kirkpatrick clare

I was really struck by Alex's (I think) explanation of the need to identify and pick apart fears for unschooling to work. (Apologies if it was someone else's words - they've been swimming in my head for days but can't find them now to quote!).

So, I have a very real fear that comes up time and time again for me and my husband that I'd really love some help unpicking because I have known for a long time that it is harmful and causes more fears that I won't ever get to the bottom of it, or not 'in time' anyway. And it is this: My daughter's plumpness...and my own.

My ten year old daughter is plump. I think she is 'officially' just overweight. She also has low self-esteem often putting herself last and speaking unkind words about herself. Sometimes she is super confident and happy. Others she is not. She has started puberty early and she is a girl who has dreaded growing up. She doesn't wash very often and I wonder if part of this is not wanting to see her changing body. She sees her clothes say an older age in them than she actually is (ie. 11-12 instead of 10-11). Her three sisters are all very lean. She is a really lovely girl, who has obviously been affected by my own mental ill health over the years (which is now resolved...we are on healing the children now!).

My husband fears her plumpness and I do too. We are not sure if it is her future health we are worried about, her looks or her future self-esteem and sense of self-worth. Many plump women (myself included) frequently feel unhappy about the way they look...it makes me cry sometimes if I'm trying on clothes or getting ready for a special night out. Neither of us want that for her, but I'm not sure how to help her not learn that horrible trait when I can't unlearn it myself!

She eats an OK diet but is fairly sedentary and if there's a food she likes she'll eat masses of it...she refuses to eat completely if there's nothing she likes. I'm not sure she has a particularly healthy relationship with food. Like me she has never enjoyed being out of puff but I always thought I was put off sports by school but maybe not, now I see one of my daughters being the same. I now dance once or twice a week, but I'm rubbish at not over-eating. I have a psychological attachment to 'treat' foods I think because it's what we got when we went to visit my absent father, in particular McDonalds. Neither myself nor my daughter is obese. I am a size 12 (UK) but I'm only 5'1". I know rationally speaking we have nothing to worry about. We are both healthy.

Just to add, my husband is lean and fit and enjoys running. But he has low self-esteem. I don't have low self-esteem apart from about my weight. What a muddle! But it is so, so hard not to say 'don't eat any more' when she wants seconds...and thirds of pasta but I know the worst thing to do is to make food an issue...but it's an issue in our heads and she'll be picking that up even if we don't verbalise it. And I know the only way to stop it being in our heads is to dissolve the fear through examination of it (as we did with the tv and the computer)

I'm going to sit back this time (have learnt my lesson!) and read and digest slowly rather than keep replying (many thanks for your patience over the bedtime thing - have continued to read :)). I'm sure I am not the only mother for whom her own weight is an issue for her in her head and who worries that that issue may transfer itself to her daughters.

Thank you.

Sandra Dodd

-=-So, I have a very real fear that comes up time and time again for me and my husband that I'd really love some help unpicking because I have known for a long time that it is harmful and causes more fears that I won't ever get to the bottom of it, or not 'in time' anyway. And it is this: My daughter's plumpness...and my own.-=-

What would be different if she were in school?

Don't compare unschooling to an imagined fantasy perfection.  Compare unschooling in your family, in your circumstances, to SCHOOL with your family in your circumstances.   

For some families, school has advantages.

But now, and in years to come, rather than wondering whether unschooling can make life ideal, think of whether your choice to unschool has advantages over school-at-home or school itself.

It often happens that a parents is healed by doing better for her child than was done for her.


It sometimes happens that the parent is unable to do that.  I have a list of therapists and counsellors who understand unschooling sell, if you decide at some point that's what you need.  


We know—and professionals know—that limits and shame and diets, for children, are harmful.
There is a lot to read and think about here:


You can't make all your changes in one day.  You can't read all you might need to read in one sitting.

Read a little.
Try a little.
Wait a while.
Watch.

Don't make things worse.

Sandra


haydee deldenovese

Have you tried sharing with her about how you feel? About your own thoughts, about your own weight?  It may open up a discussion,  and you may be able to understand it from her perspective.
Also, I would suggest banana island. It would be something you both could do as a team, and then share with one another how you feel, and about the clarity of your minds. In the process, you both loose weight!
I am a raw foodist, and have been for almost a year. I was a bit plumped,  and that is why I tried it. Once I did, I got cleared. My thoughts got much more positive, I lost weight and took on the raw food lifestyle as my new journey. I am not asking for you to do the same, but I have been where you are and I understand your concerns about your daughter.  Maybe presenting banana island in a fun way, she would be up for it!
Now what is banana island?
Banana island is when you eat only bananas for an extended period. I have done it for two weeks at a time, and the very first time I did it I got a lot out of it. For people that have or may have an unhealthy relationship with food, banana island helps a lot. You can look up Dr. Douglas N. Graham. He does it with some of his patients to help with food situations.
Now, I know this is not a group for nutrition,  rather than unschooling, but I felt that little info could help.
Also you can look up Freele the banana girl. She was my inspiration. Seeing how plumped she was before she reached her current weight kept me on track. Also, I'm not sure if you are familiar with EFT, but that will help erase all your negative thoughts, freeing you both from over eating.
Best of luck
Haydee

On Dec 18, 2013 7:16 AM, "kirkpatrick clare" <clare.kirkpatrick@...> wrote:
 

I was really struck by Alex's (I think) explanation of the need to identify and pick apart fears for unschooling to work. (Apologies if it was someone else's words - they've been swimming in my head for days but can't find them now to quote!).

