cookiesforthree@...

We are in the process of adopting an almost 4 year old. She's been in the hospital much of her life then with a foster mom who is an rn before she was put in placement with our family. She was with an rn as she is still medically fragile (soft remission from a very aggressive childhood cancer).

I would like some advice on how to respond to her chronic lying. She had invetro drug exposure, massive chemotherapy and radiation, and I can only guess what life was like for her living in the hospital with no mommy and then a very rigid foster mom. I'm guessing her lying is related to transition or possibly organic in nature from all the legal and illegal drugs in her life or even hereditary.

She does seem to have memory issues and trouble retaining simple things like nursery rhymes, number sequences and accusing people of hurting her. She said the foster mom was mean and broke her leg and she needed a cast. The actual truth is that she needed surgery and the hospital casted her leg. Many other lies that daily and just don't make sense (at least to me).

She's young and has experienced so much trama in her lititle life so I expect her to cope with her new, hopefully happy, life with our family and show issues from past tramas. She has been with us for 3 months and I am just being her loving mommy friend so hopefully she will one day trust me.

In the meanwhile.... knowing what you now know, how would you deal with the lying? I'm thinking redirecting but how do I do that and should I address the lies or ignore them for now and see how that works?

Thanks.

Sandra Dodd

-=- then with a foster mom who is an rn-=-

RN meaning “registered nurse”?

Please write things out when you can; there are people from all over the world reading here.

-=-She has been with us for 3 months-=-
And she’s three years old.   
I would let her say anything she wants to for six months or so.  Let her spin out all her feelings and her stories without regard to what is objective truth, for a while, maybe.  Just focus on comfort, food, joy, happiness.  

In a discussion on the facebook discussion Radical Unschooling Info, someone’s asking about a three year old, and someone pointed out that it’s common for kids that age to experiment with what is and isn’t true.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/303347574750/permalink/10152568434239751/

Sandra

cookiesforthree@...

My apologies, rn meaning registered nurse.

Sandra Dodd

There are some things on my site, too, about honesty and younger children and not making things worse.

Why would children lie?  http://sandradodd.com/lies
And that has a link to a 2010 discussion on Always Learning.



chris ester

I would listen, listen, listen and then try to reflect back to her what she said.  This will feel stilted, but it works and will hopefully let her know that you hear her.  A three year old should not be expected to be able to report accurate facts. And the facts aren't really what is important.  What is important is to respect her "take" on the facts of her traumatized life, her feelings about all of the pain.  So when she says that her leg was broken and was in a cast, you say that back to her in warm loving tones.  I would not redirect her from this and other awful memories because this is her way of processing those memories, of making sense of what has happened to her. Redirecting her may make it seem that you do not value her experience of her life.   It will get better, she will talk about these things less and she will talk about happier things eventually.  

She may not remember that her painful leg injury was not inflicted out of meanness, and how would she know?  I doubt that she can fully comprehend what has happened to her in the fog of trauma and loss.  It may be valuable, years from now, for you to keep a journal or scrap books about her life.  As she grows she may periodically need to rehash and re-interpret these events and it may help (with or without a therapist's help) to have these things when she is much older and trying to make sense of vague memories.
chris

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 11:24 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

-=- then with a foster mom who is an rn-=-


RN meaning “registered nurse”?

Please write things out when you can; there are people from all over the world reading here.

-=-She has been with us for 3 months-=-
And she’s three years old.   
I would let her say anything she wants to for six months or so.  Let her spin out all her feelings and her stories without regard to what is objective truth, for a while, maybe.  Just focus on comfort, food, joy, happiness.  

In a discussion on the facebook discussion Radical Unschooling Info, someone’s asking about a three year old, and someone pointed out that it’s common for kids that age to experiment with what is and isn’t true.


Sandra


Sandra Dodd

-=- So when she says that her leg was broken and was in a cast, you say that back to her in warm loving tones. -=-

I wouldn’t do that.
If she has a false memory and someone “says it back,” then it changes from a confused statement by a three year old to the confirmation of someone who is hoping to become a trusted and dependable parent.

I would try not to  do what will make it worse.  I wouldn’t want to solidify a vague memory or an attempt at rationalization.

To a report of a broken leg, it would be less dishonest to say “It must hurt a lot, to have a broken leg.”  That shows the person is listening without it being YES, you DID have a broken leg.

Or “I hope you never have a broken bone again.”
Or “If you get hurt again, we will take good care of you.”

