asyahaikin@...

My son just turned 11, and he really likes video games that create a realistic environment.  He just started playing Grand Theft Auto 5.  I am finding that the graphic nature of the game and the sexual jokes (which he repeats to me without quite getting them) really bother me.  I understand why he is interested in the game - it's for all the realistic action he can engage in.  He tries to avoid the more "sexual" parts of the game, as they don't really interest him, and, also bother him a bit. He has already seen a lot of this game on Youtube.  I try to sit with him and watch him playing, but really find it difficult to tolerate for more than a few minutes.  My husband is not into these kinds of games either.  My son thinks it is the best game in the world, but I can't get rid of the feeling that it is somehow damaging for to him. It almost makes me physically sick to think of him playing it. I would really appreciate people's experiences and perspectives on that.


Thanks,

Asya


Sandra Dodd

-=- I understand why he is interested in the game-=-

Let him play without the added stress of your discomfort.
I'm glad you asked.  I hope lots of people will be able to soothe you.

He's at home, not hurting anyone or anything.  Don't jump up and let it be hurting you.

Sandra

Kari

My kids (11,9 and 6) play this game, and it is the game that convinced me video games are art – the dialogue in particular is funny and so clever. I found that after exploring the game for a bit, they tended to stay away from the sex scenes and stick to supping up their cars (which is really the modern equivalent of paper dolls or something along those lines) or doing lots of driving missions. I also found that they have a decent sense of what bothers them. For example, two of them didn't mind the torture scene, but one of my kids and their 13-year old friend opts to leave the room when that scene comes on.

However, I would love to hear what some people have to say about "dealing with" the sex jokes from this game or any other source. I have a pretty crass sense of humor, but they push right past my comfort levels, and I have a hard time with that. I feel at times, I spend way too much time saying "don't say that" or "that's too far" or "share that with your friends instead of me" and policing them for the thoughts/ideas/jokes they pick up from media was not my intention... 

Kari


-----Original Message-----
From: Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]>
To: AlwaysLearning <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, Jan 3, 2015 10:48 am
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] "Mature" Video Games

 
-=- I understand why he is interested in the game-=-

Let him play without the added stress of your discomfort.
I'm glad you asked.  I hope lots of people will be able to soothe you.

He's at home, not hurting anyone or anything.  Don't jump up and let it be hurting you.

Sandra

Sylvia Woodman

I'm so glad you asked this question.  I've been thinking about this quite a bit as well.  My son is 8 1/2 and he also would very much like Grand Theft Auto 5 but I've been hesitating to get it for him.  

He has played a number of FPS games but those seem to be more sci-fi fantasy games.  GTA5 seems to be a different kind of game.  More of a sandbox game than one with a "set" story line like Halo.

I guess my question for you is, have you watched any of the walk through videos for the game on YouTube?  So far it has consistently paid off for me to do my own research wherever possible, rather than relying on anecdotal reports from people who are not unschooling and may not value video games as the fantastic learning resource that they are.

Sylvia

On Sat, Jan 3, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

-=- I understand why he is interested in the game-=-


Let him play without the added stress of your discomfort.
I'm glad you asked.  I hope lots of people will be able to soothe you.

He's at home, not hurting anyone or anything.  Don't jump up and let it be hurting you.

Sandra


Sunnyoneof1@...

Mine loves the game for the reason of making cars then driving them off things and drifting them etc. He loves that when he finds an unusual car he goes home and makes it on GTA. He is 14 so he is a little older, but I have been ok with him playing mature games for some time. He is not a fan of cussing so he turns the sound down or off in parts that are bad. He knows it is just a game and I think it sharpens his skills for many things and encourages him to do research on how to play and beat levels. 

He has lots of homeschool friends that play with him as well. We have gotten to know some really neat kids as they play together everyday. It took him a little bit to find kids that were more like him, and when he plays with adults they have been really good at understanding he is young so they keep it appropriate. (I meet them online and chat with them sometimes too) He has gotten really good at beating games that we get new so they usually don't keep him too occupied once he knows how to beat them easily. He does research and shows me things he finds that are good about game playing. I grew up where we left the house early am and came home at dark, which is do different but so are the times we live in. Try not to stress, where else can you dress all crazy, drive like a mad person, build your car just the way you want it and have your friends hop in your zeppelin and go while shooting off fireworks.... lol! Hope this helps, Cheryl

Tam Palmer

==the sexual jokes (which he repeats to me without quite getting them)==

My eight year old will do this sometimes, he knows I'm a safe person to do that with, and he trusts me to let him know (in a lighthearted way, with a laugh and a wink, or similar, no shame) that it's not a joke to share with his grandparents. He's done the same with swearing from YouTube videos and things like that since he was pretty young. He doesn't want to upset anyone, and likes to know (not in an overt way, but just generally) what's appropriate for what situation with which people. He has a really good sense now of who it's appropriate to say things like that in front of (me, certain friends, on his PC in his room) and has no desire to say them in front of anyone else (eg his dad, grandparents, other adults who might be offended or find it inappropriate.)

