Ashley Dashevsky

I've been a member of this group for about a year and a half now, and have been reading and absorbing books and websites on the topic of unschooling for longer than that. I usually prefer to observe and read/learn from the discussions posted, but I would love some feedback regarding one question, as it is the one aspect of the unschooling lifestyle I'm struggling with in my family.

To give you some background, my oldest child is 2.5 years old. As a baby, she never developed much of an interest in solid food, preferring to nurse for sustenance. I became pregnant with her sister when she was around 15 months old, and as my milk supply began to drop, we began offering her cow's milk in a bottle since she still preferred nursing and milk to solid food. Once her sister was born, she continued nursing. She now nurses at least twice as often as her 7 month old sister. She is very petite, at 22.5 pounds, and has fallen off the growth charts. We offer a variety of solid foods often throughout each day, and she will occasionally take a bite or two, but only if it is offered to her, and usually only if she is absorbed in something on TV or deep in play. We usually place pieces of food in her mouth for her while she is absorbed, because if we just place them in front of her she doesn't touch them. Sometimes she accepts the food, other times she rejects it. She nurses or asks to nurse at least 20-30 times/day, so it is obvious to me that this is what she prefers most of the time for sustenance.

When she DOES ask for food, it is always sweet foods. She will eat Oreos, ice cream, cookies, candy, chocolate, etc. She requests only those types of foods. We offer her yogurt, quesadillas, chicken, pancakes, finger foods, anything and everything you can think of. She rejects those offers or says she wants cookies or ice cream instead. The concepts of allowing children to make their own choices regarding food intake, and not controlling food make complete sense to me on a philosophical level, but I just can't imagine her ever making "balanced" food choices, so it worries me. At this point, I'm okay with breast milk continuing to be her main source of nutrition. I just worry that "allowing" her to consume cookies and ice cream almost every time she decides to eat solid food is doing her a disservice, since she is only 2.5 and has little nutritional knowledge. I also can't imagine that she will ever wean on her own. Do you all have any perspectives to share with me to help me see this in another light? Or insight into the situation that I may not have? I truly value the experience and wisdom I've seen shared in these posts. Thank you.

Sandra Dodd

-=- as it is the one aspect of the unschooling lifestyle I'm struggling with in my family.-=-

Your question is about weaning, though, and that's not an unschooling topic, really.

"Unschooling lifestyle" isn't the best way to think of this.  If you can look at principles and why you do what you do, that will help more than thinking there is a template, or a set of rules, to create "the unschooling lifestyle."

-=-the one aspect ... I'm struggling with -=-

"Struggle" isn't a good word to use, either.  Don't fight or flail.  Relax.

-=- She is very petite, at 22.5 pounds, and has fallen off the growth charts.-=-

Are you small, or your husband?  Grandparents?  Is she normal range for her genetics?
You don't need to tell us, but if she's from giant people, there might be something wrong.  If she's from small people, that's something to remind yourself of.

-=-not controlling food make complete sense to me on a philosophical level, but I just can't imagine her ever making "balanced" food choices, so it worries me. -=-

If you think trying to force her to eat would be helpful, you could try that.  If you don't think it would be helpful, what are your other options?
You don't need to tell us, either.  But if you've chosen what you believe in and there's no reason to suspect she's wasting away, finding ways not to struggle or worry seems better.

-=- I just worry that "allowing" her to consume cookies and ice cream almost every time she decides to eat solid food is doing her a disservice, since she is only 2.5 and has little nutritional knowledge.-=-

Look at your options and do what seems good to you.

At 2.5, she could end up in school.  We're not dealing with unschooling, really, but with attachment parenting.  So I know you might get good answers here, but you should remember that you're not AT an unschooling point yet.  You could, though consider what would change if she were to go to daycare.  How would she eat then?  Might she be interested in that? Would it help her to wean and would it help you not to worry?

If you don't consider it, you can't choose.  

-=- I also can't imagine that she will ever wean on her own. -=-

La Leche League would probably be a better source for ideas on this than an unschooling discussion.
People can't imagine that kids would learn to read without being taught, but it happens.  
I can't imagine a child NOT wearning on her own eventually.

If she's healthy and active and her nursing isn't bothering you and if the baby is also thriving, maybe that's all you need.