-=-A three year old should not be expected to be able to report accurate facts. And the facts aren't really what is important.  What is important is to respect her "take" on the facts of her traumatized life, -=-

I do agree with that first part.
I balk at the word “respect.”  Hear, accept, let slide…. fine.  But “respect”?  

Big on the horizon here is that the child is three years old.  She will be four soon, and five, and will grow out of and beyond much of what she has now for thought processes and defensive tools.  Some won’t be needed anymore.  Some might be (as the original poster suggested) caused by biochemical realities or by genetics.    But whatever the baseline is, parental response can make it worse or better.

Sandra

chris ester



On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 12:00 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

>>>>>I balk at the word “respect.”  Hear, accept, let slide…. fine.  But “respect”?  <<<<<

Forgive me for a lack of clarity (or a difference in semantics, at least).  When I say "respect", I mean let her have her feelings as they are, not to try to make light of what must have been scary, but, yes, at the same time don't magnify them either!  Another good response might be to point out that her leg is "all better" and that now it doesn't hurt anymore.   Thus, acknowledging her experience, but pointing out something that is also true, but positive.  



>>>>>Big on the horizon here is that the child is three years old.  She will be four soon, and five, and will grow out of and beyond much of what she has now for thought processes and defensive tools.  Some won’t be needed anymore.  Some might be (as the original poster suggested) caused by biochemical realities or by genetics.    But whatever the baseline is, parental response can make it worse or better.

Sandra<<<<<<

I absolutely agree with you that children grow and change and that they all come into life with their own set of traits, etc.  and a parent can either make it worse or make it better.  Hence, why I feel that being mindful as a parent about what a will be most helpful to a child in each moment is so important.   I still wonder why what we do is so "radical"....  Why is it radical to acknowledge that a child is a person that is separate from every other person and so parenting can be partnering with a child in their learning and growth, not molding them into some image out of anyone's mind?
chris

heather diehr

for a little one, so traumatized, i have a hard time with the language of "lying"...

she is desperately trying to make sense of her experience. 

yes yes yes to validating whatever is "true" in what she says, ex: "it hurts to have a broken leg!", etc.

...sent from my iPhone...

On Nov 25, 2014, at 9:00 PM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:

 

-=- So when she says that her leg was broken and was in a cast, you say that back to her in warm loving tones. -=-


I wouldn’t do that.
If she has a false memory and someone “says it back,” then it changes from a confused statement by a three year old to the confirmation of someone who is hoping to become a trusted and dependable parent.

I would try not to  do what will make it worse.  I wouldn’t want to solidify a vague memory or an attempt at rationalization.

To a report of a broken leg, it would be less dishonest to say “It must hurt a lot, to have a broken leg.”  That shows the person is listening without it being YES, you DID have a broken leg.

Or “I hope you never have a broken bone again.”
Or “If you get hurt again, we will take good care of you.”

-=-A three year old should not be expected to be able to report accurate facts. And the facts aren't really what is important.  What is important is to respect her "take" on the facts of her traumatized life, -=-

I do agree with that first part.
I balk at the word “respect.”  Hear, accept, let slide…. fine.  But “respect”?  

Big on the horizon here is that the child is three years old.  She will be four soon, and five, and will grow out of and beyond much of what she has now for thought processes and defensive tools.  Some won’t be needed anymore.  Some might be (as the original poster suggested) caused by biochemical realities or by genetics.    But whatever the baseline is, parental response can make it worse or better.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-I absolutely agree with you that children grow and change and that they all come into life with their own set of traits, etc.  and a parent can either make it worse or make it better.  Hence, why I feel that being mindful as a parent about what a will be most helpful to a child in each moment is so important. -=-

“Helpful in the moment” should be a smaller consideration, for a partner, than helpful to the whole person in the long run, I think.  Depending on the situation, sometimes people need to be all in on “helpful in the moment”—tantrum at grandma’s Thanksgiving, for instance.   But when helpful in this moment in harmful to future moments, it’s not a good idea.

Sandra

Lisa J Celedon

<<Another good response might be to point out that her leg is "all better" and that now it doesn't hurt anymore. >>

That doesn't sound like a very respectful response.

If it doesn't hurt anymore, she knows that better than anyone else could. If it's 'all better', then she knows that better than anyone.

If it still hurts, psychologically, if it's not 'all better', how could she trust a person who says it is?

If you responded that way to an adult friend or spouse, it would be off-putting at best, maybe even annyoing, maybe infuriating, if there is a history of belittling or trivializing the other person's feelings.

It's not a very compassionate response.