He and my 6 year old love GTA V, they like using cheat codes to get good vehicles and go and explore the map, and last week were trying to navigate a glitch in the programming to fly under the landscape and access a secret lab. There's a lot of fun stuff you can do on the game!

Tam


semajrak@...

<<My son thinks it is the best game in the world, but I can't get rid of the feeling that it is somehow damaging for to him.>>

I can completely understand how you feel.  I felt the same way about this particular game and a couple others.  But I've had the fortunate opportunity to meet some really great kids who love these games, enjoy playing with all of the extreme features in the safe environment provided by the game, and see the humour in the game for what it is. Sometimes I see some of the language gets played out away from the game, but it's still play, and it's still valuable in their learning to understand who they are and how they fit into the world around them.  They seem to clearly understand the difference between their play and true social interactions.

My son hasn't wanted to play this particular game yet, although he does like Garry's Mod, which has some similar play and mature content.  He does watch Grand Theft videos on Youtube.  He has watched friends play the game a bit.  He doesn't care for the sexual content and he prefers a first person shooter game with more of a story. Here at home, we've played the card game Cards Against Humanity. That has been a ton of fun (while pushing some comfort levels for me and my husband), and gives us an opportunity to play with and talk about (in a light way) some of the potentially more serious situations in life.  I really love that.  There are some shows on Adult Swim that Ethan enjoys, that give us a similar opportunity.  It's so valuable, in my opinion and experience so far.

One thing I've noticed about my son, is that he rarely chooses to engage in things that make him uncomfortable.  The other thing I've noticed, is that information is helpful for him in deciding what he does want to engage in.  Knowing this about him, I can relax and better support his explorations.  

If I hear him talking about something I know (or suspect) he doesn't fully understand, I'll fill him in privately.  Not going into a ton of detail if it's far beyond his age.  Not to shame him or make feel embarrassed.  Rather, to give him the information I know he prefers to have, so that he can choose how he wants to interact with people.  I've also asked him to be mindful of his audience.  He does curse sometimes.  He does say things at home that some people might find inappropriate.  But, from what I've seen, he makes pretty respectful choices when he's with friends and family and out in the world in general.  

I like that our son can be more free at home.  I do have boundaries.  I don't want to be cursed at, although it's never happened yet.  Doug (my husband) and I do not speak to each other that way, so I think that helps Ethan get a good sense for how he can express himself in a more exuberant way without directing it toward a person hurtfully.  Doug and I both do curse from time to time ourselves.  We're also kind of crass occasionally too.  For us both, it's fun, and we wouldn't do it if we knew it made anyone feel uncomfortable.  For me at least, it's a relief to be a little goofy and a little naughty (for lack of a better word).  It feels good.  It feels playful.  I'm glad I can do so and still be loved and trusted for the overall decent person I know I am.  I want to give Ethan that same consideration.  I think he appreciates that too.

Karen James.

Teri DeMarco

One of my sons, 8, plays GTA 5.  He does not like the inappropriate content and tends to avoid missions, if he can, that would put him in the strip club or otherwise unless they are required.  I dialog with him about the stuff I see when I sit and watch, usually when he’s not using GTA.  (misogyny, sexual content).   His latest project has been to find the cheat codes on line and use them to get helicopters, cars, invincibility, etc. and his play is very goal oriented as he likes to finish missions to collect money so he can buy new guns/gear.  He does not like the sexual content and really tries to power through those scenes quickly.  I trust my son to let me know if something is bothering him in the game.  I periodically ask about his game experiences when he’s doing other things.  My other son, also 8, has no interest in playing because he views the whole game as inappropriate.

We were introduced to GTA when my son was watching YouTube videos of the game.  We reacted poorly at the time, asking him not to watch those videos and he essentially watched the videos out of our purview after that, so all I did was push my son underground. I decided that it was much more important that we allow these and accept it as part of his interests.  As a result, I was granted the ability to dialog about the words, ideas and situations that were presented.  A much better scenario for us.  

When we have certain friends/families over, I ask my kids to find other games to play or to be aware of the YouTube videos they watch.  This has not been a problem and they willingly comply.

We also have Call of Duty, Assassins Creed and Far Cry 4 these games are more straight violence and gore, less misogyny.  I think, for me, watching my son play and realizing his goals in the game has been a great opportunity.

Cheers

Teri D
_____________________
Teri DeMarco
Mom to Wyatt & Cole (8), Emily (6)


"As we get older and our kids grow up, we eventually come to realize that all the big things in our lives are really the direct result of how we've handled all the little things." —Pam Sorooshian, June 4, 2007"

asyahaikin@...

