megan,  I have four sons ages 4 up to 15.  We have been out of school forever, but I only stopped trying to control my kids about 3 years ago.  My littlest one is the most free.  I've never tried to control him!  So he isn't watching much of the day out of fear that he will never get the chance again.  Over the past 6 months he has been watching youtube videos on his iPad a lot.   I mean he wakes up, grabs his iPad, gets back in bed and watches Minecraft gameplay videos.  He moves around to the same room with me and watches all day long.  He does stop to play with his brothers, and sometimes to play Minecraft.  But even going to sleep, he has the iPad next to him and he watches straight until dozing off.  Now I would NEVER have been comfortable with this if I were still subscribing to popular info about young children needing limited time in front of videos, or mainstream rhetoric about how people are zoned out while watching.  Instead I spend a lot of time sitting next to him while he watches.  I ask him questions about the videos and I know what he is watching.  I must say, I get SO bored watching the same minecraft Mod videos over and over, but he is NOT bored at all.  After about a month straight of this 14 hours per day of watching, I did start to feel the worry that you are talking about, but I know better than to manifest that into words or action.  I wondered if it was possible that he was just zoning out watching those videos all day long and was I neglecting him? I made sure to offer lots of other fun options for things to do, but most were rejected.  What on earth could be keeping him so interested? 

Well for Christmas I decided to build 2 gaming computers for my youngest two boys.  (4 & 6)  I had experience from helping my oldest son build one a year ago, and I realized I could really get them a good computer for much much less!  Before getting these computers, these two boys were playing on laptops with 2 GB ram which made it almost impossible to run Minecraft mods.  They lagged out all the time and often just preferred to stop playing because of the computer struggles.

So now equipped with a gaming computer, my 4 year old can get any Mod he wants.  Everyday since Christmas he has asked for a new mod and everyday I download a new one.  I watch as my tiny little boy knows EXACTLY how to work the mod.  All that watching was NOT zoning out.  He was watching over and over, probably imagining himself playing it!  He was memorizing controls and names of items.  He often asks me to type something in, a huge complicated word and I'm shocked as that word is an actual item in his modified Minecraft inventory.  I have proof that he spent six months learning a TON!  He learned an entire vocabulary for each mod!  He learned the controls for it.  And he learned exactly how to play with each mod to have the most fun!

And it gets even more shocking (for me).  Today, my older boys are working to qualify for a minecraft tournament.  It is like Hunger Games.  You start with 100 players, and using strategy based on choice of kits that give you special powers, and fast clicking skills, the winner is the last one alive.  My older boys have been playing this game for two years and have become very good at it.  There is a cash prize, so it is very exciting.  This morning, my four year old decided he was going to try to qualify.  He logged on to the server and chose a kit and played a game against tons of teenagers trying to qualify for this tournament.  I was shocked as he talked about his strategy.  I watched him crafting all his tools very quickly in the same way he has seen the Youtubers do, in a hole under ground.  He knew exactly what he was doing, although I am pretty sure he has never done it before in real life!  He moved through the game, actually setting traps and catching people in them.  It came down to the last two and all his brothers and parents surrounded him as he actually WON the game!!  

Now I really see that watching other people play (or doing anything) is an incredibly powerful way to learn.  I think by watching over and over, my son has even learned the way it will feel to do it himself, so that when he does it, it is not new at all.  He does it like a pro the first time!  I'm amazed.  I never would have believed what he was learning!

Does your son have the opportunity to try the games that he likes to watch?  I bet if you watch him play them, you will be so surprised by how much he has learned from watching others.  Maybe he is learning about strategy, terminology, how to level up, etc.  And really that only scratches the surface of what is being learned. 

Warmly,
Ali




On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 11:58 AM, Megan Valnes meganvalnes@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

Hello,


We have been de schooling for 11 months now. My 3rd son will be 6 in one month and spent 6 months in Pre-k at an academically rigorous Catholic school before we decided to unschool our children. 

My concern is his use of his iPad. He loves his iPad very much. He watches gamers on YouTube, plays mine craft, Five Nights at Freddy's, and a few other games. He gets on first thing in the morning and pretty much holds onto it all day until bed, unless I take the iPad and give him little breaks. He's never really upset with me for the breaks, but he is always anxious to get his iPad back. When he's on break, he plays very well with his brother and sisters and we get out on bike rides, etc. Yesterday I read aloud for a long time and he enjoyed that very much too.

My question is whether or not taking his iPad for breaks is in line with radical unschooling? I know it's my issue--I feel very anxious when he's on the iPad all day. I feel like there are so many other things we could be doing and I do try and introduce these ideas, but he's usually not interested because he's on the iPad. He wasn't eating very well because of watching the iPad during meals and so I began to take it during meals and he eats much better--but he wants it back right away.

I feel as though maybe I'm not creating a rich enough environment for him, but I look I around my house and we have all sorts of games, toys, books, art supplies, bikes, scooters, park days, etc. Am I being too controlling? Do I just allow carte Blanche on the iPad for him as long as he wants it that way?

Gratefully,
Megan



--
Sent from Gmail Mobile


Sandra Dodd

I nominate this for the coolest use ever of “in real life”:

-=-I watched him crafting all his tools very quickly in the same way he has seen the Youtubers do, in a hole under ground.  He knew exactly what he was doing, although I am pretty sure he has never done it before in real life!  He moved through the game, actually setting traps and catching people in them. -=-

He watched other people in videos, but he had not himself, done it in the game. :-)  

So fun. :-)

Nicola McCray

You have to set the limits for children and teens, take the devices away and have strict limits.  It's unhealthy for children on so many levels, it's not a matter of being controlling it's a matter of looking out for their best interest.  There are many studies regarding the ill effects of all this technology for children and teens (and adults) everything from how bad it is for their socialization skills to how unhealthy it is for their health.  It's can cause major vision problems, it changes the way the brain develops - there are problems from the radiation the devices send out, the list goes on and on.  I am not being harsh, but all you have to do is look around at how disconnected people are becoming and think, do I want that for my child, will it make him/her happy in the long run?

