Sandra Dodd

Someone who's joining the discussion wrote that their family was "leaning more towards an autonomous/un-schooling approach."

That reminded me that some months back I told some folks in the UK that I would bring up the difference.

Year before last, in an after-hours conversation with some of the speakers at a conference in the UK, Mike Fortune-Wood did admit that "autonomous education" (which he and his ex-wife had promoted and protected) was not ever the same as unschooling.

For years, when people mentioned unschooling on UK discussions, someone would say "We call it 'autonomous ed'." And sometimes Brits in international discussions would interject that "unschooling" wasn't a term to use in the UK, but that it was the same as autonomous education.

All along I was sure it was not the same, and when Mike confirmed it, I was too busy to tell people. :-)
I'm still pretty busy, but I'm glad for the catalyst.

So for those in the UK, they're not the same (as many have figured out over the years).
And for those NOT in the UK, the term "autonomous" when used as an ideal way to see a child, or a child's learning, is almost the opposite of the "attachment" in attachment parenting, or the partnership in "be your child's partner, not his adversary."

The best link to leave to go with this must be Pam Sorooshian's article Unschooling is not “Child-Led Learning”
http://learninghappens.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/unschooling-is-not-child-led-learning/

A family might like to feel autonomous, but to expect a child to be "autonomous" within the family is distancing.

I think that the "autonomous" in autonomous ed is a political position—separate from the state curriculum, perhaps, and not aligned with a particular distance learning situation or some such.

If there are others here with other takes on it, it might be helpful for future questions or comparisons or claims of sameness.

Sandra

Sarah McCaffrey

This is very interesting Sandra. The Pam Sorooshian article explains really well what unschooling is and is not. I would say that that IS what autonomous learning is too. In the early years with our kids we thought we were doing autonomous ed but, after reading here what Mike Fortune Wood said, I'm not sure! Maybe it was always unschooling. So I'd love to know what you understand the differences to be? If the autonomous term has to do with a political position is it possible for a family to be unschooling and educating autonomously at the same time? In my mind autonomous means that the child isn't forced into learning any particular thing in any particular way, as per school.

Sarah

> On 25 Mar 2014, at 00:16, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Someone who's joining the discussion wrote that their family was "leaning more towards an autonomous/un-schooling approach."
>
> That reminded me that some months back I told some folks in the UK that I would bring up the difference.
>
> Year before last, in an after-hours conversation with some of the speakers at a conference in the UK, Mike Fortune-Wood did admit that "autonomous education" (which he and his ex-wife had promoted and protected) was not ever the same as unschooling.
>
> For years, when people mentioned unschooling on UK discussions, someone would say "We call it 'autonomous ed'." And sometimes Brits in international discussions would interject that "unschooling" wasn't a term to use in the UK, but that it was the same as autonomous education.
>
> All along I was sure it was not the same, and when Mike confirmed it, I was too busy to tell people. :-)
> I'm still pretty busy, but I'm glad for the catalyst.
>
> So for those in the UK, they're not the same (as many have figured out over the years).
> And for those NOT in the UK, the term "autonomous" when used as an ideal way to see a child, or a child's learning, is almost the opposite of the "attachment" in attachment parenting, or the partnership in "be your child's partner, not his adversary."
>
> The best link to leave to go with this must be Pam Sorooshian's article Unschooling is not “Child-Led Learning”
> http://learninghappens.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/unschooling-is-not-child-led-learning/
>
> A family might like to feel autonomous, but to expect a child to be "autonomous" within the family is distancing.
>
> I think that the "autonomous" in autonomous ed is a political position—separate from the state curriculum, perhaps, and not aligned with a particular distance learning situation or some such.
>
> If there are others here with other takes on it, it might be helpful for future questions or comparisons or claims of sameness.
>
> Sandra
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Christine Milne

I'm from the UK, although now in Australia. I agree that autonomous as
perceived by most British people I know, is not the same thing as
unschooling. People using 'autonomous' tend to mean 'Child-lead'. Generally!

However, because unschooling is still a fairly unfamiliar term in the UK,
not least with the authorities that claim to 'monitor' home educators, I
have known some families that in my opinion ARE unschooling, yet call it
'autonomous education'.

When I submitted a report to our authority a couple of years ago, I too
described our approach as autonomous. I don't think that was helpful to
unschoolers in the long term, but I wanted a quick acceptance of my approach
and I knew that this was a term they recognised. Here in Australia it
appears that 'Natural Learning' is the accepted terminology by the
authorities, although I'm still learning about this.

It does matter, what we call things, because unschooling resources are not
necessarily to be found by googling 'autonomous'. Unschooling is a very
specific thing, and it is so much more than being 'child-lead'.

