colleen.e.burns@...

We are currently operating from a model of parenting where the parent takes the lead in nurturing a strong connection with their children. The parents do the hard work of analyzing and working on their own triggers where they react strongly to their children's actions, instead of just reacting blindly and clamping down in an authoritarian manner. I see strong support for both parents and children in this model and much respect for the inner workings of relationships. I see this approach stemming very much from attachment parenting theories. My question is about how you see these models in relation to unschooling. I am trying to find my way, and am not sure how compatible these two approaches are. For one, there is an emphasis on the parents taking the lead--at least in terms of the relationship. And secondly, tantrums, crying and shaking are seen as important mechanisms for emotional release (vs. seeing in an unschooling resource that tantrums are not understood to be normal). Also, these other approaches call themselves authoritative (differentiated from authoritarian), which is not a popular word in unschooling circles. I would love to hear thoughts from folks who are familiar with these resources on how these two approaches fit together, or don't! Thank you!

Sandra Dodd

-=-We are currently operating from a model of parenting where the parent takes the lead in nurturing a strong connection with their children.-=-

Who else would "take the lead" but the parents who understand what nurturing and connections are, and what would help and what would hurt?

Babies are born knowing what they need, and if they're not ignored, things go better.

If you're very new to unschooling, though, read more and discover for yourself whether and how it will fit in with what you want for your family. An excellent introduction has been created by Pam Laricchia. It's free, and is a series of e-mails with prompts and exercises to help a parent move quickly toward an understanding of the basis and principles: http://www.livingjoyfully.ca (You'll see the link there, center top).

It's possible you have heard that unschooling is "child-led." Compared to a curriculum, the learning is about what the children are interested, but Pam Sorooshian has written something clarifying about the idea:
http://learninghappens.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/unschooling-is-not-child-led-learning/
Unschooling is not “Child-Led Learning”

I'm guessing that the parenting philosophy you've looked at doesn't involve home education.
The basis of unschooling is learning. First, how do children learn and how can parents help them? And from that point, other things unfold, spring, grow.

-=-And secondly, tantrums, crying and shaking are seen as important mechanisms for emotional release (vs. seeing in an unschooling resource that tantrums are not understood to be normal). -=-

Biochemically, sure—crying can take pent-up emotions and let the biochemicals out. "Shaking"? I'm honestly not sure what you mean, unless you mean adrenated fury, where muscles are so tight one is shaking.

Why should tantrums be considered "normal" though?
They are reaction to frustration. Why shoudl a parent provide or encourage frustration?

If tantrums, crying and "shaking" (explain, if you would, please) are mechanisms for emotional release, why not back up a few steps and live in such a way that the emotions don't build to the point of explosion or grief?

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 9, 2014, at 9:33 AM, colleen.e.burns@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

> For one, there is an emphasis on the parents taking the lead--at least in terms of the relationship.

Rather than looking at a method to tell you who should take the lead, it's more helpful in any kind of relationships to look for feedback on what the other person needs from you and feedback on what's working and what isn't. That feedback might be body language, tone, attitude, actions as well as direct words.

In any kind of relationship, working on your own triggers that get in the way of giving the other person what they need is good.


> And secondly, tantrums, crying and shaking are seen as important mechanisms for emotional release


I don't know what shaking is. I assume you don't mean an adult shaking a child.

Crying to release emotions is normal and healthy. Crying in response to a parent's decision is feedback. In that case it's a decision worth re-examining.

Tantrums are a release of a buildup of frustration. It's a reaction to lack of control over one's life. Some kids have stronger feelings so will tantrum faster than other kids. Some kids learn that more socially acceptable ways of getting a parent to notice their needs -- tired, hungry, bored, needy -- get ignored. So they go right to tantrum.

Some articulate kids have been able to reveal tantrums are frightening. They feel out of control.

A tantrum isn't normal. It's an explosive release. Being aware of kids needs and their limits will go a long way to avoiding them. Some kids overload quickly! But the more the parent can prevent, the easier it is for both child and parent to handle the times when they're both caught by surprise.

I've only heard the names you listed mentioned. I don't know any more about them than what you've written. It sounds much like many parenting approaches that attempt to give parents techniques. The focus then shifts to the techniques rather than the child, the child's needs and the feedback the child is giving the parent. Radical unschooling is about understanding human needs and getting to know each child's particular needs and how that child needs those needs met.