Kind regards,

Nicole


On Sunday, January 11, 2015 3:33 AM, "'Rod Thomas' rthomas314@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
    My son is 16 and has rarely left the house, or his room except for food, in 4 years.  I offer outings, suggestions, co-ops, classes, sports.
There are v occasional visits to relatives and the orthodontist but that’s about it.  …  Im still concerned…
 
Kathy
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2015 4:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Control and worry
 
 
I have been where you are. I have 5 kids. When we started unschooling or deschooling one of my sons(middle child) was 7. When we began homeschooling we didn't have limits on video games exactly but we did have times that I expected the tvs to be off for other activities. As we started deschooling and I allowed my son to have as much time on the video games as he wanted he would spend all day on them. I worried a lot. My other kids didn't do that….
 
 
 


Sandra Dodd

-=-There are many studies regarding the ill effects of all this technology for children and teens (and adults)-=-

Please bring a link to one of the studies you’ve read.  Not a blog post saying there was a study, but an actual study, scientifically conducted, please.
And when you do, please add a note about how much you think school might be a factor in the findings, and whether the study was created with school in mind.

-=-everything from how bad it is for their socialization skills-=-

How new are these studies, about socialization, please?  What kinds of games?

 -=-to how unhealthy it is for their health.  -=-

Unhealthy for health?  Be more specific.

-=- It's can cause major vision problems-=-

What is “it,” please?
My mom thought reading without good light would cause major vision problems.  Her own solution was not to read, but she needed glasses in her 30’s, and I was 50 before I needed prescription glasses (used “reading glasses” from the time I was 40, after reading LOTS… but many 40-yr-old women need glasses, at 40… simple reading glasses, usually, whether they read a lot with good or bad light or didn’t read).

-=-it changes the way the brain develops-=-

“It” what?  Changes the way the brain develops in what way?  Please cite a study.

-=-there are problems from the radiation the devices send out, the list goes on and on. -=-

What “list” is this?

I’m not being rhetorical. I do want you to respond to these questions.

Sandra, listowner


Ali Zeljo

Hi Kathy,  Can you give us more details? Did he go from schooling to unschooling at 12?  And does he have siblings?  Do you hang out with him in his room?  What is he doing in his room?   Is he staying in his room because of anxiety?  Or is he choosing to stay and do something he is enjoying?

Ali



 

    My son is 16 and has rarely left the house, or his room except for food, in 4 years.  I offer outings, suggestions, co-ops, classes, sports.

There are v occasional visits to relatives and the orthodontist but that’s about it.  …  Im still concerned…

 

Kathy

Joyce Fetteroll


On Jan 11, 2015, at 10:17 AM, Nicola McCray nicolamccray@... wrote:

*** There are many studies regarding the ill effects of all this technology ***

What personal experience do you have with unschooled kids who have been supported in exploring?

What ill effects have you *personally* experienced in your own kids who have been fully supported in exploring in whatever ways they find meaningful? 

How do you explain why radically unschooled kids don't show the scary ill effects these supposed studies say will happen? Why do radically unschooled kids not show extreme reactions to media -- like violence -- that these studies say will happen?

These supposed negative effects should show up in nearly all radically unschooled kids who can freely explore through whatever media they find useful. But they don't. Why is that? Please do explain.

What Kathy is seeing is unusual. Which means there are factors other than media going on.

Joyce

Joyce Fetteroll

> On Jan 10, 2015, at 8:15 PM, 'Rod Thomas' rthomas314@... wrote:
>
> My son is 16 and has rarely left the house, or his room except for food,
> in 4 years. I offer outings, suggestions, co-ops, classes, sports.

What is he doing in his room?

How are you connecting with him? If he's playing video games, are you playing too? Do you ask him to share what he's doing with you? Do you understand enough about what he's doing to carry on a conversation? Do you understand why good things that are going on are good and bad things are bad?

Is he on line talking to other gamers?

Joyce

Nicola McCray

I'm sure my post caused some upset, it is not what I intended. Everyone has their own decisions to make.  I've just noticed some sad things going on with all of this technology and thought maybe others felt the same way.  I free-school my children, they do not use technology - we have a  dvd player and watch dvd's once in a while.  I find that for us being in nature and participating in the activities around us is what works for our family.  I understand everyone is different, guess I just feel concerned that children are growing up so disconnected, it really bothers me that adults are so disconnected too.  Seems alien to me that when I am at a restaurant or somewhere there are families not speaking and everyone is on their devices - even babies are given an ipad to keep them occupied.  I just wonder if we went back to connecting and investing in community that maybe it would benefit everyone.  Just a thought.

Here are some articles, etc.  regarding the use of technology for children.  



 
This is an article written by Physicians

Here is an actual study:

American Academy of Pediatrics:




http://movingtolearn.ca/2014/ten-reasons-why-hand-held-devices-should-be-banned-for-children-under-the-age-of-12
 


On Sunday, January 11, 2015 9:03 AM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
-=-There are many studies regarding the ill effects of all this technology for children and teens (and adults)-=-

Please bring a link to one of the studies you’ve read.  Not a blog post saying there was a study, but an actual study, scientifically conducted, please.
And when you do, please add a note about how much you think school might be a factor in the findings, and whether the study was created with school in mind.

-=-everything from how bad it is for their socialization skills-=-

How new are these studies, about socialization, please?  What kinds of games?

 -=-to how unhealthy it is for their health.  -=-

Unhealthy for health?  Be more specific.

-=- It's can cause major vision problems-=-

What is “it,” please?
My mom thought reading without good light would cause major vision problems.  Her own solution was not to read, but she needed glasses in her 30’s, and I was 50 before I needed prescription glasses (used “reading glasses” from the time I was 40, after reading LOTS… but many 40-yr-old women need glasses, at 40… simple reading glasses, usually, whether they read a lot with good or bad light or didn’t read).

-=-it changes the way the brain develops-=-

“It” what?  Changes the way the brain develops in what way?  Please cite a study.

-=-there are problems from the radiation the devices send out, the list goes on and on. -=-

What “list” is this?

