Sandra Dodd

Anonymous, please. Some has been paraphrased by me.

__________

I'd like the advice of the group anonymously please and your feedback too.

My daughter (8) is sensitive, and thinks and talks about death

In the past month or so she says that she is hearing voices. She's told me twice. Once a few weeks ago and said the voice is a boy and is asking her to do or say bad things.

The bad things were wanting to swear at people and hurting her soft toys (she loves them usually and treats them as real animals). She was going off into the other room and asking for privacy.

Today she was distraught and told me she heard the voices again and while I was on the toilet, literally away from her for a couple of minutes, it told her to hurt our guinea pigs. She said she took one out of the cage and shook it and put it back. We have permanent pets and often take in rescues and foster animals and she loves them so this is so completely out of character.

Both times she has found it very hard to tell me and said she really wanted to but it was so hard.

I try to tell her no matter what I can help her and will help her with the voices. I wanted to know more but didn't want to push her into talking about it more when it was obviously so hard.

I said if they are thoughts, you can choose to listen to them or push them away somehow. When she's had anxiety before, we've tried to use the strategy of not feeding the anxiety too much just talking about it but not too much that it takes over.

I've asked her to tell me if she's hearing them again to let me know ASAP so that we can try and cope with them together. I said I noticed she was going off again but really want her to be able to have private moments if she wants them because we are together almost 24/7, but she said that if she does again, she would like me to come and follow her.

With the dying feeling, it helped her to become friends with it. We used to say hi to it and just recognize it was about, talk about the feelings and to the dying feeling as if it was an actual entity, and that really helped and she barely has those feelings anymore.

I've looked up online and what I read said sometimes children hear voices after trauma but I can't honestly think of one big incident that has happened.

We have just come back from a couple of months [distant elsewhere] and the transition period is hard. And we usually nest at home for quite a while which we are doing now.

She has also become anxious about going out at night time so we don't walk around at night at all anymore. She is worried about seeing someone hurt an animal after seeing a group of boys throwing shoes at a cat sometime before we [left for the trip/visit].

Not sure if it's connected, but she seems to be going through some signs of early puberty.
__________________

(Sandra note: Sorry if the changes made it confusing; I want it less identifiable.)

Sandra Dodd

I'm not sure if the months away was a visit, or a temporary move.  I don't know if it had to do with unhappiness in the family.  But moving is a big stressor, famously.

-=-I said if they are thoughts, you can choose to listen to them or push them away somehow. -=-

"Push them away"?  
And if you said "If they are thoughts..." that sounds like you're saying that if they are voices, she doesn't have the same choices.

Maybe you should say that when people make decisions they can ask other poeple for ideas, or imagine scarious and outcomes (in whatever words she will understand).  Maybe watching movies and TV shows she enjoys could be utilized.  When a character is making a decision (the basis for lots of cartoons and sitcoms), you could diccuss what might happen, with one path or another.

Some kids like that kind of "what if" conversation.  Some don't.  I wouldn't do what bothers her.

When you're making your own decisions about where to go or when or what to do or buy or cook, maybe talking it aloud where she can hear you would help, or asking her for input, and letting her see how decisions can be made.

Maybe you could say (casually, not talking about IT, the voices) once in a while something like that other people wanted you to send her to school, but you wanted to give her a choice, or give her other experirences, or whatever it is.  

If you decide you want to find someone to talk to (for you, or for her, or together) there are people here who understand unschooling:


In any case, it might help you and her if you write down the things she hears.

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll

I would bet most people hear voices in the form of whispers and thoughts that form into words. It's just that for some people like your daughter the voices are clearer so sound like actual voices.

If it's a voice that's talking to her, then she can talk back to it.

Probably the problem is that it frightens her. Which makes her feel weak and small. Maybe some guided imagery will help her. Have her close her eyes and picture herself as strong and powerful. If she's a word lover, throw in some thesaurus words related to staunch. Build that picture up with her. Ask her what her hands look like. What do her arms look like. What is she wearing on her feet? What is she wearing on her head? What does her face look like. What does her strong face look like? What does her fierce face look like?

Then ask her what her powerful self can say to the voice. Walk though several ideas until she finds one or a handful she likes. Have her speak forcefully, firmly, no nonsense. If she enjoys playing with the voices, she can also say it meekly, then a goofy voice, then an old lady voice. That way she's choosing the strong voice from several choices.

