awa

=== You could offer him really fun and exciting drinks in a sippy cup
during the day when he might have wanted to nurse—milkshake, chocolate
milk, something he likes. ===

My Husband and I do that, but he doesn't want any substitute. He refuses
everything we offer or he agrees first but does not drink/eat it later.
Then he cries for my milk and I feel bad.
I think he is not ready yet.

=== It's not my happiest memory, but nursing him while I was nursing
Marty was VERY hard for me, physically and emotionally. It wasn't good
for Marty, either, who was six months old. ===

I fully relate to that. I tried hard to be able to nurse my son at all
after he came home from the hospital. We had a great time but I don't
have it in me to continue (I pushed my limit for half a year now and
still try to). This is hard. I feel like I need to make a stand against
my son - this makes me unhappy.

He doesn't eat much either and when he does it's usually sweets and
sugary food. I read somewhere on your page that somebody made a list of
what her child actually ate for two days. I'm doing the same now.

So far for today he had:
1 pancake with sugar & chocolate
1 Banana-Yoghurt Icecone (lots of sugar in it)
part of a bread roll (white bread)
half of a cookie
1 hot milk with some chocolate
and some sugar cubes, sweets and a sucker (small)
(and some of my milk)

This tells me.. he really likes sweet food. I know he likes fish and
potatoes, too.


=== ARE you saying yes to everything he wants? WHY?
Avoiding arbitrary and reactionary "no" is good.
Saying yes more than no is good.
Do you believe somehow that someone has required you to "say yes to
everything he wants"?
Do you think it's "the rule" for unschoolers? ===

I don't think it's a rule at all. Sometimes I say yes to soon or without
regard to my own needs. I want to be supportive and full of yesses (I
think I read this somewhere on your site, Sandra) - I feel awful when
saying no. I don't want to feel bad and disconnected, so I go for yes..
which regularly leads to me feeling overwhelmed and tired (which leads
to yelling and saying mean things and I don't want that but I
desperately want to rest). Nevertheless I realized i've been saying no a
lot more lately or talking to him in a distant command-tone just telling
hin what to do. Not lovingly. Not nicely.



Thank you for providing this list and giving me the opportunity to get
things off my chest and out of my head. It helps me realize where I
could do better and how.
Today was a very good day and I'm really happy about that. Even the past
few days were great, as I chose to talk to my child more, to explain
things, to give information I had and he had not. It took more time than
just saying no and it felt a whole lot better!

Sandra Dodd

-=- I feel like I need to make a stand against
my son - this makes me unhappy.-=-

Don't think of it that way.
Not you vs. him.

Think of it as helping him move forward, and for you to focus on nursing the younger child. You need to be a good mom to the baby, and if the older child is preventing that, and your guilt is preventing it, rearrange your thoughts.

-=-Today was a very good day and I'm really happy about that. Even the past
few days were great, as I chose to talk to my child more, to explain
things, to give information I had and he had not. It took more time than
just saying no and it felt a whole lot better!-=-

Good in general, but in particular, don't measure in days.
http://sandradodd.com/moment

-=- I want to be supportive and full of yesses (I
think I read this somewhere on your site, Sandra) - I feel awful when
saying no. I don't want to feel bad and disconnected, so I go for yes..
which regularly leads to me feeling overwhelmed and tired (which leads
to yelling and saying mean things and I don't want that but I
desperately want to rest).-=-

I've very often said "Don't do what you don't understand."

You are NOT "supportive and full of yesses" if you're feeling bad, disonnceted, overwhelmed, tired, yelling, being mean, doing things you don't want, and desperately wanting ANYthing.

This is not support.
This is not yes, in the overall average.

-=- I read somewhere on your page that somebody made a list of
what her child actually ate for two days. -=-

I like my site a lot, but you seemto be doing things because you saw them on my site. If they don't make sense, don't do them. If you do them and they make sense, very cool!

If you feel like listing foods, and it's helping you, that's fine. But it shouldn't be for this: "this tells me.. he really likes sweet food" Give him a variety and don't worry. Let him decide for real, immediate reasons. Be generous. Be kind. I don't think you should drag out the weaning. It's not working for you.

Sandra

skyjeep@...

-=- If you feel like listing foods, and it's helping you, that's fine. But it shouldn't be for this: "this tells me.. he really likes sweet food" Give him a variety and don't worry. Let him decide for real, immediate reasons. Be generous. Be kind. I don't think you should drag out the weaning. It's not working for you.-=-


In this or a previous thread I saw this:


"Don't look for rules. Look for principles."


We are a family relatively new to unschooling (coming up for a year) with a boy and a girl, 10 and 8 years old. I have been lurking on this list for a while and learning every day. We are still anxious about the choice at times (to unschool) but 95% of the time we are completely comfortable with the decision. The anxiety mainly comes from our inexperience and the learning curve we are climbing.


The food issue is an interesting one. I grew up where you ate what your mother prepared, end of story. I hated pumpkin and a few other things and my parents would still cook it - kids just didn't have a say.


We started out a bit like that, eat whats provided for you, but changed over time. We created a rule (I like to thing of them as principles now) with the kids that they didn't have to eat anything they didn't like, but they did have to try it. This gave them an out so they tried everything knowing they didn't have to eat it. As a result my kids eat most things, and many I don't eat (like sushi, olives, squid head etc). They try anything and everything.


I probably wouldn't make trying a rule today, I would just talk about the principle of trying new things and only rejecting them if they don't work for you. I would set the example by trying things myself.


We try and cook interesting food and provide things we know the kids like. We don't cook things they have tried and rejected. Some of the things my kids love are very healthy: vegetables, salad, olives, fish (and all seafood) etc. 


