L R

Folks with little ones who are working on sleep- please don't let my post scare you! This is just a shift. For many years, supporting my son in sleeping by his own rhythms of wakefulness and sleepiness has worked very well for us. We've just hit a little snag with conflicting intentions my son has for himeself and I just want to find a way to support him better. :-)

My 15 year old son usually stays up until the wee hours of the morning. It's not a negative thing except that it seems to conflict with other intentions he states he has. I've tried a number of different ways to help him, and I'm stumped. I try to keep things flexible so he can sleep as he wants/needs to and I watch what's going on in games when I can if he invites me in or if I pop my head in and he wants my company, (I get woozy feeling if I watch some games too long) and I listen to him talk about whatever he's doing, bring snacks, take away dirty dishes, whatever seems helpful or is asked for. I go try to get to bed by 10/11pm because I find I've shifted into feeling better when I sleep earlier.

A couple months ago, he met a new friend who is a morning person but seemed interested in being included in the game play. So my son said he would get up in the early morning hours to play with her. This lasted a very short time and happens very intermittently now because he will sleep right through his alarm. I've offered to wake him, and have tried to do so, always gently, yet he will roll over and go back to sleep but then be upset I didn't get him awake. If I try to be more insistent about waking him, still gently, he also tends to be frustrated and grumpy, I'm guessing because he is short on rest. When he does get up, he will often fall asleep pretty much as soon as we start driving somewhere, or if we sit and watch a movie or tv show, and just generally he seems over tired.

Some of his motivation for staying up so late is around friends who are currently not allowed to get online to play games until school (homeschool) and chores are done, often not getting online until midnight. Some of it is that he tells me after his friends get off, or if they aren't even able to get on, he just gets distracted with all he wants to do and before he knows it, it's very late. In a few months we will be moving back to the eastern part of the US which will put us 2-3 hours ahead of Arizona time, that's going to be interesting. If he's staying up until 2 or 3 to even begin playing with the other kids, planning anything during the daytime will be even more complicated.

I've asked the other mums if they would consider "scheduling" time in for the boys to play. I've heard them say they would like their own children to go to bed earlier as well. I pointed out that if the motivation for staying up late (gaming/connection) was offered at an earlier time, the motivation to stay up so late might shift. I haven't received a response so far. I know both their houses have little folks in the house and I don't believe the other kids have ownership of computers they play on so that may be a stumbling block to an early morning time. But I suggested and early time- maybe even before their little ones are up and at it- depending on what time they get up, I'm not sure of their exact routines. But anyway, my son was the one who suggested the early time to me, so he's willing to make the shift. But if it means losing out on his gaming time with his friends, he doesn't want to do it. I certainly understand that.

Another thing that is related but different and affected by the sleeping issues, is that he takes Parkour classes. Parkour, for those who don't know, is the art of learning to move efficiently and safely, under, over, and around obstacles. If you've seen a Jackie Chan movie, you've seen some Parkour ideas in play. Parkour is very physically demanding. The coaches, his dad and I have all encouraged my son to have additional times during the week in between classes where he is doing exercise or activity to help increase his stamina as he makes frequent comments about how tired or out of breath, or such similar things during the class. I have invited him to walk with me in the morning (I prefer) or even in the evenings though it makes it harder for me to sleep by doing that. His dad has invited him to go to the gym with him on his non PT days (he's in the military and has required physical training 3 days a week) either in the mornings or in the evenings after he's done with work. We've offered to help him find a workout buddy if he doesn't want to exercise with us. We just invite, without comment even though he always says no. He wants to do Parkour but he doesn't seem inclined to put the extra effort into building his stamina that doing Parkour requires. Tonight was the first night back after the holiday break. 20 minutes into it, he was out of breath to the point his lungs were burning and he felt like he might fall over. He said it was more than the usual tired he gets during the class and he wanted to leave. We let the coach know my son wasn't feeling well and we were going to go. The coach was cool about it and gently reminded him to remember to do what he can to rebuild his stamina after he heals up from whatever is going on.

I'm just wondering what thoughts you have, what you might suggest if it were your own kids or if you can point out something I can try to help him meet his desire to have lots of gaming time and his desire to be able to do Parkour.

Thanks.
LisaR

Joyce Fetteroll

Can he shift his sleep time even more? It sounds like the problem is he's getting sleepy in the morning at the time the girl is up. What if he shifted his schedule so he wakes up at midnight? So he'd be going to bed at 4ish. It's what people who work the late shift do.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-When he does get up, he will often fall asleep pretty much as soon as we start driving somewhere, or if we sit and watch a movie or tv show, and just generally he seems over tired. -=-

I object to "over tired."  Tired is tired.  "Over tired" is judgmental and creates a "condition" out of the judgment of others.

-=- But anyway, my son was the one who suggested the early time to me, so he's willing to make the shift.-=-

He's willing to talk about making the shift.

-=-We've offered to help him find a workout buddy if he doesn't want to exercise with us. We just invite, without comment even though he always says no. -=-

The invitation, with him always saying no, IS commentary.  If he sees you going, he could ask to go.  He knows.  He is (in your own words) always saying no, so it seems conterproductive (emotionally) to ask now.

-=-20 minutes into it, he was out of breath to the point his lungs were burning and he felt like he might fall over. He said it was more than the usual tired he gets during the class and he wanted to leave. We let the coach know my son wasn't feeling well and we were going to go. -=-

That is what learning is about.  Cause and effect.  Don't shame him, don't coach him.  He has coaches enough.  
If you ask if he wants you to help him make a schedule, that's another invitation for him to agree to something at which he might fail (only the failure will be in writing).

Either he's going to be exactly the way his is right now for the rest of his life (in which case you can both relax) 
or he's going to get a bit older, and something within him will bring a change (in which case what you do now isn't going to help).

He's fifteen.  That's old enough to make his own schedule, get an alarm clock.

IF he asks you to wake him up, though, do it.  Not gently.  Windows, light, full voice.

One of the best ways to wake up is to smell good food.  Depending what he likes, coffee, or bacon, or muffins.

Happy music, or a happy movie might help.  Not soft like a lullaby, but loud enough to wake up about.

Sandra

<zanyzingzap@...>

I think if it were just about the video gaming, that would definitely be an option. His dad has done shift work at times so we've rearranged things in our life to accommodate that.  I am not sure how that would work with his parkour class since that is 530pm-630pm. There is some wiggle room on days for the PK class, but they all take place between 5pm and 7pm and class is an hour away from our house since it is the only place that has PK classes. I tried reaching out to others to try to get a homeschool class during the earlier hours of the day but only one other person ever let me know they were interested and their child was recovering from a joint injury so wouldn't be able to go for a while. Now that they know we are moving soon they aren't interested at all because their child was going to ride with us.

Thanks. :-)
LisaR

Sandra Dodd

-=-When he does get up, he will often fall asleep pretty much as soon as we start driving somewhere, or if we sit and watch a movie or tv show, and just generally he seems over tired. -=-

I object to "over tired."  Tired is tired.  "Over tired" is judgmental and creates a "condition" out of the judgment of others.

Sandra

<zanyzingzap@...>

 

 

 

>>>I object to "over tired."  Tired is tired.  "Over tired" is judgmental and

creates a "condition" out of the judgment of others.<<<

I'll think about this. It seems I’m observing a different level of tired than when he says he's tired but doesn't fall asleep as soon as the car starts driving or he sits to watch tv. I have different levels of feeling tired, such as the tired that sometimes happens and which I will not drive during because it would be unwise to do so. Most of the time I am not that tired though.