So, I have a very real fear that comes up time and time again for me and my husband that I'd really love some help unpicking because I have known for a long time that it is harmful and causes more fears that I won't ever get to the bottom of it, or not 'in time' anyway. And it is this: My daughter's plumpness...and my own.

My ten year old daughter is plump. I think she is 'officially' just overweight. She also has low self-esteem often putting herself last and speaking unkind words about herself. Sometimes she is super confident and happy. Others she is not. She has started puberty early and she is a girl who has dreaded growing up. She doesn't wash very often and I wonder if part of this is not wanting to see her changing body. She sees her clothes say an older age in them than she actually is (ie. 11-12 instead of 10-11). Her three sisters are all very lean. She is a really lovely girl, who has obviously been affected by my own mental ill health over the years (which is now resolved...we are on healing the children now!).

My husband fears her plumpness and I do too. We are not sure if it is her future health we are worried about, her looks or her future self-esteem and sense of self-worth. Many plump women (myself included) frequently feel unhappy about the way they look...it makes me cry sometimes if I'm trying on clothes or getting ready for a special night out. Neither of us want that for her, but I'm not sure how to help her not learn that horrible trait when I can't unlearn it myself!

She eats an OK diet but is fairly sedentary and if there's a food she likes she'll eat masses of it...she refuses to eat completely if there's nothing she likes. I'm not sure she has a particularly healthy relationship with food. Like me she has never enjoyed being out of puff but I always thought I was put off sports by school but maybe not, now I see one of my daughters being the same. I now dance once or twice a week, but I'm rubbish at not over-eating. I have a psychological attachment to 'treat' foods I think because it's what we got when we went to visit my absent father, in particular McDonalds. Neither myself nor my daughter is obese. I am a size 12 (UK) but I'm only 5'1". I know rationally speaking we have nothing to worry about. We are both healthy.

Just to add, my husband is lean and fit and enjoys running. But he has low self-esteem. I don't have low self-esteem apart from about my weight. What a muddle! But it is so, so hard not to say 'don't eat any more' when she wants seconds...and thirds of pasta but I know the worst thing to do is to make food an issue...but it's an issue in our heads and she'll be picking that up even if we don't verbalise it. And I know the only way to stop it being in our heads is to dissolve the fear through examination of it (as we did with the tv and the computer)

I'm going to sit back this time (have learnt my lesson!) and read and digest slowly rather than keep replying (many thanks for your patience over the bedtime thing - have continued to read :)). I'm sure I am not the only mother for whom her own weight is an issue for her in her head and who worries that that issue may transfer itself to her daughters.

Thank you.

Frantz Family

I have four daughters.  My second is plumper.  I think being at home and not having to deal with "mean girls" has helped her not to be overly conscious of her body.  We continually complement her on who she is rather than how she looks.  We do this for all our girls but she has point blank asked if she is pretty.  The words/love/smiles you pour into your daughter will go much farther in her self esteem than losing 20 pounds.

If it eases your mind I hit 140 pounds by age 13 and give or take 10 pounds have stayed that weight for 27 years.  Plumpness at a young age does not mean a lifetime of obesity.  A little plumpness is not near as unhealthy as an eating disorder.  Plumpness is way better than being unloved (by others or yourself).  A little plumpness is better than no body fat at all if you want to have children.  If you need to lose weight I suggest BOTH of you go out for walks.  Make it a special time to encourage her and listen to whatever she wants to talk about.

Margo

On 12/18/2013 3:24 AM, kirkpatrick clare wrote:
 
My ten year old daughter is plump. I think she is 'officially' just overweight.


My husband fears her plumpness and I do too. We are not sure if it is her future health we are worried about, her looks or her future self-esteem and sense of self-worth.

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY


<<<<<<<<<<<<My ten year old daughter is plump. I think she is 'officially' just overweight. She also has low self-esteem often putting herself last and speaking unkind words about herself. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And if she is like you she may always be. What is wrong with being curvy? Some men like curvy girls.

Do you speak unkind words about yourself? your body? Do you say out loud you are fat? Wish you thighs/belly/but was smaller?
Did you ever talk to her about moving more because she is "plump"? ( so telling her she needs fixing and is less than)


<<<<<<<<Sometimes she is super confident and happy. Others she is not. She has started puberty early and she is a girl who has dreaded growing up. She doesn't wash very often and I wonder if part of this is not wanting to see her changing body. She sees her clothes say an older age in them than she actually is (ie. 11-12 instead of 10-11). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Many kids don't like baths. They change. Kids go from hating baths to taking several a day. I seen so many times. I would not worry about that  but I would help her by getting her special soaps and things that are just for her . I do with my 11 year old. I also tell him when we go somewhere and he really needs a bath that he should take one and why. He does it. It is still his choice but he does not want to be stinky out in a get together.
I assume you saw my daughter's pictures on my blog. She is 7. I have to buy her  clothes size 10 because she is tall. Clothing size  varies too. Tell your daughter that. It is just an average number they use. It means nothing really.


