<anita_loomis@...>

I could use some help thinking through an issue about children making their own medical choices. My five year old is suffering from terrible constipation (pain, weeping and screaming "It won't come out! Why won't it come out! Come out poop!")  At her doctor's recommendation, she took Miralax for six days.  I am totally comfortable with using bribes or incentives so that is what we (mostly) did in order to get the medicine down.  I say "mostly" because sometimes I did lapse into badgering behavior that was not helpful but I caught myself and apologized and let her know that it was her choice to take the medicine to help the poop come out.  Unfortunately, this did not clear the blockage and today our doctor is recommending an enema or suppository. My daughter is now refusing to have any medicine and becomes completely distraught when I mention that she can take medicine in her bum.  She is back in diapers 24/7. My husband feels that we "have to" make her take an enema or suppository right away.  I am concerned about the mental and relationship damage any such enforcement could cause, not to mention the physical impossibility of me restraining her to get the medicine in.  I want to offer her time to get used to the idea and a choice of enema or suppository, but I am not sure that even with time and these choices that we will get to anything approaching a "yes."  She says she want to wait for the poop to come out on its own.  I am not sure if this is just magical thinking or if I should just step back and trust her or if there are other approaches that I am missing?

 

Some background: Thanks to help from this group and other unschooling resources, we have been doing monkey platters for about a year now. I think the constipation is partly due to her food choices. I have shared information with her about what foods can help her poop be soft but I do not restrict her food choices.  I let her know what things she could add to her diet but she chooses not to right now and gets really mad if I put a fruit choice on her platter with her regular favorites.  So there is no easy diet fix for this.

 

She has been an every couple of days pooper since she was 2 or so.  She uses the toilet to pee but not poop.  I have been following a "let her do it in her own time" approach to using the toilet but it appears by taking that route she has developed real pain associated with pooping that I did not recognize.  She generally wanted to poop in private in the bedroom so, while I knew she was straining, I did not realize that it was hurting so much that she has begun a withholding pattern.  She also weaned about 5 months ago so we no longer have the help of nursing to encourage bowel movements. 

 

I also now realize that some of the behaviors that I was attributing to what gets labeled a "highly sensitive" or "highly spirited" temperament, such as wanting to stay home most all of the time and an over-the-top grouchiness, is probably coming from ongoing physical discomfort and a desire to be near a safe place to poop, as much as any personality traits. 

 

I think this situation can be a chance to deepen our unschooling practices over the long-term.  She's already drawing pictures of how poop comes out and she and I constructed a handmade doctor's kit that she is using on all her stuffed animals and our cat.  I know the information I have shared is being taken in on her own schedule. But, according to medical sources, the longer we wait to do this enema/suppository, the more her colon will get stretched out of shape and the longer the recovery from that will be. Not to mention that we will need to negotiate if she will take the medicine suggested for the following month or months to help her poop get soft enough to end the withholding pattern and negotiating if she will try sitting on the toilet.   Probably more sticker charts and bribes:) 

 

Also, at this point, we have not been out of the house, except for 2 doctors visits and a trip to the toy store for almost two weeks now and not much outside time at all for the past month. I understand that she wants to stay home but I could use a bit of fresh air and sunshine (or a walk under the moon) to recharge my mothering batteries.  I am the only one who she lets her diaper. She wants me to stay in the house with her, period.  

 

I want to get at the larger issues here but also want to help her alleviate the immediate blockage.  Suggestions?

Sandra Dodd

-=-Thanks to help from this group and other unschooling resources, we have been doing monkey platters for about a year now. -=-

Not for every meal, though, right?  A time or three a week?  

-=-I let her know what things she could add to her diet but she chooses not to right now and gets really mad if I put a fruit choice on her platter with her regular favorites.  So there is no easy diet fix for this.-=-

Your choice isn't "monkey platter / control choices."  There's a big world of food.  There are popsicles, smoothies, iced drinks, snowcones or shaveice.  Maybe there's something that would "make her go" in a personal, particular way.  Some people, milk or ice cream.  Some people, certain sodas, or something very oily or greasy.  Dolmas, or something else packed in oil? (Maybe not fun for young children.)  Maybe tuna in oil?     But in some happy, fun, "This is good!" way, not in some sad, cajoling, 'please eat this' way, or 'maybe this will work' way.  