We have a few rules for the food providers these days:


- try and keep introducing interesting food

- provide healthy options but don't restrict food to these

- try new food openly ourselves (the adults)

- don't cook food the kids have tried and rejected


In our experience getting kids to like a variety of food is much like anything else, provide enticing alternatives and options and they will often choose the path you want them to without them even knowing it.


Cheers

Richard

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 17, 2014, at 4:25 AM, skyjeep@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

> We created a rule (I like to thing of them as principles now) with the kids
> that they didn't have to eat anything they didn't like, but they did have to try it.

That would be an agreement, not a principle. It's an agreement *if* the kids feel they can renegotiate if it's not working for them. If they can't change it, then it's a rule.

One thing is that kids aren't the same as parents. Nor should they be. Kids are dependent on us. They trust that what we will keep them safe as they explore what interests them. So when a parent says (essentially), "I want you to agree to try just one bite of whatever I think you'll like," the child will feel the pressure of the parent's greater power and knowledge.

Some kids are highly sensitive to taste, texture, sight, smell. Asking such a child to agree to one bite is like your wife asking you to try just one bite when the world of food has turned into liver, beets, overcooked spinach (or whatever you find repulsive.) My daughter had a broad range of food she enjoyed. Until it started narrowing at 4. Until puberty approached, about 11ish, there were few foods that appealed to her. Then suddenly things tasted good again and she'd try just about anything.

Sandra let her kids know if they didn't like it that they could spit it into her hand. (Which is a nice touch since you don't want them spitting it onto the table at Grandma's! ;-))

Parents can give kids information that's useful *to them*. You can let them know it's similar to something you know they like. But then let it go. Don't become emotionally invested in your child's choices. If you want to invest your emotions, invest them in creating an atmosphere where kids feel supported in trying what appeals to them AND turning down what doesn't.

Second thing is, do you have such an agreement with your friends? With your own parents? Wouldn't that seem awkward and weird and controlling?

While that's *one* test it isn't meant to be a final judgement of whether something is relationship building with kids. It is often, though, a good wake up call that an idea that sounds great in theory will feel very differently to the kids.

> I like to thing of them as principles now

A principle is an idea that applies to many situations, not one specific one. Kindness. Trustworthiness. Learning. Exploration. Support.

A collection of principles that work together to achieve some ideal is a philosophy.

> I probably wouldn't make trying a rule today, I would just talk about the principle
> of trying new things and only rejecting them if they don't work for you. I would
> set the example by trying things myself.

Even better: move talk down on your priority list. Instead, create an atmosphere that supports exploration.

It's better to be kind, to help your kids meet their needs in ways that are kind to others, to help them do things that are kind than to talk about the principle of kindness.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-The anxiety mainly comes from our inexperience and the learning curve we are climbing.-=-

"Climbing" sounds like hard work.  Ride that curve with a smile on your face! :-)
Don't look at the "curve."  it's too daunting, and a bit schoolish, to look at it as a measured course with an arc.
If you live in the moment, making choices, you're not climbing.  You're being.

-=-We created a rule (I like to thing of them as principles now) with the kids that they didn't have to eat anything they didn't like, but they did have to try it.-=-

"Have to" is a rule.  Changing the words won't change it.

-=Sandra let her kids know if they didn't like it that they could spit it into her hand. (Which is a nice touch since you don't want them spitting it onto the table at Grandma's! ;-))-=-

That was most useful at other people's parties or cookouts where there was something one of the kids was interested in trying, or maybe the host was pressing them just taste something, and I would stand by so that they could taste a tiny bit, and jettison it politely if it was yucky.  Into my hand (literally, that was the offer and a young child took me up on it a couple of times) or into a napkin if I had one.  But part of that deal was for them not to make a loud deal about spitting it out.  Not to run to a trashcan, not to make a horrible face, just quietly eject it and have something better to take the taste away. :-)

-=-We created a rule (I like to thing of them as principles now) with the kids-=-

No good.  Principles aren't rules re-named.  If you think that will work, it won't be possible for you to understand principles.

-=-I would just talk about the principle of trying new things and only rejecting them if they don't work for you. I would set the example by trying things myself.-=-

It's not a principle.  It's a rule.  Setting an example by doing the thing you're requiring them to do is magnanimously following the same rule you've made for them.

-=-We try and cook interesting food and provide things we know the kids like. We don't cook things they have tried and rejected. Some of the things my kids love are very healthy: vegetables, salad, olives, fish (and all seafood) etc. -=-

Why "try" in there?  Do.  Do cook interesting foods.  CERTAINLY provide things you know they like.  But will you really eliminate something because one person in the family doesn't like it?  The rest might.  I cook things my husband doesn't like, but not when he and I are the only two eating. :-)

By dividing foods into "very healthy" and whatever else you call the rest, you're setting up barriers and measures.  Try to elminate that terminology in your thinking.  It will help everything.  Beyond food.  It will help sleep, it will help your budget, it will help your soul.  It will improve logic, is what it will do.

-=-We have a few rules for the food providers these days:-=-
Ack.
I didn't even want to read past there.

But I did.
-=-In our experience getting kids to like a variety of food is much like anything else, provide enticing alternatives and options and they will often choose the path you want them to without them even knowing it.-=-

Unschooling will work better, and you will be a better person, if you turn away from the thought that you know what path your children should choose, and see the vast opportunities available to all of you if you accept that each step they take (hundreds of options each day) could (if you're lucky) put them on paths you could never have imagined.

If your goal is for them to choose the path you want them to without them even knowing it, that's simple manipulation.  Life can be richer and better than that.

Sandra