kirkpatrick clare

My 10 year old has spent a few months whenever we've been at home nearly constantly either playing or watching videos on youtube about minecraft. I have felt very relaxed and positive about this. I've engaged with her, helped her when she wanted to make her own videos...everything I think a good unschooling parent should do. And I've done it with genuine joy. And now she's bored of the computer :D

Anyway, my question isn't about her, it's about her younger sister, who is 9 and has now been watching youtube videos for months and months and doing little else. She watches minecraft videos and karaoke versions of Let it Go from Frozen. I am aware enough to see that this is not all she does - she also does archery once a week, sleeps, has stories read to her, watches the odd film or tv programme, rehearses her version of Let it Go over and over and, when I can arrange it, plays with a friend or two. But the vast majority of her time is spent watching youtube and anything else has to be really very sparkly for her to choose it over youtube. 

One of the issues is that, because it's been going on so much longer than it did for the 10 year old, and because it's so unvarying (ie. she doesn't play MC much at all, she isn't inspired to make her own videos or anything from what she's doing), every now and then I get a niggling voice saying 'is this really OK, her sitting hunched in her chair for hour after hour watching Youtube?'. I'm kind of certain it is, as she is a happy, kind, generous child most of the time. She's reading a lot and writing and working out sums (ie. how much longer until this episode of Stampy finishes) but I'm not quite managing to really trust that this really is OK and to not think that I'm missing something here. I sit with her sometimes, and she chats to me about what she's seen and explains what's going on. It's not that she's disengaged from the family. Should I really just let go and trust? (which I'm fine with - I just knew you lot would think up something if there *was* something I was missing and not paying attention to).

I don't try to tempt her away from it at all because I know how counter-productive that would be - she clearly hasn't had her fill of it yet. But my other problem is this (which, based on her history, I don't think is related to the Youtube-watching): tthe times when I have done my best to make it so she can watch it as much as she wants but I really need her to come with us for some reason - to take one of her sisters somewhere, for instance. She has always been one who, if she doesn't want to do something, will not budge. She won't try to see a positive side, she won't try to see that sometimes it's important to do something for someone else, she won't see that she expects her sisters to drop what they're doing if we need to take her somewhere. This has caused huge rows in the past, before we were unschooling. But now I really do go out of my way to make sure I don't have to ask her to come away from Youtube - my mum will come and watch her if she can, or I get a friend to pick up one of my children. So I find it hard to not feel angry on the odd occasion when I'm just not able to see a solution that suits all of us and I really need her to co-operate with us. (I have four children - just so you can see why the logistics are tricky sometimes). Again, apart from continuing to give her plenty of warning when I need her to come with us, and explaining about give and take etc. and reminding her of the times her sisters help her out, is there anything else I'm missing? I try to avoid 'have tos', so it's more the frustrating feeling of her sometimes holding the rest of us hostage (if we were to 'give in' to her insistence in not budging) or that (on the days DH is around) one of us always has to miss out on the fun thing the rest of the family want to do so that one of us can stay at home with her while she watches Youtube. And that frustration is, in retrospect, always compounded if we do make her come out with us and she ends up having a lovely time, once she's got over her anger.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions and different ways of looking at these situations.

Clare




Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 1, 2014, at 9:33 AM, kirkpatrick clare <clare.kirkpatrick@...> wrote:

Well you SAY "I have felt very relaxed and positive about this. ... And I've done it with genuine joy. " BUT then you follow "And now she's bored of the computer" with a big ":D"

Fill that first part in with anything other parents would be envious that your daughter's doing. Playing violin. Mastering chess. Doing calculus. If she grew bored of it, would you announce it? Would you follow your announcement with a big-grin smiley?

> because it's been going on so much longer than it did for the 10 year old, and because it's so unvarying


Don't compare. Really.

Your younger daughter learns differently. She has different interests. Some people delve deeply. Some skim the surface. Some like repetition. Some like variety.

> I don't try to tempt her away from it at all because I know how counter-productive that would be

While it does sound like you're adding to her life, for others I want to emphasize that if a child is very focused on one thing don't try to pull them away. *Add* to their lives. Create more choices so they aren't choosing the one thing because there's nothing better. Get to know what they love and bring more and related things into their lives and other things you think they might love. Avoid (while you're deschooling) what you believe is good for them. Focus on enjoyment, engagement, fun.

Plan days out of the house. It doesn't need to be to the zoo or a BIG day. A new grocery store. A new toy store. A trip for ice cream. Look at the trip through their eyes to plan the things they would pick out.

Make what they love portable :-) so it's easier to go out.

> She won't try to see a positive side, she won't try to see that sometimes it's important to do something for someone else

She's 9. Don't expect her to have empathy for others' needs yet. If she feels she's required to give up what she wants so someone else can have what they want, that's not very good advertising for empathy!