Then she can picture the voice in her head. And go through responding to the various things the voice says. She could even tell it it's mommy is very disappointed in it for the things it says ;-)

Probably the worst thing is that it's so unexpected. As with most unexpected new events, most people get scared and freeze up. And that freezing up makes the event scarier than it is. For most people falling down the stairs is frightening. They panic. They stiffen up. They flail. But stunt people practice exactly that. They know how to react when they fall so they don't get hurt because they've practiced falling a lot. Before they practiced, it was scary for them too. And she can practice responding to the voice so when it happens she has ways to react.

If she doesn't mind action, maybe watching movies about stunt people would help. She can see them doing things that would frighten most people but because they've practiced a lot, it's easy for them. There's a good one about two stunt women, Jeannie Epper and Zoë Bell, one who did the stunts for Wonder Woman (and loads of other female characters) and the other who did the stunts for Xena and The Bride in Kill Bill. It's called Double Dare. (Netflix has it.)

This might be less helpful than the guided imagery, but if she thinks she's the only one who hears voices, perhaps showing her the idea of shoulder angels would help. The idea that we have both a self serving voice and a social voice in our heads is as old as our social brains. But people have been writing about the idea in terms of angels for nearly 2000 years.

This one's cute. And acrobatic too :-)

http://youtu.be/A1wRdpAz3oM

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

A note sent from the side:
________________

I think this TED Talk by 
Eleanor Longden about her experience of hearing voices might be helpful for the original poster.


She talks about learning how to listen to the voices.

She has also started the Hearing Voices network, which might be something else useful to look into...
_________________

Vicki Dennis


If she doesn't mind action, maybe watching movies about stunt people would help. She can see them doing things that would frighten most people but because they've practiced a lot, it's easy for them. There's a good one about two stunt women, Jeannie Epper and Zoë Bell, one who did the stunts for Wonder Woman (and loads of other female characters) and the other who did the stunts for Xena and The Bride in Kill Bill. It's called Double Dare. (Netflix has it.)"

Joyce, do you remember the name of this movie? I have Netflix but not very competent searching.  Barely do it by titles.

vicki


On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 6:12 AM, Joyce Fetteroll jfetteroll@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

I would bet most people hear voices in the form of whispers and thoughts that form into words. It's just that for some people like your daughter the voices are clearer so sound like actual voices.

If it's a voice that's talking to her, then she can talk back to it.

Probably the problem is that it frightens her. Which makes her feel weak and small. Maybe some guided imagery will help her. Have her close her eyes and picture herself as strong and powerful. If she's a word lover, throw in some thesaurus words related to staunch. Build that picture up with her. Ask her what her hands look like. What do her arms look like. What is she wearing on her feet? What is she wearing on her head? What does her face look like. What does her strong face look like? What does her fierce face look like?

Then ask her what her powerful self can say to the voice. Walk though several ideas until she finds one or a handful she likes. Have her speak forcefully, firmly, no nonsense. If she enjoys playing with the voices, she can also say it meekly, then a goofy voice, then an old lady voice. That way she's choosing the strong voice from several choices.

Then she can picture the voice in her head. And go through responding to the various things the voice says. She could even tell it it's mommy is very disappointed in it for the things it says ;-)

Probably the worst thing is that it's so unexpected. As with most unexpected new events, most people get scared and freeze up. And that freezing up makes the event scarier than it is. For most people falling down the stairs is frightening. They panic. They stiffen up. They flail. But stunt people practice exactly that. They know how to react when they fall so they don't get hurt because they've practiced falling a lot. Before they practiced, it was scary for them too. And she can practice responding to the voice so when it happens she has ways to react.

If she doesn't mind action, maybe watching movies about stunt people would help. She can see them doing things that would frighten most people but because they've practiced a lot, it's easy for them. There's a good one about two stunt women, Jeannie Epper and Zoë Bell, one who did the stunts for Wonder Woman (and loads of other female characters) and the other who did the stunts for Xena and The Bride in Kill Bill. It's called Double Dare. (Netflix has it.)

This might be less helpful than the guided imagery, but if she thinks she's the only one who hears voices, perhaps showing her the idea of shoulder angels would help. The idea that we have both a self serving voice and a social voice in our heads is as old as our social brains. But people have been writing about the idea in terms of angels for nearly 2000 years.

