A bit bumpy?
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/29/02 11:43:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< There seems to be some kind of power struggle going on. If it is not
a power struggle, then the only other explanation is they don't
really get the nuances of unschooling and are arguing out of
ignorance. >>
Yes, I feel the same way. I won't import your quote right now, too much heat
going on for it to be helpful.
It seems after a certain amount of time at a list, a person should get the
feel for it or move on to a list that they find more helpful.
Ignorance is understandable, outright stupidity is annoying.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< There seems to be some kind of power struggle going on. If it is not
a power struggle, then the only other explanation is they don't
really get the nuances of unschooling and are arguing out of
ignorance. >>
Yes, I feel the same way. I won't import your quote right now, too much heat
going on for it to be helpful.
It seems after a certain amount of time at a list, a person should get the
feel for it or move on to a list that they find more helpful.
Ignorance is understandable, outright stupidity is annoying.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/29/02 11:43:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Any good theories here? >>
Ok, you asked.
These are necessarily good theories, nor proveable, but they are just my
theories after all....
I think some people think unschooling/homeschooling are synonamous (sp?) and
once they learn that there is a BIG difference, they either don't want to
admit they aren't unschooling, or they think that unschooling is a big, huge
definition and feel threatened when someone says "you aren't really doing
that".
Which I totally don't understand either, but it seems to piss some people off
to be told they aren't unschooling, as though unschoolers were saying "you
aren't allowed to use that label" instead of what is really being said.
I think they feel that people are trying to "own" unschooling, rather than
point them towards a better way of doing it.
At unschooling.com you've got even more to deal with, in the fact that you
have someone totally intimidated by you, Sandra. Not only intimidated, but
angry that you have helped a lot of people. There is a huge amount of
jealousy imo.
Some people crave power, others simply enjoy being activists, there is a big
difference.
I enjoy activism on the unschooling front (now that I finally, really get it
myself) as I think most of the people here and over there do.
But some people just want to control. They want new people to come to them
and follow their advice. They want everyone to notice them. And when most
people are noticing others, they have to throw little tantrums to get the
attention back to themselves.
Combine that with the intimidation factor, and you've got a conniving,
jealous, insecure problem.
ugh.
I think the intimidation with you Sandra, is because you can back up the
things you say with solid facts. A lot of people get put off when the words
they say get questioned over and over but the person questioning is always
able to back up their point.
I know that was hard for me at first.
But then it caused me to think more carefully about what I was saying and
whether it was true or not. Many things I previously said or believed were
just cassette tapes running, without too much thought attached.
Some will get miffed and blame you for it, others are able to self examine
and think about what is being said.
Fortunately, most people that can't handle self examination, or any real
thought on the matter, go away. They might come back when they're ready to
delve deeper, but they usually don't hang out going "nyah, nyah, you can't
tell me I'm not unschooling!" and argueing about sensible ideas.
Unfortunately for unschooling.com, we have exactly that problem right now.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< Any good theories here? >>
Ok, you asked.
These are necessarily good theories, nor proveable, but they are just my
theories after all....
I think some people think unschooling/homeschooling are synonamous (sp?) and
once they learn that there is a BIG difference, they either don't want to
admit they aren't unschooling, or they think that unschooling is a big, huge
definition and feel threatened when someone says "you aren't really doing
that".
Which I totally don't understand either, but it seems to piss some people off
to be told they aren't unschooling, as though unschoolers were saying "you
aren't allowed to use that label" instead of what is really being said.
I think they feel that people are trying to "own" unschooling, rather than
point them towards a better way of doing it.
At unschooling.com you've got even more to deal with, in the fact that you
have someone totally intimidated by you, Sandra. Not only intimidated, but
angry that you have helped a lot of people. There is a huge amount of
jealousy imo.
Some people crave power, others simply enjoy being activists, there is a big
difference.
I enjoy activism on the unschooling front (now that I finally, really get it
myself) as I think most of the people here and over there do.
But some people just want to control. They want new people to come to them
and follow their advice. They want everyone to notice them. And when most
people are noticing others, they have to throw little tantrums to get the
attention back to themselves.
Combine that with the intimidation factor, and you've got a conniving,
jealous, insecure problem.
ugh.