Lisa C




Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

K Kissoyan

There's an excellent chapter in "Nurtureshock" by Po Bronson and Ashley Merryman
on kids and lying. Nurtureshock is not on its face an unschooling book, but it is not inconsistent with unschooling, particularly in that its primary focus is fact-based responses to "common knowledge," and it turns a lot of "common knowledge" on its head. It also helps get your head around what to do with new information. Kinda like this list! :)

One of the things that they point out in their analysis is that little kids are literalists, and thus are deeply influenced/affected by all the semi-truths and white lies that swirl around them. In the medicalized and chaotic world your little girl is coming from, her feelings that the world has not been honest with her could be profound, and she could be reflecting this. One example from the book was an almost-6-year-old child who got very angry with his/her (can't remember which) mother for saying something about him being 6 (in reference to what type of game someone else should bring, the mother said "oh, something age-appropriate for a 6-year-old, or something like that). The mother wasn't even thinking about it, and certainly wasn't lying, per se, but the kid called her out because, really, it wasn't true that the child was 6. If your little girl has spent her life fielding half-truths and un-truths (this won't hurt, this will only hurt for a minute, you're safe here, etc. etc.), she may be trying to process now what's the difference between truth and lies, where's the line, what is reality. Does that make sense? 

Also, her need for attention and affirmation is probably profound (my own kids have talked about injuries that they never had, or that were nowhere near as injurious as they would have others believe, and I believe that stems from a desire for connection to the person they're talking to -- Hey! I had that same injury! -- and/or a desire for attention -- Hey! I was wounded! Comfort me! -- and they haven't seen nearly the trauma that your little girl has. Her need for affirmation and comfort and love is probably heartbreakingly deep. 

Anyway, I would read that. They give a lot of good advice about how to address your own language around truth and lying, and how to address it when you see/hear it in your kid. Also a lot of comforting information about why kids lie, and when they lie, and what it says about their development. There is a lot about what your little girl is doing that is completely normal/common/healthy, despite the unique (or, sadly, not unique enough) experiences she has had, and they have good advice for how to address it so as to emphasize that you value truth-telling. And we need to be much more aware of how much adults tend to lie to and around children, and cut it out if we want them to be honest with us. As with all values, you have to live it if you want your kids to believe that you value it. 

Strength, 
Kimberley 

--
“It is paradoxical that many educators and parents still differentiate
between a time for learning and a time for play without seeing the
vital connection between them.”
-- Leo F. Buscaglia

"The better you are at your job, the more you’re rewarded, financially and spiritually, by doing it. You know how to solve problems for which you receive praise and money. Home life is more chaotic. Solving problems is less prescriptive and no one’s applauding or throwing money if you do it right... Learn to embrace the chaos of family life and enjoy the small victories."
-- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Sandra Dodd

-=-<<Another good response might be to point out that her leg is "all better" and that now it doesn't hurt anymore. >>

-=-That doesn't sound like a very respectful response.-=-

It’s not that bad.  Asking if it’s all better and whether it still hurts would seem kind of antagonistic.

Someone with a three-year-old in the house knows whether the child can run and jump and climb.

I’ve had a broken leg and a broken ankle before.  It’s clear to EVERYONE when it’s no longer broken.

Sandra

cheri.tilford@...

>>"for a little one, so traumatized, i have a hard time with the language of "lying"..."<<

I had the exact same thought. 
"Lying" means deliberately trying to deceive someone.  She's a baby, whose life has been riddled with pain.  Who knows who has paid her any attention, and how loving it felt for her?  Who knows what she has learned about what it takes to get her needs met?
Assuming ill intent has the potential to breed resentment, especially when the behaviors are entrenched. 
Why not assume she doesn't know exactly what's going on and is doing her best to make sense of it?  
Please, for her sake and everyone else in your family, don't say she's lying. 

cheri

jthomsonquazi@...

Hello jencookies43,
I'm so moved by your daughter's story.  She's suffered more in her 4 years than many do in a lifetime!  Her lying just reminded me of an author I heard interviewed on NPR last year who relayed that as a child, he told stories and people called him a liar... and now he tells stories and people call him a writer!!  Ha, ha!  That kind of puts things in perspective a little bit! 