This one's cute. And acrobatic too :-)

http://youtu.be/A1wRdpAz3oM

Joyce



Sandra Dodd

Double Dare (Joyce said it was called).

lucy.web


With the dying feeling, it helped her to become friends with it. We used to say hi to it and just recognize it was about, talk about the feelings and to the dying feeling as if it was an actual entity, and that really helped and she barely has those feelings anymore. 

Part of my past professional work involved using creative writing techniques to enable people to work through emotional trauma.   I did one long project with a lady - let's call her Margaret - who heard voices and had long been on medication for it.   We made paper dolls for each of her voices, and then wrote down on each doll the characteristics of the voice ... So you and your daughter might make a boy paper doll, decorate it, and write down 'likes to hurt animals' or some such.    Then, because Margaret really loved fairy tales, we acted out, and then rewrote her favourite fairy tale, but using her voices paper dolls as the main characters.   My only stipulation was that the 'bad' voices must have the roles of 'good' characters in the fairy story.   When we worked on retelling the story, we were both amazed at how Margaret 'discovered' that her voice characters were able to do kind things (in the case of the 'bad' voices) or wicked things (in the case of the 'good' voices).   We used her paper dolls in as many situations and well-loved stories as we could.  Over time, Margaret realised that she could control the voices, instead of them controlling her.

Reading what the original poster wrote about her daughters 'dying feeling', it strikes me that playing with the voices in some way might be equally beneficial.

Lucy
__

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

 I am not a therapist or mental health worker but I would look back and make sure nothing happen to her.
Because the voices are  telling her to do things like hurt another it could be there is some anger inside.

I remember feeling like shaking and animal ( and I was always such and animal lover) but I did not act on it.

It could be that the move is what triggered this anger and maybe she needs to do more physical things to get some of it out?

My daughter is 8 and she absolutely loves animals! She has been into animals since she was little. She is also pretty rough handling them although much better than she was and she gets better  as she ages and matures.
She just does not have  a gentle hand.

 I still reminder her all the time. Sometimes she thinks she is being gentle!  And she is not doing it to hurt them or because she wants to be rough !

 She is lucky she has cows too and cows , even baby ones, are big, strong and tough animals and she can play with them in a less than gentle away! The calves actually love to run around with her. The big dog too!

 She is just not a delicate girl and it takes me being there and reminding her ( without nagging) to be gentle.

I am not concerned about voices. My son had imaginary friends when he was little and I had them too . I also remember telling my parents that they talked to me although I do not remember hearing them.

 Maybe getting in touch with one of the people Sandra has listed in her page they can give you some ideas because the only thing I would be worried is if she acts on it and hurts an animal or something like that.

http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy

 
 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Thursday, September 4, 2014 8:24 AM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
Double Dare (Joyce said it was called).



Megan Valnes

I am only 7 months into the unschooling life,  but I feel compelled to write on this.  My sister was a diagnosed schizophrenic and my 25 year old niece (said sister's daughter) was also recently diagnosed.  This is an extremely hard diagnosis to make and usually symptoms of this disease do not show themselves until late adolescence years,  which was true for both my sister and my niece.   Also, these types of mental disorders are usually genetic, and in our case, our great aunt was dubbed "crazy" at a fairly young age (late teens).  I write this not to scare you, but 8 sounds quite young,  and perhaps there was a traumatic event that precipitated this that you are not aware of.  Or maybe you were even there and it wasn't traumatic for you,  so you can't associate with it. 


I agree with the others to look into therapy with some of the referrals listed on the site and see where that leads you.


Warmly,
Megan


naomicfisher@...


'I said if they are thoughts, you can choose to listen to them or push them away somehow. When she's had anxiety before, we've tried to use the strategy of not feeding the anxiety too much just talking about it but not too much that it takes over'

Talking about anxiety will not make it take over if a parent can stay calm and if the parent does not make the child feel that their anxiety is dangerous. Anxiety does not work like that.  Anxiety increases when we try to avoid it or pretend it is not there, not when we talk about it openly - although that option may be more painful in the short term for a parent as they will hear clearly how anxious their child is. 

Voices are thoughts and studies have found that about 5% of all people  hear voices. The difference between a voice and another thought is that voices feel like they come from outside and are not part of our usual thoughts.  

The problem with trying to push away thoughts is that they can come back more strongly, and it can take a lot of mental energy to try to continue to push them away. If the voices make her anxious (or if they happen when she is anxious) and she tries to push that anxiety away, that could make things more complicated in the longer term.