Not sure if that helps clear up your questions.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-A tantrum isn't normal. It's an explosive release. Being aware of kids needs and their limits will go a long way to avoiding them. Some kids overload quickly! But the more the parent can prevent, the easier it is for both child and parent to handle the times when they're both caught by surprise.-=-

Joyce wrote that.
Of what the original question addressed, this "tantrum" thing has hung in my thoughts.

For someone to assure a parent that a tantrum is normal and healthy seems quite a pro-parent, good job, it's not your fault, don't worry sort of philosophy.

Unschooling involves helping children be whole and calm and thoughtful and to have the ability to make choices, which feels like power to a child.   And it is.  And to a parent, too.

If a parent feels she has no choices, but "has to" do one thing or another, she feels powerless.

So the things that might help one see the difference between a philosophy that talks about relationships but encourages tantrums and crying might be these:

If someone on your team is freaking out, you should have been a better partner at some point before that.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

Ah!!! Maybe the parenting Colleen.e.burns is talking about is an improvement on a parent shaming a child for having a tantrum or crying. They're saying parents should accept them as useful human responses.

Unschooling is on beyond that, then, I think, in a further direction.

We're not going BACK toward saying "NO, tantrums are BAD. STOP IT."

We've moved away from it by attending to our children's needs and being there so much that tantrums are less likely to build up in the first place.

Controls, rules, inattention and lack of options makes tantrums normal.
Assistance, living by principles, attention and lots of options make tantrums unusual.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=- Also, these other approaches call themselves authoritative (differentiated from authoritarian), which is not a popular word in unschooling circles.-=-

If you want to explain why you know what is and isn't popular among unschoolers, that might be useful.  Have you read a lot about unschooling and you're being critical of unschoolers not understanding something you think is very important to know?

Or did you do a google search for "authoritative unschooing" and didn't find much?

It might help to consider the term "authority" (the root of "authoritative" and "authoritarian," both of which are expansions on how to use and view one's authority).  I know more about unschooling than lots of people, but am I "an authority"?  What would it men for there to be "unschooling authorities" out and about in the world?

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

Too many typos.  I want a re-play of part of my post, please.  I should have been more careful.
_________

did you do a google search for "authoritative unschooling" and didn't find much?

It might help to consider the term "authority" (the root of "authoritative" and "authoritarian," both of which are expansions on how to use and view one's authority).  I know more about unschooling than lots of people, but am I "an authority"?  What would it mean for there to be "unschooling authorities" out and about in the world?
___________

I feel better. :-)

I went to try to read some Neufeld stuff, but there's very little freely available, and I didn't want to invest a lot of time (or money).    My kids are grown and doing well, not many tantrums to recall, and what I'm really interested in doing is helping people see unschooling more clearly.  

I did find a tussle at the Mothering Magazine forum, which isn't very well moderated or peaceful.   Someone seemed to be saying that his book said that breastfed babies spoke sooner because their mouth muscles got exercise.   That's not very helpful (and not likely to be true).  Perhaps she misunderstood him or misquoted.

And if the thesis of the book is that children's bond with their parents should be stronger than their need to bond with others their age, unschooling takes care of that naturally, and gradually (if families start early enough, and deschooling and unschooling can rebuild the bond if they don't wait too long).  

But children in school WILL bond with other children, because of human instinct to know relative rank, within a group, and to follow alphas.  If all the "group" is the same age, it will be an unnatural overlay of primate behavior onto a randomly chosen group of kids ("random" meaning arbitrary—kids from the same school district, with similar years).  Unschooling doesn't have that problem.

Is he solving for problems unschoolers have avoided?

Sandra

keabry@...

Hi,

I have read a little about Hand-In-Hand Parenting. My understanding is
that it is about developing a relationship with your kids, setting limits,
and supporting the kids in dealing with the limits. I think the focus on
the relationship is great (it is the very foundation of unschooling) but I
find words like "setting limits" or "misbehaving" as patronizing, and
contradictory in nurturing the relationship.

In contrast, I find another communication model, Non-Violent Communication
(NVC), developed by Marshall Rosenberg to be a much better complement to
unschooling. For example, the original post referred to tantrums. In NVC
emotions are like sign-posts that helps us discover our needs. Emotions
like sadness, frustration, anger, etc. tell us that a need is not being
met. In the case of tantrums, it could be hunger, rest, solitude, choice
(a child experiencing a limit set by someone else), competence (a child
wanting to be able to do or make something but they don't yet have the
skills to do or make it in the way they envision it). Once you uncover
the need, you can work together to find a strategy to meet the need. In
the case of conflict, you work together to find a strategy that meets both
parties needs - a win-win. Can you see the difference in mindset between
uncovering the unmet need that caused a tantrum to this quote from the
Hand-In-Hand website:

"A good, vigorous tantrum or a hearty, deeply felt cry will clear your
child’s mind of the emotion that was driving him off track and will enable
him to relax again and make the best of the situation he is in."

