Video games and upset
<mranzer@...>
My 7yo old son has been play on video games on portable devices and on the computer for awhile, and we just got him and xbox360 for Christmas.
My husband and I help him if he asks, and watch him play.
He'd occasionally get frustrated when he got stuck or couldn't figure out games on the iPad or computer, but with the xbox, he has been crying a lot, sometimes until he is shaking when he is frustrated. We look at walk-thrus on Youtube, that helps once he calms down. We comfort him and suggest taking a break and doing something else, which sometimes works.
We love that he has so much fun playing the games, and want to help him through the upset.
Can anyone offer other ways they have handled situations like this?
Thanks,
Meryl
Sandra Dodd
-=-He'd occasionally get frustrated when he got stuck or couldn't figure out games on the iPad or computer, but with the xbox, he has been crying a lot, sometimes until he is shaking when he is frustrated. We look at walk-thrus on Youtube, that helps once he calms down. We comfort him and suggest taking a break and doing something else, which sometimes works.-=-
First, don't compare this to the kind of frustration kids get when someone else is trying to force them to do something. He has the option to leave the game alone. He REALLY wants to figure it out.
Here's something Dan Vilter wrote. It will be charmingly antique now, but still the principles hold true.
He wrote "A Google search on "Video Game Reviews" turns up about 1,410,000 worth. "
The count just now was 1,250,000,000. :-)
http://sandradodd.com/game/cheats is the article.
And that article (and my whole videogame page) came after Dan, Kathy Ward and I did a standing-room-only workshop at the HSC conference where one each of our kids (Daniel, Holly, Jonathan) played a game which Dan had rigged to show up on a huge screen, and talked about what they were doing.
That was before YouTube and when a "walkthrough" was a word document formatted roughly with diagrams made of dashes and crosses and asterisks. :-) Our kids were doing live walkthroughs, or demos, to parents who hadn't seen those video games played before. It should be much easier now to help a child these days!
I used to make pages of notes for my kids when they couldn't read, with little drawings of the foods for recipes in Harvest Moon, and a calendar to keep the festival days visible, when free items were available.
Maybe there's something you can do like that—to keep track of things he might want to look for or know later in the game.
Sandra
First, don't compare this to the kind of frustration kids get when someone else is trying to force them to do something. He has the option to leave the game alone. He REALLY wants to figure it out.
Here's something Dan Vilter wrote. It will be charmingly antique now, but still the principles hold true.
He wrote "A Google search on "Video Game Reviews" turns up about 1,410,000 worth. "
The count just now was 1,250,000,000. :-)
http://sandradodd.com/game/cheats is the article.
And that article (and my whole videogame page) came after Dan, Kathy Ward and I did a standing-room-only workshop at the HSC conference where one each of our kids (Daniel, Holly, Jonathan) played a game which Dan had rigged to show up on a huge screen, and talked about what they were doing.
That was before YouTube and when a "walkthrough" was a word document formatted roughly with diagrams made of dashes and crosses and asterisks. :-) Our kids were doing live walkthroughs, or demos, to parents who hadn't seen those video games played before. It should be much easier now to help a child these days!
I used to make pages of notes for my kids when they couldn't read, with little drawings of the foods for recipes in Harvest Moon, and a calendar to keep the festival days visible, when free items were available.
Maybe there's something you can do like that—to keep track of things he might want to look for or know later in the game.
Sandra
Jill Parmer
All those platforms use different hand devices or movements. Is he
frustrated that he can't control his character or item very well yet?
Maybe see if there's a simple game on the xbox that gets a player used to
all the buttons on the controller, or cheer him on in the sense of 'hang in
there, honey, while you're fingers are getting used to the controller'.
Usually at the beginning of games there's a quick tutorial to see what
button goes to whatever action. My kids responded well to the idea that
they would "die" a lot while getting used to new videos games, and I would
share in their excitement at each new success, by hanging out talking, and
watching them get through that part. Oh and quick trips to the trampoline
outside helped, too.
I remember a youtube video of moms or grandmas playing video games; the
humor being they couldn't control their character very well. Their
children sat by them laughing and wanting to make the correct movements.
Everyone was laughing.
Jill
frustrated that he can't control his character or item very well yet?
Maybe see if there's a simple game on the xbox that gets a player used to
all the buttons on the controller, or cheer him on in the sense of 'hang in
there, honey, while you're fingers are getting used to the controller'.
Usually at the beginning of games there's a quick tutorial to see what
button goes to whatever action. My kids responded well to the idea that
they would "die" a lot while getting used to new videos games, and I would
share in their excitement at each new success, by hanging out talking, and
watching them get through that part. Oh and quick trips to the trampoline
outside helped, too.
I remember a youtube video of moms or grandmas playing video games; the
humor being they couldn't control their character very well. Their
children sat by them laughing and wanting to make the correct movements.
Everyone was laughing.
Jill
On 05 Jan 2014 09:31:03 -0800, <mranzer@...> wrote:
> My 7yo old son has been play on video games on portable devices and on
> the computer for awhile, and we just got him and xbox360 for Christmas.
>
> My husband and I help him if he asks, and watch him play.Hed
occasionally
> get frustrated when he got stuck or couldnt figure out games on the iPad
> or computer, but with the xbox, he has been crying a lot, sometimes
until
> he is shaking when he is frustrated. We look at walk-thrus on Youtube,
> that helps once he calms down. We comfort him and suggest taking a break
> and doing something else, which sometimes works. We love that he has so
> much fun playing the games, and want to help him through the upset.
Jo Isaac
If he's getting frustrated because he's stuck in a level, watch for that frustration building and ask if he needs help before he gets super frustrated and upset.