Your routine isn't working.  It would very likely be helpful to entirely change your routine for a while.

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll

Is she afraid the suppository or enema will hurt?

Try searching the archives of Always Learning for ideas.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/msearch?query=constipat&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8

If that links breaks, search on "constipat" which will bring up constipation, constipated, constipate.

There are suggestions that humans aren't designed to sit to poop. Squatting gets the innards lined up properly. There are stools that wrap around the toilet that bring the knees up. Search for "squat potty". (Amazon sells them.) They're for adults as well as kids so just get one and use it yourself. You can say you stumbled across the idea that squatting is better while reading about pooping and wanted to try it yourself. Show her how to move it out of the way.

What might help is to stop focussing on what will help her go. Instead just add things to her life that will help her go. Right now it probably feels like the whole day is focused on her pooping. Which is probably increasing her tension and withholding!

Walking, climbing. Horseback riding :-) Warm baths. (Get some new fun things to do in the bath.) Massage with scented oil. (Massaging the belly can help, but an overall massage can help ease her tension and make it less poop focused ;-) Ease out the white flour and (possibly) cheese where you can. Substitute more fiber rich snacks and foods. (A sudden big up in fiber can cause cramps.) Popcorn. Peas. (My daughter loved frozen peas :-) Berries and seeds, perhaps in granola bars or yogurt or the smoothies and popsicles Sandra mentioned. Probiotics might help (some yogurts will have them. Kefir (Lifeway brand is especially yummy.)) Make fiber rich snacks like cookies and muffins. Make your own bread. Do these with her :-) Make it as easy as possible for her to drink; keep a water bottle near her, juice boxes, filled sippy cups. Up the oil in her diet.

Joyce

lucy.web


On 22 Oct 2013, at 22:36, anita_loomis@... wrote:

My husband feels that we "have to" make her take an enema or suppository right away.  I am concerned about the mental and relationship damage any such enforcement could cause, not to mention the physical impossibility of me restraining her to get the medicine in.

My earliest memory is of someone forcing a suppository into my bottom.   I must have been very young, and neither of my parents even remember the incident, but I do.   I remember feeling completely humiliated, ashamed, powerless and very, very angry.   

I wouldn't want to do that to any child of mine without their permission as I suspect the mental effects will long outlast any potential medical benefit.   I've remembered it for going on 40 years, even though many other - more obviously 'traumatic' things -  have also happened to me since then.

Lucy


Brenda Ferns

Hi. I'm sorry you are going through this. It is so very hard to watch our kids go through any kind of discomfert

My oldest dd who's 10 now had issues while pooping when she started potty training for preschool when she was three. This was before our unschooling days. She would hold it for such a long time and we ended up doing enemas and seposotories. It was awful to watch my little girl be in so much pain. I did some research back then and had her tested for celiacs disease and that wasnt it. Then I came across foods and natural remedies to soften stool. Smoothies like sandra mentioned is a plus add some to the smoothies and fish oil and you can get ground flax seed meal and add that. Flax seed pancakes are good I like flax seed muffins too. If you can get her to drink some carrot juice. If you don't have one already a juicer would be good to get fresh juice has lots of fiber. As well as some fruits and veggies benefit the colon especially thos with beta carotene in them. She could help you juice my kids love using the juicer.