Sandra


Clare Kirkpatrick

She's making awesome food choices, if you want her to have a balanced diet,  if that's your goal. Breastmilk is a complete food - better than pretty much anything else :)


Sent from Samsung Mobile

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 18, 2014, at 8:56 PM, Ashley Dashevsky ashley.dashevsky@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

> She nurses or asks to nurse at least 20-30 times/day, so it is obvious
> to me that this is what she prefers most of the time for sustenance.

The shear number of times she nurses suggests to me that she can't get as many calories as her body wants. It would also explain why she's so small. Babies will stop when they feel full. She probably hasn't felt that fullness for a long time so has gotten used to stopping each nursing by some other signal. Perhaps when the breast is empty.

Why she didn't move onto other foods earlier is certainly an intriguing question. At this point the "can't get full" feeling that may help babies get intrigued by other foods that would get them more calories may just feel normal to her. Maybe.


> When she DOES ask for food, it is always sweet foods. She will eat Oreos, ice cream, cookies, candy, chocolate, etc. She requests only those types of foods. We offer her yogurt, quesadillas, chicken, pancakes, finger foods, anything and everything you can think of.

So you're trusting her preference for the breast but not trusting her preference for sweet foods?

She has higher calorie needs than what you can supply for her. She's accepting foods that are calorie dense (fatty and sugary) -- that is lots of calories in small packages -- with calories that are immediately available to use (sugary). Maybe -- and this is a wild guess -- her stomach size hasn't kept up with her growth because it's never able to be full? Or maybe it's always been smaller than average anyway? (Did she nurse significantly more frequently as an infant than your second child?)

I'd focus on the calorie dense foods she indicates she prefers. Bake cookies and muffins at home. You can even make ice cream at home. (Pumpkin ice cream would have some nice nutrients in it.) Don't skimp on the sugar and fat. (Fat is essential for little kids' growth.) But add in some extras -- oatmeal, raisins, dried cranberries, nuts, carrots, coconut, pumpkin -- to them so she has opportunities to expand what she eats. If you're clever with baking -- or willing to become clever! :-) -- come up with a basic recipe for cookies and muffins that you can then split into batches and add things to. That way you don't have 2 dozen chocolate chip cookies. You can have a bunch of different kinds for her to try each time you bake.

Speaking of kinds ... Kind makes a lot of different sweet bars that are very tasty and packed full of seeds and nuts and fruits. They're a bit pricy bought individually, but you could buy all the different kinds singly to find the ones she likes so you can get them cheaper in boxes. (Or big cartons from Walmart or Amazon. Which would, of course, prompt a shift in taste in her! ;-) They're intentionally calorie and nutrient dense since they were originally marketed to athletes who burn up calories like babies ;-)

Quaker also makes some very tasty bars called Real Medleys. One is a Peach almond multigrain fruit and nut bar.

Joyce

Joyce Fetteroll


On Jun 19, 2014, at 7:01 AM, Joyce Fetteroll jfetteroll@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

her stomach size hasn't kept up with her growth

Oops. Sorry. That's a myth.

But we do decide what "full" feels like by how much or how little we eat. It could be her sense of "full" is coming from how much milk she can get from your breast and not from actually being full.

Maybe. Possibly.

Joyce

Megan Valnes

-=-Quaker also makes some very tasty bars called Real Medleys. One is a Peach almond multigrain fruit and nut bar.-=-

To follow on this line of thought, Lara Bars are also a wonderful tasting sweet snack full of nutrients and calories.  They make all kinds of flavors.  Also, baked sweet potatoes with lots of butter and brown sugar might intrigue her to eat.  I recently unknowingly bought these great tasting kids chocolate nutritional shakes (I thought they were just regular chocolate milk drinks) and my kids love them!  And their friends love them too :).  They are called: Orgain Healthy Kids Organic Nutritional Shake.  I bought mine at Costco,  but they also sell them on Amazon. They come in little individual cartons with straws and have calories, protein, and vitamins/minerals. Plus, according to my kids, they taste really good!  I'm happy they turned out to be nutritional because my 5 year old hardly eats either except for oreos and ice cream, but he loves these drinks.

Warmly,
Megan

Cheri Tilford

>>I just worry that "allowing" her to consume cookies and ice cream almost every time she decides to eat solid food is doing her a disservice, since she is only 2.5 and has little nutritional knowledge<<

my 3.5 yo was a late eater, and still nurses several times a day. ice cream has been her preferred food since she could sign the words "cold food". she tells me -with a giant smile- that vanilla ice cream tastes like mommy's milk. sometimes she'll eat ice cream 3 times a day, or more. I stopped putting it in a bowl and just give her the whole carton with a spoon on the couch with her iPad - she can eat to her heart's content while watching her favorite videos, and the big carton doesn't melt as fast as a small bowlful. she'll sometimes let me feed her raspberries between bites.

