well educated vs. love of learning
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/27/02 8:30:35 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<<
I feel much better now. If you are going to blast my new
understanding, please let me down gently. >>
Pat,
I've so enjoyed your open, honest questions that have led to much discussion.
You've hung in there while people asked these very blunt questions, and
really searched yourself it seems.
I love hearing how it has changed your views and brought more joy to your
life.
Isn't it wonderful?
I can relate only too well, this journey to radical unschooling can be a bit
bumpy at first, but once you get those "Aha" moments, everything just falls
into place!!!
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<<
I feel much better now. If you are going to blast my new
understanding, please let me down gently. >>
Pat,
I've so enjoyed your open, honest questions that have led to much discussion.
You've hung in there while people asked these very blunt questions, and
really searched yourself it seems.
I love hearing how it has changed your views and brought more joy to your
life.
Isn't it wonderful?
I can relate only too well, this journey to radical unschooling can be a bit
bumpy at first, but once you get those "Aha" moments, everything just falls
into place!!!
Ren
homeschoolmd
--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., starsuncloud@c... wrote:
I've done since overcoming an eating disorder 20 years ago. I was
beginning to wonder if it was worth all I was putting myself
through. But of course you know it is and I may even cherish this
new lifestyle more because it has been so hard to come by.
I'm ready to change my email logon name but it won't be anything
creative. I'm even ready to send in some pictures!
I've been doing some reading over at unschooling.dotcom. I'm amazed
at what you all will subject yourselves to in order to help people
like me understand "real" unschooling. The people that are arguing
that some are too hard on newbies would do well to listen to what is
being said for their *own* benefit and stop worrying about who may
leave the list because they don't want to make any changes to their
lives.
In any event, my family and I would not be embarking on the great
adventure we are today if you had told me what I was doing was fine.
Thanks.
Pat
> I can relate only too well, this journey to radical unschooling canbe a bit
> bumpy at first, but once you get those "Aha" moments, everythingjust falls
> into place!!!A BIT BUMPY? This journey to unschooling has been the hardest thing
I've done since overcoming an eating disorder 20 years ago. I was
beginning to wonder if it was worth all I was putting myself
through. But of course you know it is and I may even cherish this
new lifestyle more because it has been so hard to come by.
I'm ready to change my email logon name but it won't be anything
creative. I'm even ready to send in some pictures!
I've been doing some reading over at unschooling.dotcom. I'm amazed
at what you all will subject yourselves to in order to help people
like me understand "real" unschooling. The people that are arguing
that some are too hard on newbies would do well to listen to what is
being said for their *own* benefit and stop worrying about who may
leave the list because they don't want to make any changes to their
lives.
In any event, my family and I would not be embarking on the great
adventure we are today if you had told me what I was doing was fine.
Thanks.
Pat
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/28/02 6:04:07 AM, homeschoolmd@... writes:
<< The people that are arguing
that some are too hard on newbies would do well to listen to what is
being said for their *own* benefit and stop worrying about who may
leave the list because they don't want to make any changes to their
lives. >>
Pretty astute for a newbie!! <g>
I know you're not such a newbie.
But it's true that the people who are complaining about posts are often the
very ones who could use reading that post twice and actually thinking about
it.
Sandra
<< The people that are arguing
that some are too hard on newbies would do well to listen to what is
being said for their *own* benefit and stop worrying about who may
leave the list because they don't want to make any changes to their
lives. >>
Pretty astute for a newbie!! <g>
I know you're not such a newbie.
But it's true that the people who are complaining about posts are often the
very ones who could use reading that post twice and actually thinking about
it.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/29/02 2:43:41 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<<
I've been doing some reading over at unschooling.dotcom. I'm amazed
at what you all will subject yourselves to in order to help people
like me understand "real" unschooling. The people that are arguing
that some are too hard on newbies would do well to listen to what is
being said for their *own* benefit and stop worrying about who may
leave the list because they don't want to make any changes to their
lives.
In any event, my family and I would not be embarking on the great
adventure we are today if you had told me what I was doing was fine. >>
Can I quote you on this?!!!
We are going round and round about the concept of strewing over there....for
no good reason it seems.
I'd love to import this quote of yours, beautiful.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<<
I've been doing some reading over at unschooling.dotcom. I'm amazed
at what you all will subject yourselves to in order to help people
like me understand "real" unschooling. The people that are arguing
that some are too hard on newbies would do well to listen to what is
being said for their *own* benefit and stop worrying about who may
leave the list because they don't want to make any changes to their
lives.
In any event, my family and I would not be embarking on the great
adventure we are today if you had told me what I was doing was fine. >>
Can I quote you on this?!!!
We are going round and round about the concept of strewing over there....for
no good reason it seems.
I'd love to import this quote of yours, beautiful.
Ren
homeschoolmd
--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., starsuncloud@c... wrote:
mention that it came from me.
