Disturbing images
Sandra Dodd
1) I just wrote how much I love this group, and then the difficult problem below arose.
2) Before I read it, I wrote this about the Wednesday chat:
http://chatnotes-unschooling.blogspot.com/2014/09/movies-tv-and-little-videos-september-3.html
Request for an anonymous post to Always Learning
I am dealing with a situation I could really use some guidance and clarity on. My kids are 5 and 6 years old, and really love a particular video game character. We have done all sorts of activities, games, art, etc., based around this character. My daughter especially loves watching YouTube videos that have this character in them, and we have discovered some really great shows, fan art, etc., this way. Up until this past week, I felt really positive and happy about their YouTube usage.
This past week, however, my daughter stumbled across some pornographic video game remakes featuring characters from a variety of different video games. These games had lots of disturbing (to me) images in them, and initially my daughter wanted to watch them by herself and told her dad and I that we couldn't watch with her. Sometimes she will want to watch videos by herself, or want to watch something that she doesn't want her brother to watch, but she will almost always welcome her dad or me to watch along with her. So I was already concerned when she told us not to watch with her. Then a little later, she said she would let me watch with her. When I saw what she was watching, I was very disturbed. I did not say so to her because I didn't want her to shy away from showing me videos out of fear that I wouldn't approve. She asked me a few questions about what was going on, and I asked her some questions to figure out what she thought was going on. She didn't realize there was anything sexual about the videos, just that they were gross and that it looked like they were hurting themselves. I did say that the videos were weird and gross and that I didn't like watching them.
I don't want to overreact, but I had a very visceral reaction to watching these videos with her and feel very strongly that they are not appropriate. Both kids have watched videos with cussing in them, and I don't have a problem with that in the same way, although I cringe when they use the words they see in the videos with people who are most likely uncomfortable with children using that kind of language. It does not happen frequently, but it has happened more than once or twice. I do remind them frequently when we are on our way to an outing with people who are particularly upset by that kind of language and when we come across a word they haven't heard before, that those aren't words to use around other people. I have also told them not to use certain of the words around me because they upset me as well. They don't always respect this boundary, though.
I know from past experience and knowing my kids that my daughter will not respond well to me asking or telling her not to watch that kind of video again. I am worried she may talk about it with friends and the repercussions of that could be pretty bad. I am also worried that it is probably illegal for her to watch that kind of video and for me to watch it with her. She probably won't talk about it with other kids since she didn't even want me to see it with her, but she could and that concerns me. I don't think she is seeking this particular style of video out, but we have watched nearly everything else on YouTube that involves her favorite character, and now we are getting to some of the seedier, more adult stuff. I would love some suggestions on how to approach this situation. Thank you.
2) Before I read it, I wrote this about the Wednesday chat:
http://chatnotes-unschooling.blogspot.com/2014/09/movies-tv-and-little-videos-september-3.html
Request for an anonymous post to Always Learning
I am dealing with a situation I could really use some guidance and clarity on. My kids are 5 and 6 years old, and really love a particular video game character. We have done all sorts of activities, games, art, etc., based around this character. My daughter especially loves watching YouTube videos that have this character in them, and we have discovered some really great shows, fan art, etc., this way. Up until this past week, I felt really positive and happy about their YouTube usage.
This past week, however, my daughter stumbled across some pornographic video game remakes featuring characters from a variety of different video games. These games had lots of disturbing (to me) images in them, and initially my daughter wanted to watch them by herself and told her dad and I that we couldn't watch with her. Sometimes she will want to watch videos by herself, or want to watch something that she doesn't want her brother to watch, but she will almost always welcome her dad or me to watch along with her. So I was already concerned when she told us not to watch with her. Then a little later, she said she would let me watch with her. When I saw what she was watching, I was very disturbed. I did not say so to her because I didn't want her to shy away from showing me videos out of fear that I wouldn't approve. She asked me a few questions about what was going on, and I asked her some questions to figure out what she thought was going on. She didn't realize there was anything sexual about the videos, just that they were gross and that it looked like they were hurting themselves. I did say that the videos were weird and gross and that I didn't like watching them.
