Phony hierarchy
melissagray808@...
Hello everyone! This is my first post and I'm crossing my fingers that it falls under all the guidelines for posting on this wonderful site.
We are the only radical unschooling family in our homeschooling community. Where we live almost all of the other homeschoolers are proud "rigorous academic over achievers" (their words!). We have only lived here for a year and half, having moved across the country from a super unschooly community where we almost never encountered any friction from others. Unschooling simply was the norm.
After being here for almost 18 months, my children and I have learned to do our own thing but we've also had to adapt in a lot of ways. "Clubs" turn into "classes" with fair regularity because the parents can't stand to let children have fun with their peers and feel the need to turn every minute into a "learning experience". "Playdates" end up with the parents pushing for the children to only play educational games that they deem appropriate. Every discussion I hear is about testing, grades, Ivy league colleges and (good grief!) Common Core. Most of this we take with a grain of salt, but there is one particular issue that is just bugging my children and me. It will probably seem ridiculous in light of the bigger picture, but it's the absolute insistence that parents are to be addressed as "Mr or Mrs Soandso" instead of by their first names.
To me, this is quite simply another way to put children in their place, and on top of the mountain of other issues we deal with in this community, it is the proverbial straw breaking the camel's back. ***I am the parent, therefore I command respect and you must address me in this very formal manner in order for you to know that I'm important and more importantly, in order for me to feel important.*** It's also another way that they keep the homeschooling community feeling schooly.
The most surprising turn of events regarding this situation is the absolute resistance I get when I tell other parents that I do not want their children to call me Mrs. Soandso, and I would prefer they address me by my first name. "Oh no! That's disrespectful!" is how they reply. But how is it respectful to go against my wishes and call me something I don't like?
I would love some guidance in opening a dialogue with these parents about this issue. I want to be respectful and kind, and speak with loving, gentle words. OR I want to get over it. Something I'm having trouble with because I feel we cowtow to this rigid homeschool community all the time and this is just one battle I want to win. I feel like I'm constantly biting my tongue (and when I'm outnumbered by twenty to one it's the only thing I can do) and this time I just can't bite it anymore.
It is occurring to me as I write this that maybe some of you prefer to be addressed by Mr or Mrs Lastname. Maybe I'm making this a radical unschooling issue and a children's rights issue when it's really not? But to me it seems that it really is an unschooling/children's rights issue and I'm assuming that most unschoolers don't feel the need to distance themselves from children in this way. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I should also add that leaving this community isn't an option. It may not be perfect, but I've looked into every alternative (including moving which is still not off the table) and we are stuck with it for now. Thank you for any advice. I look forward to reading what you have to say!
We are the only radical unschooling family in our homeschooling community. Where we live almost all of the other homeschoolers are proud "rigorous academic over achievers" (their words!). We have only lived here for a year and half, having moved across the country from a super unschooly community where we almost never encountered any friction from others. Unschooling simply was the norm.
After being here for almost 18 months, my children and I have learned to do our own thing but we've also had to adapt in a lot of ways. "Clubs" turn into "classes" with fair regularity because the parents can't stand to let children have fun with their peers and feel the need to turn every minute into a "learning experience". "Playdates" end up with the parents pushing for the children to only play educational games that they deem appropriate. Every discussion I hear is about testing, grades, Ivy league colleges and (good grief!) Common Core. Most of this we take with a grain of salt, but there is one particular issue that is just bugging my children and me. It will probably seem ridiculous in light of the bigger picture, but it's the absolute insistence that parents are to be addressed as "Mr or Mrs Soandso" instead of by their first names.
To me, this is quite simply another way to put children in their place, and on top of the mountain of other issues we deal with in this community, it is the proverbial straw breaking the camel's back. ***I am the parent, therefore I command respect and you must address me in this very formal manner in order for you to know that I'm important and more importantly, in order for me to feel important.*** It's also another way that they keep the homeschooling community feeling schooly.
The most surprising turn of events regarding this situation is the absolute resistance I get when I tell other parents that I do not want their children to call me Mrs. Soandso, and I would prefer they address me by my first name. "Oh no! That's disrespectful!" is how they reply. But how is it respectful to go against my wishes and call me something I don't like?