<<<<<<<<<<<<Her three sisters are all very lean. >>>>>>>>>>>>

Please please please DO NOT compare. I grew up with a gorgeous sister. Comparisons hurt. They stay. It was not until I was in my older teens and there were this gorgeous guys that  thought I was much hotter than my sister that I came to understand that there were different types of beauty. Not everyone likes curly hair, tall, skinny, blond, green eyes, short, brunette, big breasted, long straight hair, curvy, ...... Start seeing the beauty in your daughter just as she is. Start seeing the beauty in YOU just as you are.



<<<<<<<<<<<She is a really lovely girl, who has obviously been affected by my own mental ill health over the years (which is now resolved...we are on healing the children now!).>>>>>>>>

And if they need professional help to heal completely please do it. Here are some great people that get unschooling and could help:

http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy


<<<<<<<<<<<My husband fears her plumpness and I do too. We are not sure if it is her future health we are worried about, her looks or her future self-esteem and sense of self-worth. Many plump women (myself included) frequently feel unhappy about the way they look...it makes me cry sometimes if I'm trying on clothes or getting ready for a special night out. Neither of us want that for her, but I'm not sure how to help her not learn that horrible trait when I can't unlearn it myself!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You are both still equating being thin to being happy , healthy and beautiful. I saw something awesome the other day. It was pictures of various athletes to compare bodies . They were all different. From plump to thin! Soft to muscular. All Olympic athletes!

She eats an OK diet but is fairly sedentary and if there's a food she likes she'll eat masses of it...she refuses to eat completely if there's nothing she likes. I'm not sure she has a particularly healthy relationship with food. Like me she has never enjoyed being out of puff but I always thought I was put off sports by school but maybe not, now I see one of my daughters being the same. I now dance once or twice a week, but I'm rubbish at not over-eating. I have a psychological attachment to 'treat' foods I think because it's what we got when we went to visit my absent father, in particular McDonalds. Neither myself nor my daughter is obese. I am a size 12 (UK) but I'm only 5'1". I know rationally speaking we have nothing to worry about. We are both healthy.

Just to add, my husband is lean and fit and enjoys running. But he has low self-esteem. I don't have low self-esteem apart from about my weight. What a muddle! But it is so, so hard not to say 'don't eat any more' when she wants seconds...and thirds of pasta but I know the worst thing to do is to make food an issue...but it's an issue in our heads and she'll be picking that up even if we don't verbalise it. And I know the only way to stop it being in our heads is to dissolve the fear through examination of it (as we did with the tv and the computer)

I'm going to sit back this time (have learnt my lesson!) and read and digest slowly rather than keep replying (many thanks for your patience over the bedtime thing - have continued to read :)). I'm sure I am not the only mother for whom her own weight is an issue for her in her head and who worries that that issue may transfer itself to her daughters.

Thank you.


BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Sorry I pressed something and it went before I was finished!  Here it is finished.

 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
 



<<<<<<<<<<<My husband fears her plumpness and I do too. We are not sure if it is her future health we are worried about, her looks or her future self-esteem and sense of self-worth. Many plump women (myself included) frequently feel unhappy about the way they look...it makes me cry sometimes if I'm trying on clothes or getting ready for a special night out. Neither of us want that for her, but I'm not sure how to help her not learn that horrible trait when I can't unlearn it myself!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You are both still equating being thin to being happy , healthy and beautiful. I saw something awesome the other day. It was pictures of various athletes to compare bodies . They were all different. From plump to thin! Soft to muscular. All Olympic athletes!

http://www.mymodernmet.com/profiles/blogs/howard-schatz-beverly-ornstein-athlete


<<<<<<<<<<<<She eats an OK diet but is fairly sedentary and if there's a food she likes she'll eat masses of it...she refuses to eat completely if there's nothing she likes. I'm not sure she has a particularly healthy relationship with food. Like me she has never enjoyed being out of puff but I always thought I was put off sports by school but maybe not, now I see one of my daughters being the same. I now dance once or twice a week, but I'm rubbish at not over-eating. I have a psychological attachment to 'treat' foods I think because it's what we got when we went to visit my absent father, in particular McDonalds. Neither myself nor my daughter is obese. I am a size 12 (UK) but I'm only 5'1". I know rationally speaking we have nothing to worry about. We are both healthy.>>>>>>>>>>>>

Stop seeing sizes. Dance for the joy of it and don't think about losing weight. Have at home all the food you love in abundance.
Have the foods your daughter likes a home. Offer a huge variety. Don't say anything about eating to her. Just bring her food. All kids, fruits, veggies, what she likes.  Offer lots of water and drinks ( I know I eat when I am thirsty!)

How can she look at herself and love herself if she is like you and you don;t like yourself???