I’m not being rhetorical. I do want you to respond to these questions.

Sandra, listowner




BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

<<<<<<<<<< I am not being harsh, but all you have to do is look around at how disconnected people are becoming>>>>>>>>>>>

I think quite the contrary!
People are much much more connected today because of all the technology and wonderful devices!
I am now connected to my childhood friends that I love in another country.

I have re connected to friends that now live in  different countries and states. I know right away what is going on with them. I can help others. I get news from them fast. It has been wonderful this last few years.
My 8 year old daughter just called from her dad's smart phone and they are going to stop at the grocery store to get some stuff. I can send them a list . I can even send them a picture of what I want.

 I have not seen  my dad in almost 15 years. But we Skype and that is how  he has met my kids. I can even Skype from my smart phone and take him for a tour of our farm.

So much more connection , real time too!

Some of my best friends I have met are online. Some I have not even met in real life yet and I have known them for  many many years. Some I have known for over 10 years.

I have met many of those friends in real life and it was wonderful. My daughter has friends like that. She exchanged Christmas cards with some this year. She has exchanged gifts too.

I met my husband online!

Technology has been wonderful not only to connect people but it is knowledge  and resources that can help save lives!
 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Sunday, January 11, 2015 10:32 AM, "Joyce Fetteroll jfetteroll@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 

> On Jan 10, 2015, at 8:15 PM, 'Rod Thomas' rthomas314@... wrote:
>
> My son is 16 and has rarely left the house, or his room except for food,
> in 4 years. I offer outings, suggestions, co-ops, classes, sports.

What is he doing in his room?

How are you connecting with him? If he's playing video games, are you playing too? Do you ask him to share what he's doing with you? Do you understand enough about what he's doing to carry on a conversation? Do you understand why good things that are going on are good and bad things are bad?

Is he on line talking to other gamers?

Joyce


BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

OOps the story I was going to post is here:

How Google saved a calf's life

http://sandradodd.com/screentime.html
 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Sunday, January 11, 2015 10:58 AM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:


<<<<<<<<<< I am not being harsh, but all you have to do is look around at how disconnected people are becoming>>>>>>>>>>>

I think quite the contrary!
People are much much more connected today because of all the technology and wonderful devices!
I am now connected to my childhood friends that I love in another country.

I have re connected to friends that now live in  different countries and states. I know right away what is going on with them. I can help others. I get news from them fast. It has been wonderful this last few years.
My 8 year old daughter just called from her dad's smart phone and they are going to stop at the grocery store to get some stuff. I can send them a list . I can even send them a picture of what I want.

 I have not seen  my dad in almost 15 years. But we Skype and that is how  he has met my kids. I can even Skype from my smart phone and take him for a tour of our farm.

So much more connection , real time too!

Some of my best friends I have met are online. Some I have not even met in real life yet and I have known them for  many many years. Some I have known for over 10 years.

I have met many of those friends in real life and it was wonderful. My daughter has friends like that. She exchanged Christmas cards with some this year. She has exchanged gifts too.

I met my husband online!

Technology has been wonderful not only to connect people but it is knowledge  and resources that can help save lives!
 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Sunday, January 11, 2015 10:32 AM, "Joyce Fetteroll jfetteroll@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 

> On Jan 10, 2015, at 8:15 PM, 'Rod Thomas' rthomas314@... wrote:
>
> My son is 16 and has rarely left the house, or his room except for food,
> in 4 years. I offer outings, suggestions, co-ops, classes, sports.

What is he doing in his room?

How are you connecting with him? If he's playing video games, are you playing too? Do you ask him to share what he's doing with you? Do you understand enough about what he's doing to carry on a conversation? Do you understand why good things that are going on are good and bad things are bad?

Is he on line talking to other gamers?

Joyce




Nicola McCray

That's great that you feel that way, I do not.  I see children and adults that cannot maintain eye contact, I hear adults and children that cannot have an actual conversation face to face.  Yes, some technology is useful and even helpful but there is no replacement for personal conversations, eye contact and hugs.  Anyone who has been hiking in nature knows that it is much better to feel the earth under your feet, see the flowers in bloom and hear the sounds of nature rather than play a video game or watch something online about nature.  No matter where technology takes us, it will always be the authentic experience  that truly matters.  I am quite certain that when people look back on their lives they will not think - oh wish I would have texted more, or wish I would have played more video games.  

Also, if nobody stops to think about the implications of technology then what does that say about our society?  Do you think that all of this technology is good for the environment?  Maybe all of this going forward is actually causing us major harm, I know that the depression rates of children and adults are pretty darn high.  If we are so connected as you say, how can it be that people are so lonely?  Cyberbullying is a valid  issue with children.   Our children are exposed to things they are emotionally not yet able to handle.  Technology is not infallible. 


On Sunday, January 11, 2015 9:58 AM, "BRIAN POLIKOWSKY polykowholsteins@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
<<<<<<<<<< I am not being harsh, but all you have to do is look around at how disconnected people are becoming>>>>>>>>>>>

I think quite the contrary!
People are much much more connected today because of all the technology and wonderful devices!
I am now connected to my childhood friends that I love in another country.

I have re connected to friends that now live in  different countries and states. I know right away what is going on with them. I can help others. I get news from them fast. It has been wonderful this last few years.
My 8 year old daughter just called from her dad's smart phone and they are going to stop at the grocery store to get some stuff. I can send them a list . I can even send them a picture of what I want.

 I have not seen  my dad in almost 15 years. But we Skype and that is how  he has met my kids. I can even Skype from my smart phone and take him for a tour of our farm.

So much more connection , real time too!

Some of my best friends I have met are online. Some I have not even met in real life yet and I have known them for  many many years. Some I have known for over 10 years.

I have met many of those friends in real life and it was wonderful. My daughter has friends like that. She exchanged Christmas cards with some this year. She has exchanged gifts too.

I met my husband online!

