<lisajceledon@...>

I need help looking at this, and seeing my options for moving toward kindness, and peace.
My 4 yr old is being rude to his father a lot, and myself, at times.  He's pretty sweet in general, and friendly and kind.  He is sweet to my husband when he wants something from him.  I think his rudeness is mostly coming from a lot of accumulated, pent-up frustrations and anger and powerlessness.
How to address it has been swirling around in my head for a few weeks, and I've tried different things.  Mostly I keep coming back to, addressing my own tendency toward impatience and rudeness first makes the most sense.
We (my husband and I ) have often been rude to him, with our tone and our words.  When I hear my son being rude, I hear an echo of my husband and I.  
For months I have being paying attention to my words and my tone, being kinder and more patient, but I am still occasionally using a rude tone.  When I catch it, I apologize and rephrase.  
It REALLY bothers my husband when his son talks to him rudely.  Things get really tense really quickly between them.
I've noticed that I get anxious about it too, that they're having these interactions.  I know the anxiety I'm feeling isn't helpful to either of them (or me for that matter), and I think it comes from this feeling of, "I don't know how to make this better."
My guess also, is that the anxiety is interfering with my ability to really watch and see what is working and what isn't... 
I feel like part of what my son is doing is experimenting with powerful language.  He tends toward tense and reactive, he gets overwhelmed quickly with too many words (and I've tended toward being too much of a talker), and is quick to yell and get emotional.
An example that comes to mind is last night my husband came home with two new toy cars for the boys, it was so sweet, and I could tell he was happy about it, but when he showed it to my son, Josh frowned and his whole body drooped and he said, "Ugh, I didn't want this, daddy," in an irritated tone.  I think he was expecting something familiar - when his dad brings home something, it's usually a specific kind of candy, and he was irritated at it not being what he expected.  He actually played with the car right away and enjoyed it.  I told my husband (later) that I thought it was such a sweet gesture, and that Josh seemed really thrown off by the surprise.  It feels like I'm making excuses for him, at least, I know my husband feels that way about it. 
What I said to Josh, a little later, was "when you say 'I didn't want this,' it hurts people's feelings, I think it hurt daddy's feelings."  He interrupted me mid-sentence, talking over me and changing the subject (I know he does this when he's feeling overwhelmed by what I'm saying).  I didn't know what else to say or do.  
Later that evening they were playing a video game together and my son kept saying things like, "Ex-CUSE-me, I SAID not to JUMP! Ugh!"  Another thing he's been saying a lot lately is, "UGH, fine, whatever!" This is something his dad says to him when they're having a struggle over something - like, when my husband is telling my son to do something or not do something, and they start arguing, My husband will usually end it with, "Fine, whatever, do what you want." I've been intervening as quickly as I can in these cases, either helping my son do what his father asked, or removing him from doing whatever he's being asked not to do.    
I've tried various verbal approaches with Josh, "that's not a nice way to talk to someone who is trying to help you play," "I don't want to play if you're going to talk to me like that-" he usually gets really upset when I say that.  "I won't let you talk to daddy that way." "Don't talk to me like that." 
I've also offered alternative, more polite phrasing, and he seems most receptive to that approach.  

I think where I'm getting stuck is in having difficulty accepting that THIS is where my son is, right now, and I'm feeling anxious to change him into a nicer, more polite little boy.  I know this is not helpful, or very kind.

My husband suggested that he's learning all these phrases and rude attitude from let's play you tube videos, and when I've said things like, 'I don't know, he really kind of reminds me of us,' he gets pretty huffy.  

I think my first step with this is to breathe and relax more about it; to accept my son as he is right now (a little boy who is doing his best to talk and assert himself with the parents he loves, and to have his voice heard, who is dealing with strong feelings of anger and frustration, the way he's learned is appropriate from the people he loves). To accept that *I* haven't been the best example in the past, and that changing myself isn't happening overnight, but moment by moment.  What works when it's just me and him is for me to respond gently to whatever he's trying to express, "I fell in that hole and now we have to start over," and then maybe add sometimes, "please be gentle with me. I'm doing my best."  And keep it fun and lighthearted, on my end.  I have a harder time knowing what to say or do when it's him and my husband.  I understand how they both feel.  I don't think it's okay for my son to be rude to his dad (or anyone), and I don't think it's okay for my husband to be rude to our son, either.  I've often been rude in expressing these things to both of them.  So, I'm feeling insecure about how to approach this in a way that will be helpful and kind for them both.  