I would love some guidance in opening a dialogue with these parents about this issue. I want to be respectful and kind, and speak with loving, gentle words. OR I want to get over it. Something I'm having trouble with because I feel we cowtow to this rigid homeschool community all the time and this is just one battle I want to win. I feel like I'm constantly biting my tongue (and when I'm outnumbered by twenty to one it's the only thing I can do) and this time I just can't bite it anymore.
It is occurring to me as I write this that maybe some of you prefer to be addressed by Mr or Mrs Lastname. Maybe I'm making this a radical unschooling issue and a children's rights issue when it's really not? But to me it seems that it really is an unschooling/children's rights issue and I'm assuming that most unschoolers don't feel the need to distance themselves from children in this way. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I should also add that leaving this community isn't an option. It may not be perfect, but I've looked into every alternative (including moving which is still not off the table) and we are stuck with it for now. Thank you for any advice. I look forward to reading what you have to say!
Sandra Dodd
-=- Where we live -=-
Are you in the southeastern U.S.?
Unless people created something with no cultural basis whatsoever, it's not a "phony hierarchy." It's a real one.
IF you would prefer children call you by your first name, that is because you have a choice, because of your place in the hierarchy.
But because you've just moved somewhere from elsewhere, you also have a lower place in the local hierarchy. You're not from there.
-=-Every discussion I hear is about testing, grades, Ivy league colleges and (good grief!) Common Core. -=-
If you hang out with academic homeschoolers, why comment "good grief"? People who care about grades and school *will not* appreciate unschoolers. If I go to a Baptist church, they WILL be PuhRAISing GEEzuss and it will sound like that. If I go to a Catholic church they will be telling me when the next rosary rally is. I know that without going. Didn't you know without going that school-at-homers (DOH!) would be caring about grades and the core curriculum (generic or bought)?
-=-To me, this is quite simply another way to put children in their place-=-
"Quite simply" usually over simplifies. Children DO have a place in a community, in a society, in law, in culture. If you're interested in giving your children more options, it is because you (as an adult, as a parent) have the option/power to do that. It's not because children have the same rights you have. It's because you're interested in sharing some of your rights with them.
-=-It's also another way that they keep the homeschooling community feeling schooly. -=-
So? They want schoolishness and you're outnumbered.
But addressing people by titles is NOT about school. It is much larger and older than school.
-=-The most surprising turn of events regarding this situation is the absolute resistance I get when I tell other parents that I do not want their children to call me Mrs. Soandso, and I would prefer they address me by my first name. "Oh no! That's disrespectful!" is how they reply. But how is it respectful to go against my wishes and call me something I don't like? -=-
You should get over that or find other people to hang out with. If you don't want to go along with the group's culture, don't be in the group.
-=- I feel we cowtow to this rigid homeschool community all the time -=-
Kowtow. Good to know the history of a term like that. It's someone else's word. I doubt you use it much.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowtow
You're not doing that to any group you don't want to be a part of.
If you DO want to be a part of the group, you should conform to the things they were doing before you moved there.
If you don't want to conform, you should leave the group in peace.
-=-It is occurring to me as I write this that maybe some of you prefer to be addressed by Mr or Mrs Lastname. Maybe I'm making this a radical unschooling issue and a children's rights issue when it's really not? But to me it seems that it really is an unschooling/children's rights issue and I'm assuming that most unschoolers don't feel the need to distance themselves from children in this way. Please correct me if I'm wrong.-=-
Do you think there's one "right" and one "wrong" answer?
It depends. And if every single member of this group said "you're right!" it wouldn't make you right It would make this group a place that was telling you you were right. :-)
In that group, you are wrong, though, because that group has a practice and a tradition. It might be part of the culture around them. It might be that the two or three founders of that group set the tone and others have joined knowing that this was the practice.
-=-Maybe I'm making this a radical unschooling issue and a children's rights issue when it's really not?-=-
I think that is VERY true.
And as it is not a radical unschooling group, WHY are you doing that?
-=-I should also add that leaving this community isn't an option. -=-
Do you mean the place where you live?
Or do you mean attending the activities of that group of families?
