Marina Moses

Hi All,
We have been deschooling from "kid centered relaxed eclectic homeschooling" since last summer. My son is 14 and it has been a year full of ups and downs. 

He has made a lot of choices this year that would cause most traditional parents to punish him. My husband and I have never been big on punitive parenting and both believe that if we come down hard on him it will only damage the relationship we have with him and make him see us as adversaries. I am having a hard time figuring out how to turn his heart another direction. We have seen the police three times. Last night was the worst though. They read him his rights (there was no arrest) and had him give a written statement. It turns out that several months ago he was involved in entering a building and vandalizing with friends. Before that it was changing a sign around (police only laughed) and before that it was a skateboarding fine.

He has smoked cigarettes and pot and tried chew. I have asked him not to saying that I don't want him breaking the law and that his brain is developing.

We are worried about his future. He will have charges pressed against him. We are likely to be responsible for a lot of money in restitution. He is more worried about protecting his friends.

The officer said that he knew these boys that Stevie likes to hang out with and that their lives are headed towards jail. We told him he can't be with them for a while but I know that isn't really going to do anything to improve the situation. My husband just suggested (to me) a drug test every Friday to determine whether he has his phone for the next week and can go anywhere! We have never resorted to this kind of parenting but we are so worried that he is not learning from his choices. 

I can't seem to interest him  in anything outside of rap music (which he listens to and writes a lot),  getting a lot of likes on instagram, and hanging out with his friends. We spend a lot of time together and we communicate quite a bit but the values he has been developing over the past year are not meshing with our family's. 

I believe a life of school would make this worse so maybe this isn't truly an unschool issue but I wonder what advise a seasoned unschooler would give to this Mama who couldn't sleep at all last night.

--
Love and Prayers,
Marina

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 14, 2014, at 9:04 AM, Marina Moses netmamaof3@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

> I am having a hard time figuring out how to turn his heart another direction.

Just a few quick questions since I'm headed for bed ..

What is the draw? What is he getting from the friendships with these kids? What are they adding that he isn't getting elsewhere?

Have you read

Parent/Teen Breakthrough: The Relationship ApproachPaperback by Mira Kirshenbaum
http://tinyurl.com/moq7577

It should come with every preteen ;-)

Joyce

Marina Moses

Yes. I've read it. Not only that,  I am sure it has had a big impact on our relationship. I don't know.  He is so socially drawn. He loves to hang out with lots of people but he doesn't want to do organized stuff. He's experienced karate,  track,  a few sports, theater, being in a band but prefers skateboarding,  snowboarding and rap battles. Unsupervised groups of kids running around.

On May 14, 2014 8:51 PM, "Joyce Fetteroll jfetteroll@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:
 


On May 14, 2014, at 9:04 AM, Marina Moses netmamaof3@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

> I am having a hard time figuring out how to turn his heart another direction.

Just a few quick questions since I'm headed for bed ..

What is the draw? What is he getting from the friendships with these kids? What are they adding that he isn't getting elsewhere?

Have you read

Parent/Teen Breakthrough: The Relationship ApproachPaperback by Mira Kirshenbaum
http://tinyurl.com/moq7577

It should come with every preteen ;-)

Joyce

D. Regan


He has smoked cigarettes and pot and tried chew. I have asked him not to ...
 
We told him he can't be with them for a while...

Work on building a trusting relationship with him, rather than setting limits, detached from him. 

We are likely to be responsible for a lot of money in restitution. He is more worried about protecting his friends.

While he feels detached from you, he will feel the need to fight for the things that are important to him.  Be more attuned to him, care about what's important to him.  He will learn better and make better choices, if he has the support of your understanding.

... we are so worried that he is not learning from his choices. 

Expecting him to "[learn] from his choices", is too detached.   Help him be in a position to make better choices.  Help him navigate difficult terrain by being his partner.  He will learn better in a more peaceful, supportive environment. 

I can't seem to interest him  in anything outside of rap music (which he listens to and writes a lot),  getting a lot of likes on instagram, and hanging out with his friends.

Embrace the interests he does have, rather than trying to get him interested in other things.  If you take interest in his interests, your relationship will improve.  Share his instagram interest, rejoice in the likes he gets.  Get to know who likes what, or what will likely get more likes etc.  Feed his interest in music.  Be open-hearted and interested in what's important to him.  That way you get to know enough to be able to come up with cool ideas, cool ways to support his interests, AND you get to know him more and share in his thoughts, hopes, desires, fears, joys, sorrows...    

We spend a lot of time together and we communicate quite a bit ...

Use some of that time together to connect with him around what's important to him.   If that's a big shift in focus for you, take it step by step.      
:)
Debbie

lisajceledon@...