I really appreciate everyone's responses.  I am trying to be more accepting of the fact that my son enjoys things that I don't.  After all, as he pointed out, I've never been a boy!

Asya

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

When my son was 7 or 8  he wanted to Grand Theft Auto. I had already  been doing a lot of research and most of all I was has been very supportive of my son's gaming and done a lot of gaming and exploring of games with him by then.

I knew not to be afraid or worried of Grand Theft Auto.
My son loves to share his gaming with me, even more then!
So he wanted me to watch him play and play the game.

I am squeamish about guns and  more into other type of gaming . But I sat there and watched him kill people and run them over and be all wild  . Then he gave the controller and let me tell you something: It was the most fun I have ever ever had killing people on a game.

It was so so much fun. IT was nothing like I thought it was going to be. I totally got it ! I was amazed ! I never in a million years would have understood from watching videos or someone play.

 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 




On Saturday, January 3, 2015 4:25 PM, "Teri DeMarco teri@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
One of my sons, 8, plays GTA 5.  He does not like the inappropriate content and tends to avoid missions, if he can, that would put him in the strip club or otherwise unless they are required.  I dialog with him about the stuff I see when I sit and watch, usually when he’s not using GTA.  (misogyny, sexual content).   His latest project has been to find the cheat codes on line and use them to get helicopters, cars, invincibility, etc. and his play is very goal oriented as he likes to finish missions to collect money so he can buy new guns/gear.  He does not like the sexual content and really tries to power through those scenes quickly.  I trust my son to let me know if something is bothering him in the game.  I periodically ask about his game experiences when he’s doing other things.  My other son, also 8, has no interest in playing because he views the whole game as inappropriate.

We were introduced to GTA when my son was watching YouTube videos of the game.  We reacted poorly at the time, asking him not to watch those videos and he essentially watched the videos out of our purview after that, so all I did was push my son underground. I decided that it was much more important that we allow these and accept it as part of his interests.  As a result, I was granted the ability to dialog about the words, ideas and situations that were presented.  A much better scenario for us.  

When we have certain friends/families over, I ask my kids to find other games to play or to be aware of the YouTube videos they watch.  This has not been a problem and they willingly comply.

We also have Call of Duty, Assassins Creed and Far Cry 4 these games are more straight violence and gore, less misogyny.  I think, for me, watching my son play and realizing his goals in the game has been a great opportunity.

Cheers

Teri D
_____________________
Teri DeMarco
Mom to Wyatt & Cole (8), Emily (6)


"As we get older and our kids grow up, we eventually come to realize that all the big things in our lives are really the direct result of how we've handled all the little things." —Pam Sorooshian, June 4, 2007"


Sandra Dodd

I don't think Alex has watched her son kill anyone, though she wrote that she had.


-=-But I sat there and watched him kill people and run them over and be all wild-=-
DID he run over people?


Here's a test of my theory:

http://www.dailygames.com/games/billy-grahams-bible-blaster.html

This is a "real" video game from The Simpsons.
It's a "first person shooter." After the ad, click on the name of the game ("Bible Blaster").
After you shoot Bibles at heathens, you will get a score. To play again, click "close" (upper right).

Try it a few times, and see whether you were virtuous, whether any heathens were converted, and whether you feel guilty about shooting Bibles.

Sandra

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Nope. Not in real life. It was in the game. They were pixels. MY son knows the difference much better than I did.
I was still squeamish and  cringing.

But once I tried it was so different. I cannot even hold a real gun I am so afraid. But video games have no real guns and you don't really shoot people.

And man it was fun :)

 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Sunday, January 4, 2015 12:44 PM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
I don't think Alex has watched her son kill anyone, though she wrote that she had.

-=-But I sat there and watched him kill people and run them over and be all wild-=-
DID he run over people?

Here's a test of my theory:

http://www.dailygames.com/games/billy-grahams-bible-blaster.html

This is a "real" video game from The Simpsons.
It's a "first person shooter." After the ad, click on the name of the game ("Bible Blaster").
After you shoot Bibles at heathens, you will get a score. To play again, click "close" (upper right).

Try it a few times, and see whether you were virtuous, whether any heathens were converted, and whether you feel guilty about shooting Bibles.

Sandra


BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

 My son loves those games. They are not the only type of games he likes.
He loves stealth games, and RPG's and so much more.

He is 12. This past fall I was outside  in my back steps and he was with me and I took a false step and crashed in the hard cement. This kid jumped down all worried and helped me up to my feet.
He pulled me up and checked that I was OK.

My daughter would have probably laughed and though it was funny. Maybe. She is 8. But he is older and has more awareness that I could have been hurt.

We live in a dairy farm and my son has been driving the gator  for many years now and he is very safe conscious about it.
This past fall Gigi, his sister, started driving. Always with an adult.