 

 

-=-We've offered to help him find a workout buddy if he doesn't want to exercise with us. We just invite, without comment even though he always says no. -=-

 

>>>The invitation, with him always saying no, IS

commentary.  If he sees you going, he could ask to go.  He knows.  He is (in your own words) always saying no, so it seems conterproductive (emotionally) to ask now.<<<

We’ll stop with offers to go with us then and see how that goes. He doesn't see us doing those things generally though, because I walk when I get up and my husband goes to the gym on his way home from work and as I mentioned both of us have offered to shift to a time when our son is up if he wants to join us.


It’s hard for us to know when to back off sometimes. My son talks about wanting to play video games with his dad, but he does not ask to play with my husband when he sees my husband playing. So my husband will tell my son when my husband is going to start playing and lets our son know my husband would like to play together if our son would like to. Sometimes our son says yes, sometimes no, so we were taking the same approach with the walking/gym. Neither of us asks every day about the exercise options, just once in a while if we think of it and the offer to help find him a workout buddy was made once. I get it. He knows the offer is there, let it go.

 

 

-=-20 minutes into it, he was out of breath to the point his lungs were burning and he felt like he might fall over. He said it was more than the usual tired he gets during the class and he wanted to leave. We let the coach know my son wasn't feeling well and we were going to go. -=-

 

>>>That is what learning is about.  Cause and effect.  Don't shame him, don't coach him.  He has coaches enough. 

If you ask if he wants you to help him make a schedule, that's another invitation for him to agree to something at which he might fail (only the failure will be in writing).<<<

What schedule, what failure in writing? I didn’t shame him. I told him I trust his assessment that yesterday was not a good day for him to be there. We (me and his dad) told the coach he wasn’t feeling well and we left. No shaming. No coaching on my part. The coach just said to my son he hoped he felt better and to remember to build back up after healing up.

 

 

>>>Either he's going to be exactly the way his is

right now for the rest of his life (in which case you can both relax)

or he's going to get a bit older, and something within him will bring a change (in which case what you do now isn't going to help).<<<

I’m only concerned with these issues because he’s asked me for help with them. I'm fine with who he is. I'm trying to help him navigate this stuff at his request. I'm not invested one way or the other if he does Parkour or not or if sleeps all day to game all night. I just am trying to help him because he asked me for ideas for dealing with all of this and I want to help him.

 

 

>>>He's fifteen. 

That's old enough to make his own schedule, get an alarm clock.<<<

 

He has an alarm. It is loud enough to be heard downstairs when his door is closed and I have the tv on whether he has it on the alarm noise or on the radio. He sleeps through it. I don’t make his schedule, I help him pursue his interests and events he wants to go to.

 


>>>IF he asks you to wake him up, though, do it.  Not gently. 
Windows, light, full voice.<<<


I do open the blinds on the windows. He seems to startle if I use a full voice and he has told me he doesn’t like being startled awake like that. I don’t know why he can sleep through loud music but my normal voice startles him. My guess is that it’s from pre-unschooling days when I did wake him up by lights on, blinds open and full voice and it wasn’t because he wanted to get up but because there was someplace I thought we had to be before I learned more about have-to’s.  

 

 

>>>One of the best ways to wake up is to smell good

food.  Depending what he likes, coffee, or bacon, or muffins.<<<

 

He sleeps through the smell of food as well. He and his dad have breakfast sausages on the weekend (I’ve offered to have them available more- it’s their thing they look forward to for the weekend so neither was inclined to want them more often for now). I don't like them so I don't eat them, but if I'm up first, I put them in so they are ready when the others get up. It doesn't wake our son up. His favorite food is pizza, I tried that too along with pancakes and muffins. So far those haven't worked. He's not a coffee drinker. Though our son does have a different sense of smell- he doesn't smell the smell of skunk unless it is *really* strong he says. I'll keep looking for other foods to try though.

 

>>>Happy music, or a happy movie might help.  Not soft like a lullaby, but loud enough to

wake up about.<<<

 

I'll see if we can find an alarm clock he can set to specific music  he likes with a CD (yep we still use CD’s). I think the old MP3 player we have has an alarm feature and we could set that up with some speakers. He has a cell phone but he says he doesn't like leaving it on while he's sleeping.

 

>>>Sandra<<<

Thank you.
LisaR

D. Regan

In the original post, there is some 'softening' of things for others, which don't need softening:-

Folks with little ones who are working on sleep- please don't let my post scare you!

We've just hit a little snag

My 15 year old son usually stays up until the wee hours of the morning. It's not a negative thing

I've offered to wake him, and have tried to do so, always gently,

If I try to be more insistent about waking him, still gently

We just invite, without comment

It might help to explore this tendency.  What is it for?  Where did it come from?  What is the impact on others?  Does it help communication?   I imagine that a teenaged son would like to have his strength and capacity acknowledged, in part by his parents speaking clearly and directly around him.

The coaches, his dad and I have all encouraged my son to have additional times during the week in between classes where he is doing exercise

Why encourage?  He knows about the relationship between exercising and building stamina.  At the moment he's choosing not to do extra exercise.  With less encouragement, he may choose differently.  It's usually particularly important to teens that they make their own decisions, rather than be compliant.  

I have invited him to walk with me

His dad has invited him to go to the gym with him

We've offered to help him find a workout buddy

These invitations coupled with all the encouragement, give an implication that the people around him think he should be doing things differently.  

...I like to garden.  And I like to do it without using insecticides.  I know that insecticides are an option that lots of gardeners use, and I know that they may result in bigger crops, but even so, I choose not to use them.  If several of my friends "all encouraged" me to spray insecticide to get rid of the bugs, and then my closest friend invited me to share her insecticide, another close friend invited me to go to a garden centre where I could buy insecticide, and together they offered to find someone who would spray with me, I would feel misunderstood, unsupported, disrespected.   They could say that my garden won't work if I don't spray, and that they are only wanting to help me grow a great garden and point to the fact that I've said I like to garden.  But my focus is not on a great garden.  My focus is the joy I gain from gardening the way I do. 

I like to watch the fruits and vegetables germinate and grow, the interplay of bugs and the seasons and the weather and the birds and the varieties of plants.  I like to explore and experiment and learn.  It may not look like the best way to garden, but I wouldn't enjoy gardening as much if I took on a 'maximum harvest' approach.  I like my approach.  And I'm grateful for family and friends who rejoice in my way because it works for me, regardless of the productivity of my garden.

He wants to do Parkour but he doesn't seem inclined to put the extra effort into building his stamina that doing Parkour requires.

He is choosing to do parkour classes without extra exercise sessions at the moment.  This is how he's currently approaching parkour.  I would support him in that.  Be there to help him if he wants help.  Help make his home a peaceful place where he can feel understood, respected, appreciated.  

Debbie

Sandra Dodd

-=->>>I object to "over tired."  Tired is tired.  "Over tired" is judgmental and creates a "condition" out of the judgment of others.<<<

-=-I'll think about this. It seems I’m observing a different level of tired than when he says he's tired but doesn't fall asleep as soon as the car starts driving or he sits to watch tv. I have different levels of feeling tired, such as the tired that sometimes happens and which I will not drive during because it would be unwise to do so. Most of the time I am not that tired though.-=-

Think about it or don't, but please don't use the term on Always Learning, because it's judgmental.   

If you're too tired to drive, it's good not to drive.  If you're not too tired to drive, then you can drive.  
That isn't "tired" and "overtired."   It's tired and too tired to function safely.

You're not taking these ideas and trying them.  You're telling us why our ideas won't work.  We're not interested in that.  People have given you LOTS of ideas, and links. 

Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.

Change a little gradually.

If none of our ideas will help you, then sorry; you can't be helped by us.

-=-If you ask if he wants you to help him make a schedule, that's another invitation for him to agree to something at which he might fail (only the failure will be in writing).<<<
-=-What schedule, what failure in writing? -=-

THE SCHEDULE I just now made up saying "IF you ask..."