Instead, an unschooling (also NVC) mindset would be that the emotion helps
us identify the underlying need, it does "not drive us off track" and
helps us see how we can help ourselves, or our children, to make positive
*changes* in the situation to support the child in meeting their needs,
rather than, as I read the above, to accept a limit which has been set
upon them.

For myself, when I heard about unschooling, it immediately felt right,
intuitive (although of course I still struggle sometimes against the
unconscious patterning of my own upbringing and the direction of the
surrounding society), and I have a gut reaction when hearing words like
"limits" and "positive discipline." If that isn't the case for you, then I
think you just have to sit down and read lots of unschooling resources,
like Sandra's site and books, Pam Larrichia's books, and many others to
see if it becomes more intuitive, and something that resonates with you.

Warmly,

Kim

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Are you talking about Gordon Neufeld?

I Googled him and the first think I clicked was  this article on "Alpha Children"

http://neufeldinstitute.com/blog/2012/03/does-your-child-have-an-alpha-complex/

and then the next article I went  said this:
-=-=-=-=
"
 Just as the quarks of the atom rush to attach to other quarks when they are separated from each other, so too, children rush to attach to friends, cellphones and ipods which compete with parents. If these competing attachments were helping our children grow up, they would not be so dangerous. But they are pulling children out of orbit with their parents, depriving them of the close, warm relationships which are so necessary for healthy maturation."
-=-=-=-=-=-
Now this article about stopping to connect with our children throughout  the day I like:
http://neufeldinstitute.com/blog/2012/01/moments-of-connection-with-our-children/


Now keep in mind those were NOT written by Gordon Neufeld but are writers from his institute.

I saw a video awhile ago of him talking ( you can find it easily on Youtube but I am not going to post here) and his fearmongering about how technology and media was dangerous and terrible were a huge turn off. Even if he says some good things that just goes to prove that he has NO experience with kids raised the way mine are being raised.

 
 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Tuesday, September 9, 2014 11:19 AM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
Too many typos.  I want a re-play of part of my post, please.  I should have been more careful.
_________

did you do a google search for "authoritative unschooling" and didn't find much?

It might help to consider the term "authority" (the root of "authoritative" and "authoritarian," both of which are expansions on how to use and view one's authority).  I know more about unschooling than lots of people, but am I "an authority"?  What would it mean for there to be "unschooling authorities" out and about in the world?
___________

I feel better. :-)

I went to try to read some Neufeld stuff, but there's very little freely available, and I didn't want to invest a lot of time (or money).    My kids are grown and doing well, not many tantrums to recall, and what I'm really interested in doing is helping people see unschooling more clearly.  

I did find a tussle at the Mothering Magazine forum, which isn't very well moderated or peaceful.   Someone seemed to be saying that his book said that breastfed babies spoke sooner because their mouth muscles got exercise.   That's not very helpful (and not likely to be true).  Perhaps she misunderstood him or misquoted.

And if the thesis of the book is that children's bond with their parents should be stronger than their need to bond with others their age, unschooling takes care of that naturally, and gradually (if families start early enough, and deschooling and unschooling can rebuild the bond if they don't wait too long).  

But children in school WILL bond with other children, because of human instinct to know relative rank, within a group, and to follow alphas.  If all the "group" is the same age, it will be an unnatural overlay of primate behavior onto a randomly chosen group of kids ("random" meaning arbitrary—kids from the same school district, with similar years).  Unschooling doesn't have that problem.

Is he solving for problems unschoolers have avoided?

Sandra


Sharkeydawn

Aha parenting is Dr Laura Markham's website. It is quite good on babies and young toddlers in my opinion and I sometimes give people who are new to the idea of gentle parenting links to parts of it if they ask for ideas. 

But it absolutely isn't the same as Unschooling. There's quite a bit of talk of "boundaries" in the sense of really meaning a rule constructed by the parent, not a real life reason not to do something. Some of the advice for older kids is about "consequences" and while they may seem gentler than "the naughty step" they feel punitive to me.

She also is very fearful of technology and advocates strict limits on TV. 