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Just to add, my husband is lean and fit and enjoys running. But he has low self-esteem. I don't have low self-esteem apart from about my weight. What a muddle! But it is so, so hard not to say 'don't eat any more' when she wants seconds...and thirds of pasta but I know the worst thing to do is to make food an issue...but it's an issue in our heads and she'll be picking that up even if we don't verbalise it. And I know the only way to stop it being in our heads is to dissolve the fear through examination of it (as we did with the tv and the computer)>>>>>>>>>>>>


I am glad you are examining it. 

Love your daughter just like she is. Love yourself. Go out and get you some sexy clothes you feel good in it.    Don't try to look like anyone. Be your beautiful self. Show your daughter how beautiful you are and how to love your body. DO NOT complain about your body. I think that is the biggest mistake mothers do.
It is not Barbie that creates body issues in girls. It comes , most times, from their own mothers.

Alex Polikowsky

Clare Kirkpatrick

-=-
Please please please DO NOT compare. I -=-

Just to clarify: I don't ever compare them! I wasn't clear. I put that in because I she compares herself to them.


Sent from Samsung Mobile

Sandra Dodd

-=- I wonder if part of this is not wanting to see her changing body. She sees her clothes say an older age in them than she actually is (ie. 11-12 instead of 10-11)-=-

Don't count.  Don't measure.  Numbers aren't people.
And those numbers are so close, anyway.  VERY much the wrong directions, to be looking at numbers.

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY



 
<<<<<<<<<<<<Have you tried sharing with her about how you feel? About your own thoughts, about your own weight?  It may open up a discussion,  and you may be able to understand it from her perspective.
Also, I would suggest banana island. It would be something you both could do as a team, and then share with one another how you feel, and about the clarity of your minds. In the process, you both loose weight! >>>>>>>>>>>>


NO NO NO!!! that would be like telling her she needs to be fixed because being plump is bad. Kids should not go on diets to loose weight. Or told they are fat.

If she ever comes later in life and wants to do something then yes, be her partner and help her and support her. Doing together is great!
But to share with her 10 year old her thoughts about her being plump and how they can fix it I think that is a bad bad idea.

The mother does not love her body why pass that on?
 

Alex Polikowsky

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY


<<<<If it eases your mind I hit 140 pounds by age 13 and give or take 10 pounds have stayed that weight for 27 years.  Plumpness at a young age does not mean a lifetime of obesity.  A little plumpness is not near as unhealthy as an eating disorder.  Plumpness is way better than being unloved (by others or yourself).  A little plumpness is better than no body fat at all if you want to have children.  If you need to lose weight I suggest BOTH of you go out for walks.  Make it a special time to encourage her and listen to whatever she wants to talk about.
>>>>>>

I like that! I also think going for a walk for the sake of being together and enjoying, not with the intention of losing weight should be the reason!

Alex Polikowsky

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Look at this beautiful women:
https://www.google.com/search?q=curvy+is+beautiful&client=firefox&hs=bUi&rls=com.yahoo:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=qe6xUo-iLqrwyAHpn4GQBA&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=589
They do not need diets. They are gorgeous.

http://beautifulcurvywomen.tumblr.com/

To the mom!
Learn to love yourself and pass that on to your daughter!

 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


Joyce Fetteroll


On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:43 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:

Kids should not go on diets to loose weight.

Prepubescent kids often do plump up to gear up for a growth spurt. It would be like putting a new baby on a diet.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-Have you tried sharing with her about how you feel? About your own thoughts, about your own weight?  It may open up a discussion,  and you may be able to understand it from her perspective. -=-

Burdening a child with a parent's 30-year-old baggage picked up from people born 60, 70, 80 years ago is NOT a good first move.

Sandra Dodd

-=-Just to clarify: I don't ever compare them! I wasn't clear. I put that in because I she compares herself to them.-=-

To help you be more honest in your thinking, you compared them to a few thousand strangers, in public, on a site that has a 12-year-old archive.

Thoughts matter.  Even thoughts.

Before something is shared on the internet (or anywhere) a person should make several conscious, thoughtful decisions.   What to say?  In what words?  Exactly what words?  To what audience and for what purpose?  


Sandra

Nancy

I made a very conscious decision to NOT say anything disparaging about my body, or anyone's body once I had children. If I hear my friends do it about themselves, I ask them to stop immediately, and not do it around me. I told my dad last week that I dont allow body mocking in my house, because he was making some negative jokes about himself. He stopped.

It does not matter if you are fat or thin, disparaging, mocking, complaining or really, commenting in any negative way, about ones body, does no one any good.
And it usually hurts.

I have a display of several years of family photographs in my hallway. My mother made a comment, "look, each year you got fatter and fatter". She said it very matter of factly. Its true. I did gain weight almost every year. I did get fat. It still really hurt that THAT is what my mother noticed and said to me. She could have said anything else about my cute kids, my awesome hairstyles, she could have said that the love we share is obvious in our smiles, and yet, to her, all that matters is my size.