Technology has been wonderful not only to connect people but it is knowledge  and resources that can help save lives!
 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Sunday, January 11, 2015 10:32 AM, "Joyce Fetteroll jfetteroll@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 

> On Jan 10, 2015, at 8:15 PM, 'Rod Thomas' rthomas314@... wrote:
>
> My son is 16 and has rarely left the house, or his room except for food,
> in 4 years. I offer outings, suggestions, co-ops, classes, sports.

What is he doing in his room?

How are you connecting with him? If he's playing video games, are you playing too? Do you ask him to share what he's doing with you? Do you understand enough about what he's doing to carry on a conversation? Do you understand why good things that are going on are good and bad things are bad?

Is he on line talking to other gamers?

Joyce




Celeste Burke

-=but all you have to do is look around at how disconnected people are becoming=-

Seth Godin is promoting his new book in a new way. Everyone who buys, gets one free. He has multiple purchasing options where you can get more copies for less per copy. He wants his readers to share. On Twitter, there is a growing connection of people exchanging the book. Shipping it to people they've never met (in person). Meeting up locally to give copies to others that want one. I received a copy this way. I used my computer to find this generous person, and used my phone to navigate to her. We exchanged a few words and smiles and I was on my way.

I used to work for the company that developed Words With Friends. Do you know why its said to be so popular (it has many millions of daily active players)? Because it brings people together. I have heard countless stories of grateful fans writing in to say they now have a constant connection to previously distant relatives; aunts, uncles, grandparents, cousins that live far away. I've also heard many stories of people meeting, through the game, that have developed lasting relationships. Marriages and friendships that would not have been, were made possible with this technology.

When I look around I don't see disconnected people. Just yesterday my husband pointed out how common having a video chat at the supermarket has become. People are going about their business, speaking face to face, with other people using technology. When I look around I see connection. I see groups of people coming together in discussions. People from all over the world that would not have been able to communicate had it not been for the accessibility of constantly connected devices and computers.

On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Joyce Fetteroll jfetteroll@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 


> On Jan 10, 2015, at 8:15 PM, 'Rod Thomas' rthomas314@... wrote:
>
> My son is 16 and has rarely left the house, or his room except for food,
> in 4 years. I offer outings, suggestions, co-ops, classes, sports.

What is he doing in his room?

 How are you connecting with him? If he's playing video games, are you playing too? Do you ask him to share what he's doing with you? Do you understand enough about what he's doing to carry on a conversation? Do you understand why good things that are going on are good and bad things are bad?

Is he on line talking to other gamers?

Joyce


Joyce Fetteroll

> On Jan 11, 2015, at 10:17 AM, Nicola McCray nicolamccray@... wrote:
>
>
> all you have to do is look around at how disconnected people are becoming
> and think, do I want that for my child, will it make him/her happy in the long run?

Radically unschooling people? Do you personally know long-time radically unschooled kids who are disconnected and unhappy?

If all radically unschooled kids were young, if no kids had transformed when released from school and given permission to explore what intrigued them, then it would be just hopeful guessing on our part that radical unschooling makes a difference in kids lives.

Once you see how different radically unschooled kids are from their schooled peers, it's a lot easier to see that those differences are caused by school and by parenting that focuses on behavior rather than relationships.

I think what's most telling that radical unschoolers are onto something about what helps kids grow healthy and whole is that the changes kids go through when moved from school and conventional parenting are predictable. If kids loved video games they'll play a lot when restrictions are removed, just like *humans* do when scarcity becomes abundance. And just like humans, the desperate need to fill up settles down as their confidence that the limitations won't return.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-Some of my best friends I have met are online. Some I have not even met in real life yet and I have known them for  many many years. Some I have known for over 10 years. -=-

I’ve been to Alex’s house twice (for purposes of putting on an unschooling symposium with her, but I stayed before and after to hang out).  Once, Jill Parmer was there too.  I live in New Mexico.  Jill lives in Colorado.  We met in South Carolina.  We stayed in Minnesota at Alex’s.   Without online discussions of unschooling, we never would have known the others existed.

Sandra

semajrak@...

<<My son is 16 and has rarely left the house, or his room except for food, in 4 years.>>

When he comes out for his food, what happens?  

When my son, who's now 12, takes a break from what he's engaged in, I talk with him about what he's been up to.  I am so familiar with what he does that I can easily get into the details with him.  And, I learn something new every time.  Because of my level of engagement, he often invites me (or his dad) to play with him, which I'm happy to do.  When I play with him, I see what he's learning and getting out of his activities.  From there, I can and do bring in new things that might build on what he's interested in.  Or, I can suggest outings that might spark an interest in the same regard.  Or, perhaps more importantly, I can continue to be apart of the conversation and a partner in his life for as long as, and in as many ways as, he needs me to be there for and with him.  

If I wasn't paying close attention, what my son does might also look a lot like sitting in one spot for long periods of time, only to get up for food and water.  But because I do pay attention, and because I do get involved, I see so much more than that.  I can easily list what I see, but that might not help you find what you need to see to understand your own son better.  Look closely.  Look generously.  Look wide, as though you are on a open plain with nothing obstructing your view.  The more you look, the more you will see.  

When we look at a doctor with a narrow vision, we might see a person who simply moves from room to room, sitting in chairs, talking in short bursts and broken sentences to random people.  When we look narrowly at a person writing a research paper, it might look like a lot of sitting and writing, with some random grumpiness mixed in at semi-regular intervals.  When we view a dog groomer single-mindedly, we'll see eight to ten hours of elbow-deep smelly dog baths, and wonder to ourselves why anyone would want to do that.  

What we won't see is the relationship between doctor and patient that's been slowly growing for years.  We won't hear the words that aren't spoken, because they may be no longer needed.  We won't see the years of work behind a cool idea finally being molded into a form that others (with good dose of hope and a lot of painful craftsmanship) might understand.  We won't see the happy wag of the tail of one dog who loves to be groomed, or the downward slope of the neck of the dog that is anxious.  We won't notice the groomer's careful, but easy consideration of both dogs, or the fresh trot of either as they return to their owners, feeling no doubt lighter than when they came in.