I don't want to overreact, but I had a very visceral reaction to watching these videos with her and feel very strongly that they are not appropriate. Both kids have watched videos with cussing in them, and I don't have a problem with that in the same way, although I cringe when they use the words they see in the videos with people who are most likely uncomfortable with children using that kind of language. It does not happen frequently, but it has happened more than once or twice. I do remind them frequently when we are on our way to an outing with people who are particularly upset by that kind of language and when we come across a word they haven't heard before, that those aren't words to use around other people. I have also told them not to use certain of the words around me because they upset me as well. They don't always respect this boundary, though.
I know from past experience and knowing my kids that my daughter will not respond well to me asking or telling her not to watch that kind of video again. I am worried she may talk about it with friends and the repercussions of that could be pretty bad. I am also worried that it is probably illegal for her to watch that kind of video and for me to watch it with her. She probably won't talk about it with other kids since she didn't even want me to see it with her, but she could and that concerns me. I don't think she is seeking this particular style of video out, but we have watched nearly everything else on YouTube that involves her favorite character, and now we are getting to some of the seedier, more adult stuff. I would love some suggestions on how to approach this situation. Thank you.
Joyce Fetteroll
*** I did say that the videos were weird and gross ***
If you say they're weird and gross then she's someone who watches videos that are weird and gross. It's very helpful to keep personal opinions as personal opinions and not express them as some universal knowledge that everyone agrees with.
I hope others come along with better answers, but my first thought is that she's going to watch whether you like it or not until her curiosity is satisfied. She might sneak. She might watch at a friend's. But if she feels she needs to sneak, she'll feel icky about being curious.
So you could say you'd prefer she call you to watch with her so you can answer her questions. Let her know that the images are confusing so it's hard to figure out what's going on. Keep your answers simple.
Then make it *real* easy for her to call you. Don't make it easier for her to watch on her own. And make it *real* comfortable for her to be with you. Don't make it more comfortable for her to do it alone. She might still. But don't bring negativity and tension with you. Try to see it through her eyes as cartoon characters acting in ways that don't make a lot of sense. It may be she keeps watching in order to figure out what's going on. But the exaggeration and stuff left unshown make it confusing.
Kids don't have real life knowledge of sex to make sense of exaggerated sex. Kids know hitting. They know getting bumps and bruises. So they know if a character gets hit on the head and sees birds and a big bump rises, they know it's not true, but they know or can guess what it represents.
Joyce
If you say they're weird and gross then she's someone who watches videos that are weird and gross. It's very helpful to keep personal opinions as personal opinions and not express them as some universal knowledge that everyone agrees with.
I hope others come along with better answers, but my first thought is that she's going to watch whether you like it or not until her curiosity is satisfied. She might sneak. She might watch at a friend's. But if she feels she needs to sneak, she'll feel icky about being curious.
So you could say you'd prefer she call you to watch with her so you can answer her questions. Let her know that the images are confusing so it's hard to figure out what's going on. Keep your answers simple.
Then make it *real* easy for her to call you. Don't make it easier for her to watch on her own. And make it *real* comfortable for her to be with you. Don't make it more comfortable for her to do it alone. She might still. But don't bring negativity and tension with you. Try to see it through her eyes as cartoon characters acting in ways that don't make a lot of sense. It may be she keeps watching in order to figure out what's going on. But the exaggeration and stuff left unshown make it confusing.
Kids don't have real life knowledge of sex to make sense of exaggerated sex. Kids know hitting. They know getting bumps and bruises. So they know if a character gets hit on the head and sees birds and a big bump rises, they know it's not true, but they know or can guess what it represents.
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
-=-Sometimes she will want to watch videos by herself, or want to watch something that she doesn't want her brother to watch, but she will almost always welcome her dad or me to watch along with her.-=-
I wish more people had responded. I asked on the side for ideas from four people who aren't in this dicsussion and none responded, so I feel obligated to write something.
What I would do is to say no, if there's something she can't share with you, it's not okay for her to watch it.