I spent a small amount of time about a year ago fretting about "too much ice cream". sometimes she'll finish a half gallon all by herself in a week. but sometimes she'd not ask for it for a few days. I noticed (after looking back) a week or so of heavy ice cream consumption preceded a growth spurt - all of a sudden she'd have a whole new array of phrases and words, or she'd grow out of another pair of pants. her body knew what it needed - really good fats for brain development, sugar for energy, all in a delicious almost-like-breastmilk package. I also noticed ice cream has similar protein and carbohydrates to whole wheat bread, with lots more fat, making it better for growing brains and bodies.

had I applied my own "nutritional knowledge" (influenced by ever-changing food science which I constantly read, then change my mind about what's "healthy"; and my own disordered eating history going back to my teens) I may have denied her body what it knew it needed, and likely would have made her feel upset/angry with me for not allowing her what she wanted. bad on all fronts.

I'm so glad, largely thanks to this group which I've been following for almost 3 years, that I trust my daughter to know what she wants. in fact, she just asked me for ice cream, so I'll wrap this up.

maybe look into an ice cream maker where you can make custard, which has egg yolks for added nutrients?

cheers-
cheri

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I am with Sandra when she pointed out genetics. If your family is petit it makes sense that she is.

If I had a young child that only liked sweets I would make more sweets available and not try to change that, specially if that is all she ate.

Make some ice creams ( Ice cream is milk, cream sugar and something else!!) Get some great ice cream, frozen yogurt for her,
Make smoothies, Make smoothies with ice cream.

Make cookies. Cookies are flour ( different kinds , whole  ) eggs, sugar ( or honey and other sweet goods) and butter ( butter is full of great stuff including vitamin D for growing strong bones!)

You are not seeing that all this food she likes is actually good!

If having eggs and whole wheat bread is good why is a cookie that has the same ingredients and plus ( you can also add fruit and nuts to it) not good?

Give her more of what she likes, keep offering the rest without pressure. Pressure will really turn her away from eating other things. Kids can feel the pressure and that is NOT healthy!

 Make cakes! Cakes with fruits, eggs, butter, sugar ( YES Little kids do need lots of energy and sugar gives them that ! It is not evil!)

 Make and offer more! Not less. More of what she likes!  Stop the pressure.

Make milk shakes!
I make an easy frozen yogurt with Greek yogurt, condensed milk and fresh fruit that is delicious! Recipes abound online!

Look for ice cream where the ingredients are milk, cream, sugar and whatever else she likes!

Peanut butter chocolate is great! Lots of energy and protein! WHY NOT?

Chocolate covered fruit! Chocolate has energy and tons of anti-oxidants! Plus calories a child needs!!!

 For a petit child that  needs more calories  trying to feed her little vegetables may not be the way to go! A good chocolate ice cream may be what she needs!

Frozen custard~! It has eggs! and is delicious!

Stop struggling! Stop reading about how she needs her veggies and feeds that kid the high caloric, high energy food she is clearly showing she needs.

Alex Polikowsky


 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Thursday, June 19, 2014 9:23 AM, "Joyce Fetteroll jfetteroll@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 

On Jun 19, 2014, at 7:01 AM, Joyce Fetteroll jfetteroll@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

her stomach size hasn't kept up with her growth

Oops. Sorry. That's a myth.

But we do decide what "full" feels like by how much or how little we eat. It could be her sense of "full" is coming from how much milk she can get from your breast and not from actually being full.

Maybe. Possibly.

Joyce


BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

When my daughter was young she ate very little all the time. She did that for years. Last year she started eating more food at 7 years old.

Some kids eat like birds! With Gigi it was two bites here., a bite there. All day. All day I offered  food and let her eat what she wanted. 

She was always tall but I think that is genetics!
 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On , BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:


I am with Sandra when she pointed out genetics. If your family is petit it makes sense that she is.

If I had a young child that only liked sweets I would make more sweets available and not try to change that, specially if that is all she ate.

Make some ice creams ( Ice cream is milk, cream sugar and something else!!) Get some great ice cream, frozen yogurt for her,
Make smoothies, Make smoothies with ice cream.