Gigi wanted to started getting the cows in from the hilly pasture. Daniel, my son, went every single time wtih her as a passenger to keep her safe. It was very very sweet of him to stop everything to do it :)

So  Grand Theft Auto does not make one violent or  worse :)
 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Sunday, January 4, 2015 1:16 PM, "BRIAN POLIKOWSKY polykowholsteins@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
Nope. Not in real life. It was in the game. They were pixels. MY son knows the difference much better than I did.
I was still squeamish and  cringing.

But once I tried it was so different. I cannot even hold a real gun I am so afraid. But video games have no real guns and you don't really shoot people.

And man it was fun :)

 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Sunday, January 4, 2015 12:44 PM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
I don't think Alex has watched her son kill anyone, though she wrote that she had.

-=-But I sat there and watched him kill people and run them over and be all wild-=-
DID he run over people?

Here's a test of my theory:

http://www.dailygames.com/games/billy-grahams-bible-blaster.html

This is a "real" video game from The Simpsons.
It's a "first person shooter." After the ad, click on the name of the game ("Bible Blaster").
After you shoot Bibles at heathens, you will get a score. To play again, click "close" (upper right).

Try it a few times, and see whether you were virtuous, whether any heathens were converted, and whether you feel guilty about shooting Bibles.

Sandra




bobcollier@...

My son has been playing adult games since he was seven or eight and I've played them with him, including the original Grand Theft Auto, Saints Row, Gears of War, Call of Duty etc. I can recall one game I chose not to play, it was about mercenaries - might have actually been called Mercenaries - because there was a place in the story where I was required to round up and shoot civilians just for the heck of it and I thought that was inappropriate. That's the only issue I can think of with any of the 'shoot 'em ups; I've played in the past..

My son has Grand Theft Auto V though I haven't seen him play it. Now he is actually over 18 that was his choice to make. 

In the meantime, I signed a petition on Change.org that successfully persuaded two of Australia's major retailers to withdraw GTA5 from sale. As far as I was concerned, it crossed a line into gratuitous nastiness.

I'll ask my son for his thoughts on the game when I see him.

Bob




Sandra Dodd

-=-So  Grand Theft Auto does not make one violent or  worse :)-=-

Having parents who say "no" a lot is known to cause children to be sneaky, and needy.
Having parents who are over-reactionary is known to cause sneakiness and lack of trust (trust in the children, of the parents).

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-In the meantime, I signed a petition on Change.org that successfully persuaded two of Australia's major retailers to withdraw GTA5 from sale.-=-

Have you read any follow-up on whether that caused the game company to lose any revenue?
Sometimes such action backfires, in advertising and creating the illusion of scarcity.

Sandra

Kari


>He has played a number of FPS games but those seem to be more sci-fi fantasy games.  GTA5 seems to be a different kind of game.  More of a sandbox game than one with a "set" story line like Halo.<

I believe it is a third-person shooter game, and it does have a story line, but it is also a sandbox game. I believe with sandbox games, the developers have to sacrifice detail and quality in favor of options, and this game works hard to incorporate both, which is why it's so stunning. According to my kids, the appeal is the sandbox element. Their feeling was that "most" people do a few missions to gain money but then just explore the sandbox. 

The characters are super well developed... for instance, one of them has anger issues and goes to therapy. actually, i think they all have emotional issues... kind of a nice ptsd nod of realism compared to all the media that depicts characters as going through heinous experiences with no emotional repercussions. 

We've had a ton of interesting conversations centered around topics brought up by this game (and other life)...


Kari





-----Original Message-----
From: Sylvia Woodman sylvia057@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]>
To: AlwaysLearning <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, Jan 3, 2015 11:20 am
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] "Mature" Video Games

 
I'm so glad you asked this question.  I've been thinking about this quite a bit as well.  My son is 8 1/2 and he also would very much like Grand Theft Auto 5 but I've been hesitating to get it for him.  

He has played a number of FPS games but those seem to be more sci-fi fantasy games.  GTA5 seems to be a different kind of game.  More of a sandbox game than one with a "set" story line like Halo.

I guess my question for you is, have you watched any of the walk through videos for the game on YouTube?  So far it has consistently paid off for me to do my own research wherever possible, rather than relying on anecdotal reports from people who are not unschooling and may not value video games as the fantastic learning resource that they are.

Sylvia

On Sat, Jan 3, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 
-=- I understand why he is interested in the game-=-

Let him play without the added stress of your discomfort.
I'm glad you asked.  I hope lots of people will be able to soothe you.

He's at home, not hurting anyone or anything.  Don't jump up and let it be hurting you.

Sandra

Rinelle

> -=-In the meantime, I signed a petition on Change.org that successfully
> persuaded two of Australia's major retailers to withdraw GTA5 from
> sale.-=-
> > Have you read any follow-up on whether that caused the game company to
> lose any revenue?
> Sometimes such action backfires, in advertising and creating the illusion
> of scarcity.