Christine Milne

Joyce Fetteroll


On Mar 25, 2014, at 4:26 AM, Sarah McCaffrey <vardenroad@...> wrote:

If the autonomous term has to do with a political position is it possible
for a family to be unschooling and educating autonomously at the same time?


Confusion happens when people redefine words for their own purposes and then those words are taken out of that context ;-)

In the context of being free from a government curriculum, then autonomous learning makes sense. Self-governing learning. Independent learning. Self-determined learning. The phrase can be understood to apply to parents who aren't following a government dictated curriculum. The parents are making it up the course of learning themselves. And that can apply to what's called unschooling in the US or to any way of learning that isn't government dictated.

But the phrase "autonomous learning" already had a meaning, at least in the US. It means a person of any age who has taken control of their own learning. Generally it's been embraced by teens and young adults who are rejecting educational courses laid out by others and pursuing their own path. Traditionally it will look very focused and perhaps even academic.

"Autonomous learners" *does* get tossed about casually to mean unschooling. But that's just confusing. It creates a picture of kids who are doing all the driving of their learning while their parents step back to take care of their physical needs.

So asking a variety of people whether you can be "unschooling and educating autonomously" will just get you a wide range of confusing answers  ;-)

Communication happens when I get an idea in my head into your head. People *think* that just by putting their ideas into words, that when another hears those words, that means the other person then has the idea. But that's not true. If we don't both have the same definitions for the words I use, then you may form a very different idea from my words. That's why all the focus here on choosing words carefully. Communication isn't as easy as just talking!

"Educating autonomously" is one of those phrases that can't be confidently used to convey an idea. As Christine points out, the term is best used in a formal context with authorities who recognize the word. Using "unschooling" will just confuse them. But using "autonomous learning" outside that context, will confuse more than communicate.

Joyce

<groups@...>

I don't know the Fortune Woods personally and I don't know their, now adult, children but I've been involved in email discussions here in the UK about Autonomous Education.   But DH and I have found their writings useful in developing our parenting. 

I have seen Mike FW say on email lists a number of times that AE is not the same as Unschooling and I believe that he says this because he has not taken the time to understand unschooling as it is described here on this list and in Sandra's books and Pam's.  He has in the past said that "unschooling" is an American term and includes those who use some "school at home" methods of education or those who allow freedom in learning but see other aspects of life as needing more parental direction like diet, bedtimes, choice of clothes etc.  That is very different to the Unschooling described on this list.  I'd be interested to know Sandra if in your conversation he developed a better understanding of what "Unschooling" meant. 


AE and Unschooling will of course look different in different homes and will of course depend on how parents understand the philosophies and on how they learn to practice them in their families.


I think that either an AE or Unschooling parent could look at my family and each see similarity to their own parenting.  I think the two are similar and they influence each other, certainly here in the UK

This is a link to an article on AE by Jan Fortune Wood

http://www.home-education.org.uk/articles/article-autonomous-education.pdf

Her book Winning Parent Winning Child has also been useful for us.  For me personally I enjoy the experience and thoughts that are shared in the Unschooling books and discussions but I find the discussion on the theory of learning that is in Jan Fortune Wood's books specifically helpful in improving both my own thinking and learning and in directing the way I observe and support my children's learning.


This is a document describing Autonomous Education put together by a group of AE parents in 2009 when the UK government were seeking to regulate HE in a way that would have made AE/Unschooling potentially impossible.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmchilsch/memo/elehomed/me16402.htm

I think unschoolers will see a similarity between  what is described and how they educate their children.


I don't agree that "Autonomous Education" is simply child led.  Parents I know who refer to themselves as AE tend to be engaged, connected and supportive, they tend to strew, inspire and stimulate as well as spending time observing what the child loves and enabling them to follow their interests.

There are of course some parents who say they are AE who do not do these things so much but that is true of some parents who say they are Unschooling.


It seems though that the term Autonomous Education is used less in the UK recently unless as Joyce describes when communicating with authorities. I think it's a preferable term for those purposes as the term "Unschooling" is more liable to be misunderstood by educational professionals.


It is, as others have said, all about how we use these words, it's often clearer to describe what we do than to simply use labels and assume that others have the same meaning for those labels as we do.

Elizabeth


<groups@...>

Sandra said:


"And for those NOT in the UK, the term "autonomous" when used as an ideal way to see a child, or a child's learning, is almost the opposite of the "attachment" in attachment parenting, or the partnership in "be your child's partner, not his adversary."


I have never heard "Autonomous Education" described by anyone practicing it as the "opposite of attachment parenting" , certainly those who practice it see the child as a separate entity to the parent but the parental role is very much a supportive, attaching and connecting one.


" A family might like to feel autonomous, but to expect a child to be "autonomous" within the family is distancing."

