Sandra Dodd

I found Katie Pybus (in the UK) had linked this somewhere:


"I might send my kids to college" touches me in the control and choices and "have to" areas.   But the  article is short, and good, and gave me the creeps.

There was another article a few years ago that said that investing the cost of a college education could be more financially sound than the higher income (if any) compared to the cost of college.  If anyone kept or can find that, or related links, lets just pile them up.

And is this just an American situation?  Are people borrowing money or going into debt the cost of a house in Canada?  Europe?  

In India there's huge pressure for people to get college degrees (engineering or medicine for the guys; anything preferably scientific for the women who might stay home with children anyway and not work, but for "marriagability," a master's degree is good.   Those are some very expensive wedding preparations.

And what's the corruption she's talking about?  Certainly there's suspicious textbook activity, when people are required to buy $200 books.  At the community colleges here, the books often cost more than the tuition for a course.

This can be useful for unschoolers because we've already stepped off the treadmill, and if it's only to jump back on at some point, even though our kids might do great in college, how can we help them decide without the traditional carrots and sticks, which are certainly nothing BUT manipulation, and are partly corruption itself of social and emotional and class and reality sorts.  

Sandra

chris ester

>>>>>>And what's the corruption she's talking about?  Certainly there's suspicious textbook activity, when people are required to buy $200 books.  At the community colleges here, the books often cost more than the tuition for a course.<<<<<<

The part of the article that referred to corruption was a link to this article.


It is long, a little slanted (because Rolling Stone is VERY liberal and has a history of mistrust of the gov't), but also it seems very thorough.   It is also a little depressing for those of us that have a child close to embarking on late adolescent education--either college, trade school, on the job training or just getting a job and forging ahead.  

What about the original article gave you the creeps?  If I may ask.  
Chris




On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 7:02 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
 

I found Katie Pybus (in the UK) had linked this somewhere:



"I might send my kids to college" touches me in the control and choices and "have to" areas.   But the  article is short, and good, and gave me the creeps.

There was another article a few years ago that said that investing the cost of a college education could be more financially sound than the higher income (if any) compared to the cost of college.  If anyone kept or can find that, or related links, lets just pile them up.

And is this just an American situation?  Are people borrowing money or going into debt the cost of a house in Canada?  Europe?  

In India there's huge pressure for people to get college degrees (engineering or medicine for the guys; anything preferably scientific for the women who might stay home with children anyway and not work, but for "marriagability," a master's degree is good.   Those are some very expensive wedding preparations.

And what's the corruption she's talking about?  Certainly there's suspicious textbook activity, when people are required to buy $200 books.  At the community colleges here, the books often cost more than the tuition for a course.

This can be useful for unschoolers because we've already stepped off the treadmill, and if it's only to jump back on at some point, even though our kids might do great in college, how can we help them decide without the traditional carrots and sticks, which are certainly nothing BUT manipulation, and are partly corruption itself of social and emotional and class and reality sorts.  

Sandra


Sandra Dodd

-=-What about the original article gave you the creeps?  If I may ask.  -=-

The whole mood, the idea of corruption and despair and yet the pervasive pressure from all directions for "good parents" to provide college education for every possible child.   Some kids' interests need it.  Some kids just want it!  That's fine.  I suppose the jittery response I had was that.  There's no good place to stand or sort, it's just a deep and thorough mess charged with tradition and emotion.

Sandra

Rippy and Graham Dusseldorp

-=- And is this just an American situation?  Are people borrowing money or going into debt the cost of a house in Canada?  Europe? -=- 

I went to University in Canada about 20 years ago and I took 5 years to complete a 4 year degree. I had a small scholarship (maybe $2000 CDN) out of high school. I ended up with a debt of about $40000 CDN when I graduated. I was living with my parents so I didn't have any rent, food, or utilities bills. I also worked various part time jobs while in school and worked full time for a few weeks every summer. I did not pay interest on the loan while I was studying, but started paying interest from the time of graduation. 

I know I borrowed more money than I really needed because I think tuition, books and fees for the year cost about $4000 per year. 

When I graduated, the $40000 debt seemed astronomical to me. My parents, university advisors, professors, friends, classmates, etc. had been telling me for years I would probably struggle to get a job with an Arts degree in Anthropology. I was a bit freaked out when I graduated that they might be right. 

But they were all wrong :-) It turns out people will hire you even if you study Anthropology ;-)

These days an undergraduate arts degree in Canada costs about $8000 per year and you can still get an interest free loan while you are a student. 