Read (carefully) a little.
Try a little.

You can't write your way to a better schedule.
We can't write you to a better schedule.

Thought and understanding might change, and action might change, but we can't do it, and writing won't do it.

Sandra

L R


>>>He knows about the relationship between exercising and building stamina.<<<
 
Does he? What leads you to believe so? What I hear from him is he wishes he could go faster, be stronger, do more of the activities yet the only time he does any of them is the once a week at the class. Up until now, there has not been any physical activity like this that he has chosen to do that really benefits from additional practice in this way. He chose not to do regular sports before now. He might play kickball or go bowling but he’s never played on a team, run track, or done other competitive physical activities where that would be something he actually experienced the results of intentionally practicing or exercising to build stamina. So theoretically, he’s heard about it. I can’t think of a time where he’s ever actually physically experienced it. Knowing something in theory or hearing from people that it is true and knowing how it affects him personally is different.

> He wants to do Parkour but he doesn't seem inclined to put the extra
effort into building his stamina that doing Parkour requires.
>>>He is choosing to do parkour classes without
extra exercise sessions at the moment.  This is how he's currently approaching parkour.  I would support him in that.  Be there to help him if he wants help.  Help make his home a peaceful place where he can feel understood, respected, appreciated.  <<<

I do support him in that. He’s telling me he’s unhappy with his lack of stamina, with his lack of strength, with the body weight he’s currently at. I am trying to understand him and support him. He expressed a wish to get better/faster/stronger.  I have tried simply empathizing with him and that doesn’t seem to help him feel any better either. So other times we’ve tried offering information. That doesn’t seem to help him feel any better either.  His coaches have told him if he doesn’t work to build up his skills, there will come a time he will not be able to keep up with the class. It’s a beginner class, there is no lower level to drop to for easier skill levels. It’s the only place in this area that has classes at all.
 
>>>In the original post, there is some 'softening'
of things for others, which don't need softening:-
> Folks with little ones who are working on sleep- please
don't let my post scare you!
> We've just hit a little snag
> My 15 year old son usually stays up until the wee hours
of the morning. It's not a negative thing
> I've offered to wake him, and have tried to do so,
always gently,
> If I try to be more insistent about waking him, still
gently
> We just invite, without comment
>>>It might help to explore this tendency.  What is it for?  Where did it come from?  What is the impact on others?  Does it help communication?   I imagine that a teenaged son would like to
have his strength and capacity acknowledged, in part by his parents speaking clearly and directly around him.<<<
 
What tendency? This is one post. Does it not help communication with people who don’t live in my house? What others am I concerned with the impact on- the people on the list who don’t have the benefit of knowing us personally and how peaceful our home is? When I typed the original post, I did it with an awareness that other people read this and some of those other people might be having a hard time with the concept of supporting children in finding their sleeping rhythm.  
When I talked about waking him and inviting him- it was explanatory. It was a detail so people reading and offering ideas would have a better sense of the manner in which I try to help him wake up and that when we invite him, it’s no-strings-attached invitations.
How did the format of the post here get translated to how I talk to my son? He hears from me often that I believe he is strong and capable. He helped me move furniture a few days ago and we had a great conversation about how his height and strength have changed since he was younger and wanted to help like that but was unable to lift heavier objects. Are you implying I don’t speak clearly and directly with him? On this list, trying to fully communicate what is happening is a lot different than talking with my son.
 
 
>The coaches, his dad and I have all encouraged my son to
have additional times during the week in between classes where he is doing exercise
>>>Why encourage?   
At the moment he's choosing not to do extra exercise.  With less encouragement, he may choose differently.  It's usually particularly important to teens that they make their own decisions, rather than be compliant. <<<
 
Encouraged because he asked for input on where he is and where he wishes he was. We are not asking or demanding he be compliant. We provided asked-for information along with support of his choices. The encouragement to consider choosing to add in some activity between classes from my or his dad has been probably a handful of times total, when our son has come to us to express his unhappiness about his level of ability. We mentioned how when he gets a new game, it takes practice to learn all the moves and to be able to do multiple combinations of keys or buttons quickly and efficiently and that it’s the same sort of thing with developing his ability with PK. His coach occasionally suggests activities that would help him become proficient in tasks he struggles to complete during classes.

We invited him to join activities we are doing that he expressed interest in joining and asked us to let him know when we’re doing them. It’s his decision to join us or not as it has been since he was able to stay home alone. Just as it is when we go to the store, or to a movie, or on a hike, or to a museum or whatever else we come up with to do that he’s free to join us or not. As I mentioned in another post, it’s not a constant thing either, it’s been sometimes when I or my husband are heading to bed and we let him know we plan to do whatever is happening the next day. I’ve actually  asked him (today) if he wants me to stop letting him know when I’m going walking since I don’t want to appear to be pressuring him to do things differently. He said he wants me to keep letting him know when I’m going because when he figures out what to do about his sleeping patterns he wants to go with me. I’m pretty sure he understands this is much like any other event or activity that we mention to him that falls into the optional category- if he wants to join us, he is welcome. If he wishes not to join us, he is welcome to do that as well.


> I have invited him to walk with me
> His dad has invited him to go to the gym with him
> We've offered to help him find a workout buddy
>>>These invitations coupled with all the
encouragement, give an implication that the people around him think he should be doing things differently. <<<

If he hadn’t asked us to let him know when we were doing those things, I could see that being the case. “All the encouragement” sounds like a lot. In the year he’s been going to PK classes, the encouragement to add in other activity has come from his father or me a handful of times. We know the coaches talk about that stuff, so we tried to just let him know we are available to help if he wants, and if we saw something we thought might interest him we passed it on. That’s why I brought it to the list, to hopefully find some new ideas on things we could try and not keep going on a tack that isn’t seeming to help. Should is also a word that is rare in our house and has been for a long time. We’ve had lots of conversations about “should” and the difference between being invited/offered something and being “should-ed” into doing things.  I’m fairly confident at this point, he knows invitations are just that. Free to be accepted or rejected as he feels works for him.
 
 
>>>...I like to garden.  And I like to do it without using
insecticides.  I know that insecticides are an option that lots of gardeners use, and I know that they may result in bigger crops, but even so, I choose not to use them.  If several of my friends "all encouraged" me to spray insecticide to get rid of the bugs, and then my closest friend invited me to share her insecticide, another close friend invited me to go to a garden centre where I could buy insecticide, and together they offered to find someone who would spray with me, I would feel misunderstood, unsupported, disrespected.   They could say that my garden won't work if I don't spray, and that they are only wanting to help me grow a great garden and point to the fact that I've said I like to garden.  But my focus is not on a great garden.  My focus is the joy I gain from gardening the way I do.
I like to watch the fruits and vegetables germinate and grow, the interplay of bugs and the seasons and the weather and the birds and the varieties of plants.  I like to explore and experiment and learn.  It may not look like the best way to garden, but I wouldn't enjoy gardening as much if I took on a 'maximum harvest' approach.  I like my approach.  And I'm grateful for family and friends who rejoice in my way because it works for me, regardless of the productivity of my garden.<<<

The difference in your scenario is that you didn’t tell your friends that you are unhappy, frustrated or looking for ideas to do your chosen activity better, faster, with more strength/stamina. My son expressed a wish for our help, more than once. I’m not concerned with him being great at PK, I’m concerned with his expression that he’s not finding joy in it because of the limits that come from only doing it once a week. He wants to continue doing PK and I want him to continue to enjoy it. I want to help him find ideas for things he can try to improve his enjoyment of it. What if you expressed an interest in getting help for a problem that the way you garden hadn’t addressed yet because you were inexperienced and people you asked for help offered ideas and a bit of encouragement here and there, but you still hadn’t hit on the solution that worked for you so they just stopped talking about it or trying to find new ideas? Would you take their inability to find that solution without going to others for new, fresh ideas as an implication that you aren’t a good enough gardener or would you appreciate that your friends wanted you to succeed in gardening so much that they were willing to seek out new ideas/resources that might be helpful to you (or feel something else totally)? Would you want them to just stop trying to find a way to help and to tell you they believed you were a capable gardener even though you are struggling with being the gardener you expressed a desire to be? Would it help you trust them to help you when you asked for help?