Every activity can be viewed though a narrow lens of mundane pursuit.  And yet every pursuit has a meaningful history and a purpose.  We, as parents, can help a child really make the most of that purpose and help them build a history that has solid connections and a solid framework for future endeavors, whatever they may be.  As unschooling parents we are perfectly in a position to have the most influence in doing this.  That's really the gift of unschooling, in my opinion.  It's not about doing whatever.  It's about doing what feeds our curiosity to the fullest and finding ways to make the most of what we learn along the way.  That seems to work for the children as well as the parents when it's really done well.

Karen James.


D. Regan

    My son is 16 and has rarely left the house, or his room except for food, in 4 years.  I offer outings, suggestions, co-ops, classes, sports.

Sometimes parents offer things without really tapping in to what kinds of things their children like.  
Co-ops, classes and sports are mainstream extra-curricular activity options for kids, but a world of other exciting options open up when parents are engaged creative partners with their children.   Parents being  engaged interested partners to their children, is fundamental to unschooling flourishing.  

People love to be understood.  A parent offering activities that don't appeal, can indicate to children that their parents don't understand them very well.  As well as not enriching their world, it puts a further distance between parent and child.  Getting to know children better, helps them to feel better understood, helps a parent's ideas to be more relevant, and brings joy to both children and parents.

Debbie



BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I read the study.

It is pretty ridiculous

Two groups of kids from the same school.

One group gets send to an awesome week at a camp doing very cool stuff.

One group is kept at school doing the same old thing.

The group that goes to camp makes less than a point  less errors than before.
It is laughable! Really. Look at their chart.

 Incredible how they can come up with a conclusion like that .

Plus causation is not the same thing as correlation.

People really need to read the studies  and not just the articles that spout their conclusions.
 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Sunday, January 11, 2015 11:23 AM, "Nicola McCray nicolamccray@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
I'm sure my post caused some upset, it is not what I intended. Everyone has their own decisions to make.  I've just noticed some sad things going on with all of this technology and thought maybe others felt the same way.  I free-school my children, they do not use technology - we have a  dvd player and watch dvd's once in a while.  I find that for us being in nature and participating in the activities around us is what works for our family.  I understand everyone is different, guess I just feel concerned that children are growing up so disconnected, it really bothers me that adults are so disconnected too.  Seems alien to me that when I am at a restaurant or somewhere there are families not speaking and everyone is on their devices - even babies are given an ipad to keep them occupied.  I just wonder if we went back to connecting and investing in community that maybe it would benefit everyone.  Just a thought.

Here are some articles, etc.  regarding the use of technology for children.  



 
This is an article written by Physicians

Here is an actual study:

American Academy of Pediatrics:




http://movingtolearn.ca/2014/ten-reasons-why-hand-held-devices-should-be-banned-for-children-under-the-age-of-12
 


On Sunday, January 11, 2015 9:03 AM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
-=-There are many studies regarding the ill effects of all this technology for children and teens (and adults)-=-

Please bring a link to one of the studies you’ve read.  Not a blog post saying there was a study, but an actual study, scientifically conducted, please.
And when you do, please add a note about how much you think school might be a factor in the findings, and whether the study was created with school in mind.

-=-everything from how bad it is for their socialization skills-=-

How new are these studies, about socialization, please?  What kinds of games?

 -=-to how unhealthy it is for their health.  -=-

Unhealthy for health?  Be more specific.

-=- It's can cause major vision problems-=-

What is “it,” please?
My mom thought reading without good light would cause major vision problems.  Her own solution was not to read, but she needed glasses in her 30’s, and I was 50 before I needed prescription glasses (used “reading glasses” from the time I was 40, after reading LOTS… but many 40-yr-old women need glasses, at 40… simple reading glasses, usually, whether they read a lot with good or bad light or didn’t read).

-=-it changes the way the brain develops-=-

“It” what?  Changes the way the brain develops in what way?  Please cite a study.

-=-there are problems from the radiation the devices send out, the list goes on and on. -=-

What “list” is this?

I’m not being rhetorical. I do want you to respond to these questions.

Sandra, listowner






BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

OOps. Sorry for the ridiculous Sandra.
I apologize. Not my best moment as I know you do not like the word.
It aggravated me to read the study and their conclusion.
Sorry again!
 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Sunday, January 11, 2015 11:40 AM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:


I read the study.

It is pretty ridiculous

Two groups of kids from the same school.

One group gets send to an awesome week at a camp doing very cool stuff.

One group is kept at school doing the same old thing.

The group that goes to camp makes less than a point  less errors than before.
It is laughable! Really. Look at their chart.

 Incredible how they can come up with a conclusion like that .

Plus causation is not the same thing as correlation.

People really need to read the studies  and not just the articles that spout their conclusions.
 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Sunday, January 11, 2015 11:23 AM, "Nicola McCray nicolamccray@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
I'm sure my post caused some upset, it is not what I intended. Everyone has their own decisions to make.  I've just noticed some sad things going on with all of this technology and thought maybe others felt the same way.  I free-school my children, they do not use technology - we have a  dvd player and watch dvd's once in a while.  I find that for us being in nature and participating in the activities around us is what works for our family.  I understand everyone is different, guess I just feel concerned that children are growing up so disconnected, it really bothers me that adults are so disconnected too.  Seems alien to me that when I am at a restaurant or somewhere there are families not speaking and everyone is on their devices - even babies are given an ipad to keep them occupied.  I just wonder if we went back to connecting and investing in community that maybe it would benefit everyone.  Just a thought.

Here are some articles, etc.  regarding the use of technology for children.  



 
This is an article written by Physicians

Here is an actual study:

American Academy of Pediatrics:




http://movingtolearn.ca/2014/ten-reasons-why-hand-held-devices-should-be-banned-for-children-under-the-age-of-12
 


On Sunday, January 11, 2015 9:03 AM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
-=-There are many studies regarding the ill effects of all this technology for children and teens (and adults)-=-

Please bring a link to one of the studies you’ve read.  Not a blog post saying there was a study, but an actual study, scientifically conducted, please.
And when you do, please add a note about how much you think school might be a factor in the findings, and whether the study was created with school in mind.