*You* be the one to find ways to meet needs without taking from someone else. Yes, it does take creativity! Ask here for ideas. :-)

(It may feel like that's what you're doing. But what you're doing is pointing out all your daughter's faults and looking for ways to fix her. Shifting your point of view will make a big difference!)

> So I find it hard to not feel angry on the odd occasion when I'm just not able
> to see a solution that suits all of us and I really need her to co-operate with us.
> (I have four children - just so you can see why the logistics are tricky sometimes).

It helps to understand that radical unschooling isn't just some nice way to parent and help kids learn. It's based on how people work. The irritation of being asked to stop what you're doing so someone else can do what they want doesn't change just because there are 4 kids instead of 1. What's discussed here isn't rules that can be bent for special circumstances. They're principles. They're truths.

What you need are *logistics* of how to make it work in your family not a special dispensation to let some of the practices slide ;-)

> apart from continuing to give her plenty of warning


She's giving you feedback that your "plenty of warning" solution isn't something that helps her. If you kept making toast on setting 6 and it always burned, would it make sense to blame the toaster?

I have a page on lots of different transition ideas that might help:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/unschooling%20in%20action/transitions.html

> when I need her to come with us,


Need? Or you've run out of ideas? Sometimes people *do* run out of ideas! :-) But it will help you to treat her with more courtesy and understanding if you mentally shift from "need to" to "I'm sorry, I'm in a bind."

*Show* her how to treat others when you need to inconvenience them because you can't think of more options. Right now you're showing her what you do is, "At this point I don't care about your feelings. My convenience is more important than your fun."

Maybe she doesn't see the thought you're putting into arranging for her to stay home. Maybe make the options you're considering a little more transparent. Think out loud.

But she's 9. *Don't* expect her to appreciate what others are doing for her just yet. *Don't* expect her to understand. Right now she's biologically dependent on you to meet her needs so what you do for her feels like what you're supposed to do for her. Emotionally, from her point of view, you've chosen the life you have. And when you brought her into your life, you promised to tend to her needs. When you don't, it feels like you're going back on your promise.

This isn't *conscious* thought! It's her biology dictating her thoughts. She'll grow out of it as she gets older and feels more capable of meeting her own needs. You'll see changes usually as puberty approaches. But right now you can either work with how her brain works or against it. You can't change it.

> and explaining about give and take etc. and reminding her of the times her sisters help her out


Don't. Don't guilt her into going through the motions of being courteous. When she's capable of being courteous, she'll be courteous -- as long as you've been courteous to her so she can absorb how it's done! Until then, being courteous to others is your part to play on the team.

> it's more the frustrating feeling of her sometimes holding the rest of us hostage
> (if we were to 'give in' to her insistence in not budging) or that (on the days DH is around)

She has no power. She can't hold you hostage. You have the power to pick her up and put her in the car. She doesn't have the power to stop you from doing that. (And even the law would back you up!)

You can't give in to her since she has no power. You *can* choose to stop looking for solutions. But don't blame her for your choice to stop.

> one of us always has to miss out on the fun thing the rest of the family
> want to do so that one of us can stay at home with her while she watches Youtube.

You're in essence blaming her because you have more kids than you are saying you can comfortably meet the needs of.

Maybe you could give some of your kids away so you don't have so many. Or you could give her to a family who doesn't have any kids. Would those maybe be better options?

Presumably you didn't keep adding kids because you figured it would make your life more convenient. She isn't to blame because you created a family that you don't have all the answers to.

> And that frustration is, in retrospect, always compounded if we do make her
> come out with us and she ends up having a lovely time, once she's got over her anger.

So it would be better if she remained angry? That way you'd be able to accept that your solution needed worked on?

If you were all excited about an event and suddenly someone switched it with something that didn't appeal to you, would you be happy? If, as your feelings faded, you decided to make the best of it, would that be a bad thing? Would it be right for people to feel justified that changing plans at the last moment was a good way to handle things?

You aren't responsible for her feelings. But do use them as feedback on how well your solution worked. Ask her, away from the situation, what you could do differently next time. It's your problem, though. Ask her for input. Don't dump the problem on her.

Joyce

<semajrak@...>

This first paragraph seems to suggest a feeling of success:

>>>>>My 10 year old has spent a few months whenever we've been at home nearly constantly either playing or watching videos on youtube about minecraft. I have felt very relaxed and positive about this. I've engaged with her, helped her when she wanted to make her own videos...everything I think a good unschooling parent should do. And I've done it with genuine joy. And now she's bored of the computer :D<<<<<

Your daughter spent a lot of time doing what she loved.  You supported her.  And now she's "bored of the computer :D" and moved on. 