A few of the people from unschooling-dotcom helped me during the
beginning of my unschooling attempts. This was back around the
beginning of the year. There was a lot of squabbling going on at
that time as well and a few people decided to start their own list to
be kinder and more welcoming to newbies. They invited me to join
them but after reading some of the *meanist* posts I have ever read,
written by the same people that were starting a new list that was
supposed to be kind, I decided to come over here to Sandra's list.
There seems to be some kind of power struggle going on. If it is not
a power struggle, then the only other explanation is they don't
really get the nuances of unschooling and are arguing out of
ignorance.
At first glance, it appears that *both* sides are just being stubborn
and would do well to end the discussion when it is apparent thing are
not going anywhere, but after evaluating the situation, I can see
that the points that are being argued are often the finer points and
are important to the bigger picture.
In any case, it is really ashame, because people who really want to
learn get distracted by the squabbling and leave.
Pat
> Can I quote you on this?!!!Ren, I don't mind if you quote this but I would prefer if you do not
mention that it came from me.
A few of the people from unschooling-dotcom helped me during the
beginning of my unschooling attempts. This was back around the
beginning of the year. There was a lot of squabbling going on at
that time as well and a few people decided to start their own list to
be kinder and more welcoming to newbies. They invited me to join
them but after reading some of the *meanist* posts I have ever read,
written by the same people that were starting a new list that was
supposed to be kind, I decided to come over here to Sandra's list.
There seems to be some kind of power struggle going on. If it is not
a power struggle, then the only other explanation is they don't
really get the nuances of unschooling and are arguing out of
ignorance.
At first glance, it appears that *both* sides are just being stubborn
and would do well to end the discussion when it is apparent thing are
not going anywhere, but after evaluating the situation, I can see
that the points that are being argued are often the finer points and
are important to the bigger picture.
In any case, it is really ashame, because people who really want to
learn get distracted by the squabbling and leave.
Pat
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/29/02 11:47:30 AM, homeschoolmd@... writes:
<< There seems to be some kind of power struggle going on. If it is not
a power struggle, then the only other explanation is they don't
really get the nuances of unschooling and are arguing out of
ignorance. >>
Both, and more. (Those aren't the only two explanations.)
They're not the first and they won't be the last.
There's a mysterious draw to "unschooling" that makes people do crazy things
to try to be accepted as unschoolers. All they have to do is try to
understand it and just DO it, but over the ten years (eleven?) I've been
involved I've seen a dozen people who want absolutely NOT to unschool but
they want that label badly enough to risk their own reputations, the peace of
the lists, and the irritation of other seekers to flail and flail while they
cry "I AM an unschooler, I AM!"
Unless it's just that unschooling is seen as the coolest, I don't know why
they would do that.
Any good theories here?
Sandra
<< There seems to be some kind of power struggle going on. If it is not
a power struggle, then the only other explanation is they don't
really get the nuances of unschooling and are arguing out of
ignorance. >>
Both, and more. (Those aren't the only two explanations.)
They're not the first and they won't be the last.
There's a mysterious draw to "unschooling" that makes people do crazy things
to try to be accepted as unschoolers. All they have to do is try to
understand it and just DO it, but over the ten years (eleven?) I've been
involved I've seen a dozen people who want absolutely NOT to unschool but
they want that label badly enough to risk their own reputations, the peace of
the lists, and the irritation of other seekers to flail and flail while they
cry "I AM an unschooler, I AM!"
Unless it's just that unschooling is seen as the coolest, I don't know why
they would do that.
Any good theories here?
Sandra
Pam Hartley
----------
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: a bit bumpy?
Date: Wed, May 29, 2002, 11:28 AM
All they have to do is try to
understand it and just DO it, but over the ten years (eleven?) I've been
involved I've seen a dozen people who want absolutely NOT to unschool but
they want that label badly enough to risk their own reputations, the peace
of
the lists, and the irritation of other seekers to flail and flail while they
cry "I AM an unschooler, I AM!"
Unless it's just that unschooling is seen as the coolest, I don't know why
they would do that.
Any good theories here?
------------
I do think it's often because it's seen as the coolest -- i.e, "the most
exclusive" club, the clique that sets the trends. Also, we have most of the
good and passionate writers. <g>
There are people who say-they-unschool (or more often, say they WANT to
unschool) but don't because of fear -- that the kids will turn out to be
apes or worse.
There is a whole different and much-less-wholesome group who say they
unschool (and mostly INSIST that they unschool) but don't and I really think
it's because of meanness -- they aren't afraid the kids won't learn, they're
afraid the kids will have too much fun and too nice a life (I know that
sounds really, really horrible, but the way some of this category talks
about their kids and their imagined "learning disabilities" and "won't stop
watching TV" and "never does anything academic" what other conclusion can be
drawn? Unless they are so desperate to be "interesting" that their kids HAVE
to have these problems?)
It's the second group that makes me grind my teeth.
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: a bit bumpy?