-=-everything from how bad it is for their socialization skills-=-

How new are these studies, about socialization, please?  What kinds of games?

 -=-to how unhealthy it is for their health.  -=-

Unhealthy for health?  Be more specific.

-=- It's can cause major vision problems-=-

What is “it,” please?
My mom thought reading without good light would cause major vision problems.  Her own solution was not to read, but she needed glasses in her 30’s, and I was 50 before I needed prescription glasses (used “reading glasses” from the time I was 40, after reading LOTS… but many 40-yr-old women need glasses, at 40… simple reading glasses, usually, whether they read a lot with good or bad light or didn’t read).

-=-it changes the way the brain develops-=-

“It” what?  Changes the way the brain develops in what way?  Please cite a study.

-=-there are problems from the radiation the devices send out, the list goes on and on. -=-

What “list” is this?

I’m not being rhetorical. I do want you to respond to these questions.

Sandra, listowner








Sandra Dodd

You didn’t do this.  You brought blog links

 
-=-There are many studies regarding the ill effects of all this technology for children and teens (and adults)-=-

Please bring a link to one of the studies you’ve read.  Not a blog post saying there was a study, but an actual study, scientifically conducted, please.
And when you do, please add a note about how much you think school might be a factor in the findings, and whether the study was created with school in mind.

You didn’t answer any of my questions.

-=-
Here is an actual study:
-=-

That is not a study.  That is some graphs and statistics taken from two surveys.
A scientific study is a peer-reviewed study in which the subjects don’t know what is being sought, by the researchers, where one group is observed in comparison to a control group, so that the question being examined is isolated from the background factors.    A study should follow the scientific method.

That is not a link to “a study.”

-=-I'm sure my post caused some upset, it is not what I intended.-=-
I’m not the least bit upset.  When someone chooses to come here and share mainstream advice, some of them learn from the responses. Some didn’t come here to learn anything, and they will either leave or be removed from the group for not being interested in radical unschooling.    But in EVERY case, others reading DO learn.  They see opposing views, and explanations for why someone WOULD control and limit children, and it will help them clarify what they believe about what they want to do and why.

-=-Everyone has their own decisions to make.  -=-

Many people join this discussion in order to read in-depth discussions of how and why radical unschooling works well.  That’s a decision they made.  And if I let the discussion open up to include non-scientific, fear-based advice, and fundamentalist Christian sin-based advice, I will not be providing the discussion I set out to provide over 13 years ago.

Sandra

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

<<<<<<<<<<< I just wonder if we went back to connecting and investing in community that maybe it would benefit everyone>>>>

 Why do you think technology gets in the way of that? I think it is quite the opposite.
Just this last month I have been trying to give a bit to some people that needed or some causes  that are important to me.
I have seen and see every day how much technology helps giving back to the community.

A family close to here lost all their belongings in a fire. Gigi and I grabbed a few of her toys to give to the two little girls as they lost all their toys.

A couple families online are having difficulties and we were able to send a little bit. A couple friends  got together online ( we are online friends) and we are doing something nice to people that are wonderful and deserving. It is all because of technology.

I do a lot for the community thanks to technology. I would say it is the opposite. I have given much more to others because of technology not despite.
 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Sunday, January 11, 2015 11:42 AM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:


OOps. Sorry for the ridiculous Sandra.
I apologize. Not my best moment as I know you do not like the word.
It aggravated me to read the study and their conclusion.
Sorry again!
 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Sunday, January 11, 2015 11:40 AM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:


I read the study.

It is pretty ridiculous

Two groups of kids from the same school.

One group gets send to an awesome week at a camp doing very cool stuff.

One group is kept at school doing the same old thing.

The group that goes to camp makes less than a point  less errors than before.
It is laughable! Really. Look at their chart.

 Incredible how they can come up with a conclusion like that .

Plus causation is not the same thing as correlation.

People really need to read the studies  and not just the articles that spout their conclusions.
 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Sunday, January 11, 2015 11:23 AM, "Nicola McCray nicolamccray@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
I'm sure my post caused some upset, it is not what I intended. Everyone has their own decisions to make.  I've just noticed some sad things going on with all of this technology and thought maybe others felt the same way.  I free-school my children, they do not use technology - we have a  dvd player and watch dvd's once in a while.  I find that for us being in nature and participating in the activities around us is what works for our family.  I understand everyone is different, guess I just feel concerned that children are growing up so disconnected, it really bothers me that adults are so disconnected too.  Seems alien to me that when I am at a restaurant or somewhere there are families not speaking and everyone is on their devices - even babies are given an ipad to keep them occupied.  I just wonder if we went back to connecting and investing in community that maybe it would benefit everyone.  Just a thought.

Here are some articles, etc.  regarding the use of technology for children.  



 
This is an article written by Physicians

Here is an actual study:

American Academy of Pediatrics:




http://movingtolearn.ca/2014/ten-reasons-why-hand-held-devices-should-be-banned-for-children-under-the-age-of-12
 


On Sunday, January 11, 2015 9:03 AM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
-=-There are many studies regarding the ill effects of all this technology for children and teens (and adults)-=-

Please bring a link to one of the studies you’ve read.  Not a blog post saying there was a study, but an actual study, scientifically conducted, please.
And when you do, please add a note about how much you think school might be a factor in the findings, and whether the study was created with school in mind.

-=-everything from how bad it is for their socialization skills-=-

How new are these studies, about socialization, please?  What kinds of games?

 -=-to how unhealthy it is for their health.  -=-

Unhealthy for health?  Be more specific.

-=- It's can cause major vision problems-=-

What is “it,” please?
My mom thought reading without good light would cause major vision problems.  Her own solution was not to read, but she needed glasses in her 30’s, and I was 50 before I needed prescription glasses (used “reading glasses” from the time I was 40, after reading LOTS… but many 40-yr-old women need glasses, at 40… simple reading glasses, usually, whether they read a lot with good or bad light or didn’t read).