Rippy

Rippy and Graham Dusseldorp

-=- And is this just an American situation?  Are people borrowing money or going into debt the cost of a house in Canada?  Europe? -=-

This is probably going to make Americans and Canadians envious :-/

Graham went to university about 20 years ago in the Netherlands. All students received government study funding.

He received enough funding to cover all his tuition, books, school supplies and about half his rent. He lived in student housing. In the Netherlands, students rent 'rooms' in houses or apartments where they have their own bedroom, but share a kitchen and a bathroom. He also received a free public transport card that covered all his train/bus/tram/metro travel in the *entire* country. 

This package was available to all students going to any Dutch university, college or trade school. When he was in university, it was available for up to 5 years for a 4 year degree. After this, you could have an interest free (or maybe it was a super low-interest loan) from the government.

Graham's parents income was low enough that he qualified for extra government funding. Essentially he had enough funds to cover all his rent and part of his living expenses. He supplemented this by having a part time weekend job and working full time for a few weeks each summer.

During his university years, there was a bank that offered all students a free national museum card that gave them access to about 400 museums around the country (which he could travel to for free), if you opened an account with them.

He took a little over 6 years to finish his 4 year degree. He said he was having lots of fun :-)  He did an exchange program with Indiana University for a spring semester, and did thesis research in Tanzania, both funded by his University. 

During his last 16 months he went into debt (with his uncle) for about $12,000 (US) because he needed to pay for his own tuition, books, rent and living expenses. He still had a free public transport card, but he now only had a choice of using it during the week or on weekends, but not both.

Things are different now. He thinks tuition and books would probably cost students around $5000 (US) now, and the money is probably only available as a loan. We're not sure what the situation will be like when our kids are older, but I doubt it would ever be as expensive as it is in America.

Rippy

chris ester

Ah, I understand.  I feel bemused when I am confronted with this same thing.  

My kids are capable of attaining a college degree--they have the intellectual wiring to do well in a college environment and come out on the other end with a degree. Most of our friends and family expect that college is the GOAL of their homeschooling journey.  

My husband and I had a goal to give our children as many options as we could, to give them as much freedom to figure out what they want to do as possible.  My husband and I went to college (and acquired the debt as well) but we did not feel that we had any other palatable choice at the time.  

My husband has been very successful as is measured by traditional means--money, mostly.  Of course, the money that he makes is sucked up by a lot of debt that we accrued getting to the "goal" of a "good" education.  

We have been kicking this around a lot.  My son is nearing 18 and he is a sensitive-anxious kind of person so he seems to feel as if there is some big deadline coming where he has to CHOOSE--something.  

I am trying to support him, but I have gotten it wrong a couple of times.  I have tried to give him ideas/options about what he could do once he is legally independent.  Initially, because I wasn't clear about my meaning and intention, he took these suggestions as pressure.  We finally cleared it up and he then felt less pressured.  

I have two kids.  My son (the eldest) is introverted and thoughtful and sensitive, as well as insecure, shy and uncertain.  My daughter has already made a plan and a contingency plan.  She just knows that she will be able to make a way and that she will cope with things as they come.  

I am not entirely certain how to support my son and help him come to some decisions.  He isn't happy with his uncertainty, and I am trying to assure him that he doesn't have to have a plan, but I think that he wants to have one.  Any suggestions?
chris


On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 12:10 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
 

-=-What about the original article gave you the creeps?  If I may ask.  -=-


The whole mood, the idea of corruption and despair and yet the pervasive pressure from all directions for "good parents" to provide college education for every possible child.   Some kids' interests need it.  Some kids just want it!  That's fine.  I suppose the jittery response I had was that.  There's no good place to stand or sort, it's just a deep and thorough mess charged with tradition and emotion.

Sandra


Rippy and Graham Dusseldorp

-=- And is this just an American situation?  Are people borrowing money or going into debt the cost of a house in Canada?  Europe? -=-

My undergraduate student loan had an influence on my choices. 

I traveled through Europe after graduation, but I only traveled for 4 months instead of a year. I didn't apply for international working visas because I needed a 'real job' to make enough to pay off my loan.

When I was back in Canada, I turned down some interesting job offers with non-profits because I was now paying interest on my student loan and I needed to make more money to have enough to pay the loans off. 

I only started to relax about my loan when I started working in the private sector. The private sector wasn't my first choice, but I did not want to be burdened by debt for years and years.