>>>Debbie<<<

I appreciate your response and questions to think about.
Lisa
 

haydee deldenovese

I meant to cut and paste but by mistake erased the email...

I can see how it would appear that it is "the same", however,  I don't tell the kids they can't have their sweets, they choose not to have them. We have read many articles about dental hygiene in the past, from which they have formulated their own believes. Because they seem to believe that the germs will ("get bigger") is that they choose not to have their sweets.
I am not a scientist,  nor a dentist to know exactly what it is that happens,  and I don't want to change their thinking,  I am okay with how they feel about it because that is their own informed decision/thought. If they chose to have the sweet and not brush their teeth that night (which has happened) I am okay with that choice as well, because it is one that the have made.
As far as the toothbrush having lots of germs, well... I agree, and that is why we keep our toothbrushes inside a disinfectant container. We have actually looked at our toothbrushes under the microscope for fun, and yes, there were times in which we did see some movement, but for the most part, they are pretty clean. However,  because not everyone has the device,  I can understand what you are saying.
Perhaps not the best advice for someone who wouldn't have their toothbrushes disinfected...
For the most part the children choose if they brush their teeth or not. There have been times in which I have asked them to brush (going to an event and such) and I haven't had to force them once.
I'm not sure if there was something else that caught your attention, since I mistakenly erased it...?

H.

On Jan 8, 2014 5:56 PM, "Sandra Dodd" <Sandra@...> wrote:
 

-=->>>I object to "over tired."  Tired is tired.  "Over tired" is judgmental and creates a "condition" out of the judgment of others.<<<

-=-I'll think about this. It seems I’m observing a different level of tired than when he says he's tired but doesn't fall asleep as soon as the car starts driving or he sits to watch tv. I have different levels of feeling tired, such as the tired that sometimes happens and which I will not drive during because it would be unwise to do so. Most of the time I am not that tired though.-=-


Think about it or don't, but please don't use the term on Always Learning, because it's judgmental.   

If you're too tired to drive, it's good not to drive.  If you're not too tired to drive, then you can drive.  
That isn't "tired" and "overtired."   It's tired and too tired to function safely.

You're not taking these ideas and trying them.  You're telling us why our ideas won't work.  We're not interested in that.  People have given you LOTS of ideas, and links. 

Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.

Change a little gradually.

If none of our ideas will help you, then sorry; you can't be helped by us.

-=-If you ask if he wants you to help him make a schedule, that's another invitation for him to agree to something at which he might fail (only the failure will be in writing).<<<
-=-What schedule, what failure in writing? -=-

THE SCHEDULE I just now made up saying "IF you ask..."

Read (carefully) a little.
Try a little.

You can't write your way to a better schedule.
We can't write you to a better schedule.

Thought and understanding might change, and action might change, but we can't do it, and writing won't do it.

Sandra

<zanyzingzap@...>


>>>You're not taking these ideas and trying them.  You're telling us why our ideas won't work.  We're not interested in that.  People have given you LOTS of ideas, and links. 

Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.<<<

What links? No links have come up in the responses to my post that I can see and I've checked both in email and on the group webpage.

I did read carefully. The schedule was something you brought in, not me. I never said I was going to offer to make him a schedule. You said offering to make him a schedule might set him up with another thing to fail and this time in writing. I don't want to offer to make him a schedule, nor set him up to fail and I don't like that being co-mingled with what I was actually asking for help with.

I didn't know it wasn't okay to say I've tried that when the ideas offered are ones that I've already tried or that won't work for real reasons other than just not being tried. They are great ideas, except they've been tried. As I said, with the exception of the music/movie which I said I would try.


I know what comes next is the repetition of read, try, watch, repeat so I'll stop.


Good night
LisaR




Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 8, 2014, at 7:16 PM, L R <zanyzingzap@...> wrote:

> >>>He knows about the relationship between exercising and building stamina.<<<
>
> Does he? What leads you to believe so? What I hear from him
> is he wishes he could go faster, be stronger, do more of the
> activities yet the only time he does any of them is the once a week at the class.

It's not that complex an idea!

But understanding isn't the same as being able to do.

Haven't you ever wanted to be able to do something without having to do a lot of practice and preparation? There are things I enjoy doing and get better at it because I enjoy the process that leads to getting better. There are things I don't enjoy the process of and would just like to do.

> Knowing something in theory or hearing from people that it
> is true and knowing how it affects him personally is different.

Cut him some slack. He's 15. He's still working out the conflicting feelings between wanting something and wanting to work towards it. Just because he doesn't have how to handle the emotions figured out doesn't mean he's not working it through. Just because he hasn't figured out how his feelings could pull in several different directions doesn't mean he doesn't understand a basic idea that working at something helps you be better at it.

> there will come a time he will not be able to keep up with the class

That's a reality. And it's possible he'll be frustrated and upset with himself. It's part of learning about the world and about himself. But don't insult him by assuming he doesn't understand. It's his emotions he doesn't understand, not these basic concepts.

> He expressed a wish to get better/faster/stronger.

If he wanted to increase his in-game skills to finish a quest in a video game, how would you respond? Presumably you wouldn't have much knowledge so you might ask him questions, ask him what his ideas were. You'd try to draw him out so he could put his thoughts into words and think more clearly about it. At this point, though, probably the less you talk about this the better. Listen. Ask a few questions. Listen more.

You're written *a lot* to explain this. I can feel the energy you're expending on this issue and it feels overwhelming. It probably feels overwhelming to your son too. I think he needs someone who has a calm confidence that he can work this out. Be a sounding board. Be a resource. But don't try fixing him. He's like a butterfly trying to emerge from its cocoon. It's not an easy process!

Joyce

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 8, 2014, at 11:55 AM, zanyzingzap@... wrote:

> I am not sure how that would work with his parkour class since that is 530pm-630pm

You responded too quickly. It's easy to say No, that idea won't work, than it is to let ideas swirl about for a few days.

He could sleep in 2 shifts. People do that. He could have different schedules of sleeping for different days. I'm sure there's other ideas. Maybe it won't work. But I think you've worried at this problem so much and have tossed it at us with the hope someone here will hand you a solution. People can toss around ideas, but we can't come up with some perfect solution.

I think your son needs you to worry less and be more calm and trusting. He's got emotions enough. He doesn't need you reflecting fear and worry back at him.

Joyce

Karen

>>>>>Parkour is very physically demanding.<<<<<

As is swimming and rock climbing, mountain biking and kayaking. We have done all of these activities, none of them with a prerequisite for additional exercise. Currently, my son (11 years), is in a rock climbing program. He has taken it twice before...last year I believe. He loves it.

Just today the woman who was belaying him (holding and keeping the rope attached to his harness taught so that he could climb higher) told me that she felt he is doing the best he's ever done. He did have difficulties with some of the climbs last time, and he was a bit frustrated. I listened, encouraged, asked if he wanted to continue. He didn't at the time, but requested it again just recently.

If he decides it is something that he has a deep passion for, I have no doubt he will find a way to excel at it. I could ruin any hope of him finding that passion if I offered too much advice that wasn't invited. It's a fine balance. Listening closely to what you son *is* telling you will help guide you in support of his explorations best.