I can tell when Kai is starting getting frustrated in a level now by watching and listening closely (it's taken a bit of practice, on my part), and i'll ask him if he's stuck. If he is, i'll ask if he needs help with a you tube walkthrough yet. Sometimes he'll try on his own for a little while longer and see if he can figure it out, sometimes he'll ask to google the you tube right now.
Jo
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Ultimately he will get older , more mature and calmer about it if you yourself keep calm and help him from a very calm place.
Help him take a break, make sure he has had protein , food, drinks. On a calm day explain that taking a break can help his mind rest and be able to get past that later.
In a calm moment talk to him about taking deep breaths.
I remember asking about my son being upset about his games when he was that age.
It helped when I was calm,. It helped when I was helping him have enough food and drinks. It help me modeling taking deep breaths and taking a break when I am stuck gaming.
It helped the he got older and is more and more able to handle his frustrations and I absolutely understand getting very upset in a game.
I also always told my son that breaking stuff and being mean to people around were not acceptable ways to vent his frustration.
Funny thing now is that he blames his cat sometimes. He loves his cat! And she loves him. He blames her coming in and out of his room!
Then later when he is calm he apologizes to her!
Help him take a break, make sure he has had protein , food, drinks. On a calm day explain that taking a break can help his mind rest and be able to get past that later.
In a calm moment talk to him about taking deep breaths.
I remember asking about my son being upset about his games when he was that age.
It helped when I was calm,. It helped when I was helping him have enough food and drinks. It help me modeling taking deep breaths and taking a break when I am stuck gaming.
It helped the he got older and is more and more able to handle his frustrations and I absolutely understand getting very upset in a game.
I also always told my son that breaking stuff and being mean to people around were not acceptable ways to vent his frustration.
Funny thing now is that he blames his cat sometimes. He loves his cat! And she loves him. He blames her coming in and out of his room!
Then later when he is calm he apologizes to her!
Alex Polikowsky
<mranzer@...>
-=-First, don't compare this to the kind of frustration kids get when someone else is trying to force them to do something. He has the option to leave the game alone. He REALLY wants to figure it out. -=-
I hadn't looked at it that way. He does want to figure it out, and we will continue to support that.
-=-All those platforms use different hand devices or movements. Is he
frustrated that he can't control his character or item very well yet? -=-
He's great with the control of the joystick. His upset comes when he can't figure out how to get to the next point/level, etc. That's why the walk thru's are great. We watch them together, and then he cools off when he gets back to the game. It's just that there are times when he gets too upset to even look a the walk-thru.
I think Alex's take on it, as he get's older he'll handle it better/more mature is accurate.
-=-Oh and quick trips to the trampoline outside helped, too.-=-
We have a mini trampoline in our apartment, and he has jumped on it for breaks, good release.
He's so thoughtful and conversational about his feelings most of the time. He's better at expressing himself than many adults I know. I think it has created expectations at times for my husband and I that he is more mature than he is. We are both very mellow and patient, so when he expresses anger in ways we do not, it throws us sometimes, it took me a lot of work on myself to be as calm and happy as I am now at 50.
Meryl
Sandra Dodd
-=-I also always told my son that breaking stuff and being mean to people around were not acceptable ways to vent his frustration.
Funny thing now is that he blames his cat sometimes. He loves his cat! And she loves him. He blames her coming in and out of his room!
Then later when he is calm he apologizes to her! -=-
Funny thing now is that he blames his cat sometimes. He loves his cat! And she loves him. He blames her coming in and out of his room!
Then later when he is calm he apologizes to her! -=-
My oldest, Kirby, used to break remote controls. SNS (original) and SuperNintendo remotes were super strong, but when the N64 controllers came along they were more fragile, and Kirby broke THREE of them, getting mad and throwing them. They cost $30 apiece and so it would be a big deal, and much arguing and other kids being mad because Kirby had gotten mad. He was 11, 12.
Now he's 27, and a senior customer service rep for Blizzard Entertainment. He is professionally calm and calming. He helps 20 or 25 people be professionally calm and calming to players within World of Warcraft. He helps them get along better with each other, and be happier in their jobs.
Some of it is personality. Some calm he learned studying (and later teaching) karate. Some he learned working at a gaming store where he was the youngest employee for years, and dealt with all kinds of other people, and saw the benefits of thoughtful action, and the disadvantages of impatience and hot-headedness Some he learned from things we said about how he might avoid being so angry, or how he might want to do something besides throwing things.
He used to slam the door of his room, too. He used to park a little carelessly, when he was 17.
He's just rented the first place he found on his own (with a girlfriend, but not with the male roommate and co-worker he's lifed with for six+ years). He has a car he bought with his own money three or four years ago, and I don't think it has a scratch on it.
This report is brought as reassurance that frustration with games and hot-headedness and "a bad temper" can be part of learning how to be patient and sweet tempered, if parents can be helpful and if the child/teen/person is analytical and self-aware.
Howard Gardner's work suggests some people will be naturally better at that than others.
It would be intrapersonal intelligence (knowing oneself) and, partly, interpersonal (reading and understanding other people).
Sandra
Gwen Montoya
Can you read ahead (in the walk thrus), so when he gets stuck you can give him a little direction? Like a hint?
Gwen
On Jan 5, 2014, at 7:12 PM, <mranzer@...> wrote:
upset comes when he can't figure out how to get to the next point/level, etc. That's why the walk thru's are great. We watch them together, and then he cools off when he gets back to the game. It's just that there are times when he gets too upset to even look a the walk-thru.
Jacqueline Pirtle
Thank you for sharing Kirby's story Sandra!
I just read it and needed to hear that today! That reassurance about hot-headedness and "a bad temper" was just what I needed.
Happy Sunday to everyone,
Jacqueline
On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 6:51 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
-=-I also always told my son that breaking stuff and being mean to people around were not acceptable ways to vent his frustration.