Thanks

Lisa C   

kirkpatrick clare

Hi Lisa

It may be helpful to remind yourself of your son's young age. He is only four - he's tiny! All children will go through phases of experimenting with how they talk. Don't panic. Just because he's not learning it *right now* doesn't mean he won't learn it ever. And remind your DH of this.

I've learned that with adults who are rude as well as children, you can 'take the wind out of their sails' by responding with genuine, loving kindness, as if the rudeness wasn't there at all. I hope it doesn't make them feel ashamed of how they spoke as shame is a horrid feeling, but I have noticed it makes them aware of how they spoke in contrast to the way they're responded to...maybe? Anyway, that may help...intentionally responding to the example you gave with an genuinely kind and concerned 'Oh, I'm really sorry. I didn't want to get you something that would upset you. What could I do to make it better for you? Shall I take it back and bring something else tomorrow when I come home?' may well have been met with 'Oh, actually, it's pretty cool. Thank you.'

I also remind them before we have a present opening session, like at Christmas for example, that if they don't like what they're given, it's kinder to the giver to pretend you like it - not over the top, but to say thank you graciously. I try not to reprimand afterwards...so it's kind of pro-active rather than re-active. My 7yo opened a present from my sister this year that she'd already been given the day before. She gave no indication of disappointment whatsoever! She said thank you, smiled and looked over at me...of course I winked at her and later said how amazed I was at how she responded and if she was disappointed, we could take it to the shop and swap it for something she'd prefer in private or we could let Aunty Carla know quietly and I know she'd be more than happy to swap it for her - whichever my DD preferred. She was concerned about upsetting Aunty Carla (although she wouldn't have been upset - she's lovely) so chose to swap it discreetly. 

When I forget to respond kindly, but I have enough presence of mind not to respond crossly, I tend to say things like 'you may not have meant it that way, but that sounded really rude. Next time can you change your tone of voice as it's upsetting to be spoken to the way you just spoke to me.' My third DD (7) says 'Mummy' in a really demanding, cross way at the moment. She doesn't know she's doing it. I demonstrated to her the difference between different tones of voice the other day and she's trying really hard to get out of the habit (I think these things do become habits...just like our own reactions to things...we realise how ingrained they are in us when our children do it back at us!).

Like you, I also hear my words and tone of voice in my children so I am honest about my own attempts to try to speak more nicely by saying things like 'I'm sorry, I spoke rudely - we'll have to help each other remember to try to speak more kindly' often and when I need to remind them, I say 'I know I forget sometimes too, so I'm not cross, just pointing it out because I don't think you wanted to be rude.'

I've spent a long time 'refining' my approach to 'rudeness' and trusting that my children will learn things if they're told it kindly often enough over time. We've never punished rudeness, but we have got cross at times...which never works and always makes the situation worse. The rudeness usually abates very quickly when we're calm and loving and trusting about it.

I hope that helps and also that it fits with unschooling principles...I'm eager to understand why not if it doesn't :)

D. Regan

There is a lot of unrest in the post, which family members are probably also feeling.  There is a sense of wanting to control the little things so that the big picture works.  If instead, you start with accepting the little things, and being more mindful of the big things, like being kind, and seeing and appreciating and supporting your family, you will handle the little things with the kindness and sensitivity that will help life flow more peacefully.  Sometimes people get stuck on attempting to control the details, and miss nurturing and enjoying peace and joy in the family.  Years can go by like that.

I think my first step with this is to breathe and relax more about it; to accept my son as he is right now 

Yes! :)  Be stiller, be more accepting of what is.  Jumping in to fix things with lots of words while agitated won't help.   Don't start with a picture of how things should be and keep trying to make them like that.  Start with acceptance of how things are.  When you are able to do that, you will see so much better how to support your family.

I've tried various verbal approaches with Josh, "that's not a nice way to talk to someone who is trying to help you play," 

What I said to Josh, a little later, was "when you say 'I didn't want this,' it hurts people's feelings, I think it hurt daddy's feelings." 