Reducing people to the number of lbs they weigh or the size of their clothes is demeaning. Its hurtful. and its silly! 

with regard to your daughters clothing size: I wear a size 22. I am not 22. Should I wear a size 40? the number a clothing manufacturer uses to sell their clothes is somewhat arbitrary, is different depending on many factors, including intended age of wearer, what time period the clothes were made, designers, shops, etc etc. You can calmly point all that out to your daughter. 

I know that it can be difficult to get past ones own baggage to see their children clearly. If I start to feel down about my shape and size, I go read here:
 http://danceswithfat.wordpress.com/blog/ for some positivity and reality checks. 

Both my children were very thin for the first 5 years. Very very slim. I still made every effort not to "praise" their slimness nor comment on that very much, although other people did, and it was probably considered a good thing. When my daughter turned 7 she put on a lot of weight. She got a solid middle. She grew many inches and now, at almost 10, she is very tall, has large feet, and while she is not slim, she doesnt look as plump as she did. She is growing in her own way. She thinks she looks great and loves fashion and clothes and makes her own designs and likes to model them and take photos of them. She has body confidence and self confidence. She enjoys going to the trampoline place, to they gymnastic center, loves to swim. She is pretty unselfconscious in a swimsuit. 

Appearances matter. I try to help my daughter understand what people will think if she wears dirty or smelly clothing, for example. I want her to feel attractive and healthy and confident. She makes jewelry and wears it. She does up her hair and enjoys that. There is so much more to focus on, experience and enjoy than what a scale says or what the tag says. 

I know people can get very hung up on food, health, nutrition, etc. but I think the bottom line is not whether your child is fat, plump, skinny, ill or well, it is how you treat them and how you help them navigate their lives in a positive, peaceful way.


Nancy

Zibby age 9
Henry age 6







sherryfranklin150@...

I agree. Please, please, please do not even bring it up. And, no diet is good for any child especially one that focuses on only one food group.

I am learning to stop bashing my own body in front of my children. It is hard. Really hard, but if that's what you do then that might be a place to start. It takes a conscious effort.

I have the opposite problem. My daughter is Chinese, 9 years old and super thin. You can see all of the bones in her spine and when you pick her up you feel like you are going to crush her. She stands in front of the mirror admiring how thin she is. Look how skinny I am, Mom? It makes me crazy. So, in our house the focus is on talking about being healthy when it comes up. I don't make a point of talking about it though.

Sherry


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>;
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>;
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Plumpness
Sent: Wed, Dec 18, 2013 6:43:12 PM

 



 
<<<<<<<<<<<<Have you tried sharing with her about how you feel? About your own thoughts, about your own weight?  It may open up a discussion,  and you may be able to understand it from her perspective.
Also, I would suggest banana island. It would be something you both could do as a team, and then share with one another how you feel, and about the clarity of your minds. In the process, you both loose weight! >>>>>>>>>>>>


NO NO NO!!! that would be like telling her she needs to be fixed because being plump is bad. Kids should not go on diets to loose weight. Or told they are fat.

If she ever comes later in life and wants to do something then yes, be her partner and help her and support her. Doing together is great!
But to share with her 10 year old her thoughts about her being plump and how they can fix it I think that is a bad bad idea.

The mother does not love her body why pass that on?
 

Alex Polikowsky

Joyce Fetteroll

Rather than focusing on what you perceive as wrong with your daughter -- whether it be her weight or her attitude -- focus on what you can change about yourself and about the home life you provide. Don't try to fix her. She is who she is right now as part of her becoming who she will become. Sometimes the in-between stages are awkward as kids try to adjust to and make sense of changes. She's trying out ideas now. She's discovering what feels right about those ideas and what feels wrong.

Create a home life you believe in. Live the values you believe in. Create a safe, respectful environment for others to explore what they value.

If you think it's important for family members to be critical of others and notice their flaws, then be that. It won't work well with unschooling! But be that if that's a value you want your daughter to experience and perhaps adopt for herself.

If having more healthful food is important to you, bring that into the home. Cook meals that your family likes that are more healthful. But do it because that's what you want to provide for your family.

And then let each family member add what they enjoy or want to try to that foundation. Let her choose what she wants to eat. If she asks for a bag of Fritos, get her Fritos. If she wants 3rd helpings of pasta, smile and say "Sure!"

If having a more active lifestyle is important, add more activity into your lives. But choose activities because they're fun not because your daughter is plump or because you don't like your weight. Choose activities everyone enjoys not to get them to change but because you love doing things with your family.

She can't discover that something that initially feels right doesn't work in the long run if you take her choice away. She can't discover that other choices will work better for her if there aren't other choices in her life that are drawing to her.