Date: Wed, May 29, 2002, 11:28 AM
All they have to do is try to
understand it and just DO it, but over the ten years (eleven?) I've been
involved I've seen a dozen people who want absolutely NOT to unschool but
they want that label badly enough to risk their own reputations, the peace
of
the lists, and the irritation of other seekers to flail and flail while they
cry "I AM an unschooler, I AM!"
Unless it's just that unschooling is seen as the coolest, I don't know why
they would do that.
Any good theories here?
------------
I do think it's often because it's seen as the coolest -- i.e, "the most
exclusive" club, the clique that sets the trends. Also, we have most of the
good and passionate writers. <g>
There are people who say-they-unschool (or more often, say they WANT to
unschool) but don't because of fear -- that the kids will turn out to be
apes or worse.
There is a whole different and much-less-wholesome group who say they
unschool (and mostly INSIST that they unschool) but don't and I really think
it's because of meanness -- they aren't afraid the kids won't learn, they're
afraid the kids will have too much fun and too nice a life (I know that
sounds really, really horrible, but the way some of this category talks
about their kids and their imagined "learning disabilities" and "won't stop
watching TV" and "never does anything academic" what other conclusion can be
drawn? Unless they are so desperate to be "interesting" that their kids HAVE
to have these problems?)
It's the second group that makes me grind my teeth.
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
> Any good theories here?They're neurotic?
Afraid to be wrong?
They've made bold statements and don't want to have to go back and say, I
need to rethink this?
Some people just want to be right no matter what.
I've noticed the ones who can't defend their position any more, and still
won't give it up, are the one's who then cry they've been attacked
.
Be what ever you want to be, but face it bravely, and don't call it what
it isn't.
That list gives me a headache and I'm not even on it any more.<g>
Deb L, who snorted coke this morning (diet) over the humorrhoids...
Sharon Rudd
this category talks
Sharon of the Swamp
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
> about their kids and their imagined "learningGood grief...still? How redundant. Humorroidless.
> disabilities" and "won't stop
> watching TV" and "never does anything academic"
Sharon of the Swamp
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
zenmomma *
>>Any good theories here?>>I think it's an outgrowth of their real life (as oppossed to virtual) where
true, radical unschoolers are scarce. So, compared to everyone around them,
they are used to being the most relaxed, the easiest going, the most
liberal, the closest to unschooling as they understand it. The coolest,
maybe? That is, compared to school at homers and rigid curriculum types.
Maybe even compared to unit study advocates, Charlotte Mason followers or
eclectics.
I think it's very hard to then come online, thinking you've got it all
nailed down, to find out you're still way more rigid than the radical
unschoolers you're chatting with. I think it becomes very unsettling. They
were used to the liberal, easy going, unschooler label IRL. Some of the
online debates threaten to take them even further to the radical side. A
place they might not be prepared to go to. At the same time, they're not
willing to give up their IRL unschooler status.
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
zenmomma *
>>(I know that sounds really, really horrible, but the way some of thisThat the parents have been horribly messed up by a system and culture that
>>category talks about their kids and their imagined "learning disabilities"
>>and "won't stop watching TV" and "never does anything academic" what other
>>conclusion can be drawn? >>
gives us these messages daily? That to rethink these conditioned ideas would
also require examining what was said and done to them as children? That they
thought they were doing the best they could for their kids and the thought
that they aren't is really painful to admit? That sometimes it's easier to
flail and fight and argue a wrong position than to admit they've got ot
rethink their entire parenting/learning philosophies?
Just some alternatives to ponder.
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
Elizabeth Hill
>Sometimes people are just drawn to worrying as a way of being. And unworried
>
> That the parents have been horribly messed up by a system and culture that
> gives us these messages daily? That to rethink these conditioned ideas would
> also require examining what was said and done to them as children? That they
> thought they were doing the best they could for their kids and the thought
> that they aren't is really painful to admit? That sometimes it's easier to
> flail and fight and argue a wrong position than to admit they've got ot
> rethink their entire parenting/learning philosophies?
people freak them out big time. Worrying *seems* so diligent. Relaxing seems
so dilatory.
Betsy
Nancy Wooton
Since we mentioned it awhile ago... Is anyone but us watching the National
Spelling Bee, this morning on ESPN?
Nancy
--
The most effective kind of education is that a child should play amongst
lovely things.
--Plato, philosopher (427-347 BCE)
Spelling Bee, this morning on ESPN?
Nancy
--
The most effective kind of education is that a child should play amongst
lovely things.
--Plato, philosopher (427-347 BCE)
[email protected]
>>(I know that sounds really, really horrible, but the way some of thisJust wanted to report that there are many ears here and not all of them
>>category talks about their kids and their imagined "learning disabilities"
>>and "won't stop watching TV" and "never does anything academic" what other
>>conclusion can be drawn? >>
agree with the above.
(not mine) (of course, ears don't actually agree but you know what I mean.)