Attempts to teach?  Help your 4 year old where he is at, not where you're at.  It won't help him, for you to try to get him to see it how you see it.  See the world as he sees it and help him there.  Learning to be still enough to be present to other family members and yourself, can take time and practice.  But it's very worth it.  At first it may help to put some of your words down in a journal or blog, rather than continuing to speak it all aloud.

Don't see the rude and try to stop it; see Josh and help him be happy and have happy interactions. 

:)
Debbie.

On 16/02/2014, at 9:20 PM, <lisajceledon@...> wrote:



I need help looking at this, and seeing my options for moving toward kindness, and peace.
My 4 yr old is being rude to his father a lot, and myself, at times.  He's pretty sweet in general, and friendly and kind.  He is sweet to my husband when he wants something from him.  I think his rudeness is mostly coming from a lot of accumulated, pent-up frustrations and anger and powerlessness.
How to address it has been swirling around in my head for a few weeks, and I've tried different things.  Mostly I keep coming back to, addressing my own tendency toward impatience and rudeness first makes the most sense.
We (my husband and I ) have often been rude to him, with our tone and our words.  When I hear my son being rude, I hear an echo of my husband and I.  
For months I have being paying attention to my words and my tone, being kinder and more patient, but I am still occasionally using a rude tone.  When I catch it, I apologize and rephrase.  
It REALLY bothers my husband when his son talks to him rudely.  Things get really tense really quickly between them.
I've noticed that I get anxious about it too, that they're having these interactions.  I know the anxiety I'm feeling isn't helpful to either of them (or me for that matter), and I think it comes from this feeling of, "I don't know how to make this better."
My guess also, is that the anxiety is interfering with my ability to really watch and see what is working and what isn't... 
I feel like part of what my son is doing is experimenting with powerful language.  He tends toward tense and reactive, he gets overwhelmed quickly with too many words (and I've tended toward being too much of a talker), and is quick to yell and get emotional.
An example that comes to mind is last night my husband came home with two new toy cars for the boys, it was so sweet, and I could tell he was happy about it, but when he showed it to my son, Josh frowned and his whole body drooped and he said, "Ugh, I didn't want this, daddy," in an irritated tone.  I think he was expecting something familiar - when his dad brings home something, it's usually a specific kind of candy, and he was irritated at it not being what he expected.  He actually played with the car right away and enjoyed it.  I told my husband (later) that I thought it was such a sweet gesture, and that Josh seemed really thrown off by the surprise.  It feels like I'm making excuses for him, at least, I know my husband feels that way about it. 
What I said to Josh, a little later, was "when you say 'I didn't want this,' it hurts people's feelings, I think it hurt daddy's feelings."  He interrupted me mid-sentence, talking over me and changing the subject (I know he does this when he's feeling overwhelmed by what I'm saying).  I didn't know what else to say or do.  
Later that evening they were playing a video game together and my son kept saying things like, "Ex-CUSE-me, I SAID not to JUMP! Ugh!"  Another thing he's been saying a lot lately is, "UGH, fine, whatever!" This is something his dad says to him when they're having a struggle over something - like, when my husband is telling my son to do something or not do something, and they start arguing, My husband will usually end it with, "Fine, whatever, do what you want." I've been intervening as quickly as I can in these cases, either helping my son do what his father asked, or removing him from doing whatever he's being asked not to do.    
I've tried various verbal approaches with Josh, "that's not a nice way to talk to someone who is trying to help you play," "I don't want to play if you're going to talk to me like that-" he usually gets really upset when I say that.  "I won't let you talk to daddy that way." "Don't talk to me like that." 
I've also offered alternative, more polite phrasing, and he seems most receptive to that approach.  

I think where I'm getting stuck is in having difficulty accepting that THIS is where my son is, right now, and I'm feeling anxious to change him into a nicer, more polite little boy.  I know this is not helpful, or very kind.

My husband suggested that he's learning all these phrases and rude attitude from let's play you tube videos, and when I've said things like, 'I don't know, he really kind of reminds me of us,' he gets pretty huffy.  