>>>>> I'm just wondering what thoughts you have, what you might suggest if it were your own kids or if you can point out something I can try to help him meet his desire to have lots of gaming time and his desire to be able to do Parkour. <<<<<

For gaming...Help him have lots of gaming time. Start a gaming club, either virtually or in real life. Play with him yourself during the day. Watch gaming videos with him.

For parkour...Take him to his parkour classes. Give him room to explore it the way he wants to. If he wants to perform better, find ways to help him do that at home. It seems (from what you've shared) that he prefers home. Get a chin up bar. They're inexpensive. Get a miniature trampoline. You can find them second hand and put it anywhere he spends a lot of time. Get a yoga ball. Get a jump rope, a hula hoop. Make a parkour course down the hall or through the living room. See if you can pick up an exercise mat second hand so he can practice his drops and rolls. Pick up an inexpensive set of hand weights or pulleys.

Get creative with him! Have fun!

Karen.

Karen

>>>>>Start a gaming club, either virtually or in real life.<<<<<

I wanted to add to what I wrote here and suggest a group for unschooling families with children who have an interest in gaming. It is called Unschooling Gamers. It's also a Yahoo list. Perhaps your son might find more friends there with whom he could game virtually. The link is as follows:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/unschooling_gamers/

The moderators request that you make clear you are an unschooling family.

Karen.

Sandra Dodd

I'm really sorry to have assumed there had been links. There usually are.  I didn't check back.

Here's one to clarify how the discussion has worked for a dozen years:

We're not here to help individuals on their own terms, to special order, but to discuss ideas for the benefit of everyone in the discussion.

-=- I never said I was going to offer to make him a schedule. You said offering to make him a schedule might set him up with another thing to fail and this time in writing. I don't want to offer to make him a schedule, nor set him up to fail and I don't like that being co-mingled with what I was actually asking for help with. -=-

I was mentioning something that some people might suggest, and why I didn't think it was a good unschooling recommendation.  You seemed to have rejected other ideas, so I was saying that even if he was asking for help there were kinds of help that would be harm, rather than help.

-=-I didn't know it wasn't okay to say I've tried that when the ideas offered are ones that I've already tried or that won't work for real reasons other than just not being tried. They are great ideas, except they've been tried. As I said, with the exception of the music/movie which I said I would try. -=-

We're not here to read why you don't like our ideas, or why they won't work.  We're here to discuss unschooling.

I think there were lots of suggestions made that you could have thought about a while, and see whether you could incorporate some of it.  People suggested different ways of seeing and considering, but you said no, no, no instead of quietly waiting a week or two to see if any of it might percolate through your life and make something easier—even if just making it easier for you not to worry about it.

I don't know of a better resource for ideas than this discussion.  It's free, it's here all the time, and I'm sorry we're not able to help you.

It sounds as if your son has a lot going for him—he's has the ability to do parkour; most people don't.  Many of those who could do it don't live where there's a place to do it, or to learn more.   He has friends to play games with; many people don't.  He has a mom trying to help him.  Those are assets.  Perhaps remembering that he's getting older every day will help, and some of the ideas here:

Sandra

Clare Kirkpatrick

-=-Haven't you ever wanted to be able to do something without having to do a lot of practice and preparation? There are things I enjoy doing and get better at it because I enjoy the process that leads to getting better. There are things I don't enjoy the process of and would just like to do.-=-

This 'doing different exercise in order to find another activity easier' thing is interesting me. I have searched for years to find a physical activity that I truly enjoy and will do whether I'm tired or it's hard work. I ran regularly for a few months, dieted, lost two stone, got bored, put most of it back on again. I enjoyed it at first because the challenge was fun. The challenge of being able to run for two minutes, then five, then fifteen etc. Once I'd achieved that it became boring. I tried swimming. Boring. I tried tennis. Boring. I tried home exercise videos.  Boring. Then I stopped looking. I did a Gangnam Style parody dance at a home ed camp in the summer and enjoyed it so much I wanted to do more dancing. Now I do tango once a week (sometimes twice if I'm going to a milonga - a tango party) and salsa once a week too. I get tired but I love it. There is no way you would get me running to build my stamina for dancing however much I love dancing. I would, however, dance every evening if I could, which would build my stamina naturally as I wouldn't be doing it for that reason. 

My dad's a personal trainer and he's very hot on people not forcing themselves to do exercise they don't enjoy. He sees it as pointless and counterproductive and unsustainable. He also says that the best training for anything is not to do something different but to do more of the same.

Two reasons there why you should let go of the ' doing boring stuff to make the fun stuff easier' *unless* your son does it completely off his own bat. I've seen this reaction to invitations with a tinge of judgement/ulterior motive in my daughter and myself. It stops it being a rational choice for the invitee to say 'no' as it is always influenced by the feeling of judgement from the inviter. Stop even hoping that he'll do more exercise - he'll feel that too. Trust he'll do the exercise he wants.

Also, I know you said about setting up a parkour group at better times, but what about simply finding other groups so he can do more of it? What about ways/places for him to practice outside of the group? Has he the space to practice backflips? Could you create such space? Could you create a parkour group more locally with schooled kids? Why do they need to be home educated? The parkour groups near us aren't home ed groups.


Sent from Samsung Mobile

Marina Moses

"He also says that the best training for anything is not to do something different but to do more of the same." 

I was thinking this exact thing because I too get bored with exercise for exercise sake! Would it be possible to hire his coach for private lessons at a convenient time for both of them? My daughter teaches dance to kids and many of them who want to improve so they can get on the competition team take private ballet lessons from her to improve their technique. She sees great improvement in their regular classes, they love the extra attention and they almost always get through the competition auditions successfully! 

- 
Love and Prayers,
Marina

Lisa Celedon

=- I never said I was going to offer to make him a schedule. You said offering to make him a schedule might set him up with another thing to fail and this time in writing. I don't want to offer to make him a schedule, nor set him up to fail and I don't like that being co-mingled with what I was actually asking for help with. -=-

So you say you've tried all the ideas suggested an none work.
(have you tried them in combination? Get up early, cook his favorite breakfast, turn on some fun, hilarious movie or his favorite music, then go in his room with a plate, open the blinds, announce cheerfully, breakfast! And serve it to him in bed.

If he tells you he wants you to wake him up, and then gets unhappy when you're not doing it to his liking, ask him to tell you exactly how he wants you to wake him up.

If you're doing that and he's still unhappy, maybe he's grappling with his own desires- whether he *really* wants to get up early or not (or really get into parkour or not- he's made it pretty clear he doesn't want to do more outside the class- and please don't assume your 15 year old doesn't completely understand the link between exercise and training and stamina and performance. His unwillingness to do the extra is probably not because he doesn't understand the link between those things- but because he's grappling with whether or not he's really willing to do it). You can't help him with that internal conflict. It seems maybe he wants you to, and you want to help.
You can help with external stuff. Be calm, be sweet, be a sounding board, as Joyce said. I know that is what you've said you're doing, but what you're writing and what I think people are reacting to is that you are looking for people here to give you answers to two questions only your son can answer within himself.

Lisa



Sent from my iPhone

Lisa Celedon

<<>In the original post, there is some 'softening'
of things for others, which don't need softening:-
> Folks with little ones who are working on sleep- please
don't let my post scare you!
> We've just hit a little snag
> My 15 year old son usually stays up until the wee hours
of the morning. It's not a negative thing
> I've offered to wake him, and have tried to do so,
always gently,
> If I try to be more insistent about waking him, still
gently
> We just invite, without comment
>>>It might help to explore this tendency. What is it for? Where did it come from? What is the impact on others? Does it help communication? I imagine that a teenaged son would like to
have his strength and capacity acknowledged, in part by his parents speaking
clearly and directly around him.<<<

What tendency?>>

As Sandra said, 'softening' language.