Then later when he is calm he apologizes to her! -=-
Funny thing now is that he blames his cat sometimes. He loves his cat! And she loves him. He blames her coming in and out of his room!
My oldest, Kirby, used to break remote controls. SNS (original) and SuperNintendo remotes were super strong, but when the N64 controllers came along they were more fragile, and Kirby broke THREE of them, getting mad and throwing them. They cost $30 apiece and so it would be a big deal, and much arguing and other kids being mad because Kirby had gotten mad. He was 11, 12.Now he's 27, and a senior customer service rep for Blizzard Entertainment. He is professionally calm and calming. He helps 20 or 25 people be professionally calm and calming to players within World of Warcraft. He helps them get along better with each other, and be happier in their jobs.Some of it is personality. Some calm he learned studying (and later teaching) karate. Some he learned working at a gaming store where he was the youngest employee for years, and dealt with all kinds of other people, and saw the benefits of thoughtful action, and the disadvantages of impatience and hot-headedness Some he learned from things we said about how he might avoid being so angry, or how he might want to do something besides throwing things.He used to slam the door of his room, too. He used to park a little carelessly, when he was 17.He's just rented the first place he found on his own (with a girlfriend, but not with the male roommate and co-worker he's lifed with for six+ years). He has a car he bought with his own money three or four years ago, and I don't think it has a scratch on it.This report is brought as reassurance that frustration with games and s can be part of learning how to be patient and sweet tempered, if parents can be helpful and if the child/teen/person is analytical and self-aware.Howard Gardner's work suggests some people will be naturally better at that than others.It would be intrapersonal intelligence (knowing oneself) and, partly, interpersonal (reading and understanding other people).Sandra
<plaidpanties666@...>
My daughter sometimes gets so frustrated with a game she's in tears, saying it's too hard, she'll never get it, she can't do it. It doesn't help to offer encouragement - it only seems to upset her more, she doesn't want encouragement, she wants someone to understand that she's doing something really, really challenging and is having a hard time. Sometimes having a walkthrough or a cheat will help - but not always. Sometimes she's deliberately playing on a harder setting, trying to get a faster speed or better score. Eventually she calms down and usually makes whatever leap she needed in the game to move on - the peak of frustration is a sign she's Almost there, she's at the steepest part of the learning curve, and once she's over the top, she'll be fine. And by now she knows it too - she may still storm off to cry about it, but she also knows she'll get there.
Watching kids play video games is amazing. Next time someone tells you that kids won't Ever do Anything challenging or dull or strenuous unless they're pushed and trained and coerced to do so, think about the way your kid plays video games.
---In [email protected], <mranzer@...> wrote:My 7yo old son has been play on video games on portable devices and on the computer for awhile, and we just got him and xbox360 for Christmas.My husband and I help him if he asks, and watch him play.He'd occasionally get frustrated when he got stuck or couldn't figure out games on the iPad or computer, but with the xbox, he has been crying a lot, sometimes until he is shaking when he is frustrated. We look at walk-thrus on Youtube, that helps once he calms down. We comfort him and suggest taking a break and doing something else, which sometimes works.We love that he has so much fun playing the games, and want to help him through the upset.Can anyone offer other ways they have handled situations like this?Thanks,Meryl
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Watching kids play video games is amazing. Next time someone tells you that kids won't Ever do Anything challenging or dull or strenuous unless they're pushed and trained and coerced to do so, think about the
way your kid plays video games. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Absolutley!!!!!!!!
Another thing gamers will do it boring tasks in order to power up or collect a certain item they will need to advance/have more power/fight a boss successfully.
Video gamers even have a name for it! It is called "grind" or "grinding" .
So if people think unschoolers will not do those boring things they do not want because they were not made to do them those same unschooling gamers are already doing it everyday!
So if people think unschoolers will not do those boring things they do not want because they were not made to do them those same unschooling gamers are already doing it everyday!
I just beat the last boss to Super Paper Mario for the second time I finish the game , last time was 5-6 years ago.
Now I am doing extras and side quests. Finished a few easy ones but I now need to power up and get lots of coins do do the others.
So I need to go back into the levels to collect coins and kill enemies so I power up. For me it is fun but it can also be boring too but I am going to do it! :)
Now I am doing extras and side quests. Finished a few easy ones but I now need to power up and get lots of coins do do the others.
So I need to go back into the levels to collect coins and kill enemies so I power up. For me it is fun but it can also be boring too but I am going to do it! :)
I have seen my son do that so many times! There is no such think as unschoolers choosing to quit something they, like because of the boring and hard parts, because we never made them do them !!!!!!!!
Alex Polikowsky
Sandra Dodd
I just came across something I wrote in 2005, when Kirby was nearly 19 years old:
Kirby was explosive, when he was younger. Kirby is not a BIT explosive now. He is the most patient and clear-thinking person in the family, in frustrating situations. Partly, circumstances were frustrating for him, going from being an only child to having two younger siblings. Partly, we helped him find ways to notice and cope. We paid more attention to making sure he wasn't getting too hungry, or wasn't feeling too powerless. To say "Kirby is explosive" is false. To say I had an explosive child is true.
It was part of this longer piece of writing, at a message board that's gone now:
_____________________
One problem with labels is that human states are very often transitory. A child might have good reason to be bad tempered because of circumstances or undiscovered ailment or growth pains (literal pain in joints from quick growth, or teething, or headaches).
Kirby was explosive, when he was younger. Kirby is not a BIT explosive now. He is the most patient and clear-thinking person in the family, in frustrating situations. Partly, circumstances were frustrating for him, going from being an only child to having two younger siblings. Partly, we helped him find ways to notice and cope. We paid more attention to making sure he wasn't getting too hungry, or wasn't feeling too powerless. To say "Kirby is explosive" is false. To say I had an explosive child is true.
