Clare Kirkpatrick

I've done extensive reading into both over the years and also 'tried' both and this is my understanding:

Autonomous Education (AE) comes from a slightly different root than Unschooling. AE works from the strong theoretical and philosophical understanding that one cannot learn under coercion. Whereas unschooling seems to come from a more positive root of the idea that children learn best when they are happy and feeling connected. 

Unlike with unschooling, there is not prolific writing around about AE but as with unschooling there is a significant amount of misunderstanding around about it so that some families that AE will not look like what Jan Fortune-Wood described. Some think it means 'child led', some think it means 'only when it comes to academic subjects', some think it means benign neglect or 'let your kids do whatever they like with no parental support'...the same misunderstandings people have frequently about unschooling. Happily, though, there is extensive and ongoing discussion about unschooling to help people get their heads around its true meaning. ..something AE lacks.

However, there is nothing in AE writing (apart from writings by people who don't get it) to suggest any of the things you mention, Sandra. School at home is not AE. Relationships and connection definitely comes first and many AEors come to it from attachment parenting. I don't think AEors would see themselves as educating their children either...I think Sarah's comment came from the powers-that-be's idea that we need to educate our children in some way.

I think if I came to the US and stayed with a number of families who said they were unschooling, I'd find people doing things that didn't fit with your writing, Sandra. If one googles unschooling, as with AE, one will find plenty of misinformed writing about the topic that could well lead you astray and give you the wrong idea about that philosophy of family living and learning. 

Essentially, though, if you spent time with an AE family that really got it you'd find they looked really very similar to an unschooling family that really got it: parents sharing ideas with their children, trying to find ways to take them places they want to go and help them do things they want to do, not letting their children hurt others or harm others' things. You'd see love and connection and joy prioritised over coercion and fear. 

I may be wrong, but try as I might, I really cannot find any vast differences between true AE and true unschooling. Certainly AE looks to me like nothing you've described, Sandra. 

There does tend to be a lot of political action amongst AEors...I guess they are the ones who've done the most extensive learning about how children learn so feel the most strongly about protecting their right to provide whatever education they understand as being best. But being political is not a prerequisite of AE.

Clare


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Sandra Dodd

-=-However, there is nothing in AE writing (apart from writings by people who don't get it) to suggest any of the things you mention, Sandra. School at home is not AE. Relationships and connection definitely comes first and many AEors come to it from attachment parenting.-=-

Good.
I don't mind being wrong!  

I wish I hadn't been shushed so much so long, and dismissed, but there were always people reading about unschooling from the UK because the internet doesn't stop at the border.   

Sandra

Clare Kirkpatrick

"I wish I hadn't been shushed so much so long, and dismissed, "

I don't know who tried to shush and dismiss you...as far as I see it, your prolific writings and gathering of wisdom on your site has been of immense value to those of us who came to AE through reading something like Winning Parent Winning Child but who lacked the opportunity to spend time with AEors who'd known the F-Ws personally. There is always a large risk of not getting it quite right without the chance to clarify, to pick apart specific issues and fears etc. It's certainly why I 'went wrong' first time round, and being able to read your site and this list has been the reason I feel we're getting there now. But the root and motivation of what we're doing as 'unschoolers' is no different than what we were doing as 'AEors' so I tend not to give myself a label but, if asked, explain what I have found the most useful and enlightening: Winning Parent Winning Child, your writing, Joyce Fetterol, Pam Larrichia and others from this list who've contributed to this list. The unschoolers and AEors I know personally in the UK seem to say the same :) 

But people who speak loudly and truthfully will always be shushed and dismissed by some ("The truth will set you free but first it will piss you off" ;) ) - don't US home educators shush and dismiss you too at times? I'm trying to say that I don't think it's a US vs UK thing, just a thing. But I may have misunderstood what you meant?

Clare


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Sandra Dodd

-=-I'm trying to say that I don't think it's a US vs UK thing, just a thing. -=-

It's not a contest, and unschooling isn't "A US thing".  It was a defensive position involving "Autonomous Ed" (which only existed in the UK) for many years.   
In equating that with unschooling every time unschooling came up, many people were kept from exploring unschooling earlier.