By referring to something as 'a little snag' - and reassuring people not to worry or be scared - reassuring people that you're gentle and considerate of your son (by stating it multiple times, and again)

Calling something a 'little snag' and then expending a lot of written energy on it indicates a.) it's more than 'a little snag' even if you didnt want to say so, and b.) your own level of discomfort with the situation which you are trying to minimize.

Sandra is inviting you to look at your words, and what they can tell you about how you are thinking about things. Because that is where the 'snag' is.

Why did you use reassuring and/or minimizing language in your post? Not as a question to report back on, but as a question for you to ask yourself to gain some clarity about what you are thinking and feeling about your son.

I have been finding (thanks to carefully reading, and thinking about words I've read here), that the more attention I pay to how I frame a 'problem' or a 'snag' in words, the more clues I get to how my thinking or my perspective is really what the 'snag' is all about. It often reveals a parenting or personal issue I still have to work on (like being calm and comfortable with my children or my husband struggling with their feelings - a work in progress for me).



Lisa C


Sent from my iPhone

<regan@...>

Can he do parkour twice per week instead of once?  Does the facility offer a conditioning-for-parkour class (or might they, if it was suggested)? 


When I was 34, I took a class in Aerial Silks at a local circus training place.  Even at my age, my skills and strength increased dramatically when I went from one weekly class to two -- even though I assumed it would just mean being stuck on skills twice a week instead of once.  My old schoolish mentality had me telling myself that only advanced students and stars went twice a week, when that was exactly what I needed.

Sandra Dodd

-=-Calling something a 'little snag' and then expending a lot of written energy on it indicates a.) it's more than 'a little snag' even if you didnt want to say so, and b.) your own level of discomfort with the situation which you are trying to minimize.-=-

I bought a sewing pattern for dress pants for Keith once. I've sewn some complicated things. I did an embroidered cowboy shirt with snaps once. I can sew with or without patterns. This one, though, had four pages of directions, and the diagrams and print were smaller than normal. And there was a full paragraph reassuring the reader that dress pants weren't difficult. I looked at the pattern several times thinking "maybe..." but decided not to. I had never seen a pattern before with an assurance of it being doable.

The first thing I thought when I read the intro that asked parents of toddlers not to be alarmed was that this mom felt somehow that unschooling was creating a situation, and that what parents of toddlers did could lead to something dark and dangerous. Something alarming.

I think parents of toddlers would be thrilled to know that a teen could sleep a long time, which means the MOM gets to sleep for hours, all in a row. I didn't see why parents of toddlers should have been addressed at all; it wasn't about them, it was about the mom who was writing, which is often true here.

People get angry sometimes because we see what they didn't see, but that's the good part about writing in a forum like this one, with many experienced unschoolers willing to help others, and with newer unschoolers interested in turning these ideas over and seeing the backs and undersides of them, hefting their weight, comparing them to others. Some are quite similar, even though the words and names are all different.

D. Regan


On 09/01/2014, at 11:16 AM, L R wrote:

>>>He knows about the relationship between exercising and building stamina.<<<
 
 
Does he? What leads you to believe so? What I hear from him is he wishes he could go faster, be stronger, do more of the activities yet the only time he does any of them is the once a week at the class.

Some people wish they could play piano, but they're not inspired to actually sit at the piano and explore it.  That's ok.  It won't help for the people around them to cling to the idea that they wished they could play the piano, and nudge them to achieve it.  People who are drawn to play piano will get into it; in all sorts of ways.  Lack of prior experience of what it feels like to learn an instrument is not an obstacle.

My experience of unschoolers is that in exploring their interests, their competence grows.  They gain competence joyfully by doing what they're inspired to do.  It sounds like your son is not inspired to do things that are about building his stamina at this point in time.  That may limit what he can do in parkour.  He may let parkour go.  He may enjoy staying at the beginner level.  There may be things he enjoys more than parkour.  

Can you open up his world more so that he has plenty of options?  Sometimes children with limited options stay with an activity beyond the time when they've lost most of their interest in it.  Sometimes, especially if parents are vested in them continuing with something, they have a hard time admitting that they're no longer interested enough to continue with it.  Sometimes it can be a nice idea in theory, like playing the piano.  But in practice, other things are more appealing than really getting into the nice idea. 
  
When I typed the original post, I did it with an awareness that other people read this and some of those other people might be having a hard time with the concept of supporting children in finding their sleeping rhythm. 

On a radical unschooling list, it's reasonable to assume that people do understand the concept of helping their children with sleep issues.  They don't need their hands held through such a discussion.  What does help is clear writing that represents what is going on at your place, especially for the children.

I would focus less on how other people are understanding you, and focus more on *being* understanding.  What is your son liking, not liking, what makes him happy, what would really brighten his day?  For some people, automatic answers to those questions leap to mind.  It's better to be of an open frame of mind so that you're seeking anew to find answers to those questions.  Automatic answers have a good chance of being inaccurate. 

Are you implying I don’t speak clearly and directly with him?

No, I wondered if the hand-holding style of phrasing in the original post was part of his environment, and picturing that it might be somewhat stifling or frustrating to a 15 year old boy growing into manhood.  Something to think about, or not :)

My son expressed a wish for our help, more than once. I’m not concerned with him being great at PK, I’m concerned with his expression that he’s not finding joy in it because of the limits that come from only doing it once a week.

Help him do things he does find joy in.

He wants to continue doing PK and I want him to continue to enjoy it. I want to help him find ideas for things he can try to improve his enjoyment of it. What if you expressed an interest in getting help for a problem that the way you garden hadn’t addressed yet because you were inexperienced and people you asked for help offered ideas and a bit of encouragement here and there, but you still hadn’t hit on the solution that worked for you so they just stopped talking about it or trying to find new ideas? Would you take their inability to find that solution
without going to others for new, fresh ideas as an implication that you aren’t a good enough gardener or would you appreciate that your friends wanted you to succeed in gardening so much that they were willing to seek out new ideas/resources that might be helpful to you (or feel something else totally)? Would you want them to just stop trying to find a way to help and to tell you they believed you were a capable gardener even though you are struggling with being the gardener you expressed a desire to be? Would it help you trust them to help you when you asked for help? 

That's quite a crescendo of emotional drama in the context of how to sort out what was originally was described as a "little snag"!  If I ask friends for ideas and nothing they come up with really suits me, I move on.  No hurt feelings, no mistrust developed.  Not everything has a "solution".  But there are usually options aplenty.

What is the "solution" you are looking for?  Perhaps you see the solution as something that will result in your son building up his stamina and continuing to make progress with parkour.  If your son was really keen on taking parkour further than he does now, he has options to do so, but he's not choosing them.  There's no magic solution for you to find.  He has options.  He's making choices.  Supporting those, will be relationship-building and healing.
:)
Debbie.

Sandra Dodd

Debbie Regan wrote: -=-That's quite a crescendo of emotional drama in the context of how to sort out what was originally was described as a "little snag"! If I ask friends for ideas and nothing they come up with really suits me, I move on. No hurt feelings, no mistrust developed. Not everything has a "solution". But there are usually options aplenty.-=-

I agree. If I ask my friends for help and their ideas don't spark and click with me, that's fine. I could also buy books or look on youtube, but *maybe* I'm just not really that interested in my garden, or I read enough to see WHY none of my neighbors are growing asparagus and I shouldn't spend too much time trying to to it in the desert myself, either.

I learn, about PH levels and water tables and soils and realize the asparagus at the grocery store up the alley is not so expensive after all. I learn about myself.

