"My mom doesn't care what I wear"
<mmarr@...>
After a discussion with my 17yo daughter last night, my feelings are a little stung. I'm wondering if the parents of other older unschooled teens have had similar experiences and how it's worked out over time.
It sounds like my daughter has been comparing notes with her friends (some homeschooled, some public schooled) and everyone else's moms have strict rules about what they can and cannot wear and ongoing battles trying to push those limits. The hems of shorts must be lower than the fingertips and Mom will check sort of stuff.
I can count on one hand (more like half of one hand) the times I've put my foot down about an outfit. NOT because I let my daughter wear anything she wants, but because she almost never gives me reason to object to anything. Alex has this really polished Audrey Hepburn kind of poise, is almost always tastefully dolled up unless there's a reason not to be (she loves her hair and makeup and shoes - in that way, we're polar opposites) and has good judgement about what it's appropriate to wear to which places.
If we leave out the annual bikini negotiations, which are minor (why do the cutest prints have to be on the skimpiest suits that look most likely to disintegrate?) I think the last time I objected to a purchase was three years ago. And I didn't say no (although I was thinking it loudly), I asked her if that particular jumper was going to be okay if she suddenly reached up with both arms. She'd put it back on the rack before we left the store. And I wouldn't buy the $40 t-shirt that was on super cheap fabric.
I did forbid "boys are dumb" type T-shirts long ago, because she has three younger brothers and I think they're mean and obnoxious. And I've suggested putting an extra stitch in the necklines of some dresses and tops to bring them up just a bit, or layering something underneath. (We're talking an inch or two one ones that were really cute but seemed a bit gapey) But I think that was so long ago that she just does it automatically now and has forgotten that we ever discussed it.
And she made the low-cut jeans decision for herself many years ago after we spent an hour walking through a factory tour behind an adult woman who was having a spectacular wardrobe malfunction and spent the entire time hiking up her jeans. I might have quietly drawn my daughter's attention to that, because it was at the point where it was hard to find reasonably cut jeans even for pre-teens at that point and I wanted her to see why I was so picky about waistlines.
I can't remember what age it was (10 or 11 maybe) when her friend's mother saw my daughter wearing eye-shadow and jumped on me. Alex had been out with me all day, had spent time with her grandmother and great-grandmother and none of us had even noticed it. It was subtle and not at all objectionable and I'd never set a "you must be this high to wear eye shadow outside of the house" rule. It had never occurred to me until I got jumped on by the other mother. Honestly, I was busy enough making sure that all of the boys had shoes on without scrutinizing my daughter's face to see what she might have on it. But her friend was always trying to get away with something and in that house it was more about whether she had something on her face than whether anyone would have seen it or not. We were headed out to play at the park -- I wouldn't have objected to lipstick or face paint with animal stripes.
That former-best-friend's mother was obsessive to the point of ridiculous about clothing choices. Some was a religious restriction (which she ignored herself whenever it suited her) and I think a lot of was because the mother had her first child at 15 and saw both our girls as a time bomb to be defused. Her daughter knew that there were limits to be pushed and made it her mission to push as much as possible.
So it's not news to my daughter that other girls have family dress-codes....but this week it's been translated to "You don't care what I wear." But it's not like there was anything to stop her from doing (except maybe that one jumper that she talked herself out of)
Have other older unschoolers had this "Hey I didn't have rules!" reaction -- and do they get over it?
Michelle
Nicole Urban
It sounds like you caring about *her* rather than *what she wears* is what is behind this. I would share that I express caring for her through respecting her ability to make good responsible choices that satisfy her rather than through trying to control her decisions so they meet my own desires. And then I might follow up by asking if she perhaps isn't feeling cared for or is feeling distant from me and if she has any ideas for ways to bond more.
<plaidpanties666@...>
Do you care what she wears? How much interest do you take in her clothes? Do you shop with her? Help her decide on outfits for a particular occasion? do her hair and makeup for her? Talk about fashion? Talk about your own clothes?
If you're "staying out of her way" she could be comparing this to all the attention her friends get over clothes and wondering why she can't get the same attention... and the only example she has in comparison is other parents saying no. She might want more attention from you generally, or she might really like clothes and wonders why you never say anything.
Maybe offer to have a spa day with her - something at home for her and/or some friends, or a "girls day out" somewhere. Depending on what y'all find wonderful, you might do something like henna or other kinds of body art, or a hair-and-makeup party. Or have a cosplay party and dress up like your favorite pop artists rather than comic book characters (or dress up like comic book characters!). Look for some fun way to connect over the subject of clothes and fashion so she can feel like "my mom is so cool" instead of "my mom doesn't care what I wear".