Our friend Lilly was so shy as a young child that even though she had seen us at several LLL meetings and played with Kirby there, for her first two visits at our house, she didn't leave her mother's lap. She wasn't a baby; she was four or so. The third time she went six feet away and played. The fourth time and forever after, her mom could leave. It was good that her mom was cool about staying. Lilly is 20 now. She is not in the least bit shy. Lilly is not a shy person. Lilly was a shy person.
The real danger is "gifted." "Gifted" is a point on a curve, and curves are not constant, nor predictable. An early reader is no more likely to become a Shakespeare professor or lawyer than an early walker is to become an olympic gold medalist. Labelling a child "gifted" is not a gift at all.
Unschooling works the same way regardless of any of those factors. If the child is allowed to sit with mom or walk across the room, read or not read without pressure or fanfare, walk or not walk as he wishes, if his environment is kept comfortable (taking his personality, fears, needs into account when arranging his comfort) and if he has the means and encouragement and time and space to explore his ever-expanding world, he will learn.
If we split the unschooling group into parents of early readers and parents of later readers, would there be an advantage to that?
While it can be reassuring for parents to know they're not the only one, labels can be limiting.
Sandra Dodd
____________________end of quote______________
Kirby was explosive, when he was younger. Kirby is not a BIT explosive now. He is the most patient and clear-thinking person in the family, in frustrating situations. Partly, circumstances were frustrating for him, going from being an only child to having two younger siblings. Partly, we helped him find ways to notice and cope. We paid more attention to making sure he wasn't getting too hungry, or wasn't feeling too powerless. To say "Kirby is explosive" is false. To say I had an explosive child is true.
It was part of this longer piece of writing, at a message board that's gone now:
_____________________
One problem with labels is that human states are very often transitory. A child might have good reason to be bad tempered because of circumstances or undiscovered ailment or growth pains (literal pain in joints from quick growth, or teething, or headaches).
Kirby was explosive, when he was younger. Kirby is not a BIT explosive now. He is the most patient and clear-thinking person in the family, in frustrating situations. Partly, circumstances were frustrating for him, going from being an only child to having two younger siblings. Partly, we helped him find ways to notice and cope. We paid more attention to making sure he wasn't getting too hungry, or wasn't feeling too powerless. To say "Kirby is explosive" is false. To say I had an explosive child is true.
Our friend Lilly was so shy as a young child that even though she had seen us at several LLL meetings and played with Kirby there, for her first two visits at our house, she didn't leave her mother's lap. She wasn't a baby; she was four or so. The third time she went six feet away and played. The fourth time and forever after, her mom could leave. It was good that her mom was cool about staying. Lilly is 20 now. She is not in the least bit shy. Lilly is not a shy person. Lilly was a shy person.
The real danger is "gifted." "Gifted" is a point on a curve, and curves are not constant, nor predictable. An early reader is no more likely to become a Shakespeare professor or lawyer than an early walker is to become an olympic gold medalist. Labelling a child "gifted" is not a gift at all.
Unschooling works the same way regardless of any of those factors. If the child is allowed to sit with mom or walk across the room, read or not read without pressure or fanfare, walk or not walk as he wishes, if his environment is kept comfortable (taking his personality, fears, needs into account when arranging his comfort) and if he has the means and encouragement and time and space to explore his ever-expanding world, he will learn.
If we split the unschooling group into parents of early readers and parents of later readers, would there be an advantage to that?
While it can be reassuring for parents to know they're not the only one, labels can be limiting.
Sandra Dodd
____________________end of quote______________
janine davies
Just wanted to say thank you too for sharing Kirby's story.
My eldest son (11) who is an explosive child had already taken a shine to Kirby from me reading essays from 'moving a puddle' to him - he picked it up and said it looked interesting, he chooses the essay for me to read to him and has been saying Kirby is his favourite. So it has been wonderful to read him these last two emails from you in reference to Kirby having been an explosive child - and 'not a bit explosive now', and the remote control incidents (we have a similar story), and he is so impressed by Kirbys job too and just kept saying very excitedly 'mum that it such a cool job', and he must be so amazing to do that job. As we have only been unschooling for 10months after mainstream school for 4yrs then steiner for 1yr he has taken a while to deschool and still speaks schoolishly at times , and he talks a lot about his frustrations and anger, and asks for help and reassurance that he won't be so explosively frustrated when he is older ,so it really has been a big leap forward in confidence for him to have read about kirby, and the combination of your helping him, him helping himself, and your unschooling life, he is so much more reassured and confident about unschooling now (He was very unhappy and hated school from the beginning but it has left its mark of making him think he won't do as 'well' with out it) but this has helped irradiate the last remnants of insecurity it seems, and he has been talking big dreams again! and particularly because Kirby has the best job in the world and he has never been to school - Kirby is now known in our house as the 'coolest unschooled kid ever' in my sons opinion.
Thank you.
Ps. Back in one of the threads a teen unschooling book that has reached cult status was mentioned - is it 'The teenage liberation handbook' ?
To: [email protected]
From: Sandra@...
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 17:22:01 -0700
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Video games and upset
I just came across something I wrote in 2005, when Kirby was nearly 19 years old:
Kirby was explosive, when he was younger. Kirby is not a BIT explosive now. He is the most patient and clear-thinking person in the family, in frustrating situations. Partly, circumstances were frustrating for him, going from being an only child to having two younger siblings. Partly, we helped him find ways to notice and cope. We paid more attention to making sure he wasn't getting too hungry, or wasn't feeling too powerless. To say "Kirby is explosive" is false. To say I had an explosive child is true.