Sandra
Are you in the southeastern U.S.?
Unless people created something with no cultural basis whatsoever, it's not a "phony hierarchy." It's a real one.
IF you would prefer children call you by your first name, that is because you have a choice, because of your place in the hierarchy.
But because you've just moved somewhere from elsewhere, you also have a lower place in the local hierarchy. You're not from there.
-=-Every discussion I hear is about testing, grades, Ivy league colleges and (good grief!) Common Core. -=-
If you hang out with academic homeschoolers, why comment "good grief"? People who care about grades and school *will not* appreciate unschoolers. If I go to a Baptist church, they WILL be PuhRAISing GEEzuss and it will sound like that. If I go to a Catholic church they will be telling me when the next rosary rally is. I know that without going. Didn't you know without going that school-at-homers (DOH!) would be caring about grades and the core curriculum (generic or bought)?
-=-To me, this is quite simply another way to put children in their place-=-
"Quite simply" usually over simplifies. Children DO have a place in a community, in a society, in law, in culture. If you're interested in giving your children more options, it is because you (as an adult, as a parent) have the option/power to do that. It's not because children have the same rights you have. It's because you're interested in sharing some of your rights with them.
-=-It's also another way that they keep the homeschooling community feeling schooly. -=-
So? They want schoolishness and you're outnumbered.
But addressing people by titles is NOT about school. It is much larger and older than school.
-=-The most surprising turn of events regarding this situation is the absolute resistance I get when I tell other parents that I do not want their children to call me Mrs. Soandso, and I would prefer they address me by my first name. "Oh no! That's disrespectful!" is how they reply. But how is it respectful to go against my wishes and call me something I don't like? -=-
You should get over that or find other people to hang out with. If you don't want to go along with the group's culture, don't be in the group.
-=- I feel we cowtow to this rigid homeschool community all the time -=-
Kowtow. Good to know the history of a term like that. It's someone else's word. I doubt you use it much.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowtow
You're not doing that to any group you don't want to be a part of.
If you DO want to be a part of the group, you should conform to the things they were doing before you moved there.
If you don't want to conform, you should leave the group in peace.
-=-It is occurring to me as I write this that maybe some of you prefer to be addressed by Mr or Mrs Lastname. Maybe I'm making this a radical unschooling issue and a children's rights issue when it's really not? But to me it seems that it really is an unschooling/children's rights issue and I'm assuming that most unschoolers don't feel the need to distance themselves from children in this way. Please correct me if I'm wrong.-=-
Do you think there's one "right" and one "wrong" answer?
It depends. And if every single member of this group said "you're right!" it wouldn't make you right It would make this group a place that was telling you you were right. :-)
In that group, you are wrong, though, because that group has a practice and a tradition. It might be part of the culture around them. It might be that the two or three founders of that group set the tone and others have joined knowing that this was the practice.
-=-Maybe I'm making this a radical unschooling issue and a children's rights issue when it's really not?-=-
I think that is VERY true.
And as it is not a radical unschooling group, WHY are you doing that?
-=-I should also add that leaving this community isn't an option. -=-
Do you mean the place where you live?
Or do you mean attending the activities of that group of families?
Sandra
melissagray808@...
I am in the northeast.
I have gathered from your response that this is my issue, and not an unschooling issue at all. As, I do not have another group to go to, we will just have to abide by their rules and customs. Guess I'll just have to suck it up and do my best to smile and go with the flow.
I have gathered from your response that this is my issue, and not an unschooling issue at all. As, I do not have another group to go to, we will just have to abide by their rules and customs. Guess I'll just have to suck it up and do my best to smile and go with the flow.
Sandra Dodd
-=- As, I do not have another group to go to, we will just have to abide by their rules and customs. Guess I'll just have to suck it up and do my best to smile and go with the flow.-=-
"Have to" came TWICE in that small bit of writing.
You don't have to abide by their rules. You could just go and be irritating and make your children unhappy by your complaints and frustration.
OR you could choose to adapt and encourage your children to follow the rules and customs of the place where they are because it's the way it is—some people let kids run in the house and some other houses, it's a no. In SOME houses, it's okay to sing loud and laugh at goofy poop jokes. Some houses, no. Same with stores. Same with clubs.