When I had paid off my debt by about 50%, I felt confident enough that I could take a couple of years to do what I really wanted to do - travel and work odd jobs. My employer offered me a spot back at the company whenever I wanted to return, so I felt it was worth the risk of losing a regular income and going into the unknown.

I made very different choices when I went to graduate school. 

I enrolled in graduate school when I was 28. I knew the reality of what it meant to have an enormous student loan and how much work was required to pay off the loan. I also realized that, for me, my student loan had limited some of my choices and not expanded them. 

I decided I did not want any more student loans ever again. 

Part of my decision was based on my knowledge that employers like investing in their staff and would offer to fund graduate school. My employer made me such an offer when I was working in the private sector. However, if you make this kind of deal, you most often agree to work for your employer for a certain amount of years. If you leave before your agreed committed time, you opt out of the arrangement by paying your employer back for your student fees. I decided not to do it.

When I met my husband, Graham, he was keen for me to have a graduate degree (he already had one). We both wanted to work for the UN and the job required a graduate degree. I was confident that I could find a way around this since I had much more work relevant experience than Graham did and great references. I was certain they would love me and possibly even offer to pay for graduate school while I was working for them. 

Graham thought I was living in lala land ;-)  He convinced a reluctant me to fill out a few applications to Canadian graduate schools. I got in. When the university called me with the 'good news', I calculated the student fees, living costs for two people not working (Graham didn't have a work visa) and costs of an intercontinental move and balked at what I would need to pay for an 8 month Master's degree. Not only would we be paying almost $20000, but I would be losing a higher income and Graham would need to withdraw from the interview process with the Ministry of Nature where he was now a serious contender for a policy advisor position.

I told the university that I would not be accepting my spot and they could give it away to the first student on the waiting list. They called me back and offered me a paid position as a Teacher's Assistant. It would cover about half of our costs. I politely refused again and said I didn't want to have any loans and I would rather save up for it than do it right now. A few days later they called back and offered me a full scholarship to cover the remaining costs. I had no idea they were going to do this. I hadn't applied for any scholarships because my heart wasn't really into it. We still lost out on higher salaries for those 8 months, but at least my student fees, our move and almost all of our living costs were funded by the university.

Recently a friend of mine with two young children was thinking of going back to university. She already has a Master's degree and a lot of student debt. I gave her a copy of Chris Guillebeau's book, The $100 Startup: Reinvent the Way You Make a Living, Do What You Love, and Create a New Future, http://www.amazon.com/ The-100-Startup-Reinvent- Living/dp/0307951529

I think it might be a better idea for her than university. She's a lot like me - easily distracted by new projects and a bit of a commitment-phobe. 

Rippy


Sandra Dodd

-=-I am not entirely certain how to support my son and help him come to some decisions.  He isn't happy with his uncertainty, and I am trying to assure him that he doesn't have to have a plan, but I think that he wants to have one.  Any suggestions?-=-

Travel.  
With him, him alone, him to visit other unschoolers in places he hasn't been.  Shake it up, maybe, if that would appeal to him.

Maybe he can get ideas about the world outside his home more easily in... the world outside his home.

Sandra

Juliet Kemp



-=- And is this just an American situation?  Are people borrowing money or going into debt the cost of a house in Canada?  Europe? -=- 

When I was at university in the UK (started 16 years ago) there were no fees, and some grants were available based on parental income (I got one when my dad retired halfway through my course). 

Low-interest student loans (guaranteed at a bit above base rate, indefinitely, and you only repay above a certain income threshold) came in while I was there, initially for living costs as they withdrew all grants.

Then fees (low rate, 1-2000 a year I think?) came in, just after my time. Now fees are up to 9,000 UKP a year (think that's something like 15,000 USD?). Loans are still available, I think still low-interest and only pay back after a certain level. So 27-36,000 for university, plus living expenses, now, and who knows how much by the time Leon (now 20 months) would be going, if he wants to.

I had no debt after my BA (see above re no fees and some grants!), but went on to do an MPhil for which I had to pay fees and take out loans. Somewhere around 10,000 UKP in total, I think, which I paid off over the next 5-6 years. Not sure whether or not it was "worth it" - it had various important impacts on my life but none were directly related to the actual academic study.

My debt didn't have a big effect, but 3 or more times that debt for a first degree seems 
Iike a lot to me.


