hcdearmore@...


This may not be the right place to ask this, but unschooling and the whole philosophy behind it is very new and eye-opening to me.  Definitely a paradigm shift for me.  So you all are my sounding board and compass for unschooling – but as unschooling seems to involve all of life, I’m hoping you can help me with a question about behavior.  This relates to something that happened last night while my 16yo son was on the computer talking with his friend and playing an online game.

 

All of a sudden my son just laughs uproariously, like his friend has just said one of the funniest things he’s heard in a long time.  Then my son says, “You said the doctor said you’re going to be 5-4.”  (My son’s friend [“Greg”] is quite short, although he is 16 or 17. My son is close to 6 feet tall.)  Something about the way Greg said this apparently struck my son as being very very funny.  It wasn’t what Greg had said, but rather how it was said – the expression and the timing. Later he went on to discuss it with Greg in a little more depth.  My son is generally a very kind and loving individual, and a good friend and popular member of his fairly large group of friends.

 

Sitting in the next room hearing this, I was horrified, and thought that my son’s reaction was very insensitive.  Normally I would take him aside at some convenient later time and talk to him about being more sensitive to people’s situations.  What do you all think about this?  What I’ve been reading about trusting the child – does this extend to situations like this?  How does this approach to child rearing address behavior that may seem insensitive to others’ feelings?


Joyce Fetteroll

> What I’ve been reading about trusting the child – does this extend to situations like this?

The basic idea beneath unschooling is that children can learn without being taught.

But what helps learning best is not the only factor to weigh. Is an action hurting someone? Is it causing destruction? Is it disrespectful of others?

Social skills are probably the most difficult skills to learn. That's because the child needs an awareness not just of how well it's working for him but how well it's working for the other person. That awareness comes with ages. Kids can end up hurting others and nuking friendships if they're left to figure it out themselves before they can understand what they're doing wrong.

So it's helpful both to the child and others to step in when the child is hurting someone. It's helpful to assume they don't want to hurt others. Kids just haven't mastered the skills to meet a need AND not hurt others.

As for that situation, it sounds like it wasn't a matter of being deliberately insensitive. It's that he didn't realize he was insensitive. You could have then pointed out that how he reacted may have hurt his friend's feelings.

It's usually helpful with kids to begin with the assumption that they don't know how rather than assume they do know how and have deliberately chosen to be mean or hurtful or selfish.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-This may not be the right place to ask this, but unschooling and the whole philosophy behind it is very new and eye-opening to me.  Definitely a paradigm shift for me.  So you all are my sounding board and compass for unschooling – but as unschooling seems to involve all of life, I’m hoping you can help me with a question about behavior.  This relates to something that happened last night while my 16yo son was on the computer talking with his friend and playing an online game.-=-

Before you decide to move toward unschooling, was your son in school?
Are there younger children, too?

Here are some ideas for beginning with a teen, but if you don’t mind giving some more details, I might have other ideas.
http://sandradodd.com/later

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

SORRY!!!

One little letter….  I meant “decideD”_
:

Before you decided to move toward unschooling, was your son in school?
Are there younger children, too?

hcdearmore@...

(I thought I had posted a reply to this, but I guess it got lost.  I apologize if it comes through after I post this!) 

 

Yes, my son was in 11th grade at a local charter school.  We just withdrew him last Thursday.  He was failing all of his core classes.  My main concern was that his creative spirit was being crushed, and he was getting stressed out by the weight of undone work, failing grades and worried, disappointed parents and teachers.  Although he clearly could do the work (based on good grades when he turned in work, as well as on standardized tests), for some reason we couldn’t fathom he just wouldn’t do the work!  We’ve been going through this cycle for years, and at this point we just felt like something different had to be done! 

 

Our son is excited about unschooling – except he’s afraid of losing his friends.  He has lots of ideas for things he’d like to do and learn.  His fear for himself is that he will not actually do anything, but rather will sit around and play video games all day long.  I know we are supposed to trust the child and the method, but I do think his concern is a valid one, given his history of not putting much effort into things.  For instance if he feels he’s going to lose a foot race, he will just stop running.  I see that some of this may come from my being demanding of him.  I’m sure I’ve made many mistakes that have harmed his spirit. 