Your other daughter, however, hasn't gotten bored of the computer and moved on.  Here is how her time spent doing something she is interested in is described:

* it's been going on so much longer than it did for the 10 year old
* it's so unvarying
* she isn't inspired to make her own videos or anything from what she's doing
* I get a niggling voice saying 'is this really OK, her sitting hunched in her chair for hour after hour watching Youtube?' (hunched paints a very unflattering picture of your daughter)
* I'm not quite managing to really trust that this really is OK

I think it's important to see how you are looking at the same activity resulting in different outcomes.  One is positive and joyful.  The other is negative and dismissive.  How would it be different if the activity was different?  Say both girls loved the piano.  One girl got bored of it and moved on.  The other stayed and played with the same level of dedication and interest.  How would you compare their experiences then?  Should you, then, be comparing experiences at all?

Then you write this of her:

>>>>>She has always been one who, if she doesn't want to do something, will not budge. She won't try to see a positive side, she won't try to see that sometimes it's important to do something for someone else<<<<<

I believe that we parents sometimes seem to have the opinion that if a child is given enough time to do what they want to do, then that child *should* want to do what the parent or other siblings want to do.  But often the way the child's interest is supported is kind of like a prescription applied to an illness.  "If I do this, then this should happen" kind of thinking.  And when the illness isn't cured by the application of the prescription, there is resentment.  It's not working as planned.  That's not honestly embracing what your child loves.  I believe the child, especially the sensitive, strong willed child, feels this pressure, and perhaps even an unconscious patronizing attitude, and responds to it somewhat defensively.  

>>>>>Should I really just let go and trust?<<<<<

More then that, I think.  I believe you have some expectations that are getting in the way of truly seeing and embracing what your daughter is getting from her experiences.  Once she knows and feels that you do honestly support her, she might soften.   Once you have a better idea about what she is really getting from her experiences, you will soften too.   That softening on your part, more than anything, I believe, will help your daughter the most.  It will be a good example for her to learn from, and it will lighten and brighten her experiences.  

I don't care for the term "let go" in this context.  Don't let go.  Don't walk away.  Dive in further.  :-)   Besides reading, writing and sums, what else does she get out of watching Stampy videos?  I'm sure it's bigger than you realize or she wouldn't be counting down to the next one. 

Continue to bring many new things into your home and into all of your children's lives.  Do so in the spirit of bringing as much of the world as you can to their days with the intent on helping them discover and build on what they love and what they're good at.  

Karen.

Sandra Dodd

-=-I try to avoid 'have tos', so it's more the frustrating feeling of her sometimes holding the rest of us hostage (if we were to 'give in' to her insistence in not budging) or that (on the days DH is around) one of us always has to miss out-=-

There's a "have to" that should probably be avoided by getting her to come with you.

On a morning when the family needs to go somewhere, you might say "Don't watch YouTube right now. Do something else, so when it's time to go you'll be able to go more easily."  Or don't even say that—FIND things to do that keep her away from YouTube.  If she asks to watch it you could say "I don't want to say yes, because at [10:00 or whatever], we need to be in the car, and I don't want to argue with you about it."  Then if she wants to, it becomes an if/then—you can watch IF you turn it off when it's time to go.  Then if she doesn't keep her deal, you can say the next time, "I don't think it's a good idea because when we needed to go, you weren't ready."  

Help her see the priority in your family's life is NOT the whole family enabling her to do what she wants to all the time, but for the family to be and do what they need to do as a group, and in and around that, individuals can choose things to do.

Saying Yes a lot makes more sense when sometimes the answer is "not now, but as soon as we get back."  

The good thing about Youtube is it will still be there when you get back.
It might also be available on a phone, if you can't manage to persuade her to wait.

Sandra

<groups@...>

Just picking up on a couple of parts of this. 
Sometimes tweaks make other bigger solutions come into place spontaneously.
 "So I find it hard to not feel angry on the odd occasion when I'm just not able to see a solution that suits all of us and I really need her to co-operate with us. (I have four children - just so you can see why the logistics are tricky sometimes)."
How about focusing on extending your social network so you build in more mutual support from others?  Have other children round to play more often then you can easily ask for others to support you by having one or more of your children when it'd help you.  The more social connections the more possibilities for win-wins particularly if you have 4 children with different social and entertainment needs.
I'd also spend a little time looking into mobile internet solutions either "on the go" internet access or downloading videos onto gadgets in advance of a trip out.

"every now and then I get a niggling voice saying 'is this really OK, her sitting hunched in her chair for hour after hour watching Youtube"

Think about posture and different seating positions, maybe lying prone on the floor with a cushion under her elbows and  a laptop instead of a PC, sitting on a wobble cushion, or think about a good office chair, can you run you-tube on the TV? could she watch from the sofa? Varying the posture makes a difference.