I would (have have) told my kids that there are some things we could get in trouble for, and getting in trouble with social services or the police could mean the end of unschooling. So there were boundaries that way—don't do illegal or rash things.
Telling her without any more detail than that that there are things people put up that are soon taken down because they're not at all nice, and maybe not legal, and that you could get in trouble for letting her watch those things might help.
-=-I don't want to overreact, but I had a very visceral reaction to watching these videos with her and feel very strongly that they are not appropriate. -=-
Can you increase the "safe search" level on your youtube or google settings? That can be irritating; just this week, Holly switched user names and found herself safety-set so that she couldn't even get into Kid Snippets and those are mild (and wonderful, too).
If you find things she likes better, she will probably forget about those other videos. Move away from the favorite character, maybe. and find other stuff.
-=- I have also told them not to use certain of the words around me because they upset me as well. They don't always respect this boundary, though. -=-
Don't say that it's because it upsets you, then. Tell them "It is NOT okay to use that word. Stop." And don't say it like you're tlaking to a poodle. Some moms have a sing-songy delivery that suggests that everything they say is tentative and optional.
If they press, say if they aren't able to know when it's not okay to use those words, they need to stop watching videos with those words in them. There are two other families I know who told their kids (8, 9 or so) that it was okay to watch Minecraft walkthroughs with bad language as long as they didn't bring the language out into the house, into the air.
-=-I am worried she may talk about it with friends and the repercussions of that could be pretty bad.-=-
Yes. THAT is why you should tell her no. Not anything about your delicate feelings, but the truth of the possibility of social problems. It's about being a good person (considerate, careful) and not. Some unschoolers seem to miss that aspect of being a child's partner—coaching, and guarding the integrity of the team. If she uses those words outside, you will be perceived as a bad mom. Part of being a good mom is helping them behave appropriately. Too much inappropriate behavior can get children removed from the parents. I wouldn't use it like a fright tactic, but mentioning it calmly, if something or someone has given her the idea that she can do anything she wants to, is honest and true.
Pornography lands people in jail. Not little girls, but grown men. People lose jobs, elected office, their computers, for having some kinds of pornography, or for selling it certain ways. You can't tell her all that, but it might help you with clarity to remember it.
-=- I don't think she is seeking this particular style of video out, but we have watched nearly everything else on YouTube that involves her favorite character, and now we are getting to some of the seedier, more adult stuff. I would love some suggestions on how to approach this situation. Thank you. -=-
If there are things on a station that plays on Roku or that you can get on DVD, maybe move the focus to the TV and away from the iPad or computer or wherever she's finding the other things in a sidebar, or whatever.
Sandra
I wish more people had responded. I asked on the side for ideas from four people who aren't in this dicsussion and none responded, so I feel obligated to write something.
What I would do is to say no, if there's something she can't share with you, it's not okay for her to watch it.
I would (have have) told my kids that there are some things we could get in trouble for, and getting in trouble with social services or the police could mean the end of unschooling. So there were boundaries that way—don't do illegal or rash things.
Telling her without any more detail than that that there are things people put up that are soon taken down because they're not at all nice, and maybe not legal, and that you could get in trouble for letting her watch those things might help.
-=-I don't want to overreact, but I had a very visceral reaction to watching these videos with her and feel very strongly that they are not appropriate. -=-
Can you increase the "safe search" level on your youtube or google settings? That can be irritating; just this week, Holly switched user names and found herself safety-set so that she couldn't even get into Kid Snippets and those are mild (and wonderful, too).
If you find things she likes better, she will probably forget about those other videos. Move away from the favorite character, maybe. and find other stuff.
-=- I have also told them not to use certain of the words around me because they upset me as well. They don't always respect this boundary, though. -=-
Don't say that it's because it upsets you, then. Tell them "It is NOT okay to use that word. Stop." And don't say it like you're tlaking to a poodle. Some moms have a sing-songy delivery that suggests that everything they say is tentative and optional.
If they press, say if they aren't able to know when it's not okay to use those words, they need to stop watching videos with those words in them. There are two other families I know who told their kids (8, 9 or so) that it was okay to watch Minecraft walkthroughs with bad language as long as they didn't bring the language out into the house, into the air.