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
Jocelyn Vilter
I just tuned in and I feel so sorry for this little girl who can't even seem
to get the pronunciation of this particular word. She seems not too
flustered, but I am just in agony for her. Then the guy seemed to give her
a pretty huge hint when he got out of his seat to come closer to her, so
that she could really hear him. As he was walking back to his seat, he said
"just like pop goes the weasel".
jocelyn
too stressful for me
to get the pronunciation of this particular word. She seems not too
flustered, but I am just in agony for her. Then the guy seemed to give her
a pretty huge hint when he got out of his seat to come closer to her, so
that she could really hear him. As he was walking back to his seat, he said
"just like pop goes the weasel".
jocelyn
too stressful for me
> Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Spelling Bee
>
> Since we mentioned it awhile ago... Is anyone but us watching the National
> Spelling Bee, this morning on ESPN?
>
> Nancy
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/30/2002 2:55:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,
JVilter@... writes:
Amy Kagey
Usborne Books consultant
<A HREF="http://www.ubah.com/ecommerce/default.asp?sid=Z0939&gid=462366">Usborne Books Online Sales</A>
WW: -41.4 lbs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
JVilter@... writes:
>I felt so bad when she missed it! She's a homeschooler, too.
>
> I just tuned in and I feel so sorry for this little girl who can't even
> seem
> to get the pronunciation of this particular word.
Amy Kagey
Usborne Books consultant
<A HREF="http://www.ubah.com/ecommerce/default.asp?sid=Z0939&gid=462366">Usborne Books Online Sales</A>
WW: -41.4 lbs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Janet
>>I think it's very hard to then come online, thinking you've got it allnailed down, to find out you're still way more rigid than the radical
unschoolers you're chatting with. I think it becomes very unsettling. They
were used to the liberal, easy going, unschooler label IRL. Some of the
online debates threaten to take them even further to the radical side. A
place they might not be prepared to go to. At the same time, they're not
willing to give up their IRL unschooler status.<<
I think that's where my SIL is. Thanks. SIL has been homeschooling for
over 12 years (oldest is 19; youngest 11), and all along I have told her we
were unschoolers. She always replies that "we're very relaxed" but when I
listen to her descriptions she is very entrenched in "grade levels,"
"practice drills (for math)," etc. So, recently I sent her more detailed
info on unschooling, and her reply made it obvious she doesn't get it. I'm
not sure she ever will (very big into control).
Janet
[email protected]
I posted this at www.unschooling.com today too, but I thought it was pretty
cool and some of you don't go to the message boards. It was just in the
paper today.
Guest Opinion: Let's work to stop snuffing out joys of learning
ANDREW HANSON
Tucson Citizen
May 30, 2002
"A child said, 'What is the grass?'
fetching it to me with full hands;
How could I answer the child?
I do not know what it is any more than he."
- Walt Whitman
I recently checked out from the school library a PBS video on the emergence
of democracy in Athens in the sixth century B.C.
It was rich and beautifully done. But as I savored the beauty of the Greek
art, the wonder of those times, I couldn't help but reflect on how the
average high school student would react to this video.
As you can imagine, the kids would be somewhat attentive. After all, it's
on TV, a central icon in their world. But few would engage the material in
any meaningful way.
If encouraged by the promise of a quiz, or if given a worksheet of
questions, a large number would dutifully watch for the required elements.
Many would complain, openly or in private, depending on the temper of the
class, that the video was boring or irrelevant. And that would be an honest
assessment.
For them it is boring.
Herein lies the central paradox of modern education. Never before have so
many images, so much information, such diverse perspectives, been
accessible for study. Yet for millions of young people, this wealth may as
well not exist.
They have no passion for learning through study. They do not feel the
curiosity, the fascination and wonder that fuel the genuine search for
understanding. Their motivation to learn has been severely damaged.
Look at the young people around you. Talk with them. Do they care about
history, science or literature? What percentage of our youth can talk
intelligently about anything academic? How many read for pleasure?
The answers do not paint a portrait of a youth with a thirst for knowledge.
But if we assume that this child entered the school system many years ago
with what Plutarch called "that love of inquiry and observation which
nature has implanted in our souls," we must ask, what has happened?How did
that bubbly, enthusiastic 5-year-old turn into a teen-ager who would rather
do anything but study?
The deepest, most critical fault in our formal schooling has been the
systematic creation of the passive learner. By controlling virtually all of
the important decisions in the student's life - what, when, why and how to
learn - the well-intentioned adults working in education have unwittingly
designed a disaster.It's easy to see why educators would want to control
these decisions. One might argue that the professionals know best, that
such matters are too important to leave to the judgment of children, and so
on. But the fatal flaw is that the essential questions of what and how to
learn are intrinsic to the learning process.
Forcing children to learn works no better than leading the proverbial horse
to water, as our current difficulties so amply illustrate. In contrast,
passionate learners pose their own questions, set their own goals and
quench their own thirst. By denying children the opportunity to follow
their hearts, replacing that model with one in which everything is decided
for them, we create passive, if not resisting, students whose only
authentic problem becomes how best to please the teacher and get the
highest grade for the least amount of effort.