I think my first step with this is to breathe and relax more about it; to accept my son as he is right now (a little boy who is doing his best to talk and assert himself with the parents he loves, and to have his voice heard, who is dealing with strong feelings of anger and frustration, the way he's learned is appropriate from the people he loves). To accept that *I* haven't been the best example in the past, and that changing myself isn't happening overnight, but moment by moment.  What works when it's just me and him is for me to respond gently to whatever he's trying to express, "I fell in that hole and now we have to start over," and then maybe add sometimes, "please be gentle with me. I'm doing my best."  And keep it fun and lighthearted, on my end.  I have a harder time knowing what to say or do when it's him and my husband.  I understand how they both feel.  I don't think it's okay for my son to be rude to his dad (or anyone), and I don't think it's okay for my husband to be rude to our son, either.  I've often been rude in expressing these things to both of them.  So, I'm feeling insecure about how to approach this in a way that will be helpful and kind for them both.  

Thanks

Lisa C   




<plaidpanties666@...>

>>It REALLY bothers my husband when his son talks to him rudely.  Things get really tense really quickly between them.<<

It could be useful to think about what parents "get" from a child's courtesy. It's a massive ego stroke. It says "I'm a good parent" and "I am appreciated". The trouble is, most kids aren't very good at stroking their parents egos - certainly most 4yos aren't unless everything's going well in the moment And they're in the mood to pay attention to the people around them and stroke their egos. So rather than looking for ways to smooth things over between dad and son, maybe look for other ways to help dad feel good about himself. You be the one to tell him he's loved and appreciated. Notice his good qualities (out loud, to him). Notice when he's thoughtful and patient and kind. Don't try to teach him to be a better dad, help him feel good about who he is right now so he has some faith in his own ability to be even better. 

>> What works when it's just me and him is for me to respond gently to whatever he's trying to express, "I fell in that hole and now we have to start over," and then maybe add sometimes, "please be gentle with me. I'm doing my best."<<

If you've already told stories like that to your husband, then don't repeat them, but if you haven't, tell him some things that work for you. Once or twice. Then drop it. Ask him if he wants you to step in when things get tense or not - he might feel like it's criticism, and that's not helpful. It could be better to stay out of it for now and offer each of them support separately. You can't fix his relationship with his son for him, but you can push them further apart by getting in the middle too much. 

---Meredith

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 16, 2014, at 5:20 AM, lisajceledon@... wrote:

> I've tried various verbal approaches with Josh, "that's not a nice way to talk
> to someone who is trying to help you play," "I don't want to play if you're
> going to talk to me like that-" he usually gets really upset when I say that.
> "I won't let you talk to daddy that way." "Don't talk to me like that."

That doesn't sound much different than what he's saying. He gets a present he doesn't like, so he's critical. You hear something you don't like, so you're critical.

You're assuming he's saying what he feels because he doesn't understand. But either he *can't* (yet) understand. Or he doesn't know *how* to act differently. Intellectually knowing something isn't the same as knowing how to do it.

It *is* pretty high level thought to put your feelings into words and then try to image how someone else will feel about those words. It's going to be a rare 4 yo who can do that. I think it's not until kids are 5 or 6 before they grasp that others don't share their feelings. In other words if they're doing something they think is fun, they just don't get that it's possible the other person isn't feeling the same.

> I've also offered alternative, more polite phrasing, and he seems most receptive to that approach.

Yes, do that. He's barely had any experience with social interactions. They're complex! And he needs to see and hear how it's done lots and lots and lots to grasp it. But don't turn each instance into a lesson with the expectation that he learn what you're teaching. Make it short and quick. Give him the opportunity to absorb.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=- I think his rudeness is mostly coming from a lot of accumulated, pent-up frustrations and anger and powerlessness.-=-

But he's getting chances to be more powerful and less frustrated, right?  Some of that "pent-up" pressure should be dissipating?

Depending how verbal he is, you could flatly say "We're trying to nicer to you; please try to be sweet."

-=- He tends toward tense and reactive, he gets overwhelmed quickly with too many words (and I've tended toward being too much of a talker)-=-

I do too (talk too much) and it's hard not to when you're concerned that maybe you haven't yet said just the right thing, I know.  

-=- It feels like I'm making excuses for him, at least, I know my husband feels that way about it. -=-

I bet you also make excuses for your husband, to your son.  That's okay.  