-=-I am worried she may talk about it with friends and the repercussions of that could be pretty bad.-=-
Yes. THAT is why you should tell her no. Not anything about your delicate feelings, but the truth of the possibility of social problems. It's about being a good person (considerate, careful) and not. Some unschoolers seem to miss that aspect of being a child's partner—coaching, and guarding the integrity of the team. If she uses those words outside, you will be perceived as a bad mom. Part of being a good mom is helping them behave appropriately. Too much inappropriate behavior can get children removed from the parents. I wouldn't use it like a fright tactic, but mentioning it calmly, if something or someone has given her the idea that she can do anything she wants to, is honest and true.
Pornography lands people in jail. Not little girls, but grown men. People lose jobs, elected office, their computers, for having some kinds of pornography, or for selling it certain ways. You can't tell her all that, but it might help you with clarity to remember it.
-=- I don't think she is seeking this particular style of video out, but we have watched nearly everything else on YouTube that involves her favorite character, and now we are getting to some of the seedier, more adult stuff. I would love some suggestions on how to approach this situation. Thank you. -=-
If there are things on a station that plays on Roku or that you can get on DVD, maybe move the focus to the TV and away from the iPad or computer or wherever she's finding the other things in a sidebar, or whatever.
Sandra
K Pennell
I bet you can change the safety settings on the computer, so she won't run across them or similar things inadvertently. It isn't like your six year old went looking for that, she found it inadvertently. That may take care of the problem anyway. I'd make sure she doesn't watch.
You can try explaining "these things are really not for kids" or "these things are things you
can't watch. It could get Mom and Dad in trouble" if you think she could understand and be responsive to that. It isn't, really, about your feelings.
Anne Melfo
I have a 12 yr old son who closely follows toy and movie critic websites, all on YouTube. Occasionally, the critiques are too "adult" -- I tell him, "OK, I know this cracks you up, but it's my job to protect you from potentially creepy stuff, so it's time to move on."
Re: changing settings on the computer -- yes, there are many safeguards that
can be put into place. But why would we allow our children unsupervised access to something that could potentially traumatize or endanger them?
On Thursday, September 4, 2014 9:13 AM, "K Pennell mrsringsabre@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:
I bet you can change the safety settings on the computer, so she won't run across them or similar things inadvertently. It isn't like your six year old went looking for that, she found it inadvertently. That may take care of the problem anyway. I'd make sure she doesn't watch.
You can try explaining "these things are really not for kids" or "these things are things you
can't watch. It could get Mom and Dad in trouble" if you think she could understand and be responsive to that. It isn't, really, about your feelings.
Sandra Dodd
This is from an unschooling friend of mine. I know her son, too; he's nine or so. I changed the name to Vaugn (so sorry if anyone here has a son named Vaugn.)
______________________________
The first thing that occurred to me was that I don't think she is being clear enough with her kids if they are continuing to do things around other people that she has told them not to do. I'd be a bit concerned about this
-=- I cringe when they use the words they see in the videos with people who are most likely uncomfortable with children using that kind of language. It does not happen frequently, but it has happened more than once or twice. -=-
And also about this
-=- I have also told them not to use certain of the words around me because they upset me as well. They don't always respect this boundary, though. -=-
Vaugn does hear swear words in some of the videos he watches but he wouldn't use them around other people. If he did I would think that if he wasn't ready to be conscious of where and how to use those words then I wouldn't want him watching videos that contained them. I think it's about responsibility and if he isn't ready to be responsible for managing his choice of words around other people (output) then I'd need to be more careful about managing his exposure to those things (input).
Also, if it were Vaugn I would be very concerned if he wanted to watch something and he didn't want me to watch it with him. Again I don't think it would happen but if it did I would tell him that if it wasn't something he thought we could watch together it was most likely something that it wasn't a good idea for him to see at his age. He knows that we don't pay strict attention to age ratings but we do think about whether, for example, a particular TV series is appropriate for him to watch.