You could choose to convey that to your children in a merry, acceptinf fashion.
-=-Guess I'll just have to suck it up and do my best to smile and go with the flow.-=-
If you're going to feel like you're "sucking it up" that sucks. And what "it" is will probably keep you pissed off, especially as you feel you "have to."
If it's hard to smile, you will be detrimental to the situation.
But if you CHOOSE to understand and to make the best of the situation out of loving support of your children's desire to be with those other kids, that's different. That would be a choice, and a positive action, and about your children.
But you haven't said WHY you "have to" go to that group.
Why, as unschoolers, is going to a group of school-at-home families a "have to"?
Why are you, as a mom who wants to unschool, going to a homeschooling group? Choosing to go to a group you don't respect?
You don't need to tell us, really, but you should think about it in those terms.
And if you are choosing to do that for good reasons, then look at the good reasons and find a way to have a good attitude.
Sandra
Sylvia Woodman
You don't have to do anything! There are lots of unschoolers in the North East. You could choose to search them out. You could choose to go to a conference and meet other unschooling families. You could choose to start your own more relaxed homeschool group.
When I was a kid in the 1970s I was taught to call everyone Mr and Mrs Soandso. But it was the 1970s and some of my friend's parents were hippies and some were feminists who were trying to dismantle the patriarchy. They wanted me to call them by their first names. Some of them even wanted their kids to call them by their first names. To my 8 year old self it felt weird and uncomfortable. It was totally outside of my comfort zone. I really wasn't interested in having a relationship with Karen or Judy's Mom or Dad and I really didn't want to get into a political discussion with them or discuss wheat germ or the benefits of communal living with them. I wanted to eat Oreos with my friends and play in the back yard. If the norm in that group is that parents are Mr and Mrs. you should go with that. Otherwise you are making things all about YOU and perhaps making things more difficult for the kids around you. It sounds like those kids already have 99 problems in their heads. You don't need to be one of them.
Warmly,
Sylvia (Gabriella 9 & Harry 7)
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 10:59 AM, melissagray808@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
I am in the northeast.
I have gathered from your response that this is my issue, and not an unschooling issue at all. As, I do not have another group to go to, we will just have to abide by their rules and customs. Guess I'll just have to suck it up and do my best to smile and go with the flow.
Sandra Dodd
Accepting with a g (not " a merry, acceptinf fashion.")
A merry, accepting fashion. :-)
Clare Kirkpatrick
I'm a little confused why you need to go to a home education group at all? In my local area there are all manner of different home educators and different groups too...well, meetings or gatherings are better words. We go to few nowadays. Only one of my children likes playing in groups, the others prefer playing with just one or two friends at a time. So we spend our days mostly with each other, sometimes with a friend here, sometimes at a friend's house. Sometimes we visit places. Today we all went to toys r us to buy water pistols and had a water fight with my parents :)
At the weekends and after school, my kids play with their schooled neighbours, some of which have become very close friends. My oldest daughter has two close friends from her drama class.
So you can see why I'm wondering why you continue to spend time with a group of people that is causing you such stress? Why not just live your lives apart from them?
Sent from Samsung Mobile
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 19, 2014, at 4:59 PM, melissagray808@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
Guess I'll just have to suck it up and do my best to smile and go with the flow.
If you really do want to participate in the activities, you have the opportunity to show your kids how to accept other people who have different views than you do.
Accepting differences that you agree with is easy. Accepting differences that aren't to your taste is where the true show of acceptance is.
Joyce
plaidpanties666@...
>> Maybe I'm making this a radical unschooling issue and a children's rights issue when it's really not? <<
To an extent it's a cultural issue. It might help to step back a bit and ask yourself what your expectations would be of the local community if you'd moved to another country.
"Rights" is a sticky subject, one that can get you all tangled up in a hurry. It can help to step back a bit from "rights" and think about ways to be kind and gracious, approachable and generous - not just from your own perspective, but from the perspective of the people around you. From Your perspective, calling you by first name makes you kind and approachable. But if that's not the norm, if it's something odd and uncouth, then you're Not making yourself approachable, you're ungraciously demanding that people treat you differently. You're being a bit of a cultural elitist.