< >> The more you try to pull him away from his interests, the more he will need to pull away from you in order to pursue them. Give him a better, safer option than having to follow along with his friends doing illegal things in order to get the acceptance he needs. Needs. He needs to feel accepted. If you cant give that to him, wholeheartedly, he'll find a substitute. He writes rap? That's poetry! Start looking into rap yourself, you might be surprised. It's not all always about drugs and women and money (even if that's what he's listening to), there is some that is thoughtful, political, poetical, and deep. There is a lot of underground hip hop that's like that. It's been a long time (relatively speaking, for me, I'm only 32) since I was into that stuff, but check out artists like Del (Del the funky homosapien), Nas, The Roots, A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, The Beastie Boys. Read their lyrics too. Share with him what you think he might like. Eminem is lewd, but he's also clever and intelligent. Read about the history and culture of rap/hip hop. Share interesting things you learn about it with your son. There is so much fun language play and rhyme and metaphor used in rap - if you think of it as music, as poetry, language play, art, you might start to appreciate it more, or at least appreciate the value of it to your son. Do you take him to shows? Are there open mic shows he can go to where people are rapping? Also, if you're cOncerned with the themes he likes in rap- putting down women, drugs, etc, trust that his tastes can mature. When he has less need to feel bigger and more powerful, less frustrated and stressed, more accepted and enjoyed by his family, more content with who he is, he may be less attracted to those themes, and room for new themes to pursue can grow. Lisa C

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 21, 2014, at 3:22 AM, lisajceledon@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

> Share with him what you think he might like.

Actually I would ask him to make suggestions of things you might like. Don't pretend to have a better knowledge of something he loves.

Later when you've established your own area of rap you're exploring in, then you can share what you're discovering.

Joyce

CASS KOTRBA

I think rap music is a bit like Shakespeare, in a way.  If you are not versed in the vernacular then it can be very off putting.  You hear the words & it triggers a certain meaning (or confusion) in your mind.  But what the speaker/singer is trying to convey could well be something else entirely.  Those same words have a different meaning to a person with a vastly different perspective. 
 
There are a lot of really positive changes that rap culture has had on the rest of our culture, things I've noticed as a casual observer.  Take the N-word, for example.  A word so powerful & hateful that it could only be identified by it's first letter.  The rap community took that word back, they took that hateful energy and morphed it into something else.  Now that word has 2 meanings.  Or probably more. 
 
Rap culture is continuously creating new, fresh ideas.  Last week we were watching "The Voice" & Gwen Stefani was on singing "Hollaback girl".  I thought "what the heck is a hollaback girl?".  It's a girl who is easy for the boys to get with, low self esteem.  When any ole boy holla's at her she'll holla back.  Ghetto slang.  Cool.  I have another new word. 
 
Snoop Dog is such a charming, interesting, spiritual and influential man.  If I were on the path to understand more about rap culture & it's history I think I'd start there.   I don't listen to rap music personally but I do respect it & think that overall it has had a lot of very positive effects on our culture. 
 
Who is your son particularly into?  Find out more about the words, their meanings and the people who have created an entirely new genre.  Ask your son.  Why does he like it?  What feelings or ideas is it generating that he is connecting to?  Don't see the music and his friends as alienating or threating.  They're boys trying to find their way.  Be your son's partner, friend.  His safe, soft place to turn.  Not his critic. 
 
 

Marina Moses

I appreciate all of the thoughtful answers to my post. They are all encouraging in the direction my husband and I are moving towards. 

We are not discouraging rap. Stevie has written more in the last few months than ever in his life since he has found something he loves to write. He shares his music with us and we celebrate what we can. He is a born musician and was in a band by age 9. He knows I don't like to hear the "N" word and crude stuff about women so he has been trying to introduce me to stuff I might like more. I have enjoyed some Kanye, Macklemore, and some others (I even watch Loiter Squad with him-Tyler the Creator!). My husband buys him recording equipment and software and helps him when he needs it. I am thankful for the suggestions for rappers I may like and have already started listening this morning.

Stevie shares a lot with me. He is the one who has told me about most of the stuff he has tried. My greatest concern is drugs. It always has been. My husband and I have many family members who are or have been addicts/alcoholics. I played a lot with drugs from 13 to 21. My husband was very dependent on drugs and alcohol for a long time. I don't want to parent out of fear. We both refuse to parent out of fear. I still sometimes have fear though.

At first we told Stevie we were going to do drug testing. We haven't and won't but the first knee jerk reaction isn't always thought out. He has expressed that he really likes to smoke pot. That it is fun and makes him more creative and focused. He is telling the truth. We used to smoke it. We know. I was even younger than he is when I started and I did a lot of dangerous things. If I know he is out doing dangerous things I can't help but worry for his safety.