Large amounts of research and commentary are directed at the formidable
challenge of better controlling the children and the curriculum. But no
matter how much we sugarcoat the work - or bully, cajole and manage the
kids, or the teachers, for that matter - into "covering" the curriculum and
being "on task," we are not treating the root cause of the disease.
We only address the symptoms.
The drive to improve control over the children misses the whole point. We
don't need better control. We need less control. We're talking more power
and freedom for the children to take charge of their very destinies and
souls. The scariest thing is to let go and trust the students, but that is
exactly what we must do from the earliest years of schooling.
The social and economic costs of persisting in the educational status quo
are immense. Alienation, aimlessness, acting out, dropping out, these
problems and many more are intimately connected to the systematic snuffing
out of the joy of learning.
Active learners don't need to be kept busy. They are impatiently searching,
experimenting, testing and questioning. They are healthy humans engaged in
the most marvelous of pursuits.
The passive learners are not responsible for this sadly dysfunctional
situation. They are the victims. To rob a child of his natural urge to
study through the imposition of mindless busywork is simply criminal.
As citizens, parents and educators, we need to carefully examine and own
our roles in this tragedy. Change is possible, but we must develop a
collective will to revolutionize schooling.
Can we afford not to?
Andrew Hanson is a public school teacher in Tucson. He recently spent a
year in Chile as a Fulbright Exchange Teacher.
cool and some of you don't go to the message boards. It was just in the
paper today.
Guest Opinion: Let's work to stop snuffing out joys of learning
ANDREW HANSON
Tucson Citizen
May 30, 2002
"A child said, 'What is the grass?'
fetching it to me with full hands;
How could I answer the child?
I do not know what it is any more than he."
- Walt Whitman
I recently checked out from the school library a PBS video on the emergence
of democracy in Athens in the sixth century B.C.
It was rich and beautifully done. But as I savored the beauty of the Greek
art, the wonder of those times, I couldn't help but reflect on how the
average high school student would react to this video.
As you can imagine, the kids would be somewhat attentive. After all, it's
on TV, a central icon in their world. But few would engage the material in
any meaningful way.
If encouraged by the promise of a quiz, or if given a worksheet of
questions, a large number would dutifully watch for the required elements.
Many would complain, openly or in private, depending on the temper of the
class, that the video was boring or irrelevant. And that would be an honest
assessment.
For them it is boring.
Herein lies the central paradox of modern education. Never before have so
many images, so much information, such diverse perspectives, been
accessible for study. Yet for millions of young people, this wealth may as
well not exist.
They have no passion for learning through study. They do not feel the
curiosity, the fascination and wonder that fuel the genuine search for
understanding. Their motivation to learn has been severely damaged.
Look at the young people around you. Talk with them. Do they care about
history, science or literature? What percentage of our youth can talk
intelligently about anything academic? How many read for pleasure?
The answers do not paint a portrait of a youth with a thirst for knowledge.
But if we assume that this child entered the school system many years ago
with what Plutarch called "that love of inquiry and observation which
nature has implanted in our souls," we must ask, what has happened?How did
that bubbly, enthusiastic 5-year-old turn into a teen-ager who would rather
do anything but study?
The deepest, most critical fault in our formal schooling has been the
systematic creation of the passive learner. By controlling virtually all of
the important decisions in the student's life - what, when, why and how to
learn - the well-intentioned adults working in education have unwittingly
designed a disaster.It's easy to see why educators would want to control
these decisions. One might argue that the professionals know best, that
such matters are too important to leave to the judgment of children, and so
on. But the fatal flaw is that the essential questions of what and how to
learn are intrinsic to the learning process.
Forcing children to learn works no better than leading the proverbial horse
to water, as our current difficulties so amply illustrate. In contrast,
passionate learners pose their own questions, set their own goals and
quench their own thirst. By denying children the opportunity to follow
their hearts, replacing that model with one in which everything is decided
for them, we create passive, if not resisting, students whose only
authentic problem becomes how best to please the teacher and get the
highest grade for the least amount of effort.
Large amounts of research and commentary are directed at the formidable
challenge of better controlling the children and the curriculum. But no
matter how much we sugarcoat the work - or bully, cajole and manage the
kids, or the teachers, for that matter - into "covering" the curriculum and
being "on task," we are not treating the root cause of the disease.
We only address the symptoms.
The drive to improve control over the children misses the whole point. We
don't need better control. We need less control. We're talking more power
and freedom for the children to take charge of their very destinies and
souls. The scariest thing is to let go and trust the students, but that is
exactly what we must do from the earliest years of schooling.
The social and economic costs of persisting in the educational status quo
are immense. Alienation, aimlessness, acting out, dropping out, these
problems and many more are intimately connected to the systematic snuffing
out of the joy of learning.
Active learners don't need to be kept busy. They are impatiently searching,
experimenting, testing and questioning. They are healthy humans engaged in
the most marvelous of pursuits.
The passive learners are not responsible for this sadly dysfunctional
situation. They are the victims. To rob a child of his natural urge to
study through the imposition of mindless busywork is simply criminal.