I myself have Ulcerative Colitis and have to keep my fiber intake just right. Diet plays a huge role in our bodies especially elimination. If our vitamin and mineral level is out of wack somewhere it can really effect the elimination process. The issue with taking a multi vitamin id that everyone's bodies are different and some vitamins are not water soluable so the body can too much of one vitamin that is where a good diet comes into play. If my 8 year old DD and I get gluten we are in severe pain within minutes. I cant have dairy or caffine either. I don't stop others in the home from eating these things. I have shared a lot of information with them about foods and the effect they have on the body mind and soul. We eat mostly gluten free and mostly a paleo diet. I bake a lot gf goodies like cookies brownies pies etc... I also make a lot of raw food snacks as well. The beauty of baking at home is knowing what's in it. A lot of people in this world can't handle gluten or processed foods and a lot of them don't realize that a lot of health issues are caused by eating processed foods and gluten. Sense I have went paleo with eating mostly fruit and veggies my uc cleared up within days and i had just gotten out of the hospital for the sixth time in less then four years with a near miss of surgery and a ostomy. I Had realized at that monent after reaching 70lbs, and almost dying that the natetalpath that i had visited was right i needed to go on a paleo diet. I made a lot of paleo goodies for myself to make it easier on me during the die off of the gluten and processed foods. I also realized how very important it is that we are knowlegable and cautious of what we are putting into our bodies.

With all that being said i have noticed that diet makes a big difference in our overall health. How long has this been going on? How long has she been using the potty? Has her diet changed before this started? Is there more change or stress in her environment? All these things are important to consider. There is a natural cure for this. You can find good alternatives to her favorite snacks and foods. Experiment and try making new dishes and snacks that are gluten free and all natural.

I would also suggest looking into going organic as much as possible. There is a dirty dozen list for fruits and veggies that can make it more cost effective. Walmart sells all natural gluten free and gmo free noodles that are less then 2.00. That could be an alternative. I make a mac n cheese for my kids out of real cheese and milk and they love it. There are so many options. My kids love corn chips with sugar and cinnamon on them baked. Breakfast burritos with corn tortillas. So many options out there. You can also find coupons for gluten free and gmo free foods and produce then match with a store sale. I have saved a lot that way that has allowed us to eat thr way we have been. Our health is very important because it determins our mental emotional and physical health. I would start with making some diet changes and trying to not make it to drastic.

I hope some of this helps and that I haven't overwhelmed you.

If there are any errors in my post please excuse them I am typing on my phone.

You can email me at mommieof4kiddiesa@.... I am also on facebook under Brenda Ferns if you want to friend me.

On Oct 23, 2013 7:27 AM, "Joyce Fetteroll" <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
 

Is she afraid the suppository or enema will hurt?

Try searching the archives of Always Learning for ideas.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/msearch?query=constipat&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8

If that links breaks, search on "constipat" which will bring up constipation, constipated, constipate.

There are suggestions that humans aren't designed to sit to poop. Squatting gets the innards lined up properly. There are stools that wrap around the toilet that bring the knees up. Search for "squat potty". (Amazon sells them.) They're for adults as well as kids so just get one and use it yourself. You can say you stumbled across the idea that squatting is better while reading about pooping and wanted to try it yourself. Show her how to move it out of the way.

What might help is to stop focussing on what will help her go. Instead just add things to her life that will help her go. Right now it probably feels like the whole day is focused on her pooping. Which is probably increasing her tension and withholding!

Walking, climbing. Horseback riding :-) Warm baths. (Get some new fun things to do in the bath.) Massage with scented oil. (Massaging the belly can help, but an overall massage can help ease her tension and make it less poop focused ;-) Ease out the white flour and (possibly) cheese where you can. Substitute more fiber rich snacks and foods. (A sudden big up in fiber can cause cramps.) Popcorn. Peas. (My daughter loved frozen peas :-) Berries and seeds, perhaps in granola bars or yogurt or the smoothies and popsicles Sandra mentioned. Probiotics might help (some yogurts will have them. Kefir (Lifeway brand is especially yummy.)) Make fiber rich snacks like cookies and muffins. Make your own bread. Do these with her :-) Make it as easy as possible for her to drink; keep a water bottle near her, juice boxes, filled sippy cups. Up the oil in her diet.

Joyce

Lisa Celedon

I posted a similar situation to this list a few months ago.  The ensuing replies (short, and few) were invaluable.  I suggest looking it up in the archives.
In particular I remember something Sandra said, about "soft moms" helping to make "soft poop."

Totally changed my world.

Animals and humans withhold poop when something in the environment makes it undesirable to relax and let it happen.  Focus on making her world soft and warm and loving and kind.  Focus on being a soft mom instead of one focused on her poop.  Choices and options and decisions will likely flow much easier.