Little changes can have a knock on effect that gives a bigger than expected result. 
Elizabeth


Sandra Dodd

-=-If you were all excited about an event and suddenly someone switched it with something that didn't appeal to you, would you be happy? If, as your feelings faded, you decided to make the best of it, would that be a bad thing? Would it be right for people to feel justified that changing plans at the last moment was a good way to handle things?-=-

If I were watching a DVD, or TV series, or reading a book, and someone (my husband, or my parents, when I was a kid) said "We're all going to..." [shop, eat out, go camping, go to a circus] and they reminded me that the DVD, TV series or book would still be there when I got back, I don't think it would be just "making the best of it" to go, knowing I could come back to what I was doing.  When I was a kid there were no DVDs (not even video tape, and TV series couldn't be watched when they weren't being broadcast.  

If what a child is doing is a game that can pause (that he's not playing with a group at that moment) , or YouTube videos that will most definitely be there, it seems that a kind and persuasive parent can jolly him into leaving and coming back.

It could be done well, or it could be done badly, but it seems wrong to make a parent feel guilty about an already-planned outing, or about an emergency need.

There ARE options, and those who have been unschooling longer will have more of them at hand.  For beginners, their choices might be more limited because they haven't practiced enough.

And (if it applies in any case any reader might be envisioning in her own family) any parent who has told a child he can do anything he wants to has made a tactical error.  It wasn't a good thing to have said, and it's not true, anyway.  

Sandra

Megan Valnes

My 5 year old son also has a fascination with Youtube videos (he likes to watch other people playing Mario Bros.) and it can be challenging to get him to leave his activities at times.  We also have 4 children and when we all need or have to go somewhere and there's no option except for little man to come along, I sometimes allow him to take the iPad or Kindle Fire for the car ride.  He knows that once we get to the event, he will have to leave the device in the car, and he's almost always perfectly fine with that.  Once he's in the car with his brother and sisters, they're having a good time and interacting, so exiting the car is not so difficult as exiting the house can be. 

Other times, we leave the device at home, and use the methods Sandra was referring to: letting him know he can watch his videos when we get back home, giving him a head's up as to when we will be leaving and letting him know he will not be able to take the advice, and sometimes a lollipop or gummy snacks help to get him in the car.  I like and plan to use the idea that if we do have to leave somewhere quickly, we forgo the Youtube altogether to avoid a messy leave.

Last night he really surprised me because he was watching his videos and I wanted him to shower with me.  He really resisted saying that he wanted to take a bath instead. I told him I was not giving baths that night (I was so tired and even the shower sounded like a lot of work).  I thought he just wanted to watch Youtube videos and the bath thing was an excuse to have more time.  He was so insistent about not taking a shower and since it really didn't matter whether he did or not, I let him off the shower hook.

Well, lo and behold, I came out of the shower and asked everyone where Zack was.  He was not to be found.  Suddenly, I got very scared that he was drowning in the bath alone.  Well, he wasn't.  But he was very joyfully giving himself a bubble bath in his bathroom!  Although I find this a bit dangerous, I am still astounded that he was able to do that!  Fill the tub, put in the bubbles, and when I walked in he was actually washing himself with the loofah!  I guess he really did want a bath :)






Warmly,
Megan






On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 3:12 PM, <groups@...> wrote:
 

Just picking up on a couple of parts of this. 

Sometimes tweaks make other bigger solutions come into place spontaneously.
 "So I find it hard to not feel angry on the odd occasion when I'm just not able to see a solution that suits all of us and I really need her to co-operate with us. (I have four children - just so you can see why the logistics are tricky sometimes)."
How about focusing on extending your social network so you build in more mutual support from others?  Have other children round to play more often then you can easily ask for others to support you by having one or more of your children when it'd help you.  The more social connections the more possibilities for win-wins particularly if you have 4 children with different social and entertainment needs.
I'd also spend a little time looking into mobile internet solutions either "on the go" internet access or downloading videos onto gadgets in advance of a trip out.

"every now and then I get a niggling voice saying 'is this really OK, her sitting hunched in her chair for hour after hour watching Youtube"

Think about posture and different seating positions, maybe lying prone on the floor with a cushion under her elbows and  a laptop instead of a PC, sitting on a wobble cushion, or think about a good office chair, can you run you-tube on the TV? could she watch from the sofa? Varying the posture makes a difference.

Little changes can have a knock on effect that gives a bigger than expected result. 
Elizabeth



K Pennell

If you have a tablet or smart phone and internet where you're going, she could keep watching. Otherwise (if you don't have that and it's not an option right now, financially) you could get a Frozen CD to play in the car (or bring along an iPod or MP3). She could listen in the car, sing along if she wants. That might make it more palatable.