And I think putting a name on a practice without it having a lot of philosophy and discussion behind it, while discouraging people from looking elsewhere was good for magazine sales, but not as good for parents and children.

I promised to bring the topic up.  Here it is.  That's all.

Sandra

<groups@...>

-=-However, there is nothing in AE writing (apart from writings by people who don't get it) to suggest any of the things you mention, Sandra. School at home is not AE. Relationships and connection definitely comes first and many AEors come to it from attachment parenting.-=-

Good.
I don't mind being wrong!  

I wish I hadn't been shushed so much so long, and dismissed, but there were always people reading about unschooling from the UK because the internet doesn't stop at the border.   

Sandra

Quite right, there were always people reading about unschooling from the UK because ideas don't have borders.  When I was exploring these ideas I found it baffling that there were people in the UK who said they were AE who simply dismissed the ideas around unschooling.  The AE lists in the UK are quiet now, I think that's partly because lists like this meet people's needs better.  Having a more international conversation makes so much more sense.

Just because we have another word for it doesn't mean we shouldn't want to listen to people who have a different word for it. So I'm sorry if you were shushed or dismissed that wasn't very open-minded.

Elizabeth

<groups@...>

=-I'm trying to say that I don't think it's a US vs UK thing, just a thing. -=-

It's not a contest, and unschooling isn't "A US thing".  It was a defensive position involving "Autonomous Ed" (which only existed in the UK) for many years.   
In equating that with unschooling every time unschooling came up, many people were kept from exploring unschooling earlier."

Hmm maybe, but maybe by relating/equating the two  people who were interested in AE were led to explore unschooling.  I suspect that to be the case, certainly in discussions on AE I would often recommend your writing.  I think people have tired of the old "Unschooling is different, it's an American thing" argument, but you are right it is what was said.  I think it was a lazy response from people who thought they knew enough on the topic and weren't interested in learning more  or seeing the subject from different angles, shame that.

"And I think putting a name on a practice without it having a lot of philosophy and discussion behind it, while discouraging people from looking elsewhere was good for magazine sales, but not as good for parents and children."

TBH There was a great deal of discussion on the TCS list in years gone by and on the AEUK list Jan Fortune Wood bashed out her ideas in some pretty intense debates and evolved them in her books over the years.   If Mike Fortune Wood  was discouraging people from looking elsewhere I don't think it was successful as people in the UK do read about unschooling.  Interestingly his magazines were more generally about Home Education, not so much specifically about Autonomous Education.

There are many influences that have formed my parenting, not least the experience of trying out ideas and seeing how they improve our family life.  The things I have read about a thing called unschooling have been very helpful. The things I have read about TCS and Autonomous Education have been similarly helpful and had similar positive effects.  I have not been forced or persuaded by any of the authors to only read their ideas or ideas they suggest I read.  That's one thing I love about books, I can agree with the author on some points and disagree on others, find some ideas useful and ignore others and we need never fall out.  John Holt and AS Neil are examples of people no longer alive who have both inspired me and enabled me to parent in a way that is different to most of those around me, and yet I don't agree with everything in their books.  I am still so very grateful for the inspiration that I have found useful.

It's wonderful too to talk to people who are parenting in this time to see how they build on those ideas and put them into practice.  This list is great for that. 

Many thanks
Elizabeth

Sandra Dodd

-=--=-- don't US home educators shush and dismiss you too at times? -=--=-

This week an Australian education professor (not a very good one, I feel) tried to shush me.  He had asked to meet me after the interview.  I wonder in retrospect whether it wasn't an intimidation move, for me to think through the interview that he wanted to talk to me after.

I had just made the point to people in public, though, that weekend or the one before (Adelaide, I think, so a week before) that someone had sked me in France who I would be afraid to discuss this with, and I said nobody.  Not the minister of education of a nation.  Nothing anyone else says can change the fact that my family is more peaceful, my kids grew up happier than most of their friends who were in school, they learned to read on their own.

Sandra