This is the real reason I feel stuck sometimes. He does feel safe to come to us. He does it all the time. I don't feel comfortable condoning illegal and habit forming drug use and I don't feel comfortable punishing it either. I'm sure that the choice to trespass happened while high and that other harmful choices have been made that way. 

I know that punishment will just make him hide what he is sure is best for him and harm our relationship but I believe what he is choosing can potentially stunt his maturity, get him in trouble with the law, and risk his safety. When I said that I couldn't interest him in anything but rap, instagram and hanging out with friends I wasn't being totally honest or giving him proper credit. He actually has varied light changing interests. I don't think I was doing that on purpose. I hit send sooner than I should have. The real truth is that I was trying to find a way for him to turn away from his recent interest in pot and the friends who share it with him. 

I don't really know where I'm going with this. My husband and I agree that punishment, yelling and coercion never worked on us and we love him so much and don't want to push him away. Dave (my husband) says maybe he can get  it out of his system younger than we did. I am actively working on this in myself.

On an up note Stevie will probably have 10 songs released to the public by the end of the summer! He might be as good of a rapper as he is a guitar player. 

Thank you for your thoughts and ideas. 


On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 2:53 AM, Joyce Fetteroll jfetteroll@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 


On May 21, 2014, at 3:22 AM, lisajceledon@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

> Share with him what you think he might like.

Actually I would ask him to make suggestions of things you might like. Don't pretend to have a better knowledge of something he loves.

Later when you've established your own area of rap you're exploring in, then you can share what you're discovering.

Joyce




--
Love and Prayers,
Marina

CASS KOTRBA


You are afraid so you are clasping the steering wheel with white knuckles, terrified of a crash.  That makes it very difficult to steer.  Relax.  Breathe. 
 
He is going to do what he is going to do regardless of how you feel about it.  Accept it.  He is not you.  He may or may not make the same mistakes that you've made.  You can't control him or his fate.  The more you try the worse it will be.  You can give him information, love, support, safety but you cannot control the situation.  Accept him where he is.  He is an artist.  He's going to experiment with a lot of things. 
 
I live in a ski town.  I see these kids skiing moguls, doing flips, jumping off of things.  Their parents are proud & excited.  I look at them & think "Dear God I hope Ben never wants to do that!".  But he might.  And if he does I'm not going to try to stop him.  There are so many peope in extreme sports, or even regular sports, who get injured.  Fatally.  Life's a gamble.  I can give him good safety gear & good safety information but it's his decision.  It's his life. 
 
Your son might get addicted to drugs.  There is the unlikely possibility that he could even die.  Or he could experiment for awhile, gain insight and wisdom and realize that it's not something he needs in his life.  Or a million other things in the middle.  No matter what happens, it's his life.  He sounds like a pretty bright kid, though.  And he'll have two supportive parents & good life experiences to help him negotiate whatever life throws at him.
 
-Cass

Greg and Kirsty Harriman

I think as parents we want so much to pass on our learnings from our experiences to our children to help steer them from experiences similar to those we may have had ourselves, but which now in hindsight were unwise choices. I remember saying to my Mum many times “I am just going to do what I am going to do”. She knew that though it didn’t stop her from wanting to protect/advise. I felt I needed to be firm in my choices so that I could travel quite a different path to what she may have deemed the “right” one (in homeschooling I continue to). No well meant advice from years of experience and learning would have stopped me from wanting to learn for myself in my own way. Now that I am a parent I would LOVE to be able to help my children not make the same mistakes I made (just as my parents did). I now see that this isn’t necessarily how the ball rolls and to me it seems the hardest part of being a parent. The continual process of letting go. We can help inform, guide, encourage and offer points of view, but at the end of the day its their journey to travel and to make mistakes. Personally I find that heart wrenching especially when you have years of life experience you want so much to share so we can protect those we love so much.
 
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Stuck again
 
 



You are afraid so you are clasping the steering wheel with white knuckles, terrified of a crash.  That makes it very difficult to steer.  Relax.  Breathe. 
 
He is going to do what he is going to do regardless of how you feel about it.  Accept it.  He is not you.  He may or may not make the same mistakes that you've made.  You can't control him or his fate.  The more you try the worse it will be.  You can give him information, love, support, safety but you cannot control the situation.  Accept him where he is.  He is an artist.  He's going to experiment with a lot of things. 
 
I live in a ski town.  I see these kids skiing moguls, doing flips, jumping off of things.  Their parents are proud & excited.  I look at them & think "Dear God I hope Ben never wants to do that!".  But he might.  And if he does I'm not going to try to stop him.  There are so many peope in extreme sports, or even regular sports, who get injured.  Fatally.  Life's a gamble.  I can give him good safety gear & good safety information but it's his decision.  It's his life. 
 