It's possible that in the questions about waking a son up the learning might need to be about the mom—the mom learning about herself.
When my kids asked to be woken up, I tried gently, which usually worked, and then the second time I would say "Half an hour; get up." Not in a nice way, not in a mean way. In a helpful, direct, informational way.

Had any of my kids pressed me to wake the up and then been rude to me about it, I would have said (in a direct and informational way) that I wasn't willing to be abused about it. They had alarm clocks. Kids now have nice alarms clocks functions on their phones. If they want human help they should be nice to the humans.


Debbie had further asked: -=-What is the "solution" you are looking for? Perhaps you see the solution as something that will result in your son building up his stamina and continuing to make progress with parkour. If your son was really keen on taking parkour further than he does now, he has options to do so, but he's not choosing them. There's no magic solution for you to find. He has options. He's making choices. Supporting those, will be relationship-building and healing.-=-

I don't know, and I don't need to know, but if something is triggering history within the mom, it will help her to know that and look at it as clearly as she can. Maybe there are bad memories or resentments in the mom's relationship with her own mom or parents or teachers or hobbies or sleeping or sho knows what all.

Parenting, unschooling, can be smooth and easy for years and suddenly become difficult for the parent, even if the child hasn't changed, because the age of the child has reached an age at which the parent has unaddressed scars, wounds, associations.

Some can get through that with that awareness and the careful application of principles to their decisions. Just as being an attachent parent can help heal childhood trauma in the parent, being a patient parent to a teen can soothe the wounds the parent might still be carrying, hidden, encapsulated, of teen-years frustrations of their own.
http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy
There are people who would be willing to help a mom comb through that.

Sandra

<zanyzingzap@...>

>>>"For parkour...Take him to his parkour classes. Give him room to explore

it the way he wants to. If he wants to perform better, find ways to help him do that at home. It seems (from what you've shared) that he prefers home. Get a chin up bar. They're inexpensive. Get a miniature trampoline. You can find them second hand and put it anywhere he spends a lot of time. Get a yoga ball. Get a jump rope, a hula hoop. Make a parkour course down the hall or through the living room. See if you can pick up an exercise mat second hand so he can practice his drops and rolls. Pick up an inexpensive set of hand weights or pulleys."<<<

>>>"Can he do parkour twice per week instead of once?  Does the facility
offer a conditioning-for-parkour class (or might they, if it was suggested)?"<<<

>>>"These invitations coupled with all the encouragement, give an
implication that the people around him think he should be doing things differently." <<<

How are the first two quoted ideas different than the idea in the third that suggested when we encouraged him to follow his coaches instructions and inviting him to walk or go to the gym with us as telling him he should be doing things differently?

For years we've had a rebounder, yoga ball, exercise mat, jump rope, sit up bar, chin up bar, bowflex, moonshoes, handweights and a bunch of other stuff that's easily accessible. Wouldn't adding in other stuff now send a message we think he should be doing something different if he didn't ask for it? Coincidentally, in a conversation totally unrelated to Parkour over the weekend, he asked about getting a hula hoop so I'm going to find one when I'm out shopping tomorrow.

A few months ago I did tell him we'd be happy to take him twice a week if he wanted to do that.

Also I don't know if it makes a difference with the opinion to stop invitinging or not but the invites to go walking or to the gym have been offered since long before any of us even knew what Parkour was. Since he became able to stay home if he didn't want to go some where with us, we usually invite him to join us whether it's going out of the house to go to the store, to a movie, to a museum, to visit someone, go on walk or bike ride or whatever. So since he often will say no to those other activities, would the recommendation be to stop offering those as well? Wouldn't continuing to invite for those "non exercise" things but discontinuing walking or gym visit invites potentially send a negative/confusing message? He doesn't seem upset in any way when we offer, usually he says something along the lines of "thanks, I'm good here" or something like that. I realized the "always says no" to walks/gym was a misstatement by me as I remembered, while talking with my husband, there have been times my son went on walks with me when I went in the evenings- up until this past summer when he stopped because the weather got too hot for comfort and he just hasn't taken me up on any since then.

He chose not to go to Parkour today. When he told me I simply said okay and that I would let them know at the facility his class is held at.

Someone asked about finding other groups, more locally and such. I sometimes check online, by calling around to other gyms/fitness centers, and asking other people I know are interested. I've checked a couple of the local colleges and libraries for bulletin boards where things get posted. If you have other ideas on places to check, I'm all ears. So far none have shown up other than college kids "that are focused more on doing tricks than on doing Parkour" according to my son. My son doesn't do backflips, but were he able to and wanting to practice, I certainly would set up a space for him to do that. My idea was that if a group of home educated kids were interested, we could have set up a class during the day, during the week if it helped with gaming times and sleeping patterns for him. Plus I thought he might enjoy having a class with kids he knows better- he thought it was a cool idea when I asked him if any of his friends had expressed interest in going a few months ago.

Maybe this in an internal struggle about what he wants to do as was suggested. I think we were clear with him when he started that we're happy to take him as long as he wants to go and that we'll support him as well if he decides he wants to stop. So I hope he'd tell us if he didn't want to go anymore.

Either way things will all be changing in a few months when we move.

I'm still reading and contemplating but those are some thoughts I had.

Thanks.
LisaR

Sandra Dodd

-=-How are the first two quoted ideas different than the idea in the third that suggested when we encouraged him to follow his coaches instructions and inviting him to walk or go to the gym with us as telling him he should be doing things differently? -=-

Maybe they're different aspects of a large array of suggestions offered freely by several different volunteers with their own varied experiences and ideas.

We can't tell how things are going at your house.  
It would be much better if you would read and then (for days, or weeks) try those ideas out, in different ways, while giving them some time to take effect, and seeing how your son reacts.

When a person's responses here are too quick, too wordy, defensive and argumentative, it's possible that it's a trait to watch at home, too.  Many problems dissolve when moms say less in moments of frustration.


Sandra


Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 14, 2014, at 11:59 PM, <zanyzingzap@...> <zanyzingzap@...> wrote:

> Wouldn't adding in other stuff now send a message we think
> he should be doing something different if he didn't ask for it?

Your words will paint the picture of a situation. People reading will want answers to the situation painted *not* to what's going on in your home. (No one here can see that!)

The closer your painted situation is to your actual situation, the more the words will help you too.

You *think* you're asking how you can support your son. What you're *really* asking is how you can fix him so he can do what he says he wants to. (People reveal a whole lot more than they realize by how they write about something.)

If you want to unschool, the answer is to empower his choices. Create an environment where he has options that he can -- as much as possible -- do without relying on someone else AND the freedom from feeling pushed in a particular direction.

What he needs more than a deluge of ideas to do things the "right" way is an understanding and sympathetic ear to his struggles as he tries to figure out what he really wants.

Lend him your power and your greater experience with the world. Let him tap into it. Offer ideas but don't attach yourself to him making the choice you believe is right for what he says he wants to do. Open doors for him but don't stand next to the ones you think he should choose.

> A few months ago I did tell him we'd be happy to take
> him twice a week if he wanted to do that.

Describing why an idea won't work *feels* clarifying (to the teller). But to the people offering ideas it's discouraging and often shuts down the flow of ideas.

That's true in life, not just here. And it's good to learn how to be aware of yourself doing that when you want people to brainstorm ideas for you.

> Also I don't know if it makes a difference with the opinion to stop invitinging

What's offered here goes beyond opinions. They're principles that help unschooling flourish and ideas about what those principles might look like when put into action. This forum isn't for offering plug and play ideas. It's to help people understand the principles so they can figure out how to make those principles work in their own families.

> So since he often will say no to those other activities, would the recommendation be to stop offering those as well?