As citizens, parents and educators, we need to carefully examine and own
our roles in this tragedy. Change is possible, but we must develop a
collective will to revolutionize schooling.
Can we afford not to?
Andrew Hanson is a public school teacher in Tucson. He recently spent a
year in Chile as a Fulbright Exchange Teacher.
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/30/02 10:41:14 AM, zenmomma@... writes:
<< They
were used to the liberal, easy going, unschooler label IRL. Some of the
online debates threaten to take them even further to the radical side. A
place they might not be prepared to go to. At the same time, they're not
willing to give up their IRL unschooler status. >>
Mary's theory makes a ton of sense.
There's been an argument made lately "on another network" (as the talkshow
hosts say) that unschooling should only apply to that part of life set aside
for learning.
It's a stunning statement, to me, because anyone who sets part of their life
aside for learning is not unschooling optimally, and from my personal
perspective, not really unschooling at all.
If unschooling is scheduled, then that seems to imply that non-unschooling
hours are... fun? relaxation? Non-learning time? It doesn't work that
way in any family in which I've seen it work.
"Friday we're going to do some freeform learning."
"We're going to take the summer off and then unschool again in the fall."
Doesn't work.
Sandra
<< They
were used to the liberal, easy going, unschooler label IRL. Some of the
online debates threaten to take them even further to the radical side. A
place they might not be prepared to go to. At the same time, they're not
willing to give up their IRL unschooler status. >>
Mary's theory makes a ton of sense.
There's been an argument made lately "on another network" (as the talkshow
hosts say) that unschooling should only apply to that part of life set aside
for learning.
It's a stunning statement, to me, because anyone who sets part of their life
aside for learning is not unschooling optimally, and from my personal
perspective, not really unschooling at all.
If unschooling is scheduled, then that seems to imply that non-unschooling
hours are... fun? relaxation? Non-learning time? It doesn't work that
way in any family in which I've seen it work.
"Friday we're going to do some freeform learning."
"We're going to take the summer off and then unschool again in the fall."
Doesn't work.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/30/02 12:20:07 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:
<< Sometimes people are just drawn to worrying as a way of being. And
unworried
people freak them out big time. Worrying *seems* so diligent. Relaxing seems
so dilatory. >>
So it's the last vestige of the puritan work ethic among unschoolers maybe?
<g>
If you're not going to teach and force and test math, at least you can keep
up a steady stream of active CONCERN about math.
It is true that people have said a dozen or a hundred times to me (I quit
counting and paying attention when the question started to sound like "What
about socialization?" to me) "SO, you don't care if they learn math?
"So you don't care whether they can get into college?"
So..... you don't care whether they learn to read?"
It's a little like "So you don't use books?"
First off it shows a lack of awareness of the concept.
But more than that, it's a full-on insult. It's like "Well unschooling is
fine for *you* people, but in *my* family we would like for our children to
be able to support themselves and not be on welfare."
It's not that I don't care whether they learn to read, it's that I know that
my worrying doesn't create reading experience, it only creates worry. And I
haven't worried since Kirby started reading, because after I saw that I knew
without the slightest doubt that the others WOULD read. Not might, not "I'll
give it a while before I give up," but knew for sure it would come.
So what's a good answer for "So you don't care if your child learns to read?"
Many who ask that aren't delving, they're just on a fault-finding mission so
they can reject unschooling without much trouble. Or they want justification
for their worry and micro-management of kids' lives. Or they're making
conversation in the "Hi/what's your name/what grade are you in/do you like
your teacher" formulaic way.
If I say "Yes, I care..." then they'll want me to prove it by showing how I'm
helping them or testing them or whatever.
If I say "No, I don't care..." then it will be AHA!!! I KNEW YOU WERE
NEGLECTFUL AND IGNORANT!
I get requests sometimes (one today, in fact, in writing) from people wanting
me to help them choose a curriculum and let them know where to buy one. I
just give them links to www.unschooling.com and sandradodd.com/unschooling
and tell them there are links from there to all kinds of information.
If they follow enough of those links they'll come to something that has links
to the information they want. But I cannot and will not help someone set up
a structured homeschooling situation. There are salesmen to do that. I want
no more guilt on me for the tears of frustrated children. I have more than
a lifetime's guilt from the years I taught in public school.
Sandra
<< Sometimes people are just drawn to worrying as a way of being. And
unworried
people freak them out big time. Worrying *seems* so diligent. Relaxing seems
so dilatory. >>
So it's the last vestige of the puritan work ethic among unschoolers maybe?
<g>
If you're not going to teach and force and test math, at least you can keep
up a steady stream of active CONCERN about math.
It is true that people have said a dozen or a hundred times to me (I quit
counting and paying attention when the question started to sound like "What
about socialization?" to me) "SO, you don't care if they learn math?
"So you don't care whether they can get into college?"
So..... you don't care whether they learn to read?"
It's a little like "So you don't use books?"
First off it shows a lack of awareness of the concept.