Your son might get addicted to drugs.  There is the unlikely possibility that he could even die.  Or he could experiment for awhile, gain insight and wisdom and realize that it's not something he needs in his life.  Or a million other things in the middle.  No matter what happens, it's his life.  He sounds like a pretty bright kid, though.  And he'll have two supportive parents & good life experiences to help him negotiate whatever life throws at him.
 
-Cass

CASS KOTRBA


-=- We can help inform, guide, encourage and offer points of view, but at the end of the day its their journey to travel and to make mistakes.  Personally I find that heart wrenching especially when you have years of life experience you want so much to share so we can protect those we love so much.-=-
 
I don't think it should wrench your heart to see your child learning & growing in a direction that might be different from the one that you had in mind.  They are experimenting & exploring what works FOR THEM, what they like. 
 
Sometimes I give my daughter advice on how I would do something.  Sometimes she thinks I have good suggestions & other times she wants to do things her own way.  There were a few times in the past where I've said basically "My way is better & safer, please do it my way."  Of course the response was always resistance & insistence that she likes to do things her own way.  I've learned to give my suggestion & then stand back to support the decision that she makes.  And you know what? 9 times out of 10 her way is so much cooler than what I had in mind for her! 
 
It's not nice to secretly long for your kid to be something else.  Don't have an end product in mind, just watch the beauty unfold.  And remind yourself that a child raised without being controlled is going to make choices for different reasons than the reasons so many of us had.  If the parents are trusted, beloved friends and partners then kids will not be doing things out of rebelliousness & spite.  They'll be thinking and making choices, just as they've done in every aspect of their lives.
-Cass

Sandra Dodd

-=- If the parents are trusted, beloved friends and partners then kids will not be doing things out of rebelliousness & spite.  They'll be thinking and making choices, just as they've done in every aspect of their lives.-=-

Holly has tattoos and has messed up her hair with home-made dreadlocks.   (Eventually could be restored, or started over.)
Neither Keith nor I like those things, but we still like Holly.

It's hard not to let our opinions show sometimes, but she's 22, and we'd better be nice if we want her to continue to be thoughtful and not become rebellious or spiteful. :-)

It's never too late to screw up your relationship with your child, I guess.  

Sandra

Marina Moses

I agree with the comments here in general.  They truly encourage me. Letting go was easier for me when my kids were younger. Not being controlling over skateboarding and snowboarding is easy for me.  Letting Stevie wear superhero costumes everywhere he went for 3 years-easy. A 10 inch multicolored mohawk and ear piercing at age 8- no problem. But when they are little safety is our job too. I kept him out of the street when there were cars. I didn't let him play with a plugged in toaster. I wouldn't let him throw rocks at people. Drugs feels like a safety issue to me. 14 seems young. I have conversations with him about safety and choices.  We have a close relationship and yet it feels like neglect if I know he is out with kids who drive and get high. I am not particularly anti recreational drugs. I haven't used drugs (besides my coffee) or alcohol for years but have friends and family who range from no use to what I consider responsible use to what I consider abusive use and we have lost people to excessive use and overdose. Stevie understands all of this and assures me that he is "safe." When we have different views on safety it is hard to see what to do. My mother smoked pot with me in our own house when I was 13.  My friends thought she was cool. If their parents had known I don't think they would have agreed. If Child Protective Services would have known I think they would have taken me away (like when I was 4!). I don't want to say that I agree with his choices if he chooses things I think are unsafe but I don't want him to stop "telling on himself," which he does often because he isn't afraid of repercussions. I keep praying for the right words and I find myself using less and less words. I am listening more.



Love and Prayers,
Marina

Mette G.

>>>I don't feel comfortable condoning illegal and habit forming drug use and I don't feel comfortable punishing it either. <<<


Those aren't the only two options :) not punishing something, doesn't mean we condone it. We can disagree and still let someone make their own decisions. Sharing experiences that have had a hurtful or dangerous outcome for us, in the past, is not a bad thing to do. It is information to take into account, as everything else. The most important unschooling advice I have ever received, was that of keeping the communication channels open! I think that is absolutely alpha and omega. 

On Thursday, May 22, 2014 9:18 PM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
-=- If the parents are trusted, beloved friends and partners then kids will not be doing things out of rebelliousness & spite.  They'll be thinking and making choices, just as they've done in every aspect of their lives.-=-

Holly has tattoos and has messed up her hair with home-made dreadlocks.   (Eventually could be restored, or started over.)
Neither Keith nor I like those things, but we still like Holly.

It's hard not to let our opinions show sometimes, but she's 22, and we'd better be nice if we want her to continue to be thoughtful and not become rebellious or spiteful. :-)

It's never too late to screw up your relationship with your child, I guess.  