Dawn 

Sent from my iPhone

On 9 Sep 2014, at 19:01, "BRIAN POLIKOWSKY polykowholsteins@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:

 

Are you talking about Gordon Neufeld?

I Googled him and the first think I clicked was  this article on "Alpha Children"

http://neufeldinstitute.com/blog/2012/03/does-your-child-have-an-alpha-complex/

and then the next article I went  said this:
-=-=-=-=
"
 Just as the quarks of the atom rush to attach to other quarks when they are separated from each other, so too, children rush to attach to friends, cellphones and ipods which compete with parents. If these competing attachments were helping our children grow up, they would not be so dangerous. But they are pulling children out of orbit with their parents, depriving them of the close, warm relationships which are so necessary for healthy maturation."
-=-=-=-=-=-
Now this article about stopping to connect with our children throughout  the day I like:
http://neufeldinstitute.com/blog/2012/01/moments-of-connection-with-our-children/


Now keep in mind those were NOT written by Gordon Neufeld but are writers from his institute.

I saw a video awhile ago of him talking ( you can find it easily on Youtube but I am not going to post here) and his fearmongering about how technology and media was dangerous and terrible were a huge turn off. Even if he says some good things that just goes to prove that he has NO experience with kids raised the way mine are being raised.

 
 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Tuesday, September 9, 2014 11:19 AM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
Too many typos.  I want a re-play of part of my post, please.  I should have been more careful.
_________

did you do a google search for "authoritative unschooling" and didn't find much?

It might help to consider the term "authority" (the root of "authoritative" and "authoritarian," both of which are expansions on how to use and view one's authority).  I know more about unschooling than lots of people, but am I "an authority"?  What would it mean for there to be "unschooling authorities" out and about in the world?
___________

I feel better. :-)

I went to try to read some Neufeld stuff, but there's very little freely available, and I didn't want to invest a lot of time (or money).    My kids are grown and doing well, not many tantrums to recall, and what I'm really interested in doing is helping people see unschooling more clearly.  

I did find a tussle at the Mothering Magazine forum, which isn't very well moderated or peaceful.   Someone seemed to be saying that his book said that breastfed babies spoke sooner because their mouth muscles got exercise.   That's not very helpful (and not likely to be true).  Perhaps she misunderstood him or misquoted.

And if the thesis of the book is that children's bond with their parents should be stronger than their need to bond with others their age, unschooling takes care of that naturally, and gradually (if families start early enough, and deschooling and unschooling can rebuild the bond if they don't wait too long).  

But children in school WILL bond with other children, because of human instinct to know relative rank, within a group, and to follow alphas.  If all the "group" is the same age, it will be an unnatural overlay of primate behavior onto a randomly chosen group of kids ("random" meaning arbitrary—kids from the same school district, with similar years).  Unschooling doesn't have that problem.

Is he solving for problems unschoolers have avoided?

Sandra


Sharkeydawn

So I went browsing for an example of how Unschooling and the techniques described by Laura Markham differ. I quickly found several and chose this, from the page on "preschoolers" and sleep.

-----* If she gets up repeatedly, give her one "Get Out of Bed Free" card, every night. She can use it that night, or save it for when she really needs it. This reassures her that if she really needs to go find you, she can. Many kids prefer to save these cards, though, and it stops the habit of getting up.
------

The assumption here is that she doesn't "really need" the parent and it encourages the child to bury emotions and not try connect with the parent when she wants to. Markham is also big on not falling asleep watching tv etc.

My kids are young (around the age she's writing about) but always fall asleep with me on the sofa, watching tv, peacefully. Then I take them up to bed. If they want me again I'm there for them. I'll help them resettle in bed or bring them back downstairs as need be. Occasionally one requests to stay asleep by my side, on the sofa, till I go to bed, that is fine. If they need me, they need me. They don't need a card for permission or proof.

Dawn 

Sandra Dodd

 I really like this:  -=-If they need me, they need me. They don't need a card for permission or proof.-=-
Training children isn't the same as having a close personal relation to one of them. :-)

Maybe there's a problem with this description:  "Hand in Hand/Parenting by Connection/Gordon Neufeld/Aha Parenting"

If those THREE don't even match, is the desire to make unschooling a new #4, of mismatched philosophies?

Sometimes parents have described themselves as "Waldorf/Montessori/Unschoolers" or "Homeschoolers/Unschoolers."