But more than that, it's a full-on insult. It's like "Well unschooling is
fine for *you* people, but in *my* family we would like for our children to
be able to support themselves and not be on welfare."
It's not that I don't care whether they learn to read, it's that I know that
my worrying doesn't create reading experience, it only creates worry. And I
haven't worried since Kirby started reading, because after I saw that I knew
without the slightest doubt that the others WOULD read. Not might, not "I'll
give it a while before I give up," but knew for sure it would come.
So what's a good answer for "So you don't care if your child learns to read?"
Many who ask that aren't delving, they're just on a fault-finding mission so
they can reject unschooling without much trouble. Or they want justification
for their worry and micro-management of kids' lives. Or they're making
conversation in the "Hi/what's your name/what grade are you in/do you like
your teacher" formulaic way.
If I say "Yes, I care..." then they'll want me to prove it by showing how I'm
helping them or testing them or whatever.
If I say "No, I don't care..." then it will be AHA!!! I KNEW YOU WERE
NEGLECTFUL AND IGNORANT!
I get requests sometimes (one today, in fact, in writing) from people wanting
me to help them choose a curriculum and let them know where to buy one. I
just give them links to www.unschooling.com and sandradodd.com/unschooling
and tell them there are links from there to all kinds of information.
If they follow enough of those links they'll come to something that has links
to the information they want. But I cannot and will not help someone set up
a structured homeschooling situation. There are salesmen to do that. I want
no more guilt on me for the tears of frustrated children. I have more than
a lifetime's guilt from the years I taught in public school.
Sandra
[email protected]
What was the word that she couldn't get?
--Roxana
http://www.geocities.com/jelliclequeen/index.html
Disclaimer:
Whilst every attempt has been made to ensure that the material contained in
this email is sane, please note that the author is quite, quite mad.
Sarcastic responses, bad jokes or attempts to call the men in the white coats
are strictly prohibited. If you receive this email in error - please eat it
immediately to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands.
--Roxana
http://www.geocities.com/jelliclequeen/index.html
Disclaimer:
Whilst every attempt has been made to ensure that the material contained in
this email is sane, please note that the author is quite, quite mad.
Sarcastic responses, bad jokes or attempts to call the men in the white coats
are strictly prohibited. If you receive this email in error - please eat it
immediately to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands.
Elizabeth Hill
SandraDodd@... wrote:
**It is true that people have said a dozen or a hundred times to me (I
quit counting and paying attention when the question started to sound
like "What about socialization?" to me) "SO, you don't care if they
learn math?"So you don't care whether they can get into college?"
So..... you don't care whether they learn to read?"**
The subtext seems to be that worry is the handle by which they can grab
you and control you. And it probably works on a lot of people. The
types of statements that you've had aimed at you are clearly intended to
be manipulative.
**If you're not going to teach and force and test math, at least you can
keep up a steady stream of active CONCERN about math.**
I think you hit the bullseye there.
As an unschooler who is sometimes unsteady in my faith, I sublimate my
concern about math by buying all the cool math resources I can find.
Most of the books (Miquon, H. Jacobs, Family Math) are just collecting
dust. The good news about my worry habit is that I have enough math
books now that I don't need to buy anymore when worry strikes. I just
go pat the ones I have until I feel better. <g> (I've got 27 -- good
grief! Worry is a powerful force. Wonder if they would work their
anti-worry mojo on me just as well if I buried them in the front yard?)
**It's a little like "So you don't use books?"
First off it shows a lack of awareness of the concept.
But more than that, it's a full-on insult.**
I'm gonna whisper a couple of insults right back at them. This sounds
like the conclusion that would be reached by a person that has never
voluntarily held a book, except when forced to in school. How else
could they believe that textbooks issued by the school district are the
only books that exist or are the only books with meaningful content?
I'm going to stop here, for a minute. But I'm still thinking about all
of the ideas in your post.
Betsy
**It's not that I don't care whether they learn to read, it's that I
know that my worrying doesn't create reading experience, it only creates
worry. And I
haven't worried since Kirby started reading, because after I saw that I
knew without the slightest doubt that the others WOULD read. Not might,
not "I'll
give it a while before I give up," but knew for sure it would come.
So what's a good answer for "So you don't care if your child learns to
read?" Many who ask that aren't delving, they're just on a fault-finding
mission so
they can reject unschooling without much trouble. Or they want
justification for their worry and micro-management of kids' lives. Or
they're making
conversation in the "Hi/what's your name/what grade are you in/do you
like
your teacher" formulaic way.
If I say "Yes, I care..." then they'll want me to prove it by showing
how I'm
helping them or testing them or whatever.
If I say "No, I don't care..." then it will be AHA!!! I KNEW YOU WERE
NEGLECTFUL AND IGNORANT!
I get requests sometimes (one today, in fact, in writing) from people
wanting
me to help them choose a curriculum and let them know where to buy one.
I
just give them links to www.unschooling.com and
sandradodd.com/unschooling
and tell them there are links from there to all kinds of information.