I objected to this petition (although there is no official way to do this on Change.org, which is unfortunate). The information contained in the petition (that GTA gave players in game rewards for killing women), is blatantly false. Luckily, the two retailers who withdrew it from sale are not the first place most people go to buy computer games in Australia. :) (And they're still selling older versions of the game, so I don't think it achieved much.)


I haven't personally played GTA, (though I did play the original, very different) but I have watched my husband have many many happy hours playing it with his friends. He does have a personal dislike of few of the more violent scenes in the single player campaign (particularly the torture scene that was mentioned in a previous post), but there is so much more to this game than violence. It's the best and biggest open world game that I've ever seen. It's amazing to watch and see how all the computer controlled players react. There are some amazing videos on YouTube of time lapses, bike tricks, jumps, and scenic drives. It's a whole world to play in, where no one gets actually hurt. Some days it makes me want to play!


Tamara

bobcollier@...

I think anybody who wants to get a copy of GTA5 will be able to get one and the controversy may well make the game more appealing. I doubt the game's producers will lose out financially. Patrick bought his GTA5 on eBay. 

He thinks it's very good and he enjoys playing it. He obviously has a different perception of the aspects I find objectionable. Or perhaps he doesn't notice them - he says all the characters including the female characters are total losers and it's difficult to feel sympathy for any of them. I know he's always been able to differentiate between computer sprites and actual human beings. Perhaps some people are better at that than others.;

Bob

michelle_m29@...

Sandra wrote: 
>Try it a few times, and see whether you were virtuous, whether any heathens were converted, and whether >you feel guilty about shooting Bibles.

I like that comparison, Sandra! Thank for sharing it with the rest of us. I know that when my grandmother was fussing about what she'd heard described as the addictive quality of video games and I was able to compare my son's drive to get to the next level to how she immerses herself in plans for a new house (and what drapes to make and where to put that table and that other chair...and how she'd lie awake late at night redrawing plans in her head) it lessened her concern. 

But that dumb little video game you linked to (which happens to be pretty hard, at least for this Mom with atrophied gaming skills) has launched me on an unsucessful Google Search, trying to figure out the description: 

Help Todd Flanders do some tinker, like his neighbor Bart Simpson. 

What does "do some tinker" mean? Is it an archaic usage for something like tinkering....or a typo?

Michelle 

Janice Casamina

Hello All, Last night, my family watched part of The Human Planet video series. Inuit hunters killed a whale so that they could feed their families. My 3-year-old said sadly, "I don't like killing. Killing is not good." Then my 6-year-old said, "But it's okay when it's pretend, like in video games." Then the 3-year-old responded, "Yeah, but that was real." My 8-year-old was silent, thinking.


All three of my boys were saddened by the killing of the whale even though they have no problem shooting at and exploding all kinds of characters in video games. My boys will leave the room when their uncles are watching mixed marital arts or boxing fights on television, but they have no problem playing or watching fighting games with blood splattering everywhere.


I'm writing to show that even young children can tell the difference between what's real and what's not. I'm not familiar with GTA5, but no matter how violent a game appears to be, we know it's not real. I suppose some people have an easier time making that distinction than others. And it seems to me that when violence on games or television becomes real or scary for a child, he or she is likely to stop playing or watching. By the way, I love reading and learning on this list.


Thank you, Janice Ancheta

Sandra Dodd

-=-Hello All, Last night, my family watched part of The Human Planet video series. Inuit hunters killed a whale so that they could feed their families. My 3-year-old said sadly, "I don't like killing. Killing is not good." Then my 6-year-old said, "But it's okay when it's pretend, like in video games." Then the 3-year-old responded, "Yeah, but that was real." My 8-year-old was silent, thinking. -=-

Maybe someone should have said "That's not killing" (about the video game).

-=-And it seems to me that when violence on games or television becomes real or scary for a child, he or she is likely to stop playing or watching-=-

But your children watched that show.  Is it possible that because it was "my family" and a group activity, that they didn't have as much choice about watching?  Or that it wasn't "violence" so much as hunting for food?

I don't think it's a good idea to tell young children, but there are adults who don't know at all, or kind of know and don't think about, how recently Americans and Canadians killed whales.   I'm not proposing a big research project, but a reminder not to villianize Inuit or Japanese for doing something now that we only fairly recently stopped doing.

"There's no missionary like a convert" is a phrase that means literally what it says, and also extends to the idea that a former smoker might be more against smoking than someone who never smoked, and someone who was once [whatever it is] might speak more vehemently against those who still are [whatever it is].