From: kirkpatrick clare <clare.kirkpatrick@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 9:33 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Picking apart a couple of 'issues'



My 10 year old has spent a few months whenever we've been at home nearly constantly either playing or watching videos on youtube about minecraft. I have felt very relaxed and positive about this. I've engaged with her, helped her when she wanted to make her own videos...everything I think a good unschooling parent should do. And I've done it with genuine joy. And now she's bored of the computer :D

Anyway, my question isn't about her, it's about her younger sister, who is 9 and has now been watching youtube videos for months and months and doing little else. She watches minecraft videos and karaoke versions of Let it Go from Frozen. I am aware enough to see that this is not all she does - she also does archery once a week, sleeps, has stories read to her, watches the odd film or tv programme, rehearses her version of Let it Go over and over and, when I can arrange it, plays with a friend or two. But the vast majority of her time is spent watching youtube and anything else has to be really very sparkly for her to choose it over youtube. 

One of the issues is that, because it's been going on so much longer than it did for the 10 year old, and because it's so unvarying (ie. she doesn't play MC much at all, she isn't inspired to make her own videos or anything from what she's doing), every now and then I get a niggling voice saying 'is this really OK, her sitting hunched in her chair for hour after hour watching Youtube?'. I'm kind of certain it is, as she is a happy, kind, generous child most of the time. She's reading a lot and writing and working out sums (ie. how much longer until this episode of Stampy finishes) but I'm not quite managing to really trust that this really is OK and to not think that I'm missing something here. I sit with her sometimes, and she chats to me about what she's seen and explains what's going on. It's not that she's disengaged from the family. Should I really just let go and trust? (which I'm fine with - I just knew you lot would think up something if there *was* something I was missing and not paying attention to).

I don't try to tempt her away from it at all because I know how counter-productive that would be - she clearly hasn't had her fill of it yet. But my other problem is this (which, based on her history, I don't think is related to the Youtube-watching): tthe times when I have done my best to make it so she can watch it as much as she wants but I really need her to come with us for some reason - to take one of her sisters somewhere, for instance. She has always been one who, if she doesn't want to do something, will not budge. She won't try to see a positive side, she won't try to see that sometimes it's important to do something for someone else, she won't see that she expects her sisters to drop what they're doing if we need to take her somewhere. This has caused huge rows in the past, before we were unschooling. But now I really do go out of my way to make sure I don't have to ask her to come away from Youtube - my mum will come and watch her if she can, or I get a friend to pick up one of my children. So I find it hard to not feel angry on the odd occasion when I'm just not able to see a solution that suits all of us and I really need her to co-operate with us. (I have four children - just so you can see why the logistics are tricky sometimes). Again, apart from continuing to give her plenty of warning when I need her to come with us, and explaining about give and take etc. and reminding her of the times her sisters help her out, is there anything else I'm missing? I try to avoid 'have tos', so it's more the frustrating feeling of her sometimes holding the rest of us hostage (if we were to 'give in' to her insistence in not budging) or that (on the days DH is around) one of us always has to miss out on the fun thing the rest of the family want to do so that one of us can stay at home with her while she watches Youtube. And that frustration is, in retrospect, always compounded if we do make her come out with us and she ends up having a lovely time, once she's got over her anger.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions and different ways of looking at these situations.

Clare








<groups@...>

"every now and then I get a niggling voice saying 'is this really OK, her sitting hunched in her chair for hour after hour watching Youtube"

Another thought about different sitting places and different seating positions is that it will naturally provide other perspectives and other inspiration just by being in different places.  There will be different kinds of engagement with others in the house depending on whether the child is in their room, in the sitting room on the sofa or on the floor.

A thought about the child who has grown bored of the computer, This change will naturally inspire her to find other things to do and you to support her in that. Help her find better things to do on the computer too though.  When DS has grown "bored" that has prompted us to find lots to do, we have become better at noticing the need for inspiration before he grows bored.  Having more inspiration ready to go helps.  So when he grew bored of minecraft he explored Terraria and Starbound, we bought a Humble Bundle so he had a bunch of games to explore. We also support our two in developing minecraft servers with friends. This doesn't  pull them away from everything else and "stick them to the screens" by any means it gives them more choices.  They are also motivated to go to play parks and HE groups with friends and have people round to go exploring the woods etc. We also put time into planning the family calendar, wondering about new days out, holidays, social opportunities. Even when they are satisfied with what they have as things can always be better and more choices are good.
There have been times in the winter particularly when they can be intensely into gaming online for days or even weeks, these are precious magical times when there is a real buzz in the house.
Elizabeth



<saskiatm@...>

-- On a morning when the family needs to go somewhere, you might say "Don't watch YouTube right now. Do something else, so when it's time to go you'll be able to go more easily."  Or don't even say that—FIND things to do that keep her away from YouTube.  If she asks to watch it you could say "I don't want to say yes, because at [10:00 or whatever], we need to be in the car, and I don't want to argue with you about it."  Then if she wants to, it becomes an if/then—you can watch IF you turn it off when it's time to go.  Then if she doesn't keep her deal, you can say the next time, "I don't think it's a good idea because when we needed to go, you weren't ready."  --
Sandra Dodd

I am interested in this response. It doesn't sit entirely comfortably with me. Isn't this behaviourism? If the child isn't allowed to watch YouTube because last time she didn't behave in required manner, then won't she just start behaving the way you want so that she can watch YouTube?