It was part of this longer piece of writing, at a message board that's gone now:
_____________________
One problem with labels is that human states are very often transitory. A child might have good reason to be bad tempered because of circumstances or undiscovered ailment or growth pains (literal pain in joints from quick growth, or teething, or headaches).
Kirby was explosive, when he was younger. Kirby is not a BIT explosive now. He is the most patient and clear-thinking person in the family, in frustrating situations. Partly, circumstances were frustrating for him, going from being an only child to having two younger siblings. Partly, we helped him find ways to notice and cope. We paid more attention to making sure he wasn't getting too hungry, or wasn't feeling too powerless. To say "Kirby is explosive" is false. To say I had an explosive child is true.
Our friend Lilly was so shy as a young child that even though she had seen us at several LLL meetings and played with Kirby there, for her first two visits at our house, she didn't leave her mother's lap. She wasn't a baby; she was four or so. The third time she went six feet away and played. The fourth time and forever after, her mom could leave. It was good that her mom was cool about staying. Lilly is 20 now. She is not in the least bit shy. Lilly is not a shy person. Lilly was a shy person.
The real danger is "gifted." "Gifted" is a point on a curve, and curves are not constant, nor predictable. An early reader is no more likely to become a Shakespeare professor or lawyer than an early walker is to become an olympic gold medalist. Labelling a child "gifted" is not a gift at all.
Unschooling works the same way regardless of any of those factors. If the child is allowed to sit with mom or walk across the room, read or not read without pressure or fanfare, walk or not walk as he wishes, if his environment is kept comfortable (taking his personality, fears, needs into account when arranging his comfort) and if he has the means and encouragement and time and space to explore his ever-expanding world, he will learn.
If we split the unschooling group into parents of early readers and parents of later readers, would there be an advantage to that?
While it can be reassuring for parents to know they're not the only one, labels can be limiting.
Sandra Dodd
____________________end of quote______________
Kirby was explosive, when he was younger. Kirby is not a BIT explosive now. He is the most patient and clear-thinking person in the family, in frustrating situations. Partly, circumstances were frustrating for him, going from being an only child to having two younger siblings. Partly, we helped him find ways to notice and cope. We paid more attention to making sure he wasn't getting too hungry, or wasn't feeling too powerless. To say "Kirby is explosive" is false. To say I had an explosive child is true.
It was part of this longer piece of writing, at a message board that's gone now:
_____________________
One problem with labels is that human states are very often transitory. A child might have good reason to be bad tempered because of circumstances or undiscovered ailment or growth pains (literal pain in joints from quick growth, or teething, or headaches).
Kirby was explosive, when he was younger. Kirby is not a BIT explosive now. He is the most patient and clear-thinking person in the family, in frustrating situations. Partly, circumstances were frustrating for him, going from being an only child to having two younger siblings. Partly, we helped him find ways to notice and cope. We paid more attention to making sure he wasn't getting too hungry, or wasn't feeling too powerless. To say "Kirby is explosive" is false. To say I had an explosive child is true.
Our friend Lilly was so shy as a young child that even though she had seen us at several LLL meetings and played with Kirby there, for her first two visits at our house, she didn't leave her mother's lap. She wasn't a baby; she was four or so. The third time she went six feet away and played. The fourth time and forever after, her mom could leave. It was good that her mom was cool about staying. Lilly is 20 now. She is not in the least bit shy. Lilly is not a shy person. Lilly was a shy person.
The real danger is "gifted." "Gifted" is a point on a curve, and curves are not constant, nor predictable. An early reader is no more likely to become a Shakespeare professor or lawyer than an early walker is to become an olympic gold medalist. Labelling a child "gifted" is not a gift at all.
Unschooling works the same way regardless of any of those factors. If the child is allowed to sit with mom or walk across the room, read or not read without pressure or fanfare, walk or not walk as he wishes, if his environment is kept comfortable (taking his personality, fears, needs into account when arranging his comfort) and if he has the means and encouragement and time and space to explore his ever-expanding world, he will learn.
If we split the unschooling group into parents of early readers and parents of later readers, would there be an advantage to that?
While it can be reassuring for parents to know they're not the only one, labels can be limiting.
Sandra Dodd
____________________end of quote______________
Sandra Dodd
About Kirby and his ability to be calm, and his job, and unschooling, I have a few things.
I shared Janine's e-mail with him and he wrote, about her son, "This is really great. I'm happy for him to be more comfortable and confident with where he is. A big contributor to my calmness actually is from the breathing techniques you, and Sensei, taught me. To take a moment, several deep breaths, and assess what is frustrating me. I still forget to do it from time to time, but never for long and I can think rationally about whatever is going on."
Kirby's job didn't come directly from unschooling. Some jobs (like being a surgeon) REALLY require certain preparation and years of residency and training. But not everyone who goes to medical school becomes a surgeon, nor even a doctor. There are no guarantees, even with focussed training. Not every trained astronaut got to go into space.
So with a job like working at Blizzard, looking backwards through time, it seems partly luck—being in the right city at the right time and having friends who saw the opportunity arise and who knew Kirby and could say "hey, you might like this."
They thought he would like it because they had played games with him, in person, and online.
They were comfortable making the recommendation because they thought he was responsible and wouldn't screw it up.
So even among a big crowd of gamers, there will still be some the others respect and some they wouldn't think to recommend for a job. So personality is a factor, energy level, being friendly.
My other two kids don't have "impressive" jobs, though they've each had some cool jobs.
Unschoolers can avoid the negative aspects of school, but there are no "career paths" that come from it—just the chance (and parents need to help!) for them to know other people as a person, and not "as a student" or as a kid, from being out and about (with their family, or with other kids, or with other families) in situations where real things are happening (volunteer work, projects, social situations).