But this part
-=- I know from past experience and knowing my kids that my daughter will not respond well to me asking or telling her not to watch that kind of video again. -=-
is beyond my experience and I don't know what I would do about it. I know that Vaugn *would* listen to me if I said something wasn't suitable for him and he wouldn't want to watch it.
I think it's very important to be clear when something is actually illegal. I think she needs to be clear (for herself initially) whether something is illegal. And if it illegal is she needs to be clear with the child that it is and she needs to stop the child from watching it. It's a bit like wearing a seatbelt. It's not optional.
If Vaugn did see something that was harmful but not illegal through some random surfing I would say that there is a lot of stuff on the internet that isn't very nice and it's not good for children to see it. And I know he would trust me on that and not want to watch it. If he saw something illegal I would tell him that he must not watch it or he would be breaking the law and causing me to break the law. I would tell him that if he came across anything like that again he should close down the window and/or come and get me. Generally he is right next to me anyway (as you know) if he is doing computer things. So I'd be able to see straight away if there was something that was making him feel uncomfortable. And I think at his age I much prefer it that way.
______________________________
The first thing that occurred to me was that I don't think she is being clear enough with her kids if they are continuing to do things around other people that she has told them not to do. I'd be a bit concerned about this
-=- I cringe when they use the words they see in the videos with people who are most likely uncomfortable with children using that kind of language. It does not happen frequently, but it has happened more than once or twice. -=-
And also about this
-=- I have also told them not to use certain of the words around me because they upset me as well. They don't always respect this boundary, though. -=-
Vaugn does hear swear words in some of the videos he watches but he wouldn't use them around other people. If he did I would think that if he wasn't ready to be conscious of where and how to use those words then I wouldn't want him watching videos that contained them. I think it's about responsibility and if he isn't ready to be responsible for managing his choice of words around other people (output) then I'd need to be more careful about managing his exposure to those things (input).
Also, if it were Vaugn I would be very concerned if he wanted to watch something and he didn't want me to watch it with him. Again I don't think it would happen but if it did I would tell him that if it wasn't something he thought we could watch together it was most likely something that it wasn't a good idea for him to see at his age. He knows that we don't pay strict attention to age ratings but we do think about whether, for example, a particular TV series is appropriate for him to watch.
But this part
-=- I know from past experience and knowing my kids that my daughter will not respond well to me asking or telling her not to watch that kind of video again. -=-
is beyond my experience and I don't know what I would do about it. I know that Vaugn *would* listen to me if I said something wasn't suitable for him and he wouldn't want to watch it.
I think it's very important to be clear when something is actually illegal. I think she needs to be clear (for herself initially) whether something is illegal. And if it illegal is she needs to be clear with the child that it is and she needs to stop the child from watching it. It's a bit like wearing a seatbelt. It's not optional.
If Vaugn did see something that was harmful but not illegal through some random surfing I would say that there is a lot of stuff on the internet that isn't very nice and it's not good for children to see it. And I know he would trust me on that and not want to watch it. If he saw something illegal I would tell him that he must not watch it or he would be breaking the law and causing me to break the law. I would tell him that if he came across anything like that again he should close down the window and/or come and get me. Generally he is right next to me anyway (as you know) if he is doing computer things. So I'd be able to see straight away if there was something that was making him feel uncomfortable. And I think at his age I much prefer it that way.
Sandra Dodd
From a dad in the UK (names changed by me; I've given the child the name "Jimbo," my first husband's name).
__________________________________________________
"With great power comes great responsibility". With the power to know and use swear-words comes the responsibility to use them in the right situations and not the wrong ones. When I discuss swearing with Jimbo, it's from the point of view of learning how to swear (i.e. where and when to say what, where and when not to say what). Parents who never swear in front of their kids deprive them of some useful data about what is and is not OK where and when*.