-=-I'm writing to show that even young children can tell the difference between what's real and what's not. I'm not familiar with GTA5, but no matter how violent a game appears to be, we know it's not real. I suppose some people have an easier time making that distinction than others.-=-

When just one person in a family is still unclear, it seems to me it's most likely to be the mom, who isn't thinking clearly.  Either she has friends who are keeping her scared, or she's looking for dangers to her child, and finding them in her imagination.

I had a cousin who couldn't seem to tell cartoons from live-action TV, even when she was seven or eight.  She was an abuse and neglect case, and possibly fetal alcohol syndrome (which wasn't identified as such until the 1970's, so we just thought she was mean and not very focussed.  

Janice's kids know the difference early, and that's good. :-)

Sandra

Janice Ancheta

Yes, we did point out that the Inuit were hunting for food. One whale can feed their families for months. While killing whales is generally illegal, it is legal to do so using the ancient techniques the Inuit use (at least at the time of filming).

My older two sons continued watching and decided to watch more the next day. They are totally fascinated. My youngest usually plays with me in the next room and runs into the room with the television when he hears an interesting noise, or if he walks by and sees an interesting image on the screen. He will watch for a bit then go back to playing. Perhaps he left the room after the whale scene because some part of it was too scary, or perhaps his activities in the next room were more interesting.

I wonder if some children are being told by adults that the video games they enjoy are real violence. Perhaps parents are telling their children that there is something wrong with them for liking certain types of video games.

Janice

On Jan 6, 2015, at 4:14 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

-=-Hello All, Last night, my family watched part of The Human Planet video series. Inuit hunters killed a whale so that they could feed their families. My 3-year-old said sadly, "I don't like killing. Killing is not good." Then my 6-year-old said, "But it's okay when it's pretend, like in video games." Then the 3-year-old responded, "Yeah, but that was real." My 8-year-old was silent, thinking. -=-


Maybe someone should have said "That's not killing" (about the video game).

-=-And it seems to me that when violence on games or television becomes real or scary for a child, he or she is likely to stop playing or watching-=-

But your children watched that show.  Is it possible that because it was "my family" and a group activity, that they didn't have as much choice about watching?  Or that it wasn't "violence" so much as hunting for food?

I don't think it's a good idea to tell young children, but there are adults who don't know at all, or kind of know and don't think about, how recently Americans and Canadians killed whales.   I'm not proposing a big research project, but a reminder not to villianize Inuit or Japanese for doing something now that we only fairly recently stopped doing.

"There's no missionary like a convert" is a phrase that means literally what it says, and also extends to the idea that a former smoker might be more against smoking than someone who never smoked, and someone who was once [whatever it is] might speak more vehemently against those who still are [whatever it is].

-=-I'm writing to show that even young children can tell the difference between what's real and what's not. I'm not familiar with GTA5, but no matter how violent a game appears to be, we know it's not real. I suppose some people have an easier time making that distinction than others.-=-

When just one person in a family is still unclear, it seems to me it's most likely to be the mom, who isn't thinking clearly.  Either she has friends who are keeping her scared, or she's looking for dangers to her child, and finding them in her imagination.

I had a cousin who couldn't seem to tell cartoons from live-action TV, even when she was seven or eight.  She was an abuse and neglect case, and possibly fetal alcohol syndrome (which wasn't identified as such until the 1970's, so we just thought she was mean and not very focussed.  

Janice's kids know the difference early, and that's good. :-)

Sandra

Megan Valnes

My son received a gift card to a gaming shop for Christmas and we went two days ago to buy his new game. He was searching around and kept landing his eyes on GTA5. He asked me tentatively if he could buy it.  In the past, I've been very hesitant about this game because of the sexuality (my oldest is 10), but this thread had my husband me thinking more deeply about the game. So I said yes and he bought it.

Last night, I played with him. It was wildly fun!  At one point, he did get caught in a strip club, and he and my younger son both ran out of the playroom covering their eyes and I had to navigate the character out of the strip club, but that was just an example of the kids not wanting to play what makes them uncomfortable.  I had a blast driving around, stealing cars, ignoring all traffic laws (or any laws), running from the police, and generally being a wreck less citizen of this virtual world. I think I surprised my kids because I was shouting out loud and giving people within the game the virtual bird :).  

Had it not been for this thread, I don't think we would have had that fun time last night. Thanks for the insight. 

On Tuesday, January 6, 2015, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

-=-Hello All, Last night, my family watched part of The Human Planet video series. Inuit hunters killed a whale so that they could feed their families. My 3-year-old said sadly, "I don't like killing. Killing is not good." Then my 6-year-old said, "But it's okay when it's pretend, like in video games." Then the 3-year-old responded, "Yeah, but that was real." My 8-year-old was silent, thinking. -=-


Maybe someone should have said "That's not killing" (about the video game).

-=-And it seems to me that when violence on games or television becomes real or scary for a child, he or she is likely to stop playing or watching-=-

But your children watched that show.  Is it possible that because it was "my family" and a group activity, that they didn't have as much choice about watching?  Or that it wasn't "violence" so much as hunting for food?