More isn't better, when it comes to philosophy.  And without beliefs and principles, decision making will be stunted.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-In contrast, I find another communication model, Non-Violent Communication
(NVC), developed by Marshall Rosenberg to be a much better complement to
unschooling.-=-

If you can use those together, that's fine, I guess.  I don't think NVC adds anything to unschooling except a wall of filter and dialog between the parent and the child.

-=- For example, the original post referred to tantrums. In NVC
emotions are like sign-posts that helps us discover our needs. Emotions
like sadness, frustration, anger, etc. tell us that a need is not being
met.-=-

Why can't parents just see that, though?

-=-In the case of tantrums, it could be hunger, rest, solitude, choice
(a child experiencing a limit set by someone else), competence (a child
wanting to be able to do or make something but they don't yet have the
skills to do or make it in the way they envision it). Once you uncover
the need, you can work together to find a strategy to meet the need. -=-

If an unschooling parent keeps food available, and a warm, clean, comfortable bed, guards each child's solitude and gives him lots of options, why would NVC help?

-=-Once you uncover the need, you can work together to find a strategy to meet the need.-=-

That's too much work and too much verbiage.  

The second a parent suspects a child might be hungry, FOOD!
Not "uncover" and "work" and "strategy."  Just food.  

Attention.  Provision.  Presence.  Unschooling.  

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-Maybe there's a problem with this description: "Hand in Hand/Parenting by Connection/Gordon Neufeld/Aha Parenting"

If those THREE don't even match...-=-


Wait. Is that four different things smooshed together?

colleen.e.burns@...

Wow! This is exactly the kind of parsing I was looking for! I wrote this reply while I was at the dentist, and now there are 7 additional replies, so forgive me for being a bit behind. I will add that yes, I have found some Neufeld stuff to be very fearmongering, which is partly why I am looking for something a bit different . . . Okay, here is my longer reply: Thank you so much for these informative and thoughtful replies. The blog post about unschooling not being exactly "child-led" was particularly helpful and cleared up a misunderstanding I had.  A bit of my own story is that I have a 7 1/2 year old daughter and a nearly 5 year old son. I have always homeschooled, with stints attempting unschooling, Waldorf, unschooling and now Project Based Homeschooling (a very unschooling friendly Reggio inspired approach). In my previous attempts at unschooling I definitely tried too much too quickly, and freaked out, and the pendulum swung back to something that felt safer. So now I am doing a lot of reading/trying/waiting/watching, and trying to reach for more joy, engagement and openness with my kids. I'm also sharing more of this reading and thinking with my partner, so we are on the same page and working at this as a family.  Back to these other approaches (which I will call authoritative--as opposed to authoritarian--for want of a better term) that I mentioned. I don't want to act as an apologist for these other schools of thought :) but in my quest for more gentle methods with my kids (and myself!), they have offered a lot of great tools. Yes, they are mostly talking to families who do or will send their kids to school, or parents of younger kids, but Gordon Neufeld in particular I know is pro-homeschooling (though I don't know his stance on unschooling--have searched for info and failed). (Yes, his stuff is so pricey!! I have found alternative ways to access many of his resources ;) ).  On tantrums, yes! I think that unschooling does reduce a lot of the stresses that schooled kids would otherwise encounter, thus reducing many reasons for tantrums. That does make sense! For me, however, I find tantrums happen, whether I am not engaged enough, or my kids get on each other's nerves, etc., and I have found the authoritative approach very helpful for me. Yes to what Sandra said: they offer an alternative to shaming, punishing, reacting, etc. to out of sorts behaviour. Much more emphasis on relationship building, reducing stress, cultivating understanding and compassion: many of the things I see recommended on unschooling boards. So like any tools, they can be used for good or for ill (trying to make a Texas Chainsaw Massacre kind of joke but failing!).  So back to me: I am working, working, working to be more engaged, kinder, more flexible, but step by step so that perhaps this time I won't freak out and run away! Thank you so much everyone for your thoughts on this! I also hope someone who has direct experience with these authoritative methods will jump in :) [which they have since I wrote this!] Colleen

Sandra Dodd

-=-and now Project Based Homeschooling (a very unschooling friendly Reggio inspired approach)-=-

So... project-based/unschooling/Reggio?

Maybe you could stop collecting names and methods, and look directly and your children and what they're learning!

-=-. In my previous attempts at unschooling I definitely tried too much too quickly, and freaked out, and the pendulum swung back to something that felt safer.-=-

http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
but TOO gradual prevents people from getting the benefit of unschooling so
http://sandradodd.com/doit

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=- That does make sense! For me, however, I find tantrums happen, whether I am not engaged enough, or my kids get on each other's nerves, etc., and I have found the authoritative approach very helpful for me.-=-

If you're going to bring things up, you  need to be prepared to explain and defend.