Sandra


lisajceledon@...

<<My greatest concern is drugs. It always has been. My husband and I have many family members who are or have been addicts/alcoholics. I played a lot with drugs from 13 to 21. My husband was very dependent on drugs and alcohol for a long time. I don't want to parent out of fear. We both refuse to parent out of fear. I still sometimes have fear though.

At first we told Stevie we were going to do drug testing. We haven't and won't but the first knee jerk reaction isn't always thought out. He has expressed that he really likes to smoke pot. That it is fun and makes him more creative and focused. He is telling the truth. We used to smoke it. We know. I was even younger than he is when I started and I did a lot of dangerous things. If I know he is out doing dangerous things I can't help but worry for his safety.

This is the real reason I feel stuck sometimes. He does feel safe to come to us. He does it all the time. I don't feel comfortable condoning illegal and habit forming drug use and I don't feel comfortable punishing it either. I'm sure that the choice to trespass happened while high and that other harmful choices have been made that way>>

Al-anon can be helpful.  It can help you learn to act less out of fear, how to spend less time trapped in fearful thinking.  It can help you learn to see what choices you have about how to respond to your son's drug use, with a focus on principles and relationship building, instead of from an angle of trying to control him.

Lisa C

CASS KOTRBA


-=- I keep praying for the right words and I find myself using less and less words. I am listening more.-=-
That sounds like progress.
 
-=- My mother smoked pot with me in our own house when I was 13. -=-
Nobody is suggesting that you buy him drugs or encourage him to use them.  But don't make your son responsible for carrying the burden of all the past mistakes made by his extended family.  That's a heavy burden & it's not his responsibility, nor is it fair.  He's just smoking a little pot, right?  Don't make him into a heroin addict in your mind.  You can choose to see him as a bright, curious, creative young man who is exploring or you can see him as a potential crack addict.  Your anxiety is your problem, don't make it his.
 
Would you feel better if he were exploring with alcohol?  Would you feel better if you lived in Colorado or Washington where pot is now regulated like alcohol?  Does it make you feel better to know that Native Americans & other traditional people believe marijuana to be a sacred gift from God for reasons similar to those that your son described as being attractive to him?  Are all drugs inherently bad?  Do you allow him to use over the counter drugs like Advil, Tylenol, Benedryl?   "Drugs" has become a very powerful word in our culture.  Break it down - drugs are not all created equally. 
 
As for the vandalism - obviously that's not good.  But it IS a learning opportunity.  Take it for that & try to help him (or give him the space to) learn from it. 
-Cass

CASS KOTRBA


It's not Stevie's responsibility to live his life in a way that is comfortable for you. 
 
One last thought - my husband's name is Rich but his mother still stubbornly insists on calling him Richie.  It drives him nuts.  He is his own man, not her little boy.  I don't know how your son feels about his name but if he's becoming a man it might be a good time to think about it.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Stuck again

 

I agree with the comments here in general.  They truly encourage me. Letting go was easier for me when my kids were younger. Not being controlling over skateboarding and snowboarding is easy for me.  Letting Stevie wear superhero costumes everywhere he went for 3 years-easy. A 10 inch multicolored mohawk and ear piercing at age 8- no problem. But when they are little safety is our job too. I kept him out of the street when there were cars. I didn't let him play with a plugged in toaster. I wouldn't let him throw rocks at people. Drugs feels like a safety issue to me. 14 seems young. I have conversations with him about safety and choices.  We have a close relationship and yet it feels like neglect if I know he is out with kids who drive and get high. I am not particularly anti recreational drugs. I haven't used drugs (besides my coffee) or alcohol for years but have friends and family who range from no use to what I consider responsible use to what I consider abusive use and we have lost people to excessive use and overdose. Stevie understands all of this and assures me that he is "safe." When we have different views on safety it is hard to see what to do. My mother smoked pot with me in our own house when I was 13.  My friends thought she was cool. If their parents had known I don't think they would have agreed. If Child Protective Services would have known I think they would have taken me away (like when I was 4!). I don't want to say that I agree with his choices if he chooses things I think are unsafe but I don't want him to stop "telling on himself," which he does often because he isn't afraid of repercussions. I keep praying for the right words and I find myself using less and less words. I am listening more.



Love and Prayers,
Marina

CASS KOTRBA


-=-   I don't know how your son feels about his name but if he's becoming a man it might be a good time to think about it.-=-
 
I know I said that was going to be the last thing but I thought of something else.  ;D  Maybe I'm onto something there.  It seems like drinking, smoking, vandalizing & shop lifting sort of take the place of traditional rights of passage that used to be valued for young men.  What does it mean to become a young man in our culture?  Is Stevie searching for ways to express his burgeoning manhood?  Maybe changing his name would be a symbolic step to show he is on the journey to manhood. 
 