Joyce

<cheri.tilford@...>

I've enjoyed this discussion, and wanted to add my two cents.  


first, I noticed in the original post that it is never stated that the daughter is concerned about her size, weight, or health.  it is stated she has low self esteem.  is the mom connecting the low self esteem with the weight because that makes sense to her, or is that what the daughter has expressed?  is this a concern that mom, dad, and daughter share, or just mom and dad? 


mental filters are crucial here.  mom's got a mental filter that sees negativity and fear in "fat" (plumpness is a euphemism) and imperfect bodies.  what in the world is a perfect body?  in my opinion, it's a vehicle that allows for worldly experiences.  are there experiences the daughter can't enjoy because of physical issues?  for instance, it's helpful to be fit enough to breathe easily during active play.  does she enjoy the way her body carries her through the world?  is her low self esteem (does she say low self esteem or is that mom's diagnosis?) connected to her body?  could it be a natural response to the often confusing and tumultuous time of beginning puberty?


every body has a unique biochemistry with different food and activity needs.  for me personally, I do quite well with a high fat diet.  I prefer to be still often, I loathe "exercise" for the sake of sweating (though I love walking or other useful activities) and I'm a moody eater, which means if I don't eat whatever food I'm wanting, I don't feel satisfied and will keep eating.  I have learned this about myself after years of unkind thoughts and behaviors directed at my body in an attempt to fit an ideal shape that did not agree with the natural shape and size of my hips and butt.  


my mom has never been fat.  but she comments and complains every time she feels like she's getting a little soft in the middle, or the jeans she's had for 30 years are a bit snug.  my weight easily fluctuates up and down 5-10 pounds depending on the season.  my mom always comments about how nice I look in my thinner range. she gave me her body issues without meaning to. I actually feel more comfortable with a few extra pounds of softness.  I feel more feminine when I'm soft.   

I make a point to not ever disparage my body in front of my daughter, who is almost 3.  we marvel at the differences in body parts and functions, we talk about how good it feels to stretch, jump, climb, sit on laps, rest on the couch.  I trust in the wisdom of her body and I help her get the food she wants when she wants it.  right now she's eating ice cream right out of the tub for breakfast.  I've noticed her fat consumption increases right before growth, and after a week of ice cream for breakfast, we'll see a leap in her language usage (for instance).  I don't want to screw up that beautiful knowing. 

I want her to make choices based on knowing and trusting herself, not based on a worry or fear of how others (especially I) will judge her.  the best part about not being negative about my body for her sake?  I've fallen in love with my form in a way I completely lost as a teenager.  what a gift!

examine the lens through which you see the world.  that's the only thing that needs fixing. 


cheri

Gwen Montoya

My girls have always grown out a little and then grown up (taller).

Puberty packs a wallop (hormones, body changes, emotional changes...it is really big jumble of a bunch of stuff happening all at once!)

As for sizes - try buying jeans at a thrift store! Each company makes its own size. A 10 in one size may be a 12 in another and an 8 in another. Plus - everyone's body is shaped differently. Wider hips, longer legs, narrow waist...everyone is different!

Gwen




On Dec 18, 2013, at 11:02 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:


On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:43 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:

Kids should not go on diets to loose weight.

Prepubescent kids often do plump up to gear up for a growth spurt. It would be like putting a new baby on a diet.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-My girls have always grown out a little and then grown up (taller).-=-

My boys did that, too, both of them.  As adults in their mid-20s it comes and goes a bit, too (less now), depending on season and activities.  

<saralouwho@...>

I would definitely encourage you to work on the way you see yourself.  I, too, come from a mother with extremely negative self concepts, and I can tell you that no matter what your size, they rub off.  I was quite thin until I had my second child, and had a horrible self image all my life.  These judgments rub off no matter your size, because we're making a statement, in often very subtle ways, in other not-so-subtle ways, that a woman's worth and happiness are dependent on what she looks like.  That there are objectively beautiful bodies, and objectively ugly bodies.   I realized about 7 years ago that my poor self image was not dependent on what I looked like, and I started to work on that.  I'm not anywhere near where I want to be in the end, but I've come a long way.  There are many books on the subject, and therapy is a wonderful idea.  


I had one very important realization that I have to keep reminding myself of.  I don't have negative views about myself because I'm fat.  I have them because I was taught to have them by family and by culture.  During moments of self-criticizing, when I'm hating something about my appearance and blaming it on fat,  I'll realize that I've always hated on that aspect of myself.  It's not something new.  It's not something I started bashing on since I gained weight.   I've always done it, at least off and on.  


When you start to make progress, when you start to realize fat isn't a problem, you realize the problem is your viewpoint, which you can change.  It takes a lot of hard work, but you can change.   And you have to change, because if you see weight as a problem, you will inevitably look at your daughter through that lens.  You and your daughter and the rest of your children can feel great about yourselves and each other, regardless of size, regardless of looks.  


I love the idea of being open with your daughter about your own struggles in a way that doesn't blame fat.  Make an effort to admire all sorts of figures.  Admire them out loud.  Admire the diversity which the human form comes in.  Put pictures up of women you admire for reasons other than their looks.  Have books with pictures of all sorts of women's bodies, bodies that aren't airbrushed.  Admire them with your daughter.  There are lots of books for daughters to help them love themselves inside and out.  Read one with your daughter.  Spend time in front of the mirror without your clothes on.  Admire yourself.  Find something, anything to admire about the parts of your body your normally bash on.    Those are just a few of the ideas you'll come across in the wonderful books that are out there on this subject.  

Heather

Here is a blog that might interest you (or others reading here).