It might help her to know that in the same way as she doesn't have to do something just because she thinks about doing it, she doesn't have to do anything because a voice tells her too.  You could think of some examples for her and she can probably think of more - she can think of jumping but she doesn't have to jump, for example. She can think of hurting the guinea pigs but she doesn't have to do it.  

 It might help her to know that it is normal for lots of people to hear voices and it doesn't mean anything is wrong with her. 

There is another choice beyond listening or pushing away. She could listen, acknowledge it  in some way and then choose what she wants to do. To do that, it helps to get some distance from the voices.   Sometimes it helps people to say out loud  'I am hearing a voice telling me to .....'.  Or she could imagine the voice being spoken by in different ways. Has she read Harry Potter? Sometimes it helps to imagine fears and thoughts as being like the Bogarts  in Harry Potter which can be transformed into something funny - so if she hears a voice she could play around with transforming it into a voice which speaks at triple speed, or a voice which gets very quiet and then very loud, or a voice which starts going backwards, or a voice which gets confused and starts  to squeak. Or she could imagine them being spoken as if on a TV, so she could turn the volume up or down and rewind or fast forward.  The aim is to make the voices less scary and to make what they say feel less significant for her. 

 If you can show her that they don't scare you, she will be more likely to feel comfortable discussing them with you - and the more you can make them just part of life and normal and things that happen to her and to other people, the less likely they are to continue to upset  her. 

Regarding trauma, something that seems insignificant to an adult can cause post-traumatic symptoms in a child - it does not have to be a big incident. She may not know herself what it is (if indeed it is due to trauma, it might not be) but you could talk about worrying things that have happened, discuss your move and how it affected you all, just keep talking about things that might be worrying her and show that you are open to those sorts of discussions and it doesn't make you anxious to hear about what distresses her. You might want to talk more about the incident with the cat and how that plays on her mind now.  You will know best how to bring things up with her but story telling and role play can be good ways to talk to children about things that have happened to them. 

Naomi



chris ester




On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Megan Valnes meganvalnes@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

>>>>> My sister was a diagnosed schizophrenic and my 25 year old niece (said sister's daughter) was also recently diagnosed.  This is an extremely hard diagnosis to make and usually symptoms of this disease do not show themselves until late adolescence years,  which was true for both my sister and my niece.   <<<<<

Schizophrenia is also fairly rare, and while "hearing voices" is one of the symptoms, the larger complex of the disease has to do with a disintegration of the personality, the ability to navigate socially, the ability to think and reason.    

>>>>>>Also, these types of mental disorders are usually genetic, and in our case, our great aunt was dubbed "crazy" at a fairly young age (late teens). <<<<<<

If you look at any family, there is someone, somewhere who was "crazy".  Sometimes, there isn't someone to point at as the "patient zero" of the family crisis.   
 

>>>>>and perhaps there was a traumatic event that precipitated this that you are not aware of.  Or maybe you were even there and it wasn't traumatic for you,  so you can't associate with it. <<<<<

This is a very good point, the level of the trauma of an event  is entirely dependent on the person who experienced the trauma.  It sounds like this little girl is highly sensitive and so may be easily traumatized.  The beauty of unschooling is that the lifestyle is geared to helping a child find their comfort level and finding ways to make life sweet for the individual child, not some vision of the child or some pronouncement of what the child "should" be like.


>>>>I agree with the others to look into therapy with some of the referrals listed on the site and see where that leads you.


Warmly,
Megan<<<<

Therapists are consultants to help people find happier, more peaceful ways to navigate life.  A diagnosis is only useful to help people communicate  about behaviors and issues that people are going to therapists about.  A diagnosis is also the vehicle used to be paid by insurance.  
Chris



redknot@...

Not sure if you are already doing this, but maybe you could sleep with her at night for a few nights or more and see if that helps.

cheri.tilford@...

>>"This is an extremely hard diagnosis to make and usually symptoms of this disease do not show themselves until late adolescence"<<

true.  PTSD is a much more common reason for hearing voices in children this age.  unless there are other symptoms (difficulties with mood, affect, distinguishing what is real vs imaginary, catatonic states or other strange behaviors) I would NOT add the stress of wondering about a mental illness diagnosis to the mix. 