Juliet  

Rippy and Graham Dusseldorp

-=- I am not entirely certain how to support my son and help him come to some decisions.  He isn't happy with his uncertainty, and I am trying to assure him that he doesn't have to have a plan, but I think that he wants to have one.  Any suggestions? -=-

I have this quote floating around at home and thought it might be helpful here:

There are so many adventures that you miss because you are waiting to think of a plan. To find them, look for tiny interesting choices. And remember, you are always making up the future as you go. - Randall Munroe 

Maybe have a few casual conversations with him about different possibilities. See if any of the possibilities make him light up. As Sandra suggested, you could travel. You both could attend different lectures together on interesting subjects by interesting people. You could enroll as unclassified students together (or just him) at college or university and take one class to see if he likes the environment. He could try to get an internship or apprenticeship somewhere. He can job shadow. He can apply for a job. 

Maybe he'd like to read that book I mentioned earlier: The $100 Startup: Reinvent the Way You Make a Living, Do What You Love, and Create a New Future. He could travel somewhere interesting and foreign and take a summer program or a cooking course or something else that is interesting to him. You could forward some articles to him about finding inspiring work like this one: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/creativityrulz/200908/mastering-the-art-living-0

Maybe he would be interested in doing some personality tests, such as Myers-Briggs or the Enneagram to find out more about himself. 

He could juggle different options to see which ones he likes more.

Help him figure out things that inspire him and are important to him. Help him figure out it's okay not to have a plan, or to have a plan and then change your mind.

Rippy



BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

The public Universities in Brazil used to be free ( I don't know if they still are).
The private not.
I went to a private one and it was  expensive.  I left with no debt. My parents payed it all.
I think it was  just under $ 5000 a year. books I could buy used and I lived in my Grandmother's house to be closer to school.
 
The public ones are harder to get in because of competition. I am glad they exist because many would not be able to attend if they did not.

I have no idea how it is now :)

 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


Jamie Maltman

One author who challenges the value of college costs (and home ownership, and lots of other things) is James Altucher.

He's an entertaining blogger who was college educated and previously worked in computers, investments/finance, made millions, lost it, started businesses and now finds joy writing in very self-deprecating--think Woody Allenish--blog posts where he bares his soul to the world.

He's also philosophically aligned with Unschooling(http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2012/07/how-i-would-unschool-my-kids/), but is divorced and has shared custody and so he just brings his "unique" brand of parenting to his daughters in the time they have together. (You have to read more of him to understand where he's coming from. I'm not 100% endorsing him, but I think he gives a lot of great food for thought on many topics, and I find him pretty hilarious.)

He's been quoted a lot for his opinions on college in all sorts of other publications, because he's pretty controversial. And gets death threats.

Here's where he started talking about college, and runs through a lot of the key numbers to think about when you're doing the comparison:

which includes part of what Sandra asked about (the $104K was an average 4 year college cost in today's numbers, which kind of blows my mind. My 4 year degree here in Canada was maybe 35K 15 years ago, and that included a 1 year exchange to Hong Kong and 2 more years in the dorm, one year living back at home.)

"If I took that $104,000 and I chose to invest it in a savings account that had interest income of 5% per year I’d end up with an extra $1.4 million dollars over a 50 year period. A full $600,000 more. That $600,000 is a lot of extra money an 18 year old could look forward to in her retirement. I also think the $800,000 quoted above is too high. Right now most motivated kids who have the interest and resources to go to college think it’s the only way to go if they want a good job. If those same kids decided to not go to college my guess is they would quickly close the gap on that $800,000 spread."

Clarified some of his views a little more here:

And another post of 8 alternatives to college:

(which he expands on in his book:

And here's a post on the challenge he would offer to his daughters:

Enjoy!
Jamie (the Dad)

Sandra Dodd

Thanks, Jamie! That was the guy!

Lynn and Greg Easter

Hello all-

I am just joining in the group.
My name is Lynn Salmon-Easter and I reside in Minneapolis with my husband, 5 yr old daughter and cat.

I am not certain of the origin of this conversation, but I have encountered   Blake Boles www.blakeboles.comand I have been enjoying his blog and books. He has written several books challenging traditional college and helps/coaches young adults with unschooling. He claims he came to unschooling late in his life, but he is a supporter and active in the movement.

Here is his bio:
Blake Boles is an author, entrepreneur, and educator. He builds exciting alternatives to traditional school for self-directed young people.

Kindly-
Lynn