The author is here in Tucson where I live & she's been getting a lot of media attention for her writing.
Here is a tiny bit - 

You're not stunning despite your body. You're stunning because of your body. There is a distinct difference. I grew up in a culture that would deem "unattractive" women as "special spirits". A degrading categorization that implied that the only thing worthwhile was whatever was inside. Well, yeah. We are all much much more than our bodies, but our bodies are a beautiful part of us too. Beauty comes from the inside AND the outside....



On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 2:03 PM, <saralouwho@...> wrote:
 

I would definitely encourage you to work on the way you see yourself.  I, too, come from a mother with extremely negative self concepts, and I can tell you that no matter what your size, they rub off.  I was quite thin until I had my second child, and had a horrible self image all my life.  These judgments rub off no matter your size, because we're making a statement, in often very subtle ways, in other not-so-subtle ways, that a woman's worth and happiness are dependent on what she looks like.  That there are objectively beautiful bodies, and objectively ugly bodies.   I realized about 7 years ago that my poor self image was not dependent on what I looked like, and I started to work on that.  I'm not anywhere near where I want to be in the end, but I've come a long way.  There are many books on the subject, and therapy is a wonderful idea.  


I had one very important realization that I have to keep reminding myself of.  I don't have negative views about myself because I'm fat.  I have them because I was taught to have them by family and by culture.  During moments of self-criticizing, when I'm hating something about my appearance and blaming it on fat,  I'll realize that I've always hated on that aspect of myself.  It's not something new.  It's not something I started bashing on since I gained weight.   I've always done it, at least off and on.  


When you start to make progress, when you start to realize fat isn't a problem, you realize the problem is your viewpoint, which you can change.  It takes a lot of hard work, but you can change.   And you have to change, because if you see weight as a problem, you will inevitably look at your daughter through that lens.  You and your daughter and the rest of your children can feel great about yourselves and each other, regardless of size, regardless of looks.  


I love the idea of being open with your daughter about your own struggles in a way that doesn't blame fat.  Make an effort to admire all sorts of figures.  Admire them out loud.  Admire the diversity which the human form comes in.  Put pictures up of women you admire for reasons other than their looks.  Have books with pictures of all sorts of women's bodies, bodies that aren't airbrushed.  Admire them with your daughter.  There are lots of books for daughters to help them love themselves inside and out.  Read one with your daughter.  Spend time in front of the mirror without your clothes on.  Admire yourself.  Find something, anything to admire about the parts of your body your normally bash on.    Those are just a few of the ideas you'll come across in the wonderful books that are out there on this subject.  




--
Heather Mclean

<noursej@...>

my mom struggles with her weight, and has all of her life.  she transferred that struggle to me.  it's taken me years of work to undo what i learned from her.  i tell myself that 'my body serves me well', i am healthy and strong, regardless of being a bit too round.  it's the message that i hope to pass on to my daughters.  they are strong, their bodies serve them well.  period. no buts. 


here are four links that have been SUPER helpful to me recently.  hope they're of help to you. 


http://www.dailylife.com.au/life-and-love/parenting-and-families/when-your-mother-says-shes-fat-20130604-2nnxq.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQucWXWXp3k

http://www.stevewiens.com/2013/03/06/these-are-the-lines-of-a-story/

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1373438121/a-beautiful-body-book-project


mother yourself.  do the best you can.  hugs.  it's hard, this stuff.


best, 

jen 


Karen

>>>>>I'm not sure how to help her not learn that horrible trait when I can't unlearn it myself!<<<<<

Be careful what you tell yourself. You *can* learn to appreciate yourself the way you are. You have the perfect motivation for moving in that direction...Your daughter.

I have a bit of a self-deprecating sense of humour. My son really doesn't like it, so I've needed to learn not to talk that way around him. He told me once "You're great." I responded with a chuckle and the offhanded comment "I'm okay." He said "No. You're great, and you need to know that." In that moment I realized that it really mattered to *him* what *I* thought of myself. It also mattered to him that I understood just how much he thought of me.

Your size, or attractiveness, or grace, or intelligence are irrelevant in the adoring eyes of your children. What they need to see from you is what it looks like to embrace the features that make you uniquely you. It's what we do with what we have that allows us move closer to reaching our full potential.

Again, try to be mindful of not using language (even to yourself) that causes you to hit a wall.

Karen.

Sandra Dodd

-=-my mom struggles with her weight-=-

This phrase is an idiom—a lump of words that go together.  
Anytime a phrase comes out (in writing, in speech, or even in thought)  that came out of someone else's mouth, beware.  It's recitation, parroting, and not really clear thought. 


There are cultures (and ours was one not so many decades ago) where people "struggle with" their skin color, and put lighteners on, and still people pay for tanning even knowing that it's bad for their health.   In India skin creams and soaps and lotions hint or state that they will make skin lighter.

I think "struggling with her weight" means trying to be thinner, and being unhappy with herself.  It can eat up a person's whole life where they don't feel worthy of HAVING a life, or where they don't see life directly.  

I think even using the phrase is harmful.