Joyce Fetteroll


On Apr 6, 2014, at 6:40 AM, <saskiatm@...> <saskiatm@...> wrote:

If the child isn't allowed to watch YouTube because last time she didn't
behave in required manner, then won't she just start behaving the way
you want so that she can watch YouTube?

You're not giving the child much credit in seeing there are cause and effect connections between the two.

It's not "You can't watch YouTube because you didn't finish your dinner." Those are only connected by an arbitrary rule.

But getting out of the house does depend on people being in the car when it's time to go. It's about helping kids make thoughtful decisions, that take more into account than their immediate impulse.

It *is* hard for young kids to figure out how to meet their needs without stepping on someone else's toes. Moms have a better ability to see the big picture and find ways to make both things happen, which sometimes means one needs to be put off until later.

When a parent first starts helping a child meet their needs -- but later -- the child will likely interpret "Later," as "No, you can't. Our needs are more important." It *will* take time for the child to grow confidence that their needs *are* important and mom is taking them into consideration even if it can't be right this moment. That time will pass faster if Mom *does* keep her word and makes "later" a priority. In other words she doesn't just let later slide hoping the child will forget or assuming the child doesn't care anymore.

Joyce

Pam Sorooshian

Behaviorism is giving rewards and punishments in order to shape behavior. Give the child a chocolate every time she gets off youtube when asked so that she is trained to get off quickly in order to get the chocolate. That's behaviorism. It is something you do to someone. 

What was described was a realistic assessment of the situation based on real experience.  If there is a repeated problem, figure out some ways that the problem could be avoided...one way is to keep the child busy with other things to do if you know you're going to be leaving soon. Another way is to bring the issue to her attention and work together to resolve it - remind her how hard it is when it is time to leave and she's on youtube and ask her to find something else to do instead. Or remind her of it and suggest she give it a try this time and see if she can do it without it becoming a problem. This is partnership - working together to create a better situation. And, indeed, if the child does decide to behave more cooperatively because she wants to watch youtube before departure time, then it is because she's realizing that her behavior is causing problems so she's deciding to change it based on the impact it is having on others. 


-pam


On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 3:40 AM, <saskiatm@...> wrote:
I am interested in this response. It doesn't sit entirely comfortably with me. Isn't this behaviourism? If the child isn't allowed to watch YouTube because last time she didn't behave in required manner, then won't she just start behaving the way you want so that she can watch YouTube?


Lisa Celedon

<<Don't watch YouTube right now. Do something else, so when it's time to go you'll be able to go more easily." Or don't even say that—FIND things to do that keep her away from YouTube. If she asks to watch it you could say "I don't want to say yes, because at [10:00 or whatever], we need to be in the car, and I don't want to argue with you about it." >>

If the parent and the kid have a history of trust and partnership established, I think this makes sense.

I think it could be easy for a person who is still new to unschooling and figuring out how it works and doesn't, to take this suggestion and use it as a way of dismissing what their child wants, instead of working to find better, more joyful and peaceful solutions. I can see this sort of scenario creating antagonism between a parent and child who don't already have a lot of trust established on both sides. The original post suggested that may be the case.

It does make sense to talk to her about it- not in the moment where it's happening, and not as a, 'I don't want to say yes to this right now.' In a family where Yes hasn't been very well established and trustworthy, the child might not hear anything but "No blah blah I don't care blah blah this is more important than what you want blah blah."

I think it might be better if instead of coming from the angle of preventing the child from watching you tube when the family needs to go out- especially since the original poster mentioned that she has negative feelings about her daughter watching it so often, and choosing it over going out with the family- if the mom found ways to support her daughter getting out of the house *and* doing what she loves so much, which is watching you tube. The mom knows her daughter will be happy once they're out, as she said, so now help her be happy about leaving too.
Like, if the family needs to be dressed and ready by a certain time, tell her the night before, "Get dressed and (what? Brush your hair? What else does she need to do to be ready?) *before* you sit down at the computer. We are leaving the house at ___." Set her outfit for the next day and a brush on the keyboard to help her remember. Can breakfast be portable? Eaten by the computer? Tell her about it, "I'm making muffins tonight so you can eat breakfast at the computer- remember we're leaving at ___." Can she chew dental gum in the car instead of brushing her teeth? (I do that sometimes). Set an egg timer next to the computer for 5 minutes before it's time to go. When the timer goes off, that video is the last video.

Even better- invest in a portable option !!!!! Instead of 'No you can't get on the computer, we need to leave soon,' the answer can be, 'Yes, after you're dressed and ready, you can watch you tube on the _(whichever device- ours is a smart phone)_. You can bring it to the car when it's time to go."