If she's impacted, get it taken care of.  It's painful, is distressing, and negotiations about whether or not to take medicine and explanations about what you may or may not do with her bum are probably only going to further stress out a five year old and make her more anxious about it.  Also, her decisions about what to ingest are wrapped in not causing herself further discomfort-- there probably isnt much joy to be found in it for her right now if impaction is the case.

When I searched the archives prior to posting about my son's impaction, I found a few suggestions about enemas and suppositories.  I was able to do a suppository with my son and with the guidance of a nurse friend, used oil and a finger to dislodge the impaction.  It was over in less than ten minutes.

We got some cute fun straw cups my son loves and he takes miralax in those.  We just mix it and leave it out all day, and he usually finishes it all.  I don't stress (anymore) when he doesn't finish a dose one day.  If it's more than a day, then I need to change something up.  A different cup?  Juice instead of water?  I pay attention to what's going on around him when he's content to sit and sip at the cup.  He's in a comfy spot on the couch, with a movie he loves on.  Or on a longish car ride in his seat.  I try to offer more of that he hasn't been finishing it.

And food-- he eats what he wants, when he wants, regardless of whether or not I think it might cause constipation.  He's not at all interested in how his food affects his pooping.  That's what the miralax is for.  I've found that the stress level in our home seems to have far more impact on how often he poops than what he's eating.

Someone also linked the pages on sandra's page on gratitude and abundance in the discussion.  Wonderful.


Lisa C



Pam Sorooshian

Gummy bears or other gummy candies with sorbitol are stool softening.

-pam

Jennifer Smith

Miralax!!! My daughter, 10 months, has Downs Syndrome along with some other serious health issues. She takes diuretics which drain her body of water so her lungs won't fill with fluids. Results in painful constipation. The Dr. advised me to give her miralax. After 1 week of taking a dose everyday her stool is so much softer. Mix it with whatever your child likes to drink. I continue with warm baths and massages and if she wants, prunes and applesauce. Sometimes she only wants green beans. At 10 months, this girl knows what kind of baby food she likes!!!

~Jen

Lisa Celedon

I loved all those food suggestions from Joyce--  my son wasn't eating much of anything when he was constipated and I was restricting all food that might cause constipation and offering (and sometimes forcing) things that I thought would help.  I like that idea of "easing off" of foods that might be constipating. 

For my son, I had to totally let go of my anxious feelings about what he was eating.  I am thankful miralax let me do that, because he'll poop regardless of what he eats.  It's let me focus on helping him find what he likes, instead of what I think he needs to eat. Now I see there is such a variety of gentle options to get some pooping-friendly foods into his environment, and I can let go of my expectation that he eat x-amount of this, or not eat y-amount of that.  There's so much middle ground that I was totally missing. 

My son really liked popsicles made with peach puree, coconut cream, gelatin, and chia seeds soaked in water.  And any kind of sweetener (sugar, xylitol, honey, etc) if it's too plain.  You can also use a powdered probiotic in them, or substitute the coconut cream for yogurt.  And xylitol can loosen stools actually, but I think it has to be a lot.

Lisa C

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

.  And xylitol can loosen stools actually, but I think it has to be a lot.

-=-=-=
Actually for some people it only takes a teaspoon!

So if you make some popsicles with xylitol go easy on it or it can really makes you loose!! I had some cool aid with xylitol and I had not have xylitol in awhile and I drank a cup and had to run to the bathroom less to an hour later.
Three nights later , as I was having a glass with my dinner everynight, I did not have to go anymore. So start slow until you get used to it.

Alex Polikowsky

Gwen Montoya

Sugar-free candy has that effect too, if you eat too much. 

Gwen




On Oct 24, 2013, at 1:35 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:

.  And xylitol can loosen stools actually, but I think it has to be a lot.

-=-=-=
Actually for some people it only takes a teaspoon!