And Kirby might not always have an impressive job. How many big, impressive companies have flared up big and then wound down and folded, or been bought out? How many exciting electronic things have come and gone in the past thirty years!?
No guarantees.
Living lightly and calmly, and help your children be satisfied with simple things and find beauty in everyday objects and happenings. Be prepared to help them if you can.
Unschooling isn't simple, it's not small, it's a way to live.
-=- but this has helped irradiate the last remnants of insecurity it seems, and he has been talking big dreams again!-=-
Network, meet people, get out and about, find connections, and don't make him any promises.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=- Back in one of the threads a teen unschooling book that has reached cult status was mentioned - is it 'The teenage liberation handbook' ?-=-
The book is quite old now. :-)
But for people for whom the ideas are new, they are BIG and new.
Grace Llewellyn, the author, was not unschooled, and has run camps for unschooled teens for many years now. A few years ago, she adopted a baby who must be five or six now? (Someone here might know), so I'm assuming she's an unschooling parent now. :-)
Sandra
janine davies
Thank you Sandra & Kirby for your wonderful advice and insights.
I have been chatting with him about breathing as its the thing that helps me the most when getting uptight, angry or frustrated, he sees me take deep breaths and has asked me to talk it through with him counting and exhaling, and he used to do Karate so this will resonate well for him, and the taking a moment to think and assess, which he hasn't quite got his head round yet so to have this calming process straight from Kirby will be very useful indeed.
Your advice and insights about jobs is also very very helpful, I tell them all the stories that come from friends and fellow unschoolers and experiences I have read of successes in the job field without qualifications and how most have been from unusual paths and connections, I totally get helping them, being honest and not making promises. My eldest is a big fan of the 'Yogscast' and recently he asked if I thought it would be cool to write to them as a fan - I said yes of course I'm sure they would love that but advised that they may be so busy with their work that they may not reply, or if they do it may not be in persons - well he did write, and drew them a funny picture of them all eating jaffa cakes. Well bless them they wrote back and sent badges, and told him his picture is awesome and they put it on their office wall! This then gave my son the confidence to write back to thank them for the badges and ask them for a job when he is 16 and suggested they run weekend tours of their office and he could be the tour guide! He did seem quite insecure after he had sent it that he dared to ask such a thing, and he did not get a reply this second time - so we chatted about possibilities, and taking risks, having Gumption and the 'you never know element'. Personality and friendliness are good plus points and seemed to be the main decider with other unschooler job success experiences I have heard of, and we try to remind our sons every day how important it is to be true to themselves and to be themselves at all times. He knows this Yogscast job may never come off, but I think by reading more on how Kirbys job came about (and about holly & Marty) will be a big boost for him, and a reality check as you say - no guarantees, but also help him to get that this could well be how he gets to do what he loves.
>Unschooling isn't simple, its not small, its a way to live<
Its the biggest, most exciting, life changing thing that has ever happened to our family (along side chanting as a Nicheren Buddhist) and I am so passionate about it and excited for our futures - but fully realise that your amazing advice to Read a little, try a little, wait a little, watch, is priceless in this. Along with living lightly and calmly and helping them, and no promises. Thank you for these reminders also.
We live simply, and both my boys have a wonderful and touching sense of seeing beauty in everyday objects and happenings, and seeing that in my eldest at a very young age was my first moment of thinking I'm not sure school will be a good fit for him….
Janine.
To: [email protected]
From: Sandra@...
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 07:59:58 -0700
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Video games and upset
About Kirby and his ability to be calm, and his job, and unschooling, I have a few things.
I shared Janine's e-mail with him and he wrote, about her son, "This is really great. I'm happy for him to be more comfortable and confident with where he is. A big contributor to my calmness actually is from the breathing techniques you, and Sensei, taught me. To take a moment, several deep breaths, and assess what is frustrating me. I still forget to do it from time to time, but never for long and I can think rationally about whatever is going on."
Kirby's job didn't come directly from unschooling. Some jobs (like being a surgeon) REALLY require certain preparation and years of residency and training. But not everyone who goes to medical school becomes a surgeon, nor even a doctor. There are no guarantees, even with focussed training. Not every trained astronaut got to go into space.
So with a job like working at Blizzard, looking backwards through time, it seems partly luck—being in the right city at the right time and having friends who saw the opportunity arise and who knew Kirby and could say "hey, you might like this."
They thought he would like it because they had played games with him, in person, and online.
They were comfortable making the recommendation because they thought he was responsible and wouldn't screw it up.
So even among a big crowd of gamers, there will still be some the others respect and some they wouldn't think to recommend for a job. So personality is a factor, energy level, being friendly.
My other two kids don't have "impressive" jobs, though they've each had some cool jobs.
Unschoolers can avoid the negative aspects of school, but there are no "career paths" that come from it—just the chance (and parents need to help!) for them to know other people as a person, and not "as a student" or as a kid, from being out and about (with their family, or with other kids, or with other families) in situations where real things are happening (volunteer work, projects, social situations).
And Kirby might not always have an impressive job. How many big, impressive companies have flared up big and then wound down and folded, or been bought out? How many exciting electronic things have come and gone in the past thirty years!?
No guarantees.
Living lightly and calmly, and help your children be satisfied with simple things and find beauty in everyday objects and happenings. Be prepared to help them if you can.
Unschooling isn't simple, it's not small, it's a way to live.