For a child who is so interested in you tube, a portable option will help make her life more full, and help her get out more easily and joyfully. It will help her have less negative impact on her family without having to choose between something she loves to do and doing what everyone else needs her to do. You can give her options while also bringing to her attention how her behavior impacts the family.


Lisa C



Sent from my iPhone

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 7, 2014, at 12:05 PM, Lisa Celedon <lisajceledon@...> wrote:

> I think it might be better if instead of coming from the angle of preventing
> the child from watching you tube when the family needs to go out- especially
> since the original poster mentioned that she has negative feelings about her
> daughter watching it so often,


I was reacting to the negativity too in my reply. I think though that Sandra's point that YouTube can be watched later is important in not making the solution more complex than it needs to be.

The daughter *is* likely to hear "No," instead of "Later," because mom's negativity is leaking out. But if Mom continues to build trust in other ways, it's not going to delay the daughter building trust too much.

It would be different if her mother were constantly interrupting something that wasn't pausable.

If the daughter continues to be upset, I'd dig deeper. Asking her about what's going on, using Sandra's Leaning on a Truck as a model would be useful. That is don't "sit down to talk about it." Bring it up in the car or while playing, some time away from the incident.

http://sandradodd.com/truck

The more respectful a mom can be that her daughter (maybe) doesn't like to leave the house, the more she feels mom is taking that into account when she can't stay home, the more her trust will grow.

I was off when I suggested she'll grow trust when people work to allow her to stay home. From her (kid) point of view, staying home will feel as effortless for others as it is for her. Grandma, who may be inconvenienced, will just show up to watch her. She won't *feel* the decisions.


> tell her the night before, "Get dressed and (what? Brush your hair?
> What else does she need to do to be ready?) *before* you sit down at the computer.


I think rather than telling her, it's better if Mom helps her be ready. I know *I'd* much rather jump on the computer than jump in the shower! ;-) The more the mom can help her do the boring stuff -- especially if it's for something she's not thrilled about -- the smoother it will go.

Telling her to do certain things -- especially when she's already shown she isn't yet capable -- is setting her up to fail.

Before doing it, I would ask her if putting the hairbrush on the keyboard would help her remember. Otherwise it's a cowardly way for mom to tell her to brush her hair first without mom actually having to say it.

Any solution should be seen as something to try. If it doesn't work, it's not the child's fault. Not Mom's fault either! It's an opportunity to try something else.

Maybe a better way to see it is rather than Mom making a decision (We need to be in the car at 8AM) that creates problems for everyone, ask for help in making "everyone in the car by 8AM" happen. Then tackle the various issues together. (Or as much as everyone wants to participate ;-) The more everyone feels invested in problem solving rather than *being* the problem that must be solved, the more cooperative they'll be.

Joyce

<alohabun@...>

<<I was off when I suggested she'll grow trust when people work to allow her to stay home. From her (kid) point of view, staying home will feel as effortless for others as it is for her. Grandma, who may be inconvenienced, will just show up to watch her. She won't *feel* the decisions.>>

Could you explain this a bit more?  Wouldn't it be kind of the parents to figure a way for a child who doesn't want to come on a planned outing to stay home at least some of the time when they can do so?  Even if she doesn't yet appreciate or understand the effort a parent takes to make that happen?  And when they can't figure a way for her to stay home, to be empathetic and try to make it as easy as they can for her to come along?  Doesn't that build trust because the parents are trying to be considerate?  

Laurie 

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 8, 2014, at 3:40 PM, <alohabun@...> <alohabun@...> wrote:

> Wouldn't it be kind of the parents to figure a way for a child who doesn't
> want to come on a planned outing to stay home at least some of the time
> when they can do so?

Yes, of course.

It sounds like she's doing that a lot already. But she's also getting frustrated that her daughter doesn't appreciate it. She *shouldn't* expect her daughter to appreciate it. But that doesn't mean don't do it. Infants don't appreciate being fed and diapered ;-)

> And when they can't figure a way for her to stay home, to be empathetic
> and try to make it as easy as they can for her to come along?

She doesn't even need to be emphatic. Just matter of fact.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-Infants don't appreciate being fed and diapered ;-)-=-

Sometimes you can tell that they do, though.
Nursing babies can CLEARLY indicate appreciation at being nursed, when they indicate that they want to.

Sometimes a toddler KNOWS the new diaper is going to be way more comfortable than the loaded yucky heavy one.

And once the relationship between a parent and child is no longer reactionary and competitive, if they can get to the point that they are both giving (which only comes after the mom has given LOTS and lots, and freely), THEN she might begin to see indications of appreciation, which might show as relief, relaxation, patience, smiles, less whining, more cooperation, more generosity.

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll


On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:15 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

-=-Infants don't appreciate being fed and diapered ;-)-=-

Sometimes you can tell that they do, though.

I think they're happy. They're grateful. 

Appreciate means "recognize the full worth of."