If you're "staying out of her way" she could be comparing this to all the attention her friends get over clothes and wondering why she can't get the same attention... and the only example she has in comparison is other parents saying no. She might want more attention from you generally, or she might really like clothes and wonders why you never say anything.
Maybe offer to have a spa day with her - something at home for her and/or some friends, or a "girls day out" somewhere. Depending on what y'all find wonderful, you might do something like henna or other kinds of body art, or a hair-and-makeup party. Or have a cosplay party and dress up like your favorite pop artists rather than comic book characters (or dress up like comic book characters!). Look for some fun way to connect over the subject of clothes and fashion so she can feel like "my mom is so cool" instead of "my mom doesn't care what I wear".
Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-Have other older unschoolers had this "Hey I didn't have rules!" reaction -- and do they get over it? -=-
Probably most have had. "Getting over it" involves not being taken down by it, I think. Don't see it as a breakdown, or as a reversal, just as a conversation.
Holly asked why she didn't have a bedtime, because all her friends had a a bedtime. She was ten or eleven years old, I think. I asked her if she wanted one and she said yes. I asked her what time she thought it should be. She said something—8, or 9:00. So at that time that night, I said "It's bedtime." She was busy doing something, though, and said she wanted to keep doing it, and I said "That's okay."
I didn't (as I recall) make a deal about it. I didn't explain "that's why and that's how it's been" or "But you said you wanted a bedtime." I figured she would think those things herself, and I'm sure she did.
I went to look in my Holly Diary (a word file; I kept one on each of my kids, and with every computer change I make sure those files survive—I have them in their earlier forms on earlier backup media :-) to see if I had written it then. If I did, it was in an unschoooling discussion, and I could be remembering it wrong.
I did find this, though, when I searched for "bedtime." "Bedtime" in this report didn't mean a time by the clock, but when she said she wanted to go to bed. She was born in November 1991, so so she was 11:
April 14, 2003
Earlier this evening Holly asked me to tell her the story of Hamlet. I
didn't ask why. Maybe it's because on the Simpsons they did Hamlet
(swordfight scene) the other night. I asked if she wanted it right then or
at bedtime. Bedtime.
So instead of the fairytales we've been doing, I turned off the light and lay
down and told her Hamlet, about 20 minutes worth. At one point when I said
Polonius didn't want Ophelia seeing Hamlet anymore, but she loved Hamlet and
didn't know why sometimes he was being nice, and sometimes mean, Holly said
"This is like West Side Story, and like Romeo and Juliet." Right near the
end she was falling asleep. She woke up when I was getting off the bed,
though, and I told her now I would tell her the way Wendy told Peter Pan:
The king dies, the queen dies, Ophelia dies, Laertes dies, and Hamlet dies.
And they all lived happily ever after.
---------------------------
Sandra
Probably most have had. "Getting over it" involves not being taken down by it, I think. Don't see it as a breakdown, or as a reversal, just as a conversation.
Holly asked why she didn't have a bedtime, because all her friends had a a bedtime. She was ten or eleven years old, I think. I asked her if she wanted one and she said yes. I asked her what time she thought it should be. She said something—8, or 9:00. So at that time that night, I said "It's bedtime." She was busy doing something, though, and said she wanted to keep doing it, and I said "That's okay."
I didn't (as I recall) make a deal about it. I didn't explain "that's why and that's how it's been" or "But you said you wanted a bedtime." I figured she would think those things herself, and I'm sure she did.
I went to look in my Holly Diary (a word file; I kept one on each of my kids, and with every computer change I make sure those files survive—I have them in their earlier forms on earlier backup media :-) to see if I had written it then. If I did, it was in an unschoooling discussion, and I could be remembering it wrong.
I did find this, though, when I searched for "bedtime." "Bedtime" in this report didn't mean a time by the clock, but when she said she wanted to go to bed. She was born in November 1991, so so she was 11:
April 14, 2003
Earlier this evening Holly asked me to tell her the story of Hamlet. I
didn't ask why. Maybe it's because on the Simpsons they did Hamlet
(swordfight scene) the other night. I asked if she wanted it right then or
at bedtime. Bedtime.
So instead of the fairytales we've been doing, I turned off the light and lay
down and told her Hamlet, about 20 minutes worth. At one point when I said
Polonius didn't want Ophelia seeing Hamlet anymore, but she loved Hamlet and
didn't know why sometimes he was being nice, and sometimes mean, Holly said
"This is like West Side Story, and like Romeo and Juliet." Right near the
end she was falling asleep. She woke up when I was getting off the bed,
though, and I told her now I would tell her the way Wendy told Peter Pan:
The king dies, the queen dies, Ophelia dies, Laertes dies, and Hamlet dies.
And they all lived happily ever after.
---------------------------
Sandra