-=- but this has helped irradiate the last remnants of insecurity it seems, and he has been talking big dreams again!-=-
Network, meet people, get out and about, find connections, and don't make him any promises.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-This then gave my son the confidence to write back to thank them for the badges and ask them for a job when he is 16 and suggested they run weekend tours of their office and he could be the tour guide! He did seem quite insecure after he had sent it that he dared to ask such a thing, and he did not get a reply this second time - so we chatted about possibilities, and taking risks, having Gumption and the 'you never know element'. -=-
That's sweet, though! And they won't forget his name, right? His picture is on the wall. :-)
I think something might come up someday, maybe indirectly, in a ricochet sort of way. :-)
Once (I think last winter in Albuquerque at Always Learning) I said (awkwardly in some Q&A situation) that a kid wasn't going to get a job from playing Pokemon but he would learn a lot, and Kirby, from across the room, said that he had a job from playing Pokemon.
DOH! OF COURSE HE DID! I must have been getting tired of thinking and talking when is aid that, because his first job at the card shop was absolutely and fully because he understood Pokemon, and played, and had already been volunteering to help and was reliable and honest and clear when he was 12 and 13 so as soon as he turned 14 they hired him to run the Pokemon tournaments on Saturday morning, and he worked there until he was 18.
It wasn't because he was unschooled, but it was because he was available, so that helped.
It wasn't because he was unschooled and available but because of those things he had hung out there and had the social skills to talk to adults, to make eye contact, to shake hands, to make appropriate jokes and comments. He had the chance to be himself and to show them skills and attributes. He was NOT doing it to get a job. He was doing it to be nice, to be friendly, because it was fun to help out there.
A friend of theirs was pressing Kirby about the possibility of getting a job there too, when they were 15ish. Kirby said that there was a regional Magic, the Gathering tournament coming up, they had rented another storefront just for that,and if Logan wanted to volunteer to help them all set up and to work that day, it would be a way for the owners to get to know him.
I was there.
Logan said "I'm not going to work for them for nothing."
Kirby kind of nodded, like it made sense, but clearly was thinking "there it is, then." What made sense was that Logan had no shot at getting a job there.
There are fairy tales like that, where someone who is generous is magically rewarded, and the other character who is selfish and impatient is punished.
Sandra
janine davies
That's sweet, though! And they won't forget his name, right? His picture is on the wall. :-)
I think something might come up someday too, and thats very sweet of you to say that.
The card shop job story and description of kirby's route and attributes to it is fantastic and inspiring, and my son loved it, especially as a fellow Pokemon DS player and card collector.
Your Fairy tale analogy is wonderful, and got a great 'oh yeah! thats so cool' reaction from my son.
Janine
To: [email protected]
From: Sandra@...
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 22:26:59 -0700
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Video games and upset
To: [email protected]
From: Sandra@...
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2014 22:26:59 -0700
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Video games and upset
-=-This then gave my son the confidence to write back to thank them for the badges and ask them for a job when he is 16 and suggested they run weekend tours of their office and he could be the tour guide! He did seem quite insecure after he had sent it that he dared to ask such a thing, and he did not get a reply this second time - so we chatted about possibilities, and taking risks, having Gumption and the 'you never know element'. -=-
That's sweet, though! And they won't forget his name, right? His picture is on the wall. :-)
I think something might come up someday, maybe indirectly, in a ricochet sort of way. :-)
Once (I think last winter in Albuquerque at Always Learning) I said (awkwardly in some Q&A situation) that a kid wasn't going to get a job from playing Pokemon but he would learn a lot, and Kirby, from across the room, said that he had a job from playing Pokemon.
DOH! OF COURSE HE DID! I must have been getting tired of thinking and talking when is aid that, because his first job at the card shop was absolutely and fully because he understood Pokemon, and played, and had already been volunteering to help and was reliable and honest and clear when he was 12 and 13 so as soon as he turned 14 they hired him to run the Pokemon tournaments on Saturday morning, and he worked there until he was 18.
It wasn't because he was unschooled, but it was because he was available, so that helped.
It wasn't because he was unschooled and available but because of those things he had hung out there and had the social skills to talk to adults, to make eye contact, to shake hands, to make appropriate jokes and comments. He had the chance to be himself and to show them skills and attributes. He was NOT doing it to get a job. He was doing it to be nice, to be friendly, because it was fun to help out there.
A friend of theirs was pressing Kirby about the possibility of getting a job there too, when they were 15ish. Kirby said that there was a regional Magic, the Gathering tournament coming up, they had rented another storefront just for that,and if Logan wanted to volunteer to help them all set up and to work that day, it would be a way for the owners to get to know him.
I was there.
Logan said "I'm not going to work for them for nothing."
Kirby kind of nodded, like it made sense, but clearly was thinking "there it is, then." What made sense was that Logan had no shot at getting a job there.
There are fairy tales like that, where someone who is generous is magically rewarded, and the other character who is selfish and impatient is punished.
Sandra
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<A friend of theirs was pressing Kirby about the possibility of getting a job there too, when they were 15ish. Kirby said that there was a regional Magic, the Gathering tournament coming up, they had rented another storefront just for that,and if Logan wanted to volunteer to help them all set up and to work that day, it would be a way for the owners
to get to know him.
I was there.
Logan said "I'm not going to work for them for nothing.">>>>>>>>>>>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Ah! It maybe that when parents are always saying things like "You won't get this if you don't do that" or when chores are connected to what kids get or their allowance that those kids cannot value or are able to work for the sake of learning something.
I have worked for free or almost nothing just to learn something. It is a pleasure to work at something you want to learn!
I can see unschooling kids choosing to work because they love something and want to learn, get into , be part of, what they love and want to know more about it!
I see Gigi applying for "jobs" on servers.
I see my son splitting wood just because he wants to get stronger, likes it and wants to get better at it.
It is like I have seen kids "grind" on video games to be able to get better, level up and acquire goods so they can beat and finish a game.
Like I remember cleaning dog poop so I could be around show dogs!
But if you grow up and is raised with the mentality that " Nothing is free in life" what does that do?