 

Another concern is the standard estimate of needing to deschool for 1 month for each year of schooling.  At that rate he’d be almost 18 by the time he had school well out of his system.  But that’s really a separate question for a separate post.  This is what we have, and as Sandra says in her link: “If you’re going to unschool, do it now and do it well.”

 

Our son has one brother, who is 7 years older than he is.  His brother did very well academically, and temperamentally is very different than his younger brother (quiet, deep and with few friends).  Our 16yo is very outgoing socially, and shares his feeling easily and unselfconsciously – although he too has deep thoughts and ponders many imponderables. 

Sandra Dodd

Most members of the group are on moderation, so if you post and it doesn’t show up, wait a while. Group moderators are busy moms, generally.

Here was the first one, in case you said something in a different way and it might help:

_______

Yes, my son was in a charter school which was pretty good as schools go -- but he just wasn't interested in what was being taught -- even the extracurricular opportunities, which were many and varied. He was on track for failing all of his core courses for the semester. This "disinterest" has been going on for years. He is interested in things, but seems to lack the "get up and go" to actually pursue them, especially when it looks like it might take more than a modicum of effort. We just took him out of school last Thursday, from 11th grade. We're deschooling right now, and he's coming up with all kinds of things he wants to do, I'm trying to help with providing experiences and resources, without putting "shoulds" and too many suggestions on him. I still have a LOT to learn!

He has an older brother -- seven years older and very different temperamentally (quiet and introspective). No younger siblings.
_____________

-=- We just took him out of school last Thursday, from 11th grade. We're deschooling right now, and he's coming up with all kinds of things he wants to do, -=-

Then don’t criticize the way he is with his friends, I think.
Maybe, at most, ask “Do you think that might have hurt his feelings?”
or
“Maybe because you’re tall, it’s hard to know how someone might feel if he’s short.”

But I would let him heal from school and pressure, and try to keep life light and airy.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-His fear for himself is that he will not actually do anything, but rather will sit around and play video games all day long.  I know we are supposed to trust the child and the method, but I do think his concern is a valid one, given his history of not putting much effort into things-=-

But if you and he think that learning takes effort, that can be a problem.

If he were recovering from a broken leg, walking on it would NOT help.
If he’s recovering from a life of school, you and he might need to move toward seeing “sit around and play video games all day long” as something, rather than nothing.

If he fears being where he is, and will only feel “successful” if he is someone else, somewhere else, why did you take him out of school?

If you took him out of school so he would feel less criticized and wrong-directional, but now that he’s out he’s feeling the same way, progress isn’t being made.  Healing isn’t happening.


http://sandradodd.com/being might help you.  Maybe instead of looking at what he is doing, look at how (and why and where and when and who) YOU are being, as a parent.  Instead of trying to change him, change you, and your viewpoint, your softness, your awareness.

Maybe poke around the related post links or randomizer here:  http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

I’m going to take the deschooling part to another thread, but how old is he?  Did I miss it? Please review for us.  

-=-  At that rate he’d be almost 18 by-=-

Is he 15?  If so, why was he “in 11th grade”?
Was he pressed ahead?

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll

> Although he clearly could do the work (based on good grades
> when he turned in work, as well as on standardized tests), for
> some reason we couldn’t fathom he just wouldn’t do the work!

It isn't hard to fathom. If I assigned you to learn Bolivian history how well would you do? If I then judged your worth by whether your learning met the standards I set, how would it affect your sense of self?

When people are learning what they value, they learn exceptionally well. When people don't value what they're required to learn, it's very difficult. When people are judged by standards that aren't their own, it can be soul crushing.

> except he’s afraid of losing his friends.


It is a valid concern. He won't be able to see them without effort. And he also will have less in common with them.

Do make it a priority to find ways for them to get together. It will help him accept any drifting in friendships if he knows he is trying.

Also find opportunities for friendships outside of school. A big plus is he won't be limited to people his age. He can, like adults do, form friendships based on interests.


> His fear for himself is that he will not actually do anything,
> but rather will sit around and play video games all day long.

Until he's gotten school out of his system, that's what deschooling can look like.

It will help him to realize that the reason he wasn't doing school work was because it wasn't meaningful to him. He naturally realized it was taking more from him than it was giving back. And it would have been surprising if he had found meaning in it!