What are some other rights of passage or symbolic changes that might be appealing to a young man in this culture?  I don't think it would be wise to send him into the woods alone for 3 days like traditional people might... Hunting partially fills that role where I come from.  Do other people have thoughts on that?

semajrak@...

>>>>>What are some other rights of passage or symbolic changes that might
be appealing to a young man in this culture?  I don't think it would be wise to send him into the woods alone for 3 days like traditional people might... Hunting partially fills that role where I come from.  Do other people have thoughts on that?<<<<<

I'm not there yet, so I don't have personal experience to share, but I think this seems like a wonderful program for unschooling teens if it can be afforded.

And, I do know a few teens, and families of teens, who have loved this experience too.


Karen.

Marina Moses

It is funny that this is the second time I have been questioned about his name.  Stevie has always insisted on using that as his name. He uses it on social media and introduces himself that way. Maybe because he is a musician and many musicians have been named Stevie.  I don't know.  He could use Steven or Steve if he wanted. My dad never minded being called Tommy. I guess for some it is an issue. 

I don't expect him to have the responsibility of making me comfortable. I am trying to balance the ideas of  safety with autonomy in my own head. I am getting closer to that goal with the ideas I get here and research I do on my own.

On May 23, 2014 11:35 AM, "'CASS KOTRBA' caskot@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:
 



It's not Stevie's responsibility to live his life in a way that is comfortable for you. 
 
One last thought - my husband's name is Rich but his mother still stubbornly insists on calling him Richie.  It drives him nuts.  He is his own man, not her little boy.  I don't know how your son feels about his name but if he's becoming a man it might be a good time to think about it.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Stuck again

 

I agree with the comments here in general.  They truly encourage me. Letting go was easier for me when my kids were younger. Not being controlling over skateboarding and snowboarding is easy for me.  Letting Stevie wear superhero costumes everywhere he went for 3 years-easy. A 10 inch multicolored mohawk and ear piercing at age 8- no problem. But when they are little safety is our job too. I kept him out of the street when there were cars. I didn't let him play with a plugged in toaster. I wouldn't let him throw rocks at people. Drugs feels like a safety issue to me. 14 seems young. I have conversations with him about safety and choices.  We have a close relationship and yet it feels like neglect if I know he is out with kids who drive and get high. I am not particularly anti recreational drugs. I haven't used drugs (besides my coffee) or alcohol for years but have friends and family who range from no use to what I consider responsible use to what I consider abusive use and we have lost people to excessive use and overdose. Stevie understands all of this and assures me that he is "safe." When we have different views on safety it is hard to see what to do. My mother smoked pot with me in our own house when I was 13.  My friends thought she was cool. If their parents had known I don't think they would have agreed. If Child Protective Services would have known I think they would have taken me away (like when I was 4!). I don't want to say that I agree with his choices if he chooses things I think are unsafe but I don't want him to stop "telling on himself," which he does often because he isn't afraid of repercussions. I keep praying for the right words and I find myself using less and less words. I am listening more.



Love and Prayers,
Marina

Sandra Dodd

-=-my husband's name is Rich but his mother still stubbornly insists on calling him Richie.  It drives him nuts.  He is his own man, not her little boy. -=-

Interesting side topic!

I have a daughter named Holly.
She has half-heartedly tried to switch to "Doozy."  I tried using it, but couldn't very well.  I could call her that when talking to her friends, but not to her face.

She is my daughter and will be forever.  Holly IS her name, and has been her name since she was born.  

If she wants to be called something else, she can ask, but she can't force it.  She introduces herself to some as "Doozy," and some as "Holly."  I'm going to wait until it settles out.

Perhaps Rich's mother isn't being stubborn.  Perhaps she knows he is his own man.  Perhaps he is not aware that he can't opt out of being her little boy.

Sandra


Gwen Montoya

I legally changed my name about 15 years ago (and I've been going by this name for about 20 years now). My mom and family still call me by my "old" name. It doesn't bother me. And anyone who knows me through my mom also calls me by my old name. Still doesn't bother me.

I'm actually terrible at remembering people's names & faces- so depending on the name someone uses to talk to me...it gives me an idea of where I know them from!

Gwen


On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 11:05 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:


-=-my husband's name is Rich but his mother still stubbornly insists on calling him Richie.  It drives him nuts.  He is his own man, not her little boy. -=-

Interesting side topic!

I have a daughter named Holly.
She has half-heartedly tried to switch to "Doozy."  I tried using it, but couldn't very well.  I could call her that when talking to her friends, but not to her face.