Wrt the law, we have once or twice needed to make it clear to Jimbo that he doesn't have a choice because of what the law says, and that it's our responsibility to obey the law and to make sure that he does. He knows that doing something that leaves us in breach of the law isn't an option, and that some of what we do wrt him may be because of our legal duty rather than anything he or we want or don't want. (Example - he once wanted to sit in an aircraft seat during take-off without fastening his seat-belt. This was when he was too big to sit on an adult's lap. We told him that he had to sit in the seat with the belt on, because the law said so.) I think he also knows that there could be extreme cases where if we don't fulfil our legal duties wrt him, someone else (from the local authority, for example) will do it instead of us, in a manner of their own choosing. There is obviously a fine line to be drawn here - you don't want to control a child by saying, in effect, "You have to do as I say or someone from the council will come and take you into care."
In Britain (and I think it's the same in the USA), it's the individual's responsibility to be aware of the law as it applies to whatever they do. A parent needs to know their rights and duties under the law as a parent. Most probably don't, and I'm pretty sure we don't know all the applicable law, even though as HEers we probably look into at least some aspects of it more than most.
Jimbo self-censors, and I think he sees it as being for his own protection rather than for "compliance" reasons. For example, before he had ever seen Star Wars 3, I mentioned in passing (not as part of "advice" about its suitability for him) that I thought it was a fair bit "darker" than the previous two (which he had seen). He avoided watching it for some time (2 years?) thereafter, and eventually only watched it after I realised that he had effectively "X-rated" it, and provided clear assurances that I thought he would be fine with it by then (which it turned out he was).
When he watches a DVD, it's the same set-up as when he uses his computer - an adult is nearly always sitting with him, or near him, or at least floating around somewhere pretty nearby. His "screen time" is nearly always an experience he shares (at least passively) with one of us. If content comes up which causes me concern, I often respond first by making myself more aware of his response to it (is he tensing up, for example). Next up would be a question from me to see what sense he was making of it. Outright intervention would be a third or fourth line of defence. The DVD format is good, because it can be paused. We can have a side-conversation (initiated by me or by him - he usually has the remote and I ask him to pause if I want it paused) about matters arising from it without missing anything. He is pretty intolerant of real-time TV because it can't be paused.**
It has to be said that I've seen him sit through episodes of South Park, for instance, that I felt contained some pretty edgy stuff but what he "isn't ready for" seems not even to touch the sides. It's as if he just hadn't noticed it.
Most people's working definition of a "spoiled" child (it seems) has to do with whether they get what they ask for when they ask for it because they ask for it. My definition is different. It has to do with my perception of the parents' reasons for saying "yes" or "no". If the parent is saying "yes" (or backing away from something) because they're scared of what the child will do if they say "no", then that child is spoiled. IMO partnership with one's children cuts both ways - the parent doesn't coerce the child and the child doesn't coerce the parent. It's the parents' duty not to let things slip into a relationship where they are scared of saying "no" (when they have good reason to say "no" - and not just for their own convenience). Relevance in this case? The parent says "I have also told them not to use certain of the words around me because they upset me as well. They don't always respect this boundary, though." Several other passages seem to point to the parent being inhibited from expressing their own response to something for fear of the child's response to that. This smacks of spoiled child and parental inhibition. I suspect that this "inappropriate content" presenting issue reflects a broader problem with the parent/child relationship. Have the parents inadvertently conditioned the child to expect parental restriction *whenever* a parent expresses an aversive response to something? Something seems to be obstructing the natural process by which a child (esp. those as young as 5 or 6) in rapport with a parent will use the parent's emotional state and behaviour as a model.
One reason why a lot of this issue is beyond our direct experience is that our relationship with Jimbo doesn't take us there. In one way, that disqualifies us from making more specific helpful comments about how to deal with it. In another way, it qualifies us perfectly to comment on how not to get into this problem in the first place, which may in turn point towards how to get out of it once in.
Sorry if that sounds smug - it undoubtedly is smug - but it could also be helpful.
[that dad]
* Not criticising this as a choice, particularly in parents who never swear at all, or only swear very rarely. Just seems to me that if (appropriate) swearing is a fairly normal part of the parent's repertoire, the child could actually benefit from the adult modelling it. My wife hardly ever swears. The inconsistency doesn't seem to harm Jimbo at all.