You're looking for rules.

In your post *you* tied the offers to walk with increasing his stamina. If the walks are just something that's always been in his life then he's not going to feel pressured. Unless *you're* focused on ways for him to increase his stamina. Then he's going to feel the pressure whether you say it in words or not.

The ideas that will move closer to unschooling will empower him to make his own choices. Even if you think those choices won't help or aren't the best.

> Someone asked about finding other groups, more locally and such...

Do put in effort to provide him with information and the power to make his choices happen. But recognize that *he* will put the effort into making something happen when it's important to him. Important enough to do rather than just think about doing.

Joyce

<plaidpanties666@...>

>>You *think* you're asking how you can support your son. What you're *really* asking is how you can fix him so he can do what he says he wants to. <<


I sometimes "catch" myself doing that - in the moment, I don't realize I'm trying to fix Morgan, I think I'm trying to help her find the best solution. It helps me to step back and think about how *I* learn new things, particularly new skills. I like learning new skills, so it's a familiar process. If it's something challenging, then after the first rush of "hey, I think I can do this" I get to what I call The Frustration Plateau (in my mind, it has capital letters, just like that, but it's in a bold, scary font). When I get to the Frustration Plateau I feel like I'm all thumbs, like I can't possibly hold enough new information in my mind and my muscles to be able to succeed.Because learning new things is something I've done many times, it doesn't take me too long to notice I'm there - and when I notice, I relax a bit. I won't get through the Frustration Plateau by grinding my teeth and fretting harder, I'll get through it with repetition and practice. I try to make choices with that in mind. But it absolutely won't help for someone else to say "oh, you just need to practice" - that will only get me more frustrated ;)

With that in mind, it's easier for me to see when Mo gets to "frustration plateaus" of her own. Sometimes she decides whatever she's working on isn't worth it at that point. Sometimes she storms away in tears. Sometimes she flutters around in a state of indecision, unable to do exactly what she wants the way she wants yet, but not interested in anything else. I've learned to commiserate and not offer too many ideas and options - just one or two to see if that's what she needs, and then I drop it. During calm, social moments, I tell her about my own frustrations and how I get through them. Sometimes she commiserates with me and tells me her strategies to get through when she's stuck.  

D. Regan

Given that the problem as stated, currently seems quite small and there is an interstate move in a few months, the continued intensity around it may be worth exploring. 

Sandra Dodd has sometimes used the analogy of treating our children like honoured guests.  I think it's useful here, too.  It's great for hosts to offer things which guests may like. But it can be overdone.  Guests only need to be shown where the bathroom is once - continuing to do so is too much.  Some ideas about interesting things to do and places to see, could be helpful.  But it's possible to mention them too often; so that it's *un*helpful, almost harassing. 

There's a balance in which the people around us feel supported and cared for, but not intensely fussed around.  For some people finding that happy balance is a challenge.  Perhaps there has been a pattern of wanting to control outcomes, perfectionist tendencies, a desire to be right...  Unschooling won't be able to flourish while those features remain a significant part of the home.   Intensity over small things in a parent is likely to be somewhat disempowering of other family members, especially children.

Reflecting on problematic patterns of thinking and doing, and making an effort to listen more, be stiller, more peaceful will help.   There may be lots of habitual resistance to the new ideas:  'I do already listen', 'I'm only trying to be helpful', 'they said they wanted x and I'm just trying to provide it', 'I am always gentle with them', 'our home is peaceful already' ...  
Working with relaxing breathing techniques is a good way to start to make positive changes.  
:)
Debbie

How are the first two quoted ideas different than the idea in the third that suggested when we encouraged him to follow his coaches instructions and inviting him to walk or go to the gym with us as telling him he should be doing things differently? 

For years we've had a rebounder, yoga ball, exercise mat, jump rope, sit up bar, chin up bar, bowflex, moonshoes, handweights and a bunch of other stuff that's easily accessible. Wouldn't adding in other stuff now send a message we think he should be doing something different if he didn't ask for it? Coincidentally, in a conversation totally unrelated to Parkour over the weekend, he asked about getting a hula hoop so I'm going to find one when I'm out shopping tomorrow. 

A few months ago I did tell him we'd be happy to take him twice a week if he wanted to do that. 

Also I don't know if it makes a difference with the opinion to stop invitinging or not but the invites to go walking or to the gym have been offered since long before any of us even knew what Parkour was. Since he became able to stay home if he didn't want to go some where with us, we usually invite him to join us whether it's going out of the house to go to the store, to a movie, to a museum, to visit someone, go on walk or bike ride or whatever. So since he often will say no to those other activities, would the recommendation be to stop offering those as well? Wouldn't continuing to invite for those "non exercise" things but discontinuing walking or gym visit invites potentially send a negative/confusing message? He doesn't seem upset in any way when we offer, usually he says something along the lines of "thanks, I'm good here" or something like that. I realized the "always says no" to walks/gym was a misstatement by me as I remembered, while talking with my husband, there have been times my son went on walks with me when I went in the evenings- up until this past summer when he stopped because the weather got too hot for comfort and he just hasn't taken me up on any since then. 

He chose not to go to Parkour today. When he told me I simply said okay and that I would let them know at the facility his class is held at. 

Someone asked about finding other groups, more locally and such. I sometimes check online, by calling around to other gyms/fitness centers, and asking other people I know are interested. I've checked a couple of the local colleges and libraries for bulletin boards where things get posted. If you have other ideas on places to check, I'm all ears. So far none have shown up other than college kids "that are focused more on doing tricks than on doing Parkour" according to my son. My son doesn't do backflips, but were he able to and wanting to practice, I certainly would set up a space for him to do that. My idea was that if a group of home educated kids were interested, we could have set up a class during the day, during the week if it helped with gaming times and sleeping patterns for him. Plus I thought he might enjoy having a class with kids he knows better- he thought it was a cool idea when I asked him if any of his friends had expressed interest in going a few months ago. 

Maybe this in an internal struggle about what he wants to do as was suggested. I think we were clear with him when he started that we're happy to take him as long as he wants to go and that we'll support him as well if he decides he wants to stop. So I hope he'd tell us if he didn't want to go anymore.

Either way things will all be changing in a few months when we move. 

I'm still reading and contemplating but those are some thoughts I had. 


L R

Thanks to all who responded. I apologize for sounding argumentative. It wasn't my intention but I see that was the result. I do appreciate that folks are willing to take the time to offer their thoughts and ideas. I was stuck and looking for someone to give me "the" answer to that issue. And I realized it's about fear. I struggled with sleep problems for a very long time (undiagnosed medical issues, night-owl tendencies and day person life as a child, other things). Also my son has reached an age where I was already working and trying to leave home (ran away a few times), life was very tumultuous for me then with worry about things as basic as food, shelter and personal safety. I worry I have not given him tools to care for himself when I watch some things he does. More fear and crazy overblown connections.

I think knowing we are moving near my husband's family when we've been pretty out of sight for many years has brought insecurities and doubts to the surface I hadn't really realized were still lurking. We've had years to adjust our ideas, principles and expectations. We've never really talked much with his family about our choices.

As to the practical part of the question I asked, I think for the time being he's let go of trying to be up early to game with the one friend. I did make a list of all the ideas people offered, even ones that were the same or very close to things we've talked about or tried. I left it on the table while I was doing some other things, and he saw it. We talked about some of the ideas and about other things. He asked me to hang onto the list, so I tucked it in my calendar book where either of us can find it again and use it or add to it.

Thanks again. I'm going to go read some more then go join my son so he can catch me up on things he was working on last night. He came down while I was working on this and said once he finishes a skype call with a friend back east he wants to show me some stuff. I'm grateful he wants to share what he's been up to with me.

LisaR