She is my daughter and will be forever.  Holly IS her name, and has been her name since she was born.  

If she wants to be called something else, she can ask, but she can't force it.  She introduces herself to some as "Doozy," and some as "Holly."  I'm going to wait until it settles out.

Perhaps Rich's mother isn't being stubborn.  Perhaps she knows he is his own man.  Perhaps he is not aware that he can't opt out of being her little boy.

Sandra





Pam Sorooshian


On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 11:05 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

Perhaps Rich's mother isn't being stubborn.  Perhaps she knows he is his own man.  Perhaps he is not aware that he can't opt out of being her little boy.

I call my daughter Rosie and so do most close family members. Her friends and colleagues call her Rose. If she asked me to call her Rose, I would try to remember to do that, but it would hurt my feelings. Using the nickname is a form of endearment and a teensy moment of special closeness. I'd feel relegated to being just like everybody else to her if she asked me not to call her Rosie. 

-pam

Mette G.

>>>my husband's name is Rich but his mother still stubbornly insists on calling him Richie.  It drives him nuts.  He is his own man, not her little boy<<<<


I only think it's stubborn, if he has specifically asked to be called otherwise. And even so, one can choose to let it be. But being driven nuts by it is a real feeling, so there's work to do - either find peace with it or....well, find peace with it. It is true that we can't force people to do as we wish.

I changed my name at my ripe age of 38. Long wanted to do it, but never dared before. My mother was understandably hurt by this. She will continue to call me by my old name. I also told her she was welcome to do so, because I *do* understand why someone could feel hurt. I still think it's stubborn, because she is the kind of person who will specifically buy you things she thinks you should use, but knows you don't care for. Anyway, for my father, same thing, he calls me by my old name - but I don't think that's because he's stubborn. I think that's because he's a dear old man, who gave his child a name *he* liked and I can most definitely accept him using it, because I'll always be his daugther who had that name. My mother spent her entire life trying to control me, still does and I can't begin to count the number of groundings or other punishments she used trying to do so. My father otoh only ever yelled at me once. I still remember, I was about 8 or so. He never tried to control me or impose his views. He was there to listen and he was my friend. 

Just sharing this story, because I think it's a good illustration of how our relationship with our children is infact key, and we would do very well to remember this, always.

Luna


On Friday, May 23, 2014 10:33 PM, "BRIAN POLIKOWSKY polykowholsteins@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 

My ex husband was Joseph and everyone called him Joe. His family called him Joey. It as endearing. It was from his childhood as he was the youngest of 5.
He will always be Joey to them.


Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Friday, May 23, 2014 3:30 PM, "BRIAN POLIKOWSKY polykowholsteins@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
Very interesting indeed!

My son is Marvin Daniel . Marvin for his grandfather that already passed. So when my husband and I named him we wanted to call him MD.
So we called ( still call ) him MD. Some time when he was a toddler I started calling him Mommy's Bazunquinha ( a Brazilian made up name) and that went to Bazooka and then dad started calling him Buzz for short.

When he was 5 he wanted to be called Mario and then he wanted to be Naruto ( and even had Naruto's hair color and cut. )
We introduced him as Naruto to the Cub Scouts and that is how they called him for years until he wanted to be called Marvin.

He was Marvin for a while. The last couple years he wants Daniel. Somewhere in between he was Len Kagamine and also had Len's hair color and length.

Gosh my husband and I try really hard! We still call him Buzz more than anything!  and MD!
But we do try to call him Daniel or introduce him as Daniel which is indeed his name!

 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 
On Friday, May 23, 2014 1:54 PM, "'CASS KOTRBA' caskot@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 

-=- Using the nickname is a form of endearment and a teensy moment of special closeness. -=-
 
Yes, now that I think about it, it has more to do with their relationship than anything else.  She is a highly dysfunctional, ugly (on the inside) person.  When we see old friends of his from high school they call him Richie & it doesn't bother him.  It sounds & feels very different when they say it.  The old friends are being affectionate.  With his mother it is something else entirely.  She is a whole other can of worms!






plaidpanties666@...

>>Using the nickname is a form of endearment and a teensy moment of special closeness.<<

I had a nickname as a little kid that my maternal grandmother called me for years after... until I had a child of my own, now that I think about it. Then later, when her dementia got strong, she called me my nickname again. I never really minded all that much, even though it was a very silly, little-girl-who-can't-pronounce Meredith yet nickname. It was embarrassing, but not a big deal.  I have an aunt and an uncle on that side, though, who use my old nickname meanly, as a way to "put me in my place". It's not sweet, and there was never any closeness between us to begin with. So context matters. 

My stepson, Ray changed his name. Not legally, but he never really liked his name and went through several different name attempts over the years - until he was 8 or so, and picked Rayan. That one stuck. 