** I understand that modern "broadcast" TV can have a hard-drive element where it can be paused, replayed or viewed at some other time, like a DVD. We haven't got such a thing, which is what gives rise to Jimbo's preference for DVD in our house.
__________________________________________________
"With great power comes great responsibility". With the power to know and use swear-words comes the responsibility to use them in the right situations and not the wrong ones. When I discuss swearing with Jimbo, it's from the point of view of learning how to swear (i.e. where and when to say what, where and when not to say what). Parents who never swear in front of their kids deprive them of some useful data about what is and is not OK where and when*.
Wrt the law, we have once or twice needed to make it clear to Jimbo that he doesn't have a choice because of what the law says, and that it's our responsibility to obey the law and to make sure that he does. He knows that doing something that leaves us in breach of the law isn't an option, and that some of what we do wrt him may be because of our legal duty rather than anything he or we want or don't want. (Example - he once wanted to sit in an aircraft seat during take-off without fastening his seat-belt. This was when he was too big to sit on an adult's lap. We told him that he had to sit in the seat with the belt on, because the law said so.) I think he also knows that there could be extreme cases where if we don't fulfil our legal duties wrt him, someone else (from the local authority, for example) will do it instead of us, in a manner of their own choosing. There is obviously a fine line to be drawn here - you don't want to control a child by saying, in effect, "You have to do as I say or someone from the council will come and take you into care."
In Britain (and I think it's the same in the USA), it's the individual's responsibility to be aware of the law as it applies to whatever they do. A parent needs to know their rights and duties under the law as a parent. Most probably don't, and I'm pretty sure we don't know all the applicable law, even though as HEers we probably look into at least some aspects of it more than most.
Jimbo self-censors, and I think he sees it as being for his own protection rather than for "compliance" reasons. For example, before he had ever seen Star Wars 3, I mentioned in passing (not as part of "advice" about its suitability for him) that I thought it was a fair bit "darker" than the previous two (which he had seen). He avoided watching it for some time (2 years?) thereafter, and eventually only watched it after I realised that he had effectively "X-rated" it, and provided clear assurances that I thought he would be fine with it by then (which it turned out he was).
When he watches a DVD, it's the same set-up as when he uses his computer - an adult is nearly always sitting with him, or near him, or at least floating around somewhere pretty nearby. His "screen time" is nearly always an experience he shares (at least passively) with one of us. If content comes up which causes me concern, I often respond first by making myself more aware of his response to it (is he tensing up, for example). Next up would be a question from me to see what sense he was making of it. Outright intervention would be a third or fourth line of defence. The DVD format is good, because it can be paused. We can have a side-conversation (initiated by me or by him - he usually has the remote and I ask him to pause if I want it paused) about matters arising from it without missing anything. He is pretty intolerant of real-time TV because it can't be paused.**
It has to be said that I've seen him sit through episodes of South Park, for instance, that I felt contained some pretty edgy stuff but what he "isn't ready for" seems not even to touch the sides. It's as if he just hadn't noticed it.
Most people's working definition of a "spoiled" child (it seems) has to do with whether they get what they ask for when they ask for it because they ask for it. My definition is different. It has to do with my perception of the parents' reasons for saying "yes" or "no". If the parent is saying "yes" (or backing away from something) because they're scared of what the child will do if they say "no", then that child is spoiled. IMO partnership with one's children cuts both ways - the parent doesn't coerce the child and the child doesn't coerce the parent. It's the parents' duty not to let things slip into a relationship where they are scared of saying "no" (when they have good reason to say "no" - and not just for their own convenience). Relevance in this case? The parent says "I have also told them not to use certain of the words around me because they upset me as well. They don't always respect this boundary, though." Several other passages seem to point to the parent being inhibited from expressing their own response to something for fear of the child's response to that. This smacks of spoiled child and parental inhibition. I suspect that this "inappropriate content" presenting issue reflects a broader problem with the parent/child relationship. Have the parents inadvertently conditioned the child to expect parental restriction *whenever* a parent expresses an aversive response to something? Something seems to be obstructing the natural process by which a child (esp. those as young as 5 or 6) in rapport with a parent will use the parent's emotional state and behaviour as a model.