-=-What I said to Josh, a little later, was "when you say 'I didn't want this,' it hurts people's feelings, I think it hurt daddy's feelings."  He interrupted me mid-sentence, talking over me and changing the subject (I know he does this when he's feeling overwhelmed by what I'm saying)-=-

He probably heard you, though, right?  Or he wouldn't have changed the subject.  

-=-I've tried various verbal approaches with Josh, "that's not a nice way to talk to someone who is trying to help you play," "I don't want to play if you're going to talk to me like that-" he usually gets really upset when I say that.  "I won't let you talk to daddy that way." "Don't talk to me like that." 
I've also offered alternative, more polite phrasing, and he seems most receptive to that approach.  -=-

Word count, on your examples.  
16 words:  that's not a nice way to talk to someone who is trying to help you play  
14 words:  I don't want to play if you're going to talk to me like that
9 words:  I won't let you talk to daddy that way
6 words:   Don't talk to me like that.

They all start negatively, too, and if he's a master at changing directions as soon as he doesn't want to listen to you, he only hears the negative.

I just recently spent two weeks with a four year old who had been in a really rude home before, and there were a few times I said something.    But I started with "Be nice."   Sometimes I ended with "be nice.   "Be nicer, or I don't want to play" was a long one.

She was super receptive to the idea of being nicer, because she wasn't trying to be mean.  She was acting the way she was used to acting.  And when we took parts, sometimes she wanted to play a mean role—either a mean mom or a mean kid.  I would play a bit, but try to turn the play to not liking the meanness.

Once I just stood up and started straightening up the room.  She slumped and said "Aren't we playing pizza shop?" and I said I didn't want to play.  "Why"  "I don't like it when you're mean."  So she invited me back and adjusted the game so she wasn't being the mean boss who was threatening to fire me and throw me out every time I did what she told me to do. :-) She would wad up my playdoh pizza and say "WRONG!  You're fired!"   :-)  

So it wasn't really that she had hurt my real feelings, it was an opportunity for me to "play options" with her, for her, because I knew I was going home soon, and she would be around other people, and it couldn't hurt for her to have those scenarios in her repertoire.  Someone might just stand up and walk away.  Someone might ask her to be nicer, or not play.

-=-What works when it's just me and him is for me to respond gently to whatever he's trying to express, "I fell in that hole and now we have to start over," and then maybe add sometimes, "please be gentle with me. I'm doing my best." -=-

I wouldn't say "please be gentle with me, I'm doing my best."  It's too whipped-dog sounding, to me.  It's too (I'm not thinking of the word... beggy).  Obsequious.

"I'm doing my best" is enough.  If you say "please be gentle with me" and you really are asking, he should be as good to say NO as "okay, you're right."  

I don't think it's rude for you to coach him before a video game session that he should be nice.

Short phrases.  Reminders.  Not long reasons.  He knows why.  

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

I agree with everything Debbie wrote except the first part of this: 

-=-Don't see the rude and try to stop it; see Josh and help him be happy and have happy interactions. -=-

If a mom sees the rude and doesn't comment, the child can come to believe that it was not a problem.

There are behaviors that mothers SHOULD point out, for the good of the team.  For the good of her child from the point of view of his partner who should advise him.

The bad behavior DOES reflect on the mom.

Transitions from rules to principles are going to be lumpy, and there can be difficulties which will naturally resolve themselves.   Passing by a video game disagreement no matter who the two (or three) people getting heated are and saying "Marty, chill" or "Kirby, give him a chance" isn't evil.   If someone's working on something in the dark and you shine a flashlight just for a few seconds so they can see what they dropped, or have more light where they're looking, that's a big like a two-word "light" shone on a moment that could be about to end a game (and maybe a friendship, or peace in the house).

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=- I hope it doesn't make them feel ashamed of how they spoke as shame is a horrid feeling, -=-

Shame that a person feels naturally, based on his own self-reflection, isn't horrid.  

Shame heaped on and repeated and pointed at and punished is a bit much, but I've never even nearly seen that in an unschooling family.

If people don't sometimes regret a choice or action, how would they ever improve?  How could they make "better choices"?

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=- If someone's working on something in the dark and you shine a flashlight just for a few seconds so they can see what they dropped, or have more light where they're looking, that's a big like a two-word "light" shone on a moment that could be about to end a game (and maybe a friendship, or peace in the house).-=-

What!?  