Sandra

Jenny Cyphers

He told me once "You're great." I responded with a chuckle and the offhanded comment "I'm okay." He said "No. You're great, and you need to know that." In that moment I realized that it really mattered to *him* what *I* thought of myself. It also mattered to him that I understood just how much he thought of me. 

My mom didn't think of herself as pretty.  She did that self deprecating thing.  I knew that I looked like her, people told me so.  I used to be scared of growing up to be ugly.  I didn't believe my mother was ugly.  I was just a kid though and I figured my mom knew something I didn't about how beauty is perceived.  My dad thinks my mother is beautiful and paints her all the time. Even when he's not painting her, there are elements of her in people he paints.

My sister did the same thing, she might still do that.  All of her daughters look like her and people tell her girls that all the time.  My nieces hear their mother say how ugly she is an they hear others say how much they look like her.

I've intentionally said positive things about my appearance and my own daughters' appearance because they do look like me and I want them to know and feel what it is to like ones appearance.  There are so many things I could be critical about of my own appearance, things I used to say about myself, but I silence that voice and make it stay unspoken.

Both of my girls have had struggles with weight issues.  My oldest thinned out after puberty and has stayed tiny.  My youngest is just starting puberty, she's 12, and will likely have many body changes over the next few years.  I wish it was easier to find clothing for kids that aren't for only thin people.  That can be frustrating no matter how much you may be secure in your own skin, something I don't thing most pubescent girls are, secure in their own skin.  I believe all kids want and need to feel attractive!  Although I don't believe the saying "a face only a mother could love", if it's even remotely true then by gosh I will make sure my kids know I love their faces!

I think if a kid ends up wanting to change their diet, there is little you can do to stop them and much you could do to either help or hinder.  I definitely would not push it or bring it up as an option for weight control.
Sent from my iPhone

Sandra Dodd

-=-Both of my girls have had struggles with weight issues. -=-

Even without the "struggles," if it could just be "weight issues," still.... the phrase itself is damning.

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<My mom didn't think of herself as pretty.  She did that self deprecating thing.  I knew that I looked like her, people told me so.  I used to be scared of growing up to be ugly.  I didn't believe my mother was ugly.  I was just a kid though and I figured my mom knew something I didn't about how beauty is perceived.  My dad thinks my mother is beautiful and paints her all the time. Even when he's not painting her, there are elements of her in people he paints.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


That is exactly what I have been saying on unschooling discussions! Thanks Jenny! Parents are afraid of a plastic doll that is not real, and kids know it, like Barbie but what really damages a child's self esteem and body image is a parent comparing, critiquing, complaining  and dissing their own body ( or someone else body).
My mom is still a good looking lady at 73.
I grew up with her always complaining about her physical traits and wishing they were different. That has damaged me a lot! I look like her after all!
I am trying really hard not to pass that onto my daughter.

It took me years to see beauty in all types of bodies! I actually learned a lot when I worked for Chanel cosmetics as a manager and did a lot of make up artistry training. I had a co-worker that found everyone beautiful and always would says something nice about everyone.
"Oh that girl has the most beautiful lustrous hair"
"He skin is so beautiful"
It did not matter what the person looked like she always saw their beauty!. I am so thankful for working with her. Now I see beauty in everyone too.

Because when people are always looking to diss others or themselves  that is damaging to them and their children.

A simple : " I don;t have any butt", "I wish my nose was not so wide", can take years to get over even if you have a real nice butt and a nose that is not wide!!!

So when a mom is unhappy and does not like herself  that is damaging! Not a plastic cute toy!

Alex Polikowsky!




<saralouwho@...>

I'd like to add one more thought to the discussion.  I've seen several people mention not to encourage or bring up dieting, but to support them if they want to.  I actually think that dieting can be very damaging to not just their psyches, but also to their body.  There is more and more evidence that dieting actually results in higher body weight in the long run.  Not only that, dieting also leads to higher chances of diabetes, higher blood sugar, higher cholesterol.  I know this runs counter to what society and even most doctors tell us everyday.  It takes a while for evidence to reach mainstream, especially when dieting is a very lucrative industry.  I would definitely encourage anyone who is considering dieting, or has a child considering dieting to educate themselves on the subject.  There are some great books out there.  Of course, it's up to your child to decide these things, but providing them access to some relevant information is important. 


http://www.amazon.com/Overcoming-Overeating-Break-Healthier-Satisfying/dp/1456413333/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387835587&sr=8-1&keywords=overcome+overeating


http://www.amazon.com/The-Diet-Myth-Obsessions-Hazardous/dp/159240135X/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1387835614&sr=8-5&keywords=paul+campos


http://www.amazon.com/Health-At-Every-Size-Surprising/dp/1935618253/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387835647&sr=8-1&keywords=health+at+every+size


Sandra Dodd

-=-  I would definitely encourage anyone who is considering dieting, or has a child considering dieting to educate themselves on the subject. -=-

I would encourage them to learn more.  
:-)

(Discouraging "educate yourself" or "teach yourself" in favor of "learn"!)


Good points, about dieting; could use a tweak about unschooling.

Sandra