I don't think it's a good idea to tell young children, but there are adults who don't know at all, or kind of know and don't think about, how recently Americans and Canadians killed whales.   I'm not proposing a big research project, but a reminder not to villianize Inuit or Japanese for doing something now that we only fairly recently stopped doing.

"There's no missionary like a convert" is a phrase that means literally what it says, and also extends to the idea that a former smoker might be more against smoking than someone who never smoked, and someone who was once [whatever it is] might speak more vehemently against those who still are [whatever it is].

-=-I'm writing to show that even young children can tell the difference between what's real and what's not. I'm not familiar with GTA5, but no matter how violent a game appears to be, we know it's not real. I suppose some people have an easier time making that distinction than others.-=-

When just one person in a family is still unclear, it seems to me it's most likely to be the mom, who isn't thinking clearly.  Either she has friends who are keeping her scared, or she's looking for dangers to her child, and finding them in her imagination.

I had a cousin who couldn't seem to tell cartoons from live-action TV, even when she was seven or eight.  She was an abuse and neglect case, and possibly fetal alcohol syndrome (which wasn't identified as such until the 1970's, so we just thought she was mean and not very focussed.  

Janice's kids know the difference early, and that's good. :-)

Sandra



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Sandra Dodd

-=-I wonder if some children are being told by adults that the video games they enjoy are real violence.-=-

Do you really wonder?  People come here regularly talking about "violent video games."

-=- Perhaps parents are telling their children that there is something wrong with them for liking certain types of video games.-=-

Yes, and music, movies, board games, hobbies.  But mostly video games, I think.

Unschooling works best when parents accept and support and enjoy and share with their kids.

Janice Ancheta

You're right, Sandra. I don't wonder - I see it and hear it.

Janice

On Jan 6, 2015, at 8:45 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

-=-I wonder if some children are being told by adults that the video games they enjoy are real violence.-=-


Do you really wonder?  People come here regularly talking about "violent video games."

-=- Perhaps parents are telling their children that there is something wrong with them for liking certain types of video games.-=-

Yes, and music, movies, board games, hobbies.  But mostly video games, I think.

Unschooling works best when parents accept and support and enjoy and share with their kids.

Megan Valnes

Correction to my post: that's "reckless" citizen, not wreck less. Sorry about that. And Thanks for the tip, S :).

On Tuesday, January 6, 2015, Janice Ancheta janice_casamina@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

You're right, Sandra. I don't wonder - I see it and hear it.

Janice

On Jan 6, 2015, at 8:45 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

-=-I wonder if some children are being told by adults that the video games they enjoy are real violence.-=-


Do you really wonder?  People come here regularly talking about "violent video games."

-=- Perhaps parents are telling their children that there is something wrong with them for liking certain types of video games.-=-

Yes, and music, movies, board games, hobbies.  But mostly video games, I think.

Unschooling works best when parents accept and support and enjoy and share with their kids.



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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Yep Megan,

Playing it is a lot of fun!! Being someone you would  not be in real life. No consequences as it is all make believe!
So much fun!!

I am glad you sat and played! It is different to sit and watch.You really change your mind and get it when you play it.

 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Tuesday, January 6, 2015 9:51 AM, "Megan Valnes meganvalnes@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
My son received a gift card to a gaming shop for Christmas and we went two days ago to buy his new game. He was searching around and kept landing his eyes on GTA5. He asked me tentatively if he could buy it.  In the past, I've been very hesitant about this game because of the sexuality (my oldest is 10), but this thread had my husband me thinking more deeply about the game. So I said yes and he bought it.

Last night, I played with him. It was wildly fun!  At one point, he did get caught in a strip club, and he and my younger son both ran out of the playroom covering their eyes and I had to navigate the character out of the strip club, but that was just an example of the kids not wanting to play what makes them uncomfortable.  I had a blast driving around, stealing cars, ignoring all traffic laws (or any laws), running from the police, and generally being a wreck less citizen of this virtual world. I think I surprised my kids because I was shouting out loud and giving people within the game the virtual bird :).  

Had it not been for this thread, I don't think we would have had that fun time last night. Thanks for the insight. 

On Tuesday, January 6, 2015, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 
-=-Hello All, Last night, my family watched part of The Human Planet video series. Inuit hunters killed a whale so that they could feed their families. My 3-year-old said sadly, "I don't like killing. Killing is not good." Then my 6-year-old said, "But it's okay when it's pretend, like in video games." Then the 3-year-old responded, "Yeah, but that was real." My 8-year-old was silent, thinking. -=-

Maybe someone should have said "That's not killing" (about the video game).

-=-And it seems to me that when violence on games or television becomes real or scary for a child, he or she is likely to stop playing or watching-=-

But your children watched that show.  Is it possible that because it was "my family" and a group activity, that they didn't have as much choice about watching?  Or that it wasn't "violence" so much as hunting for food?