I think the intimidation with you Sandra, is because you can back up the
things you say with solid facts. A lot of people get put off when the words
they say get questioned over and over but the person questioning is always
able to back up their point.
I know that was hard for me at first.
But then it caused me to think more carefully about what I was saying and
whether it was true or not. Many things I previously said or believed were
just cassette tapes running, without too much thought attached.
Some will get miffed and blame you for it, others are able to self examine
and think about what is being said.
Fortunately, most people that can't handle self examination, or any real
thought on the matter, go away. They might come back when they're ready to
delve deeper, but they usually don't hang out going "nyah, nyah, you can't
tell me I'm not unschooling!" and argueing about sensible ideas.
Unfortunately for unschooling.com, we have exactly that problem right now.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/29/02 11:43:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<<Humorologists report a sharp
increase in jestive disorders, from mild irregularhilarity to full-
blown humorrhoids. Well, no need to worry about worry, or stress over
stress anymore! >>
<<
Deb L, who snorted coke this morning (diet) over the humorrhoids... >>
"Good grief...still? How redundant. Humorroidless. "
Aaaah, thanks for the laugh everyone. You're all so damn witty! These laughs
were really needed today.
Not to be a downer, but my Mom was buried a couple days ago, and my sis sent
me the pics last night via email. So I sat at the computer and cried for a
while before going to bed.
Then I get the joy of opening an Always Learning digest. Always uplifting it
should be called.
It's funny what a wonderful, uplifting and happy tone this list has compared
to the other. I wonder if any of the people that cry "you're being mean" at
Sandra ever notice the dichotomy?
Ren, who has never snorted coke (but did snort some Docs Hard Lemonade last
night when dh was being witty) :)
[email protected] writes:
<<Humorologists report a sharp
increase in jestive disorders, from mild irregularhilarity to full-
blown humorrhoids. Well, no need to worry about worry, or stress over
stress anymore! >>
<<
Deb L, who snorted coke this morning (diet) over the humorrhoids... >>
"Good grief...still? How redundant. Humorroidless. "
Aaaah, thanks for the laugh everyone. You're all so damn witty! These laughs
were really needed today.
Not to be a downer, but my Mom was buried a couple days ago, and my sis sent
me the pics last night via email. So I sat at the computer and cried for a
while before going to bed.
Then I get the joy of opening an Always Learning digest. Always uplifting it
should be called.
It's funny what a wonderful, uplifting and happy tone this list has compared
to the other. I wonder if any of the people that cry "you're being mean" at
Sandra ever notice the dichotomy?
Ren, who has never snorted coke (but did snort some Docs Hard Lemonade last
night when dh was being witty) :)
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/30/02 5:20:03 AM, starsuncloud@... writes:
<< or they think that unschooling is a big, huge
definition and feel threatened when someone says "you aren't really doing
that".
Which I totally don't understand either, but it seems to piss some people off
to be told they aren't unschooling, as though unschoolers were saying "you
aren't allowed to use that label" instead of what is really being said. I
think they feel that people are trying to "own" unschooling, rather than
point them towards a better way of doing it.>>
Sometimes it is just the former, though. As when someone who uses ABeka says
"but we unschool after 3:00 and in the summer."
When people say a spider isn't an insect are they trying to "own" spiders? <g>
I love when people say if a word isn't in the dictionary they can use it
however they want to. Some extend that to words IN the dictionary! <g> But
if no one had ever done that, Lewis Carroll couldn't have written that cool
thang (which is.... I wonder if I can find it).
Here's where I go to look things up when it's quicker than google
(occasionally): sandradodd.com/biblicalsticks which is a sub-page of
Thinking Sticks, and has links to two concordances--the KJV Bible, and to a
site with tons of literature you can search.
Got it. From Through the Looking Glass. But before pasting I must say that
for Christmas I gave away a DVD of the movie Jabberwocky, and that there is a
new gaming store in Albuquerque called "Clockwork Jabberwock," where my kids
play on Saturday nights.
"...There's glory
for you!'
`I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't--
till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for
you!"'
`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice
objected.
`When _I_ use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful
tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor
less.'