I have seen parents that for the kids to get more computer time they need to do chores.
Or for them to be taken to the pool they need to do this or that.
Alex Polikowsky
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Ah! It maybe that when parents are always saying things like "You won't get this if you don't do that" or when chores are connected to what kids get or their allowance that those kids cannot value or are able to work for the sake of learning something.
I have worked for free or almost nothing just to learn something. It is a pleasure to work at something you want to learn!
I can see unschooling kids choosing to work because they love something and want to learn, get into , be part of, what they love and want to know more about it!
I see Gigi applying for "jobs" on servers.
I see my son splitting wood just because he wants to get stronger, likes it and wants to get better at it.
It is like I have seen kids "grind" on video games to be able to get better, level up and acquire goods so they can beat and finish a game.
Like I remember cleaning dog poop so I could be around show dogs!
But if you grow up and is raised with the mentality that " Nothing is free in life" what does that do?
I have seen parents that for the kids to get more computer time they need to do chores.
Or for them to be taken to the pool they need to do this or that.
Alex Polikowsky
Virginia Warren
===
> I have seen parents that for the kids to get more computer time they need to do chores.===
> Or for them to be taken to the pool they need to do this or that.
I heard on a DVD commentary from one of my favorite creative types (Brendan Small) that his parents used to punish him by taking away his guitar.
I used to go to my local Radio Shack every day to use the computers; when my mom "grounded" me, that was where I was forbidden to go.
When parents find out what their kid likes and use it as "currency" to make the kid do other things, one result is the kid who wouldn't dream of letting their parents find out what they *really* like. Another is the kid who denies liking anything, to deny that power to those who would use it against him.
Virginia
Marina Moses
<<It wasn't because he was unschooled, but it was because he was available, so that helped.
It wasn't because he was unschooled and available but because of those things he had hung out there and had the social skills to talk to adults, to make eye contact, to shake hands, to make appropriate jokes and comments. He had the chance to be himself and to show them skills and attributes. He was NOT doing it to get a job. He was doing it to be nice, to be friendly, because it was fun to help out there.>>
My daughter didn't start dancing until she was 9. In the competitive dance world that's late. She loved it right away and was choreographing little pieces right away. By the time she was 11 she never wanted to leave the studio and since she didn't have to wake up for school I would let her hang out before and after her classes to watch. She got put to work as a helper for younger kids more often than most of the girls because she was there. At her studio you get a little break on tuition for helping in a class once a week-most of the advanced kids have a helper class. Chelsea helped in way more than one class even though there was no extra break. She is 18 and in her third year of teaching dance. She choreographs for competitions. She makes a great wage doing what she would do for free if they stopped paying her!
Sandra Dodd
I thought of something different here. I'm going to quote myself, and then take another tangent:
-=-as soon as he turned 14 they hired him to run the Pokemon tournaments on Saturday morning, and he worked there until he was 18.
It wasn't because he was unschooled, but it was because he was available, so that helped.
It wasn't because he was unschooled and available but because of those things he had hung out there and had the social skills to talk to adults, to make eye contact, to shake hands, to make appropriate jokes and comments. He had the chance to be himself and to show them skills and attributes. He was NOT doing it to get a job. He was doing it to be nice, to be friendly, because it was fun to help out there.
-=-
That job required him being there at 7:30 on Saturday morning. The Pokemon sessions ran from 8:00 to noon.
Four and a half hours a week is a pretty good first job. :-) They soon added Wednesday afternoon, and before he was 16, it was 30-40 hours a week, sometimes as early as 8:00 a.m. and sometimes as late as half an hour after midnight (closing up after a Friday or Saturday night Magic cards tournament or D&D session. When he turned 16 they gave him a key to the shop (the insurance company wouldn't insure someone younger than 16).
But about that first job, and whether it mattered that he was unschooled...
A kid who was in school five days a week and had been for nine or ten years might not have wanted to commit to getting up early SIX days a week. For Kirby, though, it was different, and exciting. He didn't mind.
And for a kid in school, a parent might hesitate about the lack of a sleeping-in day (especially a church-going family that was going to get him up on Sunday, for example, if Saturday was his only morning without an alarm clock). Some families might fear the lack of homework time. We didn't have those factors in the mix.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-When parents find out what their kid likes and use it as "currency" to make the kid do other things, one result is the kid who wouldn't dream of letting their parents find out what they *really* like. Another is the kid who denies liking anything, to deny that power to those who would use it against him.
-=-
That is a PRIME example of, and proof of, an adversarial relationship.
And that last part brought the faces of real people to my mind. And once a person claims alous several times to not like anything, that everything is stupid, and boring, it sticks. Their world becomes calcified, and gray, and they have separated themselves from joy.
Many adults are that way—cynical and pessimistic and negative, and they try to bring others down into their hole.
In those lives, there is not learning every day. Those people CAN learn nothing for a whole day.
That soul-sucking negativity can prevent unschooling from working. Some people are more susceptible to that contagion than others. Sometimes a kid with two negative parents can still live in color, if he can find other people to be around. For kids like that, school might easily be better than home.
When someone's off spouting that sunshiney "truth" about homeschooling and says home is always better than school, two things happen:
1) I want to say "depends on the home" [and I say it if I get the chance]
and
2) it makes the parents think that any home is as good as any other home. A crappy home with inatentive parents is as good as a warm, happy home where people are exploring and laughing.
Life can be better.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
TYPO REPAIR:
That is a PRIME example of, and proof of, an adversarial relationship.
And that last part brought the faces of real people to my mind. And once a person claims aloud several times to not like anything, that everything is stupid, and boring, it sticks. Their world becomes calcified, and gray, and they have separated themselves from joy.
(I had "alous" earlier and that was lousy.)