-=-it changes the way the brain develops-=-

“It” what?  Changes the way the brain develops in what way?  Please cite a study.

-=-there are problems from the radiation the devices send out, the list goes on and on. -=-

What “list” is this?

I’m not being rhetorical. I do want you to respond to these questions.

Sandra, listowner










Nicola McCray

How easily things get misconstrewed online.  I am not saying all technology is evil.  Just saying I think that too much is too much and that it can easily be misused and have detrimental effects on children - that is true.  I don't "control" what my children do - they are free to choose what they enjoy and I feel lucky and very happy that they choose nature and learning in their own way.  I am personally relived that they do not rely on technology and if by chance someday they choose to investigate technology that will be their choice and I trust that they will set healthy limits.  However, if I felt it was unhealthy I would step in and set limits.  It's the same as anything - if it's not beneficial to our children we as parents step in and set limits.  

This was my first post to this group and I did not realize it was a technology oriented group -  it is apparent I have offended some of you and that was not my intention.  Guess I thought there were others that felt the way I did or at least we could learn things from having different thoughts and feelings.  




On Sunday, January 11, 2015 10:40 AM, "BRIAN POLIKOWSKY polykowholsteins@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
I read the study.

It is pretty ridiculous

Two groups of kids from the same school.

One group gets send to an awesome week at a camp doing very cool stuff.

One group is kept at school doing the same old thing.

The group that goes to camp makes less than a point  less errors than before.
It is laughable! Really. Look at their chart.

 Incredible how they can come up with a conclusion like that .

Plus causation is not the same thing as correlation.

People really need to read the studies  and not just the articles that spout their conclusions.
 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Sunday, January 11, 2015 11:23 AM, "Nicola McCray nicolamccray@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
I'm sure my post caused some upset, it is not what I intended. Everyone has their own decisions to make.  I've just noticed some sad things going on with all of this technology and thought maybe others felt the same way.  I free-school my children, they do not use technology - we have a  dvd player and watch dvd's once in a while.  I find that for us being in nature and participating in the activities around us is what works for our family.  I understand everyone is different, guess I just feel concerned that children are growing up so disconnected, it really bothers me that adults are so disconnected too.  Seems alien to me that when I am at a restaurant or somewhere there are families not speaking and everyone is on their devices - even babies are given an ipad to keep them occupied.  I just wonder if we went back to connecting and investing in community that maybe it would benefit everyone.  Just a thought.

Here are some articles, etc.  regarding the use of technology for children.  



 
This is an article written by Physicians

Here is an actual study:

American Academy of Pediatrics:




http://movingtolearn.ca/2014/ten-reasons-why-hand-held-devices-should-be-banned-for-children-under-the-age-of-12
 


On Sunday, January 11, 2015 9:03 AM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
-=-There are many studies regarding the ill effects of all this technology for children and teens (and adults)-=-

Please bring a link to one of the studies you’ve read.  Not a blog post saying there was a study, but an actual study, scientifically conducted, please.
And when you do, please add a note about how much you think school might be a factor in the findings, and whether the study was created with school in mind.

-=-everything from how bad it is for their socialization skills-=-

How new are these studies, about socialization, please?  What kinds of games?

 -=-to how unhealthy it is for their health.  -=-

Unhealthy for health?  Be more specific.

-=- It's can cause major vision problems-=-

What is “it,” please?
My mom thought reading without good light would cause major vision problems.  Her own solution was not to read, but she needed glasses in her 30’s, and I was 50 before I needed prescription glasses (used “reading glasses” from the time I was 40, after reading LOTS… but many 40-yr-old women need glasses, at 40… simple reading glasses, usually, whether they read a lot with good or bad light or didn’t read).

-=-it changes the way the brain develops-=-

“It” what?  Changes the way the brain develops in what way?  Please cite a study.

-=-there are problems from the radiation the devices send out, the list goes on and on. -=-

What “list” is this?

I’m not being rhetorical. I do want you to respond to these questions.

Sandra, listowner








semajrak@...

<<That's great that you feel that way, I do not.>>

I sincerely hope you never use this phrase when communicating with any of your children.  It's a sure way to let them be clear that you don't really care what they feel.  Your point of view is all that matters to you.  That phrase and that attitude will create distance rather than bridge interests and points of view.

Another sure way to put a halt to the potential for true communication is to state absolutes.  I use to do this often.  I want to challenge some of your absolutes.  

<<there is no replacement for personal conversations, eye contact and hugs.>>

I think Stephen Hawking might disagree with you.  If it wasn't for technology he wouldn't have been able to live the life he lived and make the contributions he made that help us understand that beautiful natural world you and I both love so much.

<<Anyone who has been hiking in nature knows that it is much better to feel the earth under your feet, see the flowers in bloom and hear the sounds of nature rather than play a video game or watch something online about nature.>>

I've been an avid hiker and outdoorslady since my mid-twenties.  I've hiked the rockies, kayaked both the pacific and atlantic oceans (saw a whale surface in front of me once!), swam in a glacier-fed lake (burr!), walked slippery slopes, rock climbed, backpacked and more.  I don't do as much as I used to, but I still love and take great pleasure in being in nature.  I don't value exploring nature more than exploring technology, however.  I even find that one can fuel interest in another.  I don't believe it's better to feel the earth under my feet than it is to snowboard in a virtual reality world using an oculus rift.  They both bring me very much joy.

<<No matter where technology takes us, it will always be the authentic experience  that truly matters.>> 

I'm not sure what you mean here.  For me, exploring technology *is* one of many authentic experiences that matter to me because it, along with other experiences, brings me joy and improves my life.  If we are talking about what is healthy...joy is healthy, a positive outlook on one's life is healthy, gratitude for our experiences, whatever they may be, is healthy.   

<<I am quite certain that when people look back on their lives they will not think - oh wish I would have texted more, or wish I would have played more video games.>>

How can you be so certain?  This is an honest question, not facetious.  Really.  How?  What about video game developers?  They might wish they could have played a bit more.  Just like Mother Teresa might have wished she could help one more person.  I don't know.  But I can imagine that when that day comes, I'll wish I could do more of anything I loved to do and took pride in.  Maybe *I* will wish could play just one more game with my husband and my son.  If I was to find out tomorrow that I only had one day left, I'm pretty darn sure I would choose to spend it playing games and laughing with the two of them.  Tears me up to think about, actually.