`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you CAN make words mean
so many different things.'
`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master--
that's all.'
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute
Humpty Dumpty began again. `They've a temper, some of them--
particularly verbs, they're the proudest--adjectives you can do
anything with, but not verbs--however, _I_ can manage the whole
lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what _I_ say!'
`Would you tell me, please,' said Alice `what that means?'
`Now you talk like a reasonable child,' said Humpty Dumpty,
looking very much pleased. `I meant by "impenetrability" that
we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well
if you'd mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don't
mean to stop here all the rest of your life.'
`That's a great deal to make one word mean,' Alice said in a
thoughtful tone.
`When I make a word do a lot of work like that,' said Humpty
Dumpty, `I always pay it extra.'
`Oh!' said Alice. She was too much puzzled to make any other
remark.
`Ah, you should see 'em come round me of a Saturday night,'
Humpty Dumpty went on, wagging his head gravely from side to
side: `for to get their wages, you know.'
(Alice didn't venture to ask what he paid them with; and so you
see I can't tell YOU.)
`You seem very clever at explaining words, Sir,' said Alice.
`Would you kindly tell me the meaning of the poem called
"Jabberwocky"?'
`Let's hear it,' said Humpty Dumpty. `I can explain all the
poems that were ever invented--and a good many that haven't
been invented just yet.'
This sounded very hopeful, so Alice repeated the first verse:
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
`That's enough to begin with,' Humpty Dumpty interrupted:
`there are plenty of hard words there. "BRILLIG" means four
o'clock in the afternoon--the time when you begin BROILING
things for dinner.'
`That'll do very well,' said Alice: and "SLITHY"?'
`Well, "SLITHY" means "lithe and slimy." "Lithe" is the same
as "active." You see it's like a portmanteau--there are two
meanings packed up into one word.'
`I see it now,' Alice remarked thoughtfully: `and what are
"TOVES"?'
`Well, "TOVES" are something like badgers--they're something
like lizards--and they're something like corkscrews.'
`They must be very curious looking creatures.'
`They are that,' said Humpty Dumpty: `also they make their
nests under sun-dials--also they live on cheese.'
`Andy what's the "GYRE" and to "GIMBLE"?'
`To "GYRE" is to go round and round like a gyroscope. To
"GIMBLE" is to make holes like a gimlet.' ..."
<< or they think that unschooling is a big, huge
definition and feel threatened when someone says "you aren't really doing
that".
Which I totally don't understand either, but it seems to piss some people off
to be told they aren't unschooling, as though unschoolers were saying "you
aren't allowed to use that label" instead of what is really being said. I
think they feel that people are trying to "own" unschooling, rather than
point them towards a better way of doing it.>>
Sometimes it is just the former, though. As when someone who uses ABeka says
"but we unschool after 3:00 and in the summer."
When people say a spider isn't an insect are they trying to "own" spiders? <g>
I love when people say if a word isn't in the dictionary they can use it
however they want to. Some extend that to words IN the dictionary! <g> But
if no one had ever done that, Lewis Carroll couldn't have written that cool
thang (which is.... I wonder if I can find it).
Here's where I go to look things up when it's quicker than google
(occasionally): sandradodd.com/biblicalsticks which is a sub-page of
Thinking Sticks, and has links to two concordances--the KJV Bible, and to a
site with tons of literature you can search.
Got it. From Through the Looking Glass. But before pasting I must say that
for Christmas I gave away a DVD of the movie Jabberwocky, and that there is a
new gaming store in Albuquerque called "Clockwork Jabberwock," where my kids
play on Saturday nights.
"...There's glory
for you!'
`I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't--
till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for
you!"'
`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice
objected.
`When _I_ use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful
tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor
less.'
`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you CAN make words mean
so many different things.'
`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master--
that's all.'
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute
Humpty Dumpty began again. `They've a temper, some of them--
particularly verbs, they're the proudest--adjectives you can do
anything with, but not verbs--however, _I_ can manage the whole
lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what _I_ say!'
`Would you tell me, please,' said Alice `what that means?'
`Now you talk like a reasonable child,' said Humpty Dumpty,
looking very much pleased. `I meant by "impenetrability" that
we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well
if you'd mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don't
mean to stop here all the rest of your life.'