>> Where we live almost all of the other homeschoolers are proud "rigorous academic over achievers" (their words!). <<You've only been there a year. It can take longer than that to find the right niche in a new community, especially when you're a minority of a minority. It may be that the local homeschooling community isn't the right niche for you - it's not for me, where I live. It's split between fervent religious homeschoolers and back-to-the-land, technology rots the mind types. So getting together for homeschooling purposes doesn't work so well, but socializing with people for other reasons does - especially as my kids have gotten older and developed distinct interests. Nowadays I don't look for "homeschoolers" locally, I look for people who share my kids' interests. Some are school kids. Some are adults. Some are homeschoolers I met by chance, who don't fit in the local scene any better than we do.
---Meredith
shirarocklin@...
In our community, we spend time among homeschoolers, regular schoolers, and also religious and not religious families. Among our religious friends, its the norm to call adults by their last name, basically until you are married yourself. It is a form of showing respect, only because everyone excepts it as such. At first I found it uncomfortable to be called by my last name when there, but after many years, I've grown to enjoy it, in that situation, as the children I interact with really do seem to feel it is showing respect... and why shouldn't someone show respect to someone else? Its part of their cultural language. I've always referred to those children's parents by their last names as well, so my kids can exhibit respect for them while in their world. Recently, one of them has pretty much grown up... he's 19. We've always had some deep conversations about religion when he is home... and he slipped and called me my first name. It was very strange. I jokingly made something of it. He very quickly backtracked. But it was really cool, to see him arguing religion as a grown man, and being so fully engrossed in it that he was relating to me adult to adult, and so called me by my first name.
In our broader world, I prefer to be called by my first name. That's the convention, the language. I don't feel like either one is phony. Is it phony to call doctors by their last names? Is it phony when someone calls me ma'am? Or, on the phone with a tech/helpie person, they usually call me Mrs. X. It does show respect.
When I was growing up, I never used to 'call' my friends parents. I was very confused about what was respectful. I would avoid it at all costs. I felt very uncomfortable calling them by their first names. I think that must have been a shifting time where the norm was changing, and it wasn't yet clear what to do.
I think I've read here that unschooling means guiding our kids through the cultures/community norms they live around. How can we do that if we are uncomfortable with other ways of doing things?
When I was a student in school... I did feel like it was silly to call teachers by their last names. I thought I'd respect them just as much by their first name. And I was right and wrong. I would have still respected them. But since this is the cultural norm, this convention engenders respect unconsciously. Its built into the story in my head, so I automatically act according to a certain set of rules when I'm interacting with someone I talk to by their last name. University professors, doctors, teachers.
Shira
heatherpie@...
=As, I do not have another group to go to, we will just have to abide by their rules and customs. Guess I'll just have to suck it up and do my best to smile and go with the flow.=
Are your kids having fun at this park day? If not, you could start your own.
Are your kids having fun at this park day? If not, you could start your own.
I moved from Austin, TX where there was an unschooling park day to San Mateo, CA where there was not a couple years ago. I asked a friend of mine if she would be interested in starting an unschooling park day with me and together we did. For the first six months or so it was us and one other family. Occasionally other people would show up, but for the most part it was three families. Now there are about five families who come consistently. I've moved to another city where there is a park day for unschooling families close by and we go there now. My friend still holds the park day in San Mateo.
You might find there are at least a couple families that are more relaxed than the people you've come across so far. That could be a start for a park day.
Heather
Heather
Sandra Dodd
Heather's ideas were good, as usual. I have another idea.
-=-You might find there are at least a couple families that are more relaxed than the people you've come across so far. -=-
It doesn't need to be instead of. It could be in-addition-to, for a while. Then people wouldn't feel the need to abandon, to choose, to "good-bye" the other group in any awkward or divisive ways. If the new group doesn't thrive, the old group's still there. If the new group DOES thrive, each family can still go or not, to the old one.
Try to make it a separate, other thing, not the anti-group. Don't make a set of rules opposite the other group (like all parents must be addressed by first name only).
Sandra