Unschooling *doesn't* look like kids working on school independently. It looks like exploring interests. It looks like play. That's how we naturally learn. And it works really really well. After all nature has had several million years to perfect it ;-)

Joyce

hcdearmore@...

He just turned 16 in July.  I was basing the estimate on 11 years of school (Kinder was pretty academic), as well as Preschool for a year -- so really about a year of deschooling, using the 1mth/yr rule of thumb (I guess my math was a little off there!).  He wasn't pressed ahead, but as I recall he was at the cusp of being allowed to enter Kinder or stay out of school for another year, and we decided to put him in school at that point. 

Clare Kirkpatrick

"His fear for himself is that he will not actually do anything, but rather will sit around and play video games all day long.  I know we are supposed to trust the child and the method, but I do think his concern is a valid one, given his history of not putting much effort into things. "

It sounds like not doing anything except sitting round playing video games is your fear to. In my opinion, as the mother, you need to focus on deschooling your beliefs about playing video games so that you can actually begin to feel genuinely positive about them. 

You're not supposed to blindly trust your child and the 'method' (which is completely not the right word for unschooling, I think). You're supposed to be doing the required work as a parent to know that these principles are the best way for children to learn. 

With regards to gaming, there is lots on the Internet now about how valuable it is for children. Search for Peter Gray's articles on Psychology Today and Sandra's site has lots about 'screentime'.

A friend of mine worries about her younger child learning as many skills as her older because she *doesn't* enjoy video gaming and she's so in awe of what her son has learned from it once she stopped fearing it and started helping him find ways to play more rather than ways to encourage him to play less.


Sent from Samsung Mobile

semajrak@...

<<His fear for himself is that he will not actually do anything, but rather will sit around and play video games all day long.  I know we are supposed to trust the child and the method, but I do think his concern is a valid one, given his history of not putting much effort into things.>>

Gaming takes a lot of effort.  A person who doesn't want to put effort into things, wouldn't be at all interested in playing video games.  Video games are for people who really enjoy solving challenging problems, putting to use their out-of-the-box thinking and long term focus to help them achieve their goals.  People don't seem to appreciate that.  

One afternoon I was chatting with a gentleman who is currently working in computer vision.  He is such a sweet man, and brilliant.  He has changed the way we search and categorize photos online.  We were talking about how much Ethan enjoys video games.  I have historically assumed that people in the computer science field would embrace game play, but that is most often not the case, and this was one of those times.  After sharing a bit of my son's enthusiasm, this man looked down at the ground and told us that he was ashamed because he used to play video games too much.  He said he wasted a lot of time.  I was gobsmacked.  I looked under at him to make eye contact again and I asked him if he really thought it was time wasted, or if he had ever considered it was time invested, contributing in a real and meaningful way to who he is today.  He literally was tongue-tied, seemingly never having thought this before, and quietly asked himself aloud could it be possible that playing all those games had contributed to his current success.  He answered his own question in the negative, but I could see the wheels working for some time after that.  

There are several successful people who do, however, see their game playing as a strong contributing factor in their success.  Eric Demaine (http://erikdemaine.org/) is a professor at MIT.  He openly talks about how important video games were in his early years.  He programmed his first game at age eight.  

John Carmack is currently CTO of Oculus.  My husband recently visited with him.  He too celebrates his in-depth love of gaming.  He was lead programmer on games such as Doom, Quake and Castle Wolfenstein -- games my husband and I played hours of together when we were younger.  Mr Carmack is known for giving fascinating talks without having prepared a thing in advance.  You might enjoy googling him.

Doug, my husband, who currently works as a professor at Cornel University in the computer science department, played hours and hours of games, starting with the board game Risk, following with nearly every Atari game ever made, then followed by a series of PC first player shooter games.  Currently, he plays Starcraft 2.  He will still play for hours when he can.  He loves playing.  It helps him unwind as well as keeps his mind sharp.  Recently Doug taught a lecture in his introduction to computer science class, where he used Starcraft 2 as an example he was hoping the students could relate too.  He said it was humourous to see the faces of the students before him -- a room of 400 bodies.  A few even took pictures of him talking in front of his slides because (I assume) they were so surprised a professor was using a video game to illustrate the material they were learning.  And, he knew his game, so that was even more impressive!  :-)

Help your son see all of the positive and wonderful things he is doing and achieving when he plays a game.  First, you will need to learn see it.  There are a couple books you could read.  