Certainly for a child to be autonomous within a family could be distancing if that were to mean detached and unsupported but Autonomous Education as I understand it is not about distance from parents but about the kind of connection and support  that enables emotional growth and autonomous learning

 "I think that the "autonomous" in autonomous ed is a political position—separate from the state curriculum, perhaps, and not aligned with a particular distance learning situation or some such."

I've never seen it that way, that is of course a minor/secondary aspect of it but it's mainly a way of understanding that learning works well when there is intrinsic as opposed to extrinsic motivation.  Though that in itself may well be a pretty political statement. ;-)


The intrinsic/extrinsic argument could also have us going round in circles as all learning is related to stimulus outside us as individuals. But here I mean that the learning is not imposed by another person or educational system. The environment needs to be motivating and the parent will of course be supporting and enabling the child's motivation just not driving it.

I think it's respectful to understand that people may well be describing their parenting practice as AE and it may well be very similar to Unschooling. 

best wishes

Elizabeth

Sandra Dodd

-=-  I'd be interested to know Sandra if in your conversation he developed a better understanding of what "Unschooling" meant. -=-

I don't think he's that interested.  I DO think he understood enough, that day after hearing several people talk about unschooling to be referring to that when he said it wasn't the same.  It was in a discussion of what unschooling is that it came up.  No one was there but the organizers (who had spoken, too), myself, and one other speaker from the day.  

-=-I think that either an AE or Unschooling parent could look at my family and each see similarity to their own parenting.  I think the two are similar and they influence each other, certainly here in the UK-=-

The families I met who claimed AE rather than unschooling seemed (in a rough characterization now, referring to a dozen or so families in two places—not a scientific sample) more political, strident, reactionary and dependent on group activities than the unschoolers I know.    It seemed from families I stayed with that there was more schoolishness at home, and lots of meet-ups, but not so much parents-with-kids activities as kids in one place and parents in another, or structured field trips.

For me, if I were categorizing it, I would put them more with eclectic homeschoolers (picking and choosing from methodologies).

Relationships didn't seem to come first for them.  That wasn't the emphasis.
Deeper investigation into how learning works didn't seem to be part of the discussions.

-=-I think unschoolers will see a similarity between  what is described and how they educate their children.-=-

I don't think unschoolers consider themselves to be "educating their children."

Sandra


Lisa Celedon

<<Her book Winning Parent Winning Child>>

The idea of someone winning, in terms of learning, already strikes me as different from unschooling. It's still working within the context of a system of learning (imposed or not) in which there are winners and losers.

I am not suggesting that the book you're talking about advocates for competition-based learning or living, but the word choice in the title suggests the author at least might think in those terms, which would affect what they have to say about living and learning, in any capacity.  I'm completely unfamiliar with the book and have never heard of it until now.  But even if the parents 'win' *and* the child 'wins', that still doesn't seem like a mindset that is useful for unschooling.  

Lisa C

Clare Kirkpatrick

It refers to the idea that without coercion, everyone wins.


Sent from Samsung Mobile



-------- Original message --------
From: Lisa Celedon <lisajceledon@...>
Date: 26/03/2014 14:43 (GMT+00:00)
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: "autonomous" vs. unschooling


 

<<Her book Winning Parent Winning Child>>


The idea of someone winning, in terms of learning, already strikes me as different from unschooling. It's still working within the context of a system of learning (imposed or not) in which there are winners and losers.

I am not suggesting that the book you're talking about advocates for competition-based learning or living, but the word choice in the title suggests the author at least might think in those terms, which would affect what they have to say about living and learning, in any capacity.  I'm completely unfamiliar with the book and have never heard of it until now.  But even if the parents 'win' *and* the child 'wins', that still doesn't seem like a mindset that is useful for unschooling.  

Lisa C

Sandra Dodd

-=-It refers to the idea that without coercion, everyone wins.-=-

"Win-win situation"  Makes sense.

The results might be the same, and that's fine. 

My first principle was learning.  Some people's were non-coercion.  Some were other things.  

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-My first principle was learning.-=-

Maybe in the larger picture (before we knew we would be unschooling) it was partnership—being each child's partner.  But that turned quickly into being his partner in learning, and if learning is always in mind, learning always happens.

Sandra

<groups@...>

-=-I think unschoolers will see a similarity between  what is described and how they educate their children.-=-

I don't think unschoolers consider themselves to be "educating their children."

Of course, the TCS and AE folk might have a go at me for using that word too. :-)
That's another wonderful discussion defining the boundaries or teaching, learning, education, parenting, enabling, suporting...
I'll have it in my own head instead of here, off to make a Yorkshire Pudding with gravy for my minecrafting children.
Elizabeth