They appreciate the full worth *to them*. That's clearer. If mom is expecting appreciation from her child that matches the time, the inconvenience, the effort, the money that she's putting into an effort, that's not going to happen.

I clearly remember as a child assuming that everything my parents did was because they wanted to. My mom grocery shopped and cooked and cleaned, my dad went to work and mowed the lawn, they took us on vacations all because they wanted to. I could appreciate it as much as it was worth to me. If my parents had been underwhelmed by my appreciation, if they'd told me how much time or money they'd put into something, I would have been puzzled. Why would they put more time or money into something than they wanted to when they were fully free to make their own choices?

What we do for kids needs to be freely given. A parent can't be running a tab, expecting the child to appreciate how much work gets put into what's done for them. It will build resentment.

Joyce

<alohabun@...>

<<She *shouldn't* expect her daughter to appreciate it. >>

My mom drove me to dance and back so many times a week while I was growing up.  I appreciate all she did for me so much more now than I did at the time.  

When I make an effort to help my children feel more comfortable, I don't expect that they'll appreciate what I do or understand all the logistics and considerations that I take into account.  I do it because I want to and because I care.  Also, it is how I'd like to be treated by someone who loves me.  They learn from us by how we treat them.

Imagine how a child thinks of him or herself by how we react?  If we make the effort to help and consider possibilities, they feel loved, cared for, worthy.  However, a child can feel bad or guilty if they think they should appreciate something more or if they sense their parent's resentment.  

<<But that doesn't mean don't do it.>>
Do it because you love your child.  Do it because it makes them feel better. Do it because you feel good.  Do it when you can figure out some way to do it.  And on those few times when you can't figure out some way for her to stay home, be as cheerful as you can and make it as easy for her as you can. Enjoy it when she enjoys herself too!

Laurie 

Joyce Fetteroll


On Apr 8, 2014, at 9:59 PM, <alohabun@...> <alohabun@...> wrote:

My mom drove me to dance and back so many times a week while I
was growing up.  I appreciate all she did for me so much more now
than I did at the time. 

There's a certain mindset that will look back on their own childish point of view and see selfishness and wrongness. When they see the same "wrong" thinking in their child they feel angry and embarrassed. It's a reflection on them as parents that their child could have picked up such a "wrong-headed selfish" idea.

But kids aren't wrong for seeing the world from a kid point of view any more than a baby is for crawling. 

That kid point of view *looks* like a lack of information. It looks like it can be corrected by informing them that their thinking is wrong then feeding them the right way to see the world. But a baby can't run by being told it's wrong for crawling. ;-) Kids can't developmentally see the world like adults until they're adults.

Joyce

janine davies

>>>I clearly remember as a child assuming that everything my parents did was because they wanted to. My mom grocery shopped and cooked and cleaned, my dad went to work and mowed the lawn, they took us on vacations all because they wanted to. I could appreciate it as much as it was worth to me. If my parents had been underwhelmed by my appreciation, if they'd told me how much time or money they'd put into something, I would have been puzzled. Why would they put more time or money into something than they wanted to when they were fully free to make their own choices?<<<

I clearly remember being told daily that everything she did was not because she wanted too, and that she certainly didn't enjoy it, and was clearly underwhelmed by my appreciation (although I tried but always got it wrong….) It destroyed me daily, and I clearly remember always looking at the kind mum of my friend had, who seemed to do it all because she wanted to and it brought her joy, and dreaming of her being mine.

Funny because my mum always bitched about her and how much of a doormat she thought she was - she lives by the sea now in a beautiful cottage and is surrounded by family and lots of grandchildren every weekend and all throughout the holidays. 

I yearned for this mum. I was very puzzled by mine, and ultimately damaged by it, and for a few years there before the life line of unschooling - I was becoming the mum who bitched and wasn't kind.  


To: [email protected]
From: jfetteroll@...
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 21:03:46 -0400
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Picking apart a couple of 'issues'

 


On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:15 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

-=-Infants don't appreciate being fed and diapered ;-)-=-

Sometimes you can tell that they do, though.

I think they're happy. They're grateful. 

Appreciate means "recognize the full worth of."

They appreciate the full worth *to them*. That's clearer. If mom is expecting appreciation from her child that matches the time, the inconvenience, the effort, the money that she's putting into an effort, that's not going to happen.

I clearly remember as a child assuming that everything my parents did was because they wanted to. My mom grocery shopped and cooked and cleaned, my dad went to work and mowed the lawn, they took us on vacations all because they wanted to. I could appreciate it as much as it was worth to me. If my parents had been underwhelmed by my appreciation, if they'd told me how much time or money they'd put into something, I would have been puzzled. Why would they put more time or money into something than they wanted to when they were fully free to make their own choices?

What we do for kids needs to be freely given. A parent can't be running a tab, expecting the child to appreciate how much work gets put into what's done for them. It will build resentment.

Joyce