I worked for a time as an art therapist, and I had an 8 yo client, diagnosed with PTSD after her parents divorced, who heard voices telling her to hurt herself and others.  her dad and I helped her talk about what she heard, she drew pictures that made her happy and powerful (I didn't ask her directly to make art about the voices because she was embarrassed to talk to me about them, so I tried to help her build her sense of agency and comfort in the world), and the goal was to help her feel safe and stable in her new reality of living with just one parent.  

while the divorce for that child was the obvious main event, other seemingly minor events (a friend ignoring her) could trigger intense anxiety and voices.  

for a sensitive child, it could be things you'd never consider. 

as a child, I had a stable and happy family in my home, but some of my cousins (my mom's sisters' kids) we're not so lucky.  there were severe traumas that were not talked about in front of me and my siblings because we were very young (I was 3-6 during these ongoing difficulties, which I learned about later).  my mom was very stressed during this time, and while she never said anything to me, as a sensitive person I picked up on the anxiety without knowing what was happening.  I had horrible nightmares that I still remember as if they happened last night and I was terrified of dying.  because I was sensing things that weren't being spoken out loud, I kept my fears quiet, thinking I shouldn't tell anyone. 

my point in that story is that parents, in trying to protect children, can sometimes broadcast their anxiety through their silence.  while silence about the specifics of horrible things that happen to other children can be appropriate, I think it's important to acknowledge fear and anxiety, and the way one comforts and soothes those feelings, openly.  if the mom is anxious or fearful, find someone with whom those feelings can be faced, expressed, expunged, transformed, etc - hiding doesn't work.  (I'm not saying this is happening, or blaming the mom, just pointing to a possibility)

what I would do is find more times and places to help her feel her own power, strength, and resilience, and confront any feelings of fear or resistance in myself.  


cheri


Elicia Faul

 


On Saturday, September 6, 2014 1:08 PM, "cheri.tilford@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
>>"This is an extremely hard diagnosis to make and usually symptoms of this disease do not show themselves until late adolescence"<<

true.  PTSD is a much more common reason for hearing voices in children this age.  unless there are other symptoms (difficulties with mood, affect, distinguishing what is real vs imaginary, catatonic states or other strange behaviors) I would NOT add the stress of wondering about a mental illness diagnosis to the mix. 

clear="none">
I worked for a time as an art therapist, and I had an 8 yo client, diagnosed with PTSD after her parents divorced, who heard voices telling her to hurt herself and others.  her dad and I helped her talk about what she heard, she drew pictures that made her happy and powerful (I didn't ask her directly to make art about the voices because she was embarrassed to talk to me about them, so I tried to help her build her sense of agency and comfort in the world), and the goal was to help her feel safe and stable in her new reality of living with just one parent.  

while the divorce for that child was the obvious main event, other seemingly minor events (a friend ignoring her) could trigger intense anxiety and voices.  

for a sensitive child, it could be things you'd never consider. 

as a child, I had a stable and happy family in my home, but some of my cousins (my mom's sisters' kids) we're not so lucky.  there were severe traumas that were not talked about in front of me and my siblings because we were very young (I was 3-6 during these ongoing difficulties, which I learned about later).  my mom was very stressed during this time, and while she never said anything to me, as a sensitive person I picked up on the anxiety without knowing what was happening.  I had horrible nightmares that I still remember as if they happened last night and I was terrified of dying.  because I was sensing things that weren't being spoken out loud, I kept my fears quiet, thinking I shouldn't tell anyone. 

my point in that story is that parents, in trying to protect children, can sometimes broadcast their anxiety through their silence.  while silence about the specifics of horrible things that happen to other children can be appropriate, I think it's important to acknowledge fear and anxiety, and the way one comforts and soothes those feelings, openly.  if the mom is anxious or fearful, find someone with whom those feelings can be faced, expressed, expunged, transformed, etc - hiding doesn't work.  (I'm not saying this is happening, or blaming the mom, just pointing to a possibility)

what I would do is find more times and places to help her feel her own power, strength, and resilience, and confront any feelings of fear or resistance in myself.  


cheri




Nicole Robinson

When I read this post, it started to sound very familiar.  I too heard voices for a while when I was ten years old.  Based on my experience, I think your daughter is feeling very insecure right now.  I agree with other comments that she has experienced a kind of trauma and is reacting to it in this way.  It's not your fault.  I think you're on the right track by staying with her and comforting her.  It may take her some time to deal with her feelings and the voices.  When I heard my voices I was feeling very disconnected from other people and my community.  Community involvement, volunteering, and being more involved with your nest may help.  I was in public school and still not doing well, so don't feel that homeschooling is contributing.  Counseling may help.  It will get better with time.  Good luck.