IF you are not engaged enough, what is it about an "authoritative approach" that helps you?

If children are getting on each other's nerves, that also falls under the mother not being present enough.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=- I also hope someone who has direct experience with these authoritative methods will jump in :)-=-

I hope they won't.

The purpose of this discussion is not for us to talk people out of using other methods.  The discussion was created and has been maintained for a long time (nearly 13 years; and it grew out of other discussions before that), not to do other people's research for them, but to discuss how learning works in an unschooling environment, and to share the further benefits unschooling brings to people's lives.

If you want to continue with project-based Reggio-inspired kind-of-unschooling, I expect you will wish you had dropped it sooner, if you do decide to unschool.  

If you came here for us to tell you that what you're doing is a good idea, or just as good as unschooling, that's not what we're here for.

Here's a collection of people's "If only I had..." notes:

Sandra


colleen.e.burns@...

For some reason I have never seen so clearly the connection between my challenges with staying engaged with my children and my tendency to read and research and apply labels and subscribe to schools of thought. Your responses have laid this out clearly for me. Wow. I am glad to have had the help in seeing how these approaches intersect and where they don't. I am going to go and review the links you have sent. You have given me much food for thought. Thank you, Colleen

bobcollier@...

"In contrast, I find another communication model, Non-Violent Communication
(NVC), developed by Marshall Rosenberg to be a much better complement to
unschooling."

If a parent-child relationship is warm, friendly and peaceful to begin with - as was the case during the almost nine years my son was "growing without school" - non-violent communication would then be a redundant concept, would it not? Where would I have found the violence that needed to be addressed with "non-violence" when my attention was on creating satisfaction and happiness?

shirarocklin@...

Hi,

I've watched a bit of Neufeld stuff on youtube in the past, and I have some online friends who seem expert with it, so I've followed some of their discussions.  While the book I read by him gave me nothing useful... the discussions I've followed of friends online have always lined up very very well with how I see unschooling... but I think unschooling does it better.  But what is useful is how he puts 'names' to the processes... just like 'attachment parenting' theory puts a name to what you are doing, and has terms that help define how to do that.  

But as Sandra says, there is a danger to too much labelling and naming. 

But that being said, as a starting off point, I think Neufeld is pretty good.  When he uses the label (or when my friends use that label) 'Authoritative' - and then they discuss real life problems in that context, they are talking about the parent taking the lead, letting their children know they are there and things are under control. Anyhow, the context the discussions give to the theory has shown me that their definition of authority is essentially very very similar to how much of the advice on this list goes.  Here, sometimes a parent is asking for help about inappropriate behaviour (illegal things, swearing in public, treating siblings nicely, etc) and the answers often include advice to tell them its not okay to swear in public, among other things.  Making that statement is authoritative... just like if a librarian tells people they must keep quiet at the library.  The difference is that in unschooling life, most of those extreme instances don't come up, and this authoritative stuff sounds very nice and calm and kind and gentle and its about little things... like where to pick your nose and put it ;)  Neufeld's theory seems to me about the same things... except he's fixing something that's broken... parent/child attachment (and he blames that on school and the media), instead of preserving something before its broken.  His idea that parent/child attachment is central to emotional well-being seems spot on to me.  I think he says that its much harder to keep that attachment strong when kids are in school... he says because attachment shifts to peers, but I think its just because of time limitations and more time spent with peers/teachers than parents means attachments will shift.

Same thing with tears, crying, tantrums, etc.  I think what my friends described is that sometimes kids (and adults) need to vent their feelings before they can move forward with the way things will end up being (not always their own Plan A).  Letting go of expectations can be difficult.  Its much more pleasant to use all the unschooling advice to prevent as much of that as possible, by creating easy transitions, making sure everyone is fed and slept well, etc...  but it does still happen sometimes.  And sometimes a kid does want to agree to a compromise/change to the plan to accommodate others... but it might still be that they have feelings about it and aren't ready to move to that plan until they've worked through those feelings, which might involve crying.  That's how I've understood it.  I think parents could use the concept to make more tears than are spared though... and I don't know how Neufeld originally intended.

I don't know his stuff personally, so I could be wrong about this.  And I'm not yet experienced enough to write a lot about unschooling... I mostly read.  I'm also super busy, so if something I wrote gets teased apart, I probably won't be able to come back and clarify. 