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

Having corresponded with its author, I decided to delete one post from this "names" topic for being much too harsh and negative. 
I'm sorry if someone tries to respond to it and finds it gone.

Alex P. had responded twice, so here is the restoration of Alex's notes without quoting the too-negative parts.   *PLEASE* don't write things you wouldn't want friends or relatives ever to see, ever.

From Alex Polikowsky:
___________
Very interesting indeed!

My son is Marvin Daniel . Marvin for his grandfather that already passed. So when my husband and I named him we wanted to call him MD. 
So we called ( still call ) him MD. Some time when he was a toddler I started calling him Mommy's Bazunquinha ( a Brazilian made up name) and that went to Bazooka and then dad started calling him Buzz for short.

When he was 5 he wanted to be called Mario and then he wanted to be Naruto ( and even had Naruto's hair color and cut. )
We introduced him as Naruto to the Cub Scouts and that is how they called him for years until he wanted to be called Marvin.

He was Marvin for a while. The last couple years he wants Daniel. Somewhere in between he was Len Kagamine and also had Len's hair color and length. 

Gosh my husband and I try really hard! We still call him Buzz more than anything!  and MD!
But we do try to call him Daniel or introduce him as Daniel which is indeed his name!

Alex Polikowsky
_________
and in another post:
____________

My ex husband was Joseph and everyone called him Joe. His family called him Joey. It as endearing. It was from his childhood as he was the youngest of 5. 
He will always be Joey to them.

Alex Polikowsky

plaidpanties666@...

>>What are some other rights of passage or symbolic changes that might be appealing to a young man in this culture?<<

 Ray did a bunch of hitchhiking as a sort of rite of passage, and that's culturally appropriate for someone who grew up on a commune, meeting young adults who were travelling from place to place. Going camping with friends for the first time was another - just young friends, no family, no older adults to take care of things. Going to festivals was another. Getting his own car and driving it cross country. Getting a job from someone who didn't know his parents - through friends, but it was half way across the country. 

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

-=- I am trying to balance the ideas of  safety with autonomy in my own head. I am getting closer to that goal with the ideas I get here and research I do on my own.-=-

I hope you're not finding research that says limiting and shaming keeps people safe.  If it did, kids from the early 20th century should've been the safest kids in the history fo the world, but they weren't.  They ran away in droves, went to wars to get away from home, went to prisons by thousands, died riding freight trains illegally whether their moms thought it was a good idea or not.

In the absence of financial and social disasters and upheavals, we still look for dangers because people seem to need to have fears and enemies to function.  It's good to at least see which you can affect and which you can't.

I don't think a person can just casually become a Formula 1 racer, can he? Wouldn't there be some buildup to it gradually?

Years ago Marty (our middle child) thought he would like to be a policeman when he grew up.  He thought that when he was 12, 13, 14.  I helped him get into a junior police academy.  I treated it the same way I would have if he had wanted any other thing.  My husband objected, to me—not to Marty.  He thought I should be discouraging it beause it's so dangerous.  But I didn't.  And by the time he was 15, he had lost interest.  But he did look at it pretty closely, and we had a friend tried out for the police academy and failed the physical tests (lots of running and climbing involved).  Marty probably would have passed them, but still he was on to other ideas and interests, and so now it is clealy because he changed his mind, not because his parents said no.

Sandra

Marina Moses

=- I am trying to balance the ideas of  safety with autonomy in my own head. I am getting closer to that goal with the ideas I get here and research I do on my own.-=-


"I hope you're not finding research that says limiting and shaming keeps people safe. " 

Nope, that wasn't what I meant. I think I am just trying to be okay with my choice to not limit or shame. I am looking for the right words (fewer but more effective) to share with him. I know I can't keep him in a bubble and I don't try to but I want to be able to sleep too! The research is more for me than for him. I think he's okay but I have had a hard time moving away from my instincts to keep him from harm even though I know that I am who I am because of all of my past experiences.  


K Pennell

I've not had kids do this, but have heard good things about it. It's a little cheaper than the unschooladventures if money is a factor.

Not Back to School Camp


From: "semajrak@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 12:34 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Stuck again



>>>>>What are some other rights of passage or symbolic changes that might
be appealing to a young man in this culture?  I don't think it would be wise to send him into the woods alone for 3 days like traditional people might... Hunting partially fills that role where I come from.  Do other people have thoughts on that?<<<<<

I'm not there yet, so I don't have personal experience to share, but I think this seems like a wonderful program for unschooling teens if it can be afforded.

http://www.unschooladventures.com/

And, I do know a few teens, and families of teens, who have loved this experience too.

http://nbtsc.org/

Karen.