Karen James

Joyce Fetteroll

> On Jan 11, 2015, at 12:15 PM, Nicola McCray nicolamccray@... wrote:

*** That's great that you feel that way, I do not. ***

It's not feeling. It's not opinion from reading studies on schooled kids. It's personal experience.

What *experience* do you have with radically unschooled kids?

Without a control group you can't tell whether the effects you fear are caused by technology or something else.

Radical unschooling families *are* the control group -- that researchers don't know about. By removing school and replacing conventional parenting with relationship building, these effects people fear disappear. It's so much easier to see that the bad effects are kids reacting like *humans* do to control and disrespect. When that control and disrespect are replaced with support, the effects disappear.

*** I see children and adults that cannot maintain eye contact ***
*** I hear adults and children that cannot have an actual conversation face to face. ***

Radically unschooled kids and adults?

*** Anyone who has been hiking in nature knows that it is much better to
feel the earth under your feet, see the flowers in bloom and hear the sounds
of nature rather than play a video game or watch something online about nature. ***

Meredith might come along and say otherwise based on how disrespected she felt by her family's insistence that she was wrong for preferring books over outdoor activities the rest of the family preferred.

I've had a lifetime of experience with outdoors and technology. During the summer I go for a walk in the woods everyday. But I'd really rather be at home with my computer writing, reading, watching stories.

It's very helpful to unschooling -- to supporting kids in exploring *their* interests -- to not be so certain that your preferences are everyone's preferences.

Joyce

semajrak@...

<<Do you think that all of this technology is good for the environment?>>

Yes.  I do, in some ways.  No.  I don't in other ways.  

Greater digital storing capability means more digital storing, which could mean less paper usage.  That could mean less trees cut down for paper that is only going to be read and moved to recycling to be made into more paper, using more resources, creating more pollution.  Advances in alternative energy will more than likely help reduce our dependency on fossil fuel.  Since burning fossil fuel is considered on of the greatest contributions to global warming, I might consider that a plus.  Our advances in engineering spaces, devices, chips, etc will allow us to live more efficiently and, likely, as a consequence for many, more simply.  Technology can allow us to retrieve water from air like the redwoods do, making it possible for more people to have access to fresh water, making it possible to reduce competition for resources, making it possible to reduce conflict, making it possible to reduce our need for mass weapons.  That's a stretch, but it could happen.   

It's not a yes or no question.  I don't presume to know the future.  I don't presume to know what's good and right for the world.  I try my best to make informed decisions day to day, starting with my son, my husband, my friends and my community.  When my choices prove harmful, I do my best to make better choices next time.  That's what I can do.  That's all I can know for certain because I have proven to myself that it works.

Karen James.

Joyce Fetteroll

> On Jan 11, 2015, at 12:15 PM, Nicola McCray nicolamccray@... wrote:

*** Also, if nobody stops to think about the implications of technology then what does that say about our society? ***

I don't know of a group of people who are *more* thoughtful about technology than the people here. The discussion of what is actually observed to happen with schooled and unschooled kids and why has been going on for 20 years. This is real research.

You, on the other hand, are repeating back just a selection of ideas that support your fears. You aren't questioning the foundation of those ideas. Fearing technology is causing ill effects without a way to isolate the effects from other things that might be causing the effects is exactly how ancient man came to decide that gods were responsible for crop successes and failures.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

Before I read the rest of Karen’s wonderful post, I had a response in mind, so I’m going to put it here anyway. :-)

-=-If I wasn't paying close attention, what my son does might also look a lot like sitting in one spot for long periods of time, only to get up for food and water.  But because I do pay attention, and because I do get involved, I see so much more than that.  I can easily list what I see, but that might not help you find what you need to see to understand your own son better.  Look closely.  Look generously.  Look wide, as though you are on a open plain with nothing obstructing your view.  The more you look, the more you will see.  -=-

If someone critical of computers observed me at a distance for a week, they might say that I carry my computer with me wherever I am at the house, that I check it as soon as I wake up, and before I got to bed, that I will sit for hours, forgetting to eat, just looking at that computer.

Those who know how Holly got to India, and that plans changed so that she needed to leave early and that now she’s in England will likely know that all the flight arrangements, scheduling and “human contact” (we were humans, and in contact, though we were too far apart to touch) were happening in and by that computer.

Those who know that Kirby is planning to move back to New Mexico will know that he’s looking for apartments and possible jobs by computer, and our plans to help him move are happening by phone and computer.

Marty’s life and ours has connected more physically, but he’s also in town.  Keith and I were at his house yesterday—party prep, and later for the party.  But we checked on what was needed and when were good times by messages, on a phone with a screen.

But even without thinking of my kids, forget them.
Someone who reads here, or at the facebook group “Radical Unschooling Info,” who uses my website sometimes, who read Just Add Light and Stir,” or who reads my column in The Homeschooler magazine would know that ALL of that comes from keyboard input, photo organization, archiving good quotes and keeping track of who wrote what when and where.  I use html, straight up, for my blogs and sites, so someone who said I was “just writing,” if they heard me clicking away on the keyboard might not even be the sort of person who understands at all about coding.  

What someone sees at a distance is often wrong.  “Smart kids” at school have forever disparaged athletes.  It’s because through the library window, football looks like just running back and forth, to them.    People who don’t care about geography, history, ships, planes and the background of letter-writing might think that stamp collection is just sorting through little pieces of paper.  

Rather than share ignorant opinions of what is happening at a distance, it’s excellent when unschoolers do, as Karen described, and know their children close up.  They watch them play sports and learn more about it.  They see what they want to do at the library and help them do it.  They look things up with them, or for them, about the stamps they find or inherit or see in a museum or online.  They know about the video games they’re playing, and either play with them, or find them resources to make their gaming experience richer.

Sandra