Make cookies. Cookies are flour ( different kinds , whole  ) eggs, sugar ( or honey and other sweet goods) and butter ( butter is full of great stuff including vitamin D for growing strong bones!)

You are not seeing that all this food she likes is actually good!

If having eggs and whole wheat bread is good why is a cookie that has the same ingredients and plus ( you can also add fruit and nuts to it) not good?

Give her more of what she likes, keep offering the rest without pressure. Pressure will really turn her away from eating other things. Kids can feel the pressure and that is NOT healthy!

 Make cakes! Cakes with fruits, eggs, butter, sugar ( YES Little kids do need lots of energy and sugar gives them that ! It is not evil!)

 Make and offer more! Not less. More of what she likes!  Stop the pressure.

Make milk shakes!
I make an easy frozen yogurt with Greek yogurt, condensed milk and fresh fruit that is delicious! Recipes abound online!

Look for ice cream where the ingredients are milk, cream, sugar and whatever else she likes!

Peanut butter chocolate is great! Lots of energy and protein! WHY NOT?

Chocolate covered fruit! Chocolate has energy and tons of anti-oxidants! Plus calories a child needs!!!

 For a petit child that  needs more calories  trying to feed her little vegetables may not be the way to go! A good chocolate ice cream may be what she needs!

Frozen custard~! It has eggs! and is delicious!

Stop struggling! Stop reading about how she needs her veggies and feeds that kid the high caloric, high energy food she is clearly showing she needs.

Alex Polikowsky


 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Thursday, June 19, 2014 9:23 AM, "Joyce Fetteroll jfetteroll@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 

On Jun 19, 2014, at 7:01 AM, Joyce Fetteroll jfetteroll@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

her stomach size hasn't kept up with her growth

Oops. Sorry. That's a myth.

But we do decide what "full" feels like by how much or how little we eat. It could be her sense of "full" is coming from how much milk she can get from your breast and not from actually being full.

Maybe. Possibly.

Joyce




Megan Valnes

Yes, I agree as well with Alex and Sandra on the genetics. All of my kids have always been on the low side of weight percentiles, which is not surprising, seeing that my husband and I have both always been thin. I was not interested much in food until I was in my early 20s. If she's actually suffering physically from lack of food and nutrients, then I would start to worry, but if she's just thin and picky, then she's probably just thin and picky!

Warmly,
Megan

plaidpanties666@...

>>my oldest child is 2.5 years old. As a baby...<<

She's still a baby. Lots of kids nurse until 3 and some to 4 and 5 years old. It might help to keep that in mind. When a new baby comes along, an older child can seem so old and capable and sophisticated by contrast - but a 2yo is still a baby.


>> I just worry that "allowing" her to consume cookies and ice cream almost every time she decides to eat solid food is doing her a disservice, since she is only 2.5 and has little nutritional knowledge.<<


She's getting lots of nutrition from nursing - what she might not be getting enough of are calories and fats, so she wants more of those. That's not really a problem Especially because she's nursing and you don't have to worry about vitamins. Help her load up on fats and calories. It might be that your own diet is to lean for her.


It could also be that she's nursing for emotional reasons and her slight stature is a red herring. If you weren't small as a toddler, ask around extended family to get an idea of the kinds of growth patterns the pop up in your family. My daughter has never had a big appetite but was very sturdy and muscular as a young child. Now, at 12, she's rather wispy. In another few years she might be an amazon.


 >>I also can't imagine that she will ever wean on her own.<<


It's possible she'll wean after your younger child! So many things are tied up in nursing - it's not just about food. For many children it's an important emotional connection. If your daughter is emotionally sensitive, then she could be nursing because the new baby has made her feel insecure - she might need to be "babied" more herself. Or she could have some kind of physical sensitivity and is using nursing to comfort herself because she's always on edge (from sound, texture, light, motion... being a constant irritant). She could have the idea that you're trying to push her away so she's clinging harder.


It can be startling to have a child who has really big emotional needs. My stepson had an enormous need for attention as a young child. It helped a lot to accept that as a real need - no matter how excessive it seemed - and offer him lots of attention, preferably before he started clamoring for it. It seemed at first like it would be exhausting, but it turned out that when I gave him lots of attention up front he didn't need to clamor for it - so it was less stressful and I felt like I had a little bit of control of my personal space back again.