`That's a great deal to make one word mean,' Alice said in a
thoughtful tone.
`When I make a word do a lot of work like that,' said Humpty
Dumpty, `I always pay it extra.'
`Oh!' said Alice. She was too much puzzled to make any other
remark.
`Ah, you should see 'em come round me of a Saturday night,'
Humpty Dumpty went on, wagging his head gravely from side to
side: `for to get their wages, you know.'
(Alice didn't venture to ask what he paid them with; and so you
see I can't tell YOU.)
`You seem very clever at explaining words, Sir,' said Alice.
`Would you kindly tell me the meaning of the poem called
"Jabberwocky"?'
`Let's hear it,' said Humpty Dumpty. `I can explain all the
poems that were ever invented--and a good many that haven't
been invented just yet.'
This sounded very hopeful, so Alice repeated the first verse:
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
`That's enough to begin with,' Humpty Dumpty interrupted:
`there are plenty of hard words there. "BRILLIG" means four
o'clock in the afternoon--the time when you begin BROILING
things for dinner.'
`That'll do very well,' said Alice: and "SLITHY"?'
`Well, "SLITHY" means "lithe and slimy." "Lithe" is the same
as "active." You see it's like a portmanteau--there are two
meanings packed up into one word.'
`I see it now,' Alice remarked thoughtfully: `and what are
"TOVES"?'
`Well, "TOVES" are something like badgers--they're something
like lizards--and they're something like corkscrews.'
`They must be very curious looking creatures.'
`They are that,' said Humpty Dumpty: `also they make their
nests under sun-dials--also they live on cheese.'
`Andy what's the "GYRE" and to "GIMBLE"?'
`To "GYRE" is to go round and round like a gyroscope. To
"GIMBLE" is to make holes like a gimlet.' ..."
[email protected]
>.. my Mom was buried a couple days ago,...Ren, It makes it all so fresh again. I'm so sorry.
Deb L
Sharon Rudd
> Ignorance is understandable, outright stupidity isStupidity is annoying, yes, but it refers to innate
> annoying.
ability to learn and use what has been learned. Us
stupid people really can't help it. Some of us stupids
are ignarant too, because we have learning problems,
but smart ignorant people are beyond my understanding.
Maybe it is because I am a stupid ignarant person, but
I think there is NO excuse for a smart adult person to
be ignorant in any area in which they choose to
participate and express opinions. I thought that being
informed about ones opinions was one of the qualities
that constituted being an adult.
Sharon of the Swamp
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/30/02 9:57:21 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< I want
no more guilt on me for the tears of frustrated children. I have more than
a lifetime's guilt from the years I taught in public school. >>
I don't think you should.
I know that statement isn't going to change how you feel.
But...
don't you think it could have been a HUGE reason why you have so much
insiders knowledge and are able to help people so much now?
Perhaps without that experience, you wouldn't have pointed quite so many
people or in quite so drastic a way, towards unschooling.
It all worked to bring about the way you help people now...so it was
important.
And maybe some of those students will do the same. You never know.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< I want
no more guilt on me for the tears of frustrated children. I have more than
a lifetime's guilt from the years I taught in public school. >>
I don't think you should.
I know that statement isn't going to change how you feel.
But...
don't you think it could have been a HUGE reason why you have so much
insiders knowledge and are able to help people so much now?
Perhaps without that experience, you wouldn't have pointed quite so many
people or in quite so drastic a way, towards unschooling.
It all worked to bring about the way you help people now...so it was
important.
And maybe some of those students will do the same. You never know.
Ren
[email protected]
<< I want
no more guilt on me for the tears of frustrated children. I have more than
a lifetime's guilt from the years I taught in public school. >>
Sandra,
I was thinking about what you said, and I had a different take on it. You
probably made school more bearable for the kids that had to be there. If a
kid MUST be in a classroom setting, they at least deserve a teacher who
understands and cares. <shrug> I don't think you need to carry that burden.