Don't Bother Me Mom, I'm Learning by Marc Prensky is a good one.
What Video Games Have to Teach Us About Learning and Literacy by James Gee

For fun, you and your son might like to check out a book called "Ready Player One" by Ernest Cline.  The whole plot revolves around celebrating video games and pop culture.  Doug is reading it aloud to Ethan and me.  We're nearly done, and it has been so fun!  There is some mature language and themes, but it should be good for a boy your son's age.  Ethan, who is eleven, is enjoying it very much.

Another book you both might enjoy is Bad for You -- Exposing the War on Fun.  Here's a link:  http://www.amazon.com/Bad-You-Exposing-War-Fun/dp/0805092897/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1415547477&sr=1-2&keywords=bad+for+you

Most of all, choose to have fun!  Fear will hold you back.  Guilt and shame will set in to cloud thinking and stunt progress.  Having the courage to have fun in whatever pursuit thrills you most will most likely lead you to places you never expected to go.  :-)

Karen James.

semajrak@...

I just picked Doug up from the airport.  He had been in LA for a meeting.  While he was there, BlizzCon was happening.  He wanted to make it back to his hotel room in time to catch the last Starcraft match, which he did, and said was fantastic.  

Doug said something else that was really interesting to me that I thought might be interesting to others here.  

He showed me this picture from the event:


There were 9000 people in attendance watching two Korean kids play the video game Starcraft for a $100,000. prize.  Doug said that Korean kids dominate the game of Starcraft in expertise Worldwide.  The reason for that is that parents fully support their children's gaming.  Society encourages gaming.  It's seen as a sport, and a prestigious one at that.  

I thought that it was really interesting that a shift in focus (from seeing gaming as a waste of time to seeing it as a respected sport) can lead to an obvious advantage.  I think that same advantage, in whatever form it takes, can happen in a home too, in big and modest ways, but all of them meaningful and crucial to a happy life.   

Karen.

 





[email protected]

A few days back. my 13yo son did nothing all morning, then went to fix our mailbox in afternoon (lid would not stay shut).
I asked later how solution came to him to fix.  He said he was mulling the problem around in his mind in AM hours.
Well that was good to know.  The mail box was fixed perfectly. 

JA Smith



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Sandra Dodd

-=-He said he was mulling the problem around in his mind in AM hours.-=-

I do this sometimes, with sewing projects, or cooking, or writing.  I clean or pull weeds or play a pattern game that doesn’t have words, but I’m visualizing the predicting and figuring out what needs to go first and what can go wrong.

Sandra

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

<<His fear for himself is that he will not actually do anything, but rather will sit around and play video games all day long.  I know we are supposed to trust the child and the method, but I do think his concern is a valid one, given his history of not putting much effort into things.>>

My son is a gamer and one could say he just sits around and plays video games all day long!

Yes he does do many other things but I would bet someone that just saw him spend many hours in his room in his gaming computer ( the one we both built together a year ago) is "just playing video games">

But I am the type of person, big part thanks to unschooling, who not only supports what my kids do and are interested in but I also embrace it big time. Not I am not a gamer. I do like it here and there.
What I do it I really LOVE video games! I have watched my kids play enough and I have played with them enough to know how much they are getting out of it. I understand what it takes to play the games. I see all the research my son does about his games.
Gaming has led him to other passions , like the Medieval Times and he has learned so so much about so many things.

Not only that but he is a great writer, researcher, into so so much!
He is pretty amazing ! All from video games!
I also have put a lot of my time researching video games  and I am really impressed!
 IF you think "just " playing video games is doing nothing   you are pretty wrong ! :)

 Here are some names to Google ( they all have great videos too)

Constance Steinkuhler video games and learning

 James Paul Gee

Jane McGonigal  Reality is Broken.

That should get you started :)

Alex Polikowsky-  A big fan of video games
 
 
 


On Sunday, November 9, 2014 12:29 PM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
-=-He said he was mulling the problem around in his mind in AM hours.-=-

I do this sometimes, with sewing projects, or cooking, or writing.  I clean or pull weeds or play a pattern game that doesn’t have words, but I’m visualizing the predicting and figuring out what needs to go first and what can go wrong.

Sandra