I prefer to function without all the labels and terms and theory.  But once in a while I do find these ideas helpful.  Usually I let those definitions go after a time and realize they are too narrow to describe all the facets of what we are experiencing. 

Shira

colleen.e.burns@...

Yes! This sounds like my understanding, and it is very helpful, especially in your reading of authority. In Neufeld, tears are seen as necessary to maturation, or at least that is my understanding. And I believe the other approaches share this view. So they do mention helping a child come to their tears, and sometimes that involves setting a limit. So that idea is really contrary to unschooling, where you have a lot of evidence to the contrary: kids grown up and mature without having had a lot if limits or tears. This is new information for me to put together. I am and have been moving beyond these labels and frameworks, and this discussion is helping me identify many of my sticking points. I know it seems so slow and I am not "there" yet, but I have come so far in the last year. Sometimes I just need to identify exactly why a certain framework is not working any more, to be able to see how to move past it. This has been very helpful to aid me in letting go some of my less-than-positive parenting ideas. Maybe that is more how I should have framed my initial question. And now I am off to enjoy being with my kids (instead of reading about how best to engage with kids!).

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 10, 2014, at 9:51 AM, colleen.e.burns@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

> So they do mention helping a child come to their tears, and sometimes
> that involves setting a limit. So that idea is really contrary to unschooling

It's contrary to human nature.

I think one of the more helpful analogies floating around unschooling discussions is to see children as visitors to a foreign land. Neither foreigners nor children stop being human just because they don't understand how the world works.

"Because you're a visitor to our land, unlike us, it's important that you cry over the limits we set."

Children don't know how to meet their needs and not step on other's toes. Limits and crying won't help them do that.

Joyce

Kim


-=- If a parent-child relationship is warm, friendly and peaceful to begin with - as was the case during the almost nine years my son was "growing without school" - non-violent communication would then be a redundant concept, would it not? Where would I have found the violence that needed to be addressed with "non-violence" when my attention was on creating satisfaction and happiness? -=-

Yes, absolutely!  If you are unschooling well, you may not feel any need for a framework to help you communicate.  And also, just for clarification, the name Non-Violent Communication (NVC) can be a bit misleading if you don't know what it is about.  It refers to a form of communication that creates choice and eliminates judgement.  The violence it refers to are the judgement and demands (the should's and have-to's) that are a part of many people's everyday speech and thought.  It is about hearing the needs behind an angry, or judgmental statement and responding with empathy rather than reacting to the anger or judgement.  I think this is something that comes naturally to someone for whom unschooling has become intuitive.   But being in a society where judgement and demands are seen as normal, I have sometimes found it a useful tool to get past all that and into an unschooling mindset.

-=- That's too much work and too much verbiage.  

The second a parent suspects a child might be hungry, FOOD!
Not "uncover" and "work" and "strategy."  Just food.  -=-

Yes, the verbiage can get in the way, but I do sometimes find it useful to play the format of NVC communication *in my mind* when working out something for which the solution isn't obvious (one of us is uncomfortable with something, but we can't quite put our fingers on the cause).  I don't find that I need it much in my relationship with my son, as I know him so intimately and find it easy to stay in tune with him (or correct myself pretty quickly if I've slipped out of synch because of distraction with something else going on in my life).  But I haven't always had that kind of intuition with my husband.  He suffers from periodic depression, which comes out as anger.  I used to just get angry right back, or feel guilty thinking I'd done something wrong.  It was using the "formula" of NVC that saved us.  It helped him be able to recognize and talk about his depression, and it helped me recognize the anger as an expression of unmet needs, and between us, we are able to keep our lives mostly blissful, or when we get busy and forget to check in, we can usually catch it before he spirals downwards.  NVC has also helped me recognize and address his (occasional) worries around unschooling.  

-=-I prefer to function without all the labels and terms and theory.  But once in a while I do find these ideas helpful.  Usual! ly I let those definitions go after a time and realize they are too narrow to describe all the facets of what we are experiencing. -=-

This was in reference to Neufeld, not my NVC comment, but it resonates with me. NVC is one of many tools (mindfulness is another example) that may be useful at times.  But like any tool, if we get overly focussed on it, it can use us rather than the other way around.  I like to use the analogy of cell phones.  They can be a useful tool to help connect people.  They can also work against connection, as when you see a parent sitting on a park bench pushing buttons on their phone instead of playing with their kids.