---Meredith

Ashley Dashevsky

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful responses. After digesting everything and contemplating, I realized my true "concern" and reason I posted the question, is her choice of solid foods/sweets, not necessarily the frequency of nursing.  I am a dietitian by trade (which is perhaps the reason I've "struggled" so much with this). After reading all of the responses, I feel a deep comfort and peace in the realization that I can just RELAX and trust that she's responding to her body's true needs, and that her desires for these types of food are directly linked to this. 

>>Make and offer more! Not less. More of what she likes!  Stop the pressure. Give her more of what she likes, keep offering the rest without pressure. Pressure will really turn her away from eating other things. Kids can feel the pressure and that is NOT healthy!<<

So much truth in these words, especially based on my knowledge of my daughter and how she responds to any sort of pressure. I will indeed begin to give her more of what she requests, instead of giving it begrudgingly (no matter how subtle.) 

I am fairly petite (5'3", 110 pounds), and my mother-in-law is 5 feet tall and thin. So genetics likely play a part in her stature. I appreciate all your creative suggestions regarding cookie and ice cream recipes. And I especially appreciate the reminders about all the benefits of the ingredients in some of her favorite foods. My perspective has completely shifted, and I am very grateful. It also helps to realize that, based on your responses, her breastfeeding habits and solid food preferences are shared by other toddlers in this community. In the past I've been made to feel, based on comments from doctors and family, that something must be "wrong." Thanks for offering fresh perspectives and advice that truly allow me to feel a sense of peace and calm and TRUST in my daughter.





On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 7:40 PM, plaidpanties666@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

>>my oldest child is 2.5 years old. As a baby...<<

She's still a baby. Lots of kids nurse until 3 and some to 4 and 5 years old. It might help to keep that in mind. When a new baby comes along, an older child can seem so old and capable and sophisticated by contrast - but a 2yo is still a baby.


>> I just worry that "allowing" her to consume cookies and ice cream almost every time she decides to eat solid food is doing her a disservice, since she is only 2.5 and has little nutritional knowledge.<<


She's getting lots of nutrition from nursing - what she might not be getting enough of are calories and fats, so she wants more of those. That's not really a problem Especially because she's nursing and you don't have to worry about vitamins. Help her load up on fats and calories. It might be that your own diet is to lean for her.


It could also be that she's nursing for emotional reasons and her slight stature is a red herring. If you weren't small as a toddler, ask around extended family to get an idea of the kinds of growth patterns the pop up in your family. My daughter has never had a big appetite but was very sturdy and muscular as a young child. Now, at 12, she's rather wispy. In another few years she might be an amazon.


 >>I also can't imagine that she will ever wean on her own.<<


It's possible she'll wean after your younger child! So many things are tied up in nursing - it's not just about food. For many children it's an important emotional connection. If your daughter is emotionally sensitive, then she could be nursing because the new baby has made her feel insecure - she might need to be "babied" more herself. Or she could have some kind of physical sensitivity and is using nursing to comfort herself because she's always on edge (from sound, texture, light, motion... being a constant irritant). She could have the idea that you're trying to push her away so she's clinging harder.


It can be startling to have a child who has really big emotional needs. My stepson had an enormous need for attention as a young child. It helped a lot to accept that as a real need - no matter how excessive it seemed - and offer him lots of attention, preferably before he started clamoring for it. It seemed at first like it would be exhausting, but it turned out that when I gave him lots of attention up front he didn't need to clamor for it - so it was less stressful and I felt like I had a little bit of control of my personal space back again.


---Meredith


michelle_m29@...

Our oldest was always itty-bitty and breastmilk was her main source of nutrition until she was well over a year old. (It wasn't until she hit  her teens that her weight stopped making me nervous. She was always healthy and happy, but I couldn't shake the feeling that if something happened and she did get sick, she didn't have many reserves to draw from.) The solids she did eat as a baby and toddler mostly came from my plate. Would sharing what you're eating encourage your daughter to eat more?  

Our youngest, now eight, is even tinier than his sister was. He was a premie and shares her body type. IIt boggles my mind a bit that how anyone who puts away as many calories as he does can still be as skinny as he is, but he's healthy and happy and his sister grew up into a big kid just fine, so I don't worry as much this time around. 

Nutritionally dense has been my goal for a long time. Have you thought about --

Cheesecake
Banana Bread 
Zucchini Bread or Cookies
Carrot Cake 
Cookies with cream cheese frosting 
Quiche (not sure if that's sweet enough, but my kiddos like it) 
French Toast (maybe with ricotta or cream cheese layered between two slices and cut into bite size pieces)

Michelle