So if you make some popsicles with xylitol go easy on it or it can really makes you loose!! I had some cool aid with xylitol and I had not have xylitol in awhile and I drank a cup and had to run to the bathroom less to an hour later.
Three nights later , as I was having a glass with my dinner everynight, I did not have to go anymore. So start slow until you get used to it.

Alex Polikowsky

<alohabun@...>

Apple cider, apple juice and "Juicy Juice" can sometimes move bowels. Some of our family found this out by accident by drinking too much because it was so good! ;)

Laurie 



---In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote:

I could use some help thinking through an issue about children making their own medical choices. My five year old is suffering from terrible constipation (pain, weeping and screaming "It won't come out! Why won't it come out! Come out poop!")  At her doctor's recommendation, she took Miralax for six days.  I am totally comfortable with using bribes or incentives so that is what we (mostly) did in order to get the medicine down.  I say "mostly" because sometimes I did lapse into badgering behavior that was not helpful but I caught myself and apologized and let her know that it was her choice to take the medicine to help the poop come out.  Unfortunately, this did not clear the blockage and today our doctor is recommending an enema or suppository. My daughter is now refusing to have any medicine and becomes completely distraught when I mention that she can take medicine in her bum.  She is back in diapers 24/7. My husband feels that we "have to" make her take an enema or suppository right away.  I am concerned about the mental and relationship damage any such enforcement could cause, not to mention the physical impossibility of me restraining her to get the medicine in.  I want to offer her time to get used to the idea and a choice of enema or suppository, but I am not sure that even with time and these choices that we will get to anything approaching a "yes."  She says she want to wait for the poop to come out on its own.  I am not sure if this is just magical thinking or if I should just step back and trust her or if there are other approaches that I am missing?

 

Some background: Thanks to help from this group and other unschooling resources, we have been doing monkey platters for about a year now. I think the constipation is partly due to her food choices. I have shared information with her about what foods can help her poop be soft but I do not restrict her food choices.  I let her know what things she could add to her diet but she chooses not to right now and gets really mad if I put a fruit choice on her platter with her regular favorites.  So there is no easy diet fix for this.

 

She has been an every couple of days pooper since she was 2 or so.  She uses the toilet to pee but not poop.  I have been following a "let her do it in her own time" approach to using the toilet but it appears by taking that route she has developed real pain associated with pooping that I did not recognize.  She generally wanted to poop in private in the bedroom so, while I knew she was straining, I did not realize that it was hurting so much that she has begun a withholding pattern.  She also weaned about 5 months ago so we no longer have the help of nursing to encourage bowel movements. 

 

I also now realize that some of the behaviors that I was attributing to what gets labeled a "highly sensitive" or "highly spirited" temperament, such as wanting to stay home most all of the time and an over-the-top grouchiness, is probably coming from ongoing physical discomfort and a desire to be near a safe place to poop, as much as any personality traits. 

 

I think this situation can be a chance to deepen our unschooling practices over the long-term.  She's already drawing pictures of how poop comes out and she and I constructed a handmade doctor's kit that she is using on all her stuffed animals and our cat.  I know the information I have shared is being taken in on her own schedule. But, according to medical sources, the longer we wait to do this enema/suppository, the more her colon will get stretched out of shape and the longer the recovery from that will be. Not to mention that we will need to negotiate if she will take the medicine suggested for the following month or months to help her poop get soft enough to end the withholding pattern and negotiating if she will try sitting on the toilet.   Probably more sticker charts and bribes:) 

 

Also, at this point, we have not been out of the house, except for 2 doctors visits and a trip to the toy store for almost two weeks now and not much outside time at all for the past month. I understand that she wants to stay home but I could use a bit of fresh air and sunshine (or a walk under the moon) to recharge my mothering batteries.  I am the only one who she lets her diaper. She wants me to stay in the house with her, period.  

 

I want to get at the larger issues here but also want to help her alleviate the immediate blockage.  Suggestions?

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY




 
Sugar-free candy has that effect too, if you eat too much. 