If they follow enough of those links they'll come to something that has
links
to the information they want. But I cannot and will not help someone
set up
a structured homeschooling situation. There are salesmen to do that. I
want
no more guilt on me for the tears of frustrated children. I have more
than
a lifetime's guilt from the years I taught in public school.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
**It is true that people have said a dozen or a hundred times to me (I
quit counting and paying attention when the question started to sound
like "What about socialization?" to me) "SO, you don't care if they
learn math?"So you don't care whether they can get into college?"
So..... you don't care whether they learn to read?"**
The subtext seems to be that worry is the handle by which they can grab
you and control you. And it probably works on a lot of people. The
types of statements that you've had aimed at you are clearly intended to
be manipulative.
**If you're not going to teach and force and test math, at least you can
keep up a steady stream of active CONCERN about math.**
I think you hit the bullseye there.
As an unschooler who is sometimes unsteady in my faith, I sublimate my
concern about math by buying all the cool math resources I can find.
Most of the books (Miquon, H. Jacobs, Family Math) are just collecting
dust. The good news about my worry habit is that I have enough math
books now that I don't need to buy anymore when worry strikes. I just
go pat the ones I have until I feel better. <g> (I've got 27 -- good
grief! Worry is a powerful force. Wonder if they would work their
anti-worry mojo on me just as well if I buried them in the front yard?)
**It's a little like "So you don't use books?"
First off it shows a lack of awareness of the concept.
But more than that, it's a full-on insult.**
I'm gonna whisper a couple of insults right back at them. This sounds
like the conclusion that would be reached by a person that has never
voluntarily held a book, except when forced to in school. How else
could they believe that textbooks issued by the school district are the
only books that exist or are the only books with meaningful content?
I'm going to stop here, for a minute. But I'm still thinking about all
of the ideas in your post.
Betsy
**It's not that I don't care whether they learn to read, it's that I
know that my worrying doesn't create reading experience, it only creates
worry. And I
haven't worried since Kirby started reading, because after I saw that I
knew without the slightest doubt that the others WOULD read. Not might,
not "I'll
give it a while before I give up," but knew for sure it would come.
So what's a good answer for "So you don't care if your child learns to
read?" Many who ask that aren't delving, they're just on a fault-finding
mission so
they can reject unschooling without much trouble. Or they want
justification for their worry and micro-management of kids' lives. Or
they're making
conversation in the "Hi/what's your name/what grade are you in/do you
like
your teacher" formulaic way.
If I say "Yes, I care..." then they'll want me to prove it by showing
how I'm
helping them or testing them or whatever.
If I say "No, I don't care..." then it will be AHA!!! I KNEW YOU WERE
NEGLECTFUL AND IGNORANT!
I get requests sometimes (one today, in fact, in writing) from people
wanting
me to help them choose a curriculum and let them know where to buy one.
I
just give them links to www.unschooling.com and
sandradodd.com/unschooling
and tell them there are links from there to all kinds of information.
If they follow enough of those links they'll come to something that has
links
to the information they want. But I cannot and will not help someone
set up
a structured homeschooling situation. There are salesmen to do that. I
want
no more guilt on me for the tears of frustrated children. I have more
than
a lifetime's guilt from the years I taught in public school.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dana Matt
> I'm gonna whisper a couple of insults right back atBut many people do believe this...My MIL bitched at my
> them. This sounds
> like the conclusion that would be reached by a
> person that has never
> voluntarily held a book, except when forced to in
> school. How else
> could they believe that textbooks issued by the
> school district are the
> only books that exist or are the only books with
> meaningful content?
SIL for buying books for her toddler..."Why does he
need books? He'll go to school soon at 5, and they
have books for him..." UGH!
Dana
Montana Mama
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
Jocelyn Vilter
I couldn't hear it myself. I think it had one of those d-t sounds that are
so confusing to hear sometimes.
jocelyn
so confusing to hear sometimes.
jocelyn
> From: LutraPearl@...
> Reply-To: [email protected]
> Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:18:22 EDT
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Spelling Bee
>
> What was the word that she couldn't get?
>
> --Roxana
Nancy Wooton
on 5/31/02 10:02 AM, Jocelyn Vilter at JVilter@... wrote:
My kids and I sat with my trusty 350,000 word American Heritage and Chambers
Dictionaries, and discovered that, even when we could spell them, the words
weren't there at least half the time. The bee's website said they use
Webster's Third International... the $139 unabridged sucker. Here I thought
I had such good dictionaries... Something more to save for <g>
Nancy
> I couldn't hear it myself. I think it had one of those d-t sounds that areepopt
> so confusing to hear sometimes.
>
> jocelyn
My kids and I sat with my trusty 350,000 word American Heritage and Chambers
Dictionaries, and discovered that, even when we could spell them, the words
weren't there at least half the time. The bee's website said they use
Webster's Third International... the $139 unabridged sucker. Here I thought
I had such good dictionaries... Something more to save for <g>
Nancy