I know this forum is for discussing unschooling, not other methods, so I hesitated to send this clarification of my previous NVC email, but I do know many other people like me in our area who use NVC as a tool to help improve their unschooling, so I wanted to make sure I at least attempted to represent it accurately.

-=- Attention.  Provision.  Presence.  Unschooling.  -=-

I love this!  This would be great for Just Add Light and Stir.

Warmly,

Kim



On Sep 9, 2014, at 4:12 PM, bobcollier@... [AlwaysLearning] wrote:

 

"In contrast, I find another communication model, Non-Violent Communication
(NVC), developed by Marshall Rosenberg to be a much better complement to
unschooling."


If a parent-child relationship is warm, friendly and peaceful to begin with - as was the case during the almost nine years my son was "growing without school" - non-violent communication would then be a redundant concept, would it not? Where would I have found the violence that needed to be addressed with "non-violence" when my attention was on creating satisfaction and happiness?


tania

in general i have found, that it is really of no help to try to apply
parenting ideas of people who do send their children to school onto my
unschooling approach.

the main part of neufeld's work is the child being restrained from
his/her parents and orientated towrds same age children. how this shall
happen in an unschooling family i plain don't see.

there are lots of problems arising from sending your children to school
and if you do want to continue to send your children to school than it
might make sense to work on the symptoms.

but it just doesn't have anything to do with unschooling.

Sandra Dodd

-=- In Neufeld, tears are seen as necessary to maturation, or at least that is my understanding. And I believe the other approaches share this view. So they do mention helping a child come to their tears-=-

ALL FOUR?  
How many "approaches" are you lumping into this?

If someone recommends making a child cry, then that "authority" should be put in with the Pearls, and we should recommend that people not "follow" them.

Don't generalize anymore here.  I don't want to do the research to advise you now.  YOU tell us, colleen.e.burns.  Are these four different philosophies?
Hand in Hand
Parenting by Connection
Gordon Neufeld
Aha Parenting 

Do they ALL recommend bringing a child to tears?

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

 Sometimes I just need to identify exactly why a certain framework is not working any more, to be able to see how to move past it. This has been very helpful to aid me in letting go some of my less-than-positive parenting ideas. Maybe that is more how I should have framed my initial question

Too much framing, too much framework.

If you're familiar with cattle chutes and loading platforms, and Disneyland lines and conveyor belts, it seems that's what you've been looking for—ways to pass through, down, back and forth, to get to a destination.

Unschooling is showing you the whole world, without chutes and assembly lines.  Make choices.  Make a choice every time you speak or act.  Your direction and progress will come from the choices you make.

You seem to have wanted to get in line and move along with a group without thinking of what the next step should be.  

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=- I think he says that its much harder to keep that attachment strong when kids are in school... he says because attachment shifts to peers, but I think its just because of time limitations and more time spent with peers/teachers than parents means attachments will shift.
-=-

There are other factors than just the amount of time.

The peers didn't send the child off to school against his will.  Even if kids say they understand "having" to go to school, and even if the parents are apologietic, it's still a kind of abandonment.

There is a kind of friendship that comes up in the workplace, in prison, in school—of being stuck in the same place, a comaraderie—and it's powerfully strong inside that place.  

Those things don't happen with unschooling.

Sandra

colleen.e.burns@...

-=-Unschooling is showing you the whole world, without chutes and assembly lines. Make choices. Make a choice every time you speak or act. Your direction and progress will come from the choices you make. You seem to have wanted to get in line and move along with a group without thinking of what the next step should be. -=- Don't know why I didn't see it before, but I have totally been doing this. Applying labels instead of just making choices. After chatting with a friend this afternoon, I realized that no matter what label or framework or cattle chute I chose, it would still be *my family* not some idealized scene of some family. It will be me and my kids, living and learning together, making choices in each moment. Thank you once again, Colleen

Sandra Dodd

-=- Don't know why I didn't see it before, but I have totally been doing this. Applying labels instead of just making choices. -=-

Because you were lined up where labels were being distributed. :-)

When people pay for something (even the price of a book) they defend it.

It's kind of a trick, then, giving unschooling away.  It makes some people think it's not worth anything.  And some people try to sell it, or advice about how to do it, but what they sell is rarely half as good as what's available here for free (or on the sites frequently linked here).

If the problems are severe, amounting to trauma or dangerous mental illness, addiction, the big stuff, here:  http://http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy

If life is manageable, and all that's needed are some fresh air you remember to breathe, and lists of ideas and options and reasons to use them, nothing is likely to be better than this discussion.

Sandra