I don't think it's a good idea to tell young children, but there are adults who don't know at all, or kind of know and don't think about, how recently Americans and Canadians killed whales.   I'm not proposing a big research project, but a reminder not to villianize Inuit or Japanese for doing something now that we only fairly recently stopped doing.

"There's no missionary like a convert" is a phrase that means literally what it says, and also extends to the idea that a former smoker might be more against smoking than someone who never smoked, and someone who was once [whatever it is] might speak more vehemently against those who still are [whatever it is].

-=-I'm writing to show that even young children can tell the difference between what's real and what's not. I'm not familiar with GTA5, but no matter how violent a game appears to be, we know it's not real. I suppose some people have an easier time making that distinction than others.-=-

When just one person in a family is still unclear, it seems to me it's most likely to be the mom, who isn't thinking clearly.  Either she has friends who are keeping her scared, or she's looking for dangers to her child, and finding them in her imagination.

I had a cousin who couldn't seem to tell cartoons from live-action TV, even when she was seven or eight.  She was an abuse and neglect case, and possibly fetal alcohol syndrome (which wasn't identified as such until the 1970's, so we just thought she was mean and not very focussed.  

Janice's kids know the difference early, and that's good. :-)

Sandra


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Julie Alsobrook

With all due respect.  I joined this group to observe the "unshooling community".  I have done that, I have paid close attention to the logic and illogic that I have witnessed here.  I want to take this opportunity to share what you all dissiminate.   It's UNBELIEVABLE to me...that ALL of you have the same view that this is healthy?  REALLY?  That alone is odd.  The fact that I am the ONLY one that says it's not?? Is SCARY.  
I am new to unschooling, granted.  HOWEVER...I do see a VERY FINE LINE here between unschooling and unparenting.  
In reference to what Sandra has commented on regarding the missionary and the convert, and the smoker and the non smoker...both being pretty accurate by the way.  
OF COURSE the convert and non smoker would have a wiser view BECAUSE they have experienced both and can deliniate between healthy and good and non healthy and harmful.  
There is an aire here in this forum off arrogance and ignorance.  There was another comment of children don't need to know that all adults don't know everything.  REALLY?  I've NEVER met an adult. ( and I am in no way a child) that DOES know everything.
MORE than schoolers or unschoolers, Converts or heathens, smokers or non smokers, gamers or non gamers....AT the end of the day ladies and gentlemen. WE are all parents. AND WE all.  Whether you believe it or NOT will stand before a judging God and give an account for WHAT you did with the child or children that HE ENTRUSTED to YOU...Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart. Prov 22:6  This doesn't say. ignore, or let the child train themselves on which way to go...it says..train up the child. We as adults and parents...REALLY do KNOW better than children.  And as a parent of my own children.  I know better for my children than any other parent would know.  None of the conversations have really been geared toward unschooling.  They've been geared toward parenting. or lack thereof.  I came in need of a pioneers experinece of unschooling, and when I missed Sandra Dodd at the Homeschooling Conference I was very excited to learn of this forum.  I don't know if this was your goal..but it seems like somewhere you have all lost your vision to help and impact "UNSCHOOLING"
Good luck to you.  I can see that this is not a good fit for me and my children.
And don't forget what I said about GOD...WE ALL have to stand and give an account one day.  AND YOU WILL STAND ALONE.  Not in a forum with like thinkers...
 
 
In his name,
By his grace,
Julie

Joyce Fetteroll

*** ALL of you have the same view that this is healthy? ***

It's not a view. It's personal experience from years of being with kids who play video games, from playing with them, from talking about games, from talking with other parents about what is observed, discussing why what we see happens.

What unschooling parents have experienced for *years* is that kids who are supported in loving homes who play video games do not adopt the negative values from the video games.

Why do you fear that *your* values are worth less to your child than the values in the video game?

Well, actually I know the answer. It's because of sinful nature. But for some reason our non-fundamentalist children don't seem to have a sinful nature that pulls them towards hurtful values. They prefer the values of their home where people are kind to each other over values of hurting others.

You're *assuming* that we're more in love with unschooling than we are with our children. You're assuming we're oblivious to how horrible our kids will or are turning out.

Many of the people answering here have grown children. My daughter is 23. She's a sweet, thoughtful caring person. A person who used to stomp on cities with her video game Godzilla, whomp other characters in battles, and occasionally shoot characters. In real life she's never stomped on a city or person. She's never whomped or shot anyone. She was treated with kindness and respect -- including respect for her interests in video games. She treats others with respect and kindness.

*** There was another comment of children don't need to know that all adults don't know everything. REALLY? ***

I have no idea what you've summarized there. It doesn't make sense. Can you pull the actual quote?

Joyce