I lost something, or left something.  Could I have some light on " that's a big like a two-word "light" shone on a moment that could be about to end a game "

I think I meant "that's a big help, like a two-word "light" shone on a moment...."  but even so, the phrase is so long it's too confusing.

Sorry.

I mean a little bit of help can go a long way.

Whew!  
Better.

Sandra

Karen James

>>>>>I've noticed that I get anxious about it too, that they're having these interactions.  I know the anxiety I'm feeling isn't helpful to either of them (or me for that matter), and I think it comes from this feeling of, "I don't know how to make this better."<<<<<

Something that helped me was to look closely at where my need to make things better was coming from.  I'll share something that was true for me.  My dad is a lifelong alcoholic.  He's in his eighties now, so can't physically get away with drinking as much as he used to, but he still drinks a lot more than I could ever tolerate.  From a very young age, my mom has talked with me about the issues she has faced with my dad's drinking.  I won't get into detail here, but the consequence of her confiding in me were that I took on the role of caregiver and problem solver.  Not in a good way.  In a controlling way.  I got my feelings of self-worth from fixing people.  

In recognizing why I felt the need to make things better, I uncovered the source of my anxiety when I couldn't achieve that goal.  I also began to recognize that I am not responsible for making things better for others.  I'm responsible for making things good for myself, and, sometimes, when it's welcome, using what I have learned to help others do the same for themselves. 

>>>>>An example that comes to mind is last night my husband came home with two new toy cars for the boys, it was so sweet, and I could tell he was happy about it, but when he showed it to my son, Josh frowned and his whole body drooped and he said, "Ugh, I didn't want this, daddy," in an irritated tone.<<<<<

What has worked in our family is for me to have a bit of a sense of humour in situations like this.  So maybe I would hop playfully over to dad and say "Is that for me!?  Thank you!" and start playing with the toy.  Good graces don't come easily.  Believe me I know.  It's taken me a lifetime to develop good enough ones.  :-)  The way I've learned is by trying on examples I see and like in others.  I like playfulness.  I like humour.  That's what I gravitate toward.  My family seems to appreciate that about me, so it works well in our home.  I find my lighter attitude softens the communication between both my husband and son, who are both quicker than me to offend.  

>>>>>It feels like I'm making excuses for him, at least, I know my husband feels that way about it.<<<<<

I think there are excuses and there are facts.  The reality is your son is only four and is just starting to learn how to interact with people graciously.  I have found that I can influence how my husband responds to situations by how I respond to situations.  If I cringe and look sorrowful, my husband feels that too and has a more negative reaction himself.  If I do my best to address the reality of the situation in as calm and lighthearted a way as I can muster, it helps him do the same.  After, when my son is out of earshot, I might offer my husband a chance to laugh and vent about it, but in a way that highlights the fact that my son is young and learning, and we're the one's he's learning from.  

Karen.


On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
 

-=- If someone's working on something in the dark and you shine a flashlight just for a few seconds so they can see what they dropped, or have more light where they're looking, that's a big like a two-word "light" shone on a moment that could be about to end a game (and maybe a friendship, or peace in the house).-=-


What!?  

I lost something, or left something.  Could I have some light on " that's a big like a two-word "light" shone on a moment that could be about to end a game "

I think I meant "that's a big help, like a two-word "light" shone on a moment...."  but even so, the phrase is so long it's too confusing.

Sorry.

I mean a little bit of help can go a long way.

Whew!  
Better.

Sandra


<anniel_5@...>

Something I try to do when my 4 year old in particular, and also my older kids, ask for something rudely, is to happily repeat the request in a politer way - so if Millie comes into the kitchen and says 'Mummy - drink!' I might say 'Would you like me to get you a drink?' and she usually smiles and says 'yes please' and the rudeness disappears. It helps me because it gives me a way to act that isn't reacting directly to the rudeness, and escalating the situation, and it helps her by seeing politer behaviour being modelled. It works well with my older kids too and even with my Mum, if she she's being snappy or stressed, I find if I can rephrase her request in kinder words, kind of a 'oh, would you like us to do .....' then she relaxes and seems pleased that someone understood her - in the past I would have reacted to the rude tone and we would have snapped at each other and the thing she asked for would have not got done or done unwillingly.
Annie