-=-=-

The reason sugar free candy has that effect it is because it is often made with Sorbitol , Sorbitol like xylitol are alcohol sugars and can have that effect.
I read apple has sorbitol and that is why  it can have some of that effect also :)

Alex Polikowsky

ROSIE DHOOPUN


 
Here is another idea - for helping things to get moving - if body alignment isn't right it doesn't matter how much laxative food is eaten it might not be able to get out. http://www.katysays.com/when-the-poop-hurts/ ||Hope it's ok to post links.

Rosie

From: Gwen Montoya <lifeisjustthis@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, 24 October 2013, 23:27
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Medical choices for a 5 year old

 
Sugar-free candy has that effect too, if you eat too much. 

Gwen




On Oct 24, 2013, at 1:35 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:

.  And xylitol can loosen stools actually, but I think it has to be a lot.

-=-=-=
Actually for some people it only takes a teaspoon!

So if you make some popsicles with xylitol go easy on it or it can really makes you loose!! I had some cool aid with xylitol and I had not have xylitol in awhile and I drank a cup and had to run to the bathroom less to an hour later.
Three nights later , as I was having a glass with my dinner everynight, I did not have to go anymore. So start slow until you get used to it.

Alex Polikowsky


Sandra Dodd

-=-Hope it's ok to post links.-=-

It's okay to post links IF you explain why, and tie it in to unschooling.

I don't think it's ideal for an unschooling mom to put a child through specific exercises or poses or stretches just as a "cure", but remembering that kids might need more activity can be helpful.  Maybe a mom-and-child yoga class, or getting out to parks more, and playing games (follow the leader or Simon Says) to induce certain kinds of stretches.  There's all this, too: http://sandradodd.com/physicality

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-Sugar-free candy has that effect too, if you eat too much. -=-

Surely it depends on the sweetening agent and the individual.


ROSIE DHOOPUN


 


--It's okay to post links IF you explain why, and tie it in to unschooling.--

ahh ok - .Lots of the research and study of the lady in the link do relate to unschooling - she is a biomechanic and looks a lot at how we use our bodies and because of  a lot of sitting and sedentary lifestyle we have she explains how stiff and tight our bodies have become - she shows that unless your body is aligned doing even perceived gentle exercise such as yoga can cause problems because you are trying to stretch a body that has tight muscles and is misaligned - she explains how a body should be both in a passive state and in movement.

There lots of interesting exercises  to learn how our bodies should move and why we don't use our bodies correctly. (and what issues this can cause - such as constipation) The site shows you how to read your own body and learn why one stretch is better than another or is more beneficial, and how to take things gently and carefully so as not to cause any undue strain. 


It is relevant to this question because it explains that if laxative medication is not working then there may be a physical problem that is stopping the bowels from working correctly. It encompasses the idea of unschooling that it isn't just about using all the usual methods but actually thinking, looking and trying out other methods.

Rosie





Joyce Fetteroll


On Oct 26, 2013, at 3:56 AM, ROSIE DHOOPUN wrote:

Lots of the research and study of the lady in the link do relate to unschooling

Because unschoolers are particularly prone to misalignment?

Because unschooling is about providing as much information as possible to pick from?

I think what can help unschooling the most is remaining calm. What can help calmness is when first tackling a problem, *don't* look at rare-conditions-you-won't-even-know-you-have-without-an-expert's-knowledge.

It seems odd that information can be disempowering, but when it's "this is something you'd never be able to discover on your own!" it can be.

What can help a parent be more peaceful, supportive, calm is to TRUST yourself and your powers of discovery. Trust that *if* there's something more usual behind a problem that you *will* discover it. You will discover it by *first* trying what has helped the most people. From that, see what happens. What works? What doesn't work? Build from what works. Eliminate what doesn't. If nothing's working, ask more questions, try different things.

Parents especially have the potential to be so frightened they'll fail from lack of expert knowledge that they look outward for answers too soon. They want someone who knows to fix their poor child because they themselves aren't experts just parents.

But the message for parents -- especially unschooling parents -- is that you *can* discover what you need to know. Especially with the internet! It's what you're trusting your kids can do. :-) So trust yourselves. Show you're kids you trust you can figure things out. Trust the process of learning about something. Try things. See what happens. Learn from that.

Joyce