Then, I had the thought that perhaps you could get her a blank notebook (maybe with a pretty picture on top to make it look special) and invite her to "write" stories just like the books writers make.  She would dictate stories to you and you write them down.  You can point out to her that the stories can be real or pretend... just like in real books!  This could lead to natural discussions about what is real and what is pretend.  She may not accurately distinguish the two (or want to) but she'll understand the concept.  It would be fun and perhaps therapeutic for her to illustrate the stories as well.  I have a notebook of stories that I wrote and illustrated in second and third grade that I read occasionally to my now 6 year old boy and he loves it and has "written" (dictated) and illustrated some of his own.  He asked me to illustrate some and write my own stories in his notebook too so it has been a fun collaborative activity.  I just had another thought that you could purchase the notebook together so that she could choose the cover that she likes.  OR, create your own cover!  The possibilities are endless to turn her imagination into fun, creative activities!!

The only other thing I can think of is that when my son said things that were clearly not true and intended to avoid something he did or didn't want to do, I would just give him a sly, playful look and say "are you tricking me?"  He would always laugh and admit it.  But my son doesn't have a history of trauma like your daughter does so I don't know if it would be useful.  But worth a try if she seems to be using not telling the truth to artificially adjust reality to her wishes.

Best,
Jenn
a newly unschooling Mom

naomicfisher@...

It is developmentally completely normal for 3 year olds (and 4 year olds, and 5 year olds) to lie. They are at an age when they are experimenting with what you know and what they know, and whether you know what they know. This is probably particularly important for her, since you were not around when all these things were happening to her so she has very little idea what you really might know. Lying at this age is not something you have to 'do' anything about for most children, they grow out of it when in a supportive environment. So I would see it as normal experimentation, rather than as meaning that there is something wrong with her, whether it be due to genetics or environment.


However, she has had a really difficult start to life and as such the lying might have more significance than it would for another child. I would pay attention to it, but not in a 'how can I change this' way but more as an insight into how she is processing her experiences and what her fears might be right now.


It sounds like her physical and medical needs have had priority in her life up to now and that her emotional needs may not have received as much attention. It is possible that as she feels more secure with you her emotional needs will become more obvious - meaning that her behaviour may become more challenging. Again, focusing on connection and attachment will be important in helping you all manage the repercussions of what happened to her when she was tiny.


I am not clear from your post what the 'chronic lying' is about on a daily basis. Apart from saying the foster mother hurt her, what is she lying about? Are there themes you can identify - e.g is she hiding things from you - might she be afraid you will take things away? Is she lying about her behaviour - might she be fearful you will send her back to hospital if she is 'bad'? Is she trying to make sense of what happened to her - medical treatment to young children may well feel like someone is hurting them deliberately?

It is possible to reflect back without confirming what she says - you could say something like 'it felt like your foster mother hurt you when your leg was hurting'. I would ask yourself in each moment how you can connect to her experience and build a relationship with her, rather than what you can do about her lying.

Naomi

semajrak@...

<<knowing what you now know, how would you deal with the lying>>

I would guess that this little girl is communicating as clear as she can just how much she is hurting inside.  Maybe by exaggerating the truth she can better communicate just how much she is suffering.  I would address that -- the suffering.  I would give her a lot of loving attention.  I would acknowledge her pain and loneliness.  I would take great effort to show you care and are paying attention.  

At this age, I would not address the mistruths directly, but I wouldn't validate them either.  I don't think it's healthy for this story to become a real part of her narrative about herself. When she is much older, if she is still telling this story, I would help her understand (maybe through therapy) that she was suffering, but not because of a leg broken at the hands of another person, but because of everything she was experiencing in her young life, which was no less serious.

I believe she's not lying to be deceitful.  It sounds to me like she's telling stories to help people understand her internal state.  I think the best thing you could do for her is to help heal that pain by giving her a lot of love and positive, empowering attention.  I love the book " I Like Myself" by Karen Beaumont:

http://www.amazon.com/I-Like- Myself-Karen-Beaumont/dp/ 0152020136/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8& qid=1417106363&sr=8-1& keywords=i+like+myself  

Ethan used to love it too, especially the ending.  We used to say it aloud together.  I have fond memories of that.

Maybe picking up some picture books from the library about lying and the consequences of lying might help if the story telling continues.  Maybe a movie or tv show.  Humourous ones would be a great way to keep it light.  Introduce them casually, without direct reference to her actions.  One here, one there, in and among all the other fun reading and activities you will get to do with her in the days to come.  

As you mentioned too, it could be from the drugs she was exposed to during her treatments.  I recently visited my mom who was in the hospital being treated for a broken sacrum. She's 88.  She was imagining all kinds of strange things people were doing to her.  We acknowledged that she was scared and hurting.  Now that she's no longer on that medication, she doesn't even remember all the things she was saying.  None of us see any reason to remind her of them either.  We just focus on helping her feel good about her progress every day.

Karen James.