One reason why a lot of this issue is beyond our direct experience is that our relationship with Jimbo doesn't take us there. In one way, that disqualifies us from making more specific helpful comments about how to deal with it. In another way, it qualifies us perfectly to comment on how not to get into this problem in the first place, which may in turn point towards how to get out of it once in.
Sorry if that sounds smug - it undoubtedly is smug - but it could also be helpful.
[that dad]
* Not criticising this as a choice, particularly in parents who never swear at all, or only swear very rarely. Just seems to me that if (appropriate) swearing is a fairly normal part of the parent's repertoire, the child could actually benefit from the adult modelling it. My wife hardly ever swears. The inconsistency doesn't seem to harm Jimbo at all.
** I understand that modern "broadcast" TV can have a hard-drive element where it can be paused, replayed or viewed at some other time, like a DVD. We haven't got such a thing, which is what gives rise to Jimbo's preference for DVD in our house.
Pam Sorooshian
On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 11:16 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:Parents who never swear in front of their kids deprive them of some useful data about what is and is not OK where and when*.
They can learn that from seeing other people use it inappropriately, though. It doesn't need to be their parents. I don't curse or swear or use "bad words" - in front of my children or not. I just don't. Neither does my husband. Not a conscious decision, but my parents didn't and I had little exposure to it until I was in middle school and I thought my friends doing it sounded silly like they were pretending to be grown up.
I have used some strong language to great effect maybe 3 or 4 times in my life. It is such a shock to be people if they hear it out of my mouth, that it has a huge impact.
I don't care, don't even notice, what language other people use unless it is really out of place (job interview for a professor, for example).
My kids use whatever language they use very appropriately and don't use much strong language in front of my husband or me because it feels weird to them to do that. It's okay with me either way.
-pam
Pushpa Ramachandran
We have run into a similar issue with youtube with DD ( aged 5) and there have been times when she has wanted to watch and having an infant along side that needs much care, I have not always been able to watch with her as much as I used to previously..also when the younger wants to be exactly accessing the very same tablet/laptop that her sister has:)
Since we ran into some highly inappropriate content on My Little Pony my husband created/built a curated content site called "child tube". This lets DD still feel like she has a search option but all the videos are preselected by me..so like she would have a pool of 50 odd videos that she could browse through and view on a particular topic..
when we had a window of time to watch together, we would go back to regular youtube..
It worked great for a while, but she has been off of youtube for a while now because of other issues like having a problem with live watching coz of internet streaming, plus our bandwidth runs out which seems to affect my work calls, so we have been downloading a lot of videos for her at night while the bandwidths are better..
But reading this post on disturbing images, I thought something like this might be helpful for other families who have young children on youtube.., I wanted to share the link for it..
It's entirely free, but people need to ask for access and my husband can activate it for them..
If lots of people find it useful, it might be a fun project for him to continue working on and improving..
while it says community on the page, so far we have only used this for my own daughters video bank so to speak, but once people start marking videos as 'safe' they will start seeing it show up in a stream.. If anyone from here ends up using it, I would love to hear from them about their experience with it..
Thanks,
Pushpa
On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:49 AM, Pam Sorooshian pamsoroosh@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 11:16 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:Parents who never swear in front of their kids deprive them of some useful data about what is and is not OK where and when*.
They can learn that from seeing other people use it inappropriately, though. It doesn't need to be their parents. I don't curse or swear or use "bad words" - in front of my children or not. I just don't. Neither does my husband. Not a conscious decision, but my parents didn't and I had little exposure to it until I was in middle school and I thought my friends doing it sounded silly like they were pretending to be grown up.
I have used some strong language to great effect maybe 3 or 4 times in my life. It is such a shock to be people if they hear it out of my mouth, that it has a huge impact.
I don't care, don't even notice, what language other people use unless it is really out of place (job interview for a professor, for example).
My kids use whatever language they use very appropriately and don't use much strong language in front of my husband or me because it feels weird to them to do that. It's okay with me either way.
-pam