When all things come out in the wash at the end, I don't think it will be
counted against you. : )
pax,
Athena
no more guilt on me for the tears of frustrated children. I have more than
a lifetime's guilt from the years I taught in public school. >>
Sandra,
I was thinking about what you said, and I had a different take on it. You
probably made school more bearable for the kids that had to be there. If a
kid MUST be in a classroom setting, they at least deserve a teacher who
understands and cares. <shrug> I don't think you need to carry that burden.
When all things come out in the wash at the end, I don't think it will be
counted against you. : )
pax,
Athena
[email protected]
Hi, What does this mean?
<<pax,
Athena>>
Thanks
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
<<pax,
Athena>>
Thanks
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/1/02 5:39:46 AM, ElissaJC@... writes:
<< Hi, What does this mean?
<<pax,
Athena>> >>
Athena's her name and "pax" is Latin for "Peace"
<< Hi, What does this mean?
<<pax,
Athena>> >>
Athena's her name and "pax" is Latin for "Peace"
moonmeghan
<<<< These laughs
So sorry about your mom.
Meghan
> were really needed today.ago, and my sis sent
> Not to be a downer, but my Mom was buried a couple days
> me the pics last night via email. So I sat at the computer andcried for a
> while before going to bed.{{{{{{{{{{{Ren}}}}}}}}}}}}
> Ren>>>>
So sorry about your mom.
Meghan
moonmeghan
<<<<I love when people say if a word isn't in the dictionary they
can use it
Glass! I do believe it's time for me to read them again :-)
Meghan
can use it
> however they want to. Some extend that to words IN thedictionary! <g> But
> if no one had ever done that, Lewis Carroll couldn't have writtenthat cool
> thang (which is.... I wonder if I can find it).>>>>I just LOVE Alice and Wonderland and Through The Looking
Glass! I do believe it's time for me to read them again :-)
Meghan
moonmeghan
<<<<> Hi, What does this mean?
Pax means peace and Athena is her name.
Meghan :-)
> <<pax,I know you didn't ask me...but I thought I'd answer anyway <g>.
> Athena>>
>
> Thanks
> ~Elissa Cleaveland>>>>
Pax means peace and Athena is her name.
Meghan :-)
joanna514
--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., "moonmeghan" <moonmeghan@y...> wrote:
Joanna
>Jaberwalkee? (sp?)
> <<<<I love when people say if a word isn't in the dictionary they
> can use it
> > however they want to. Some extend that to words IN the
> dictionary! <g> But
> > if no one had ever done that, Lewis Carroll couldn't have written
> that cool
> > thang (which is.... I wonder if I can find it).>>>>
>
>
Joanna
Fetteroll
on 5/30/02 7:18 AM, starsuncloud@... at starsuncloud@... wrote:
the country to define things that don't have a word for them.
If you had only (locally) heard unschooling used for the learning kids do
when they aren't doing lessons, or used for what we'd call eclectic, then
why, when you encounter some other group using unschooling differently,
should you assume the group is right and the people around you who've helped
you a lot are wrong? Who *is* this other group who thinks they own the word
unschooling? So what if some particular dead guy made it up? Words change.
Unlike the La Leche League, there aren't guide books to define terms for all
the hundreds (?) (thousands (?)) of support groups out there. For people not
on line, it undoubtedly feels like they're starting from scratch.
Maybe we could come up with terms for those things that unschooling gets
used for so we can hand them out so they don't have to keep using
unschooling ;-)
Joyce
> I think they feel that people are trying to "own" unschooling, rather thanI think unschooling gets used in various ways in isolated pockets throughout
> point them towards a better way of doing it.
the country to define things that don't have a word for them.
If you had only (locally) heard unschooling used for the learning kids do
when they aren't doing lessons, or used for what we'd call eclectic, then
why, when you encounter some other group using unschooling differently,
should you assume the group is right and the people around you who've helped
you a lot are wrong? Who *is* this other group who thinks they own the word
unschooling? So what if some particular dead guy made it up? Words change.
Unlike the La Leche League, there aren't guide books to define terms for all
the hundreds (?) (thousands (?)) of support groups out there. For people not
on line, it undoubtedly feels like they're starting from scratch.
Maybe we could come up with terms for those things that unschooling gets
used for so we can hand them out so they don't have to keep using
unschooling ;-)
Joyce