Stephknee Selby

We recently were visiting with some friends, they have 3 boys, 3, 5, and 7 and we have 3 kids, 1, 5 and 7. (We differ greatly in parenting style, and have been friends for about 15 years)

After spending the day at one of their boy's football games, riding a tractor-pulled cart, picking apples, playing at the playground, eating ice cream, petting & feeding goats, and going to the grocery store for apple pie ingredients, our friends wanted to go grab a bite to eat from the buffet at a Thai restaurant.  We don't normally go out with our children unless they are game, usually opting for take out as this seems to keep everyone happy. All of our children were tired, but these friends of ours, believe that a kid can sleep in the car, and usually push days until we are all exhausted. Rather than suggesting we do dinner at home or take-out, we agreed to go and on the way realized we would be asking too much of our children. Meanwhile, my friend was in her car telling her kids if they behaved she would take them to Chuck E Cheese. I think she thought I'd go along with that, but that would have really worn my kids out, and they were wanting to make apple pie and kept asking to go back to friend's house. Doing both would have kept us out later than we needed to be out, and we had an hour and a half drive home as well. After we declined, she told hers they would go another time.

First off, I realize we should have thwarted the restaurant idea. Because we didn't, we told the girls that we knew they were tired and that we were asking a lot from them, asked for them to try and do the best they could. (Girls were also sleep deprived, they normally stay up late, so went to bed at about midnight and were woken up at about 7:30, they were the only ones sleeping on the third floor, so someone must have gone upstairs...)

The Thai restaurant was a quiet place and our girls don't really like much of the food. When we arrived there was only one table seated: adults, enjoying conversation and food. During the meal, two of our friend's boys began to run around the table. Then my 5yo daughter got up from the table and was standing while she was poking at and sorta eating her meal. (I grabbed stuff they kind of like and cookies) I asked her to sit down and maybe we could pretend to be princesses at a party, where they expected us to sit down. Our friend's kids were under the table, behind a wall that led to the bathrooms, and repeatedly circling our table. I felt like we were disrupting the other people. (It was bothering ME and I wouldn't have liked going out seeing other kids act like that) My 5yo couldn't stay still, and wanted to play with them, so she got back up and began to play as well. So I told her to come back  whispered that it's rude to be up from the table at a restaurant. After their dad ate, he took their youngest to the car, but their 5yo was still up and jumping, kicking the air, etc. I told our 5yo I would give her more cookies, finish my food and take her outside. (Which I did) She obliged by eating cookies, but seemed confused and upset that I was requesting that she stay at the table while the other kids, now their 7yo too, were playing. Our friends were repeatedly snapping at their children to sit down, to eat their food, etc. 

During the meal our 1yo slept in my husband's arms, so I got all the food and was up and down a lot. Because it was a buffet and people were getting up a lot, I am sure this confused the kids more than the usual sit down and be served type of meal. Though we have been out with them before and their kids got up a lot, playing, and running, but we were at kid friendly places. (They just recently moved up here, so other than trips to visit them, we haven't gone out to meals much with them. This may be normal for them.)

I want to ask the girls what their solution to this situation is, (A) here we are at a boring restaurant, expected to sit down and they hate their food, add that to (B) other kids, we are with, are up and about. Situation A will happen again, with in-laws, etc., though our family respects tired children. Seldom do our children get up at restaurants; we usually bring tablets, crayons, etc. I don't want them to think this behavior is normal. I want to explain to them that adults go to dinner to enjoy conversation and food and don't appreciate distraction. Yet conflictingly, I don't mind them being up if we are the only ones there, or if it is a kid place.

We also have trips planned with our friends in the future; I am unsure what we plan on doing about food. I need to talk to my friend about our food plans during the trips. Unless she and I come up with a game plan, I want to avoid going to restaurants with them.

Ideas, critiques?
Stephanie

Joyce Fetteroll


On Sep 24, 2013, at 8:21 AM, Stephknee Selby wrote:

I want to explain to them that adults go to dinner to enjoy conversation
and food and don't appreciate distraction. Yet conflictingly, I don't
mind them being up if we are the only ones there, or if it is a kid place.

Most of this is learning that will be picked up over time. 

People build an understanding of the world through multiple experiences. One experience doesn't create a rule. One experience creates the possibility of a rule about how the world works. A theory. The next time a similar experience will either reinforce your kids' theory or create questions about why the differences. Some kids will ask! :-) Some kids will subconsciously know being uncertain is part of the process of learning about how the world works. Some kids will ask sometimes and let time take care of the others.   

The more kids experience, the richer their understanding of what rules match what situations. (Some kids are naturally more attuned to social rules so they'll grow a workable understanding faster. For some kids it will take longer.)

Kat liked to sprawl on the floor and on the table to eat when she was 4-ish. She never did it at a restaurant. She never did it at someone else's house. Part of her understanding the difference was that no one else was doing it ;-) (Not all kids are that aware of how others are behaving though.) If she had thought restaurant tables were for lying on, I would have said some form of, "Not here." If "Not here," wasn't enough, then she wasn't ready for restaurants and best to stay home until she was old enough to understand.

The coming up with theories, testing theories, coming up with better theories is a natural and probably the most important part of how we build an understanding of how the world works. Trust that they're watching and unconsciously seeking patterns, "That's always the same. That's sometimes the same. That's different because that other thing is different."

Help kids behave appropriately for a situation so they aren't bothering others. They *might* learn a rule about the situation from what you tell them but don't expect them to. (They might not understand a situation well enough to understand why the rule applies. Why people would willingly sit at a table before there is food or after it's gone is pretty baffling! ;-) ) Focus on your help being about not ruining the situation for other people. As a team, you're responsible for doing what your kids can't yet do. Choose not to go for now if it isn't possible for your team to be courteous.

Joyce

Amber Boggs

I may have a more radical viewpoint on the subject. But I wonder why so many people feel that activities such as restaurants stores etc. are meant for only the adults enjoyment. And that when we bring our children there it is strictly because we either have no choice or that we are just expecting them to go along with something that is for adults. Instead why do we not view these places as public places where everyone is allowed. Just because children are younger than adults does not mean they are less important and that there enjoyment of these places is less important. We eat out quite a bit, and I have never had a single complaint while at a restaurant. I also do not make my children sit still and act like statues. We do try to follow some social etiquettes such as not running around a restaurant acting like we are at a playground. I always try to get a booth for our family rather than chairs. This allows my toddlers the freedom to move a round across the booth under the booth etc. I can't expect a young child to sit still as long as I can Sit still so we try to find a common ground. They are allowed to move freely within the booth as long as they're not breaking things etc. They do play with each other, and sometimes get a little loud. We did not allow them to scream while in a restaurant, but we also do not make them whisper. Sometimes we will play with the condiments stacking them sometimes they play with iPods, the younger the child the harder it is for them to simply stay in one place. My kids have been seen sitting on top of the table, and generally being silly in a restaurant. Some people may look at my children and rolled her eyes. But they are not really disturbing anyone else, and they're definitely not hindering my ability to have fun. After all we are not just at the restaurant for my enjoyment but there's as well. Even if they are a little loud I do not worry about it. How many times have we all been to a restaurant sitting next to a table of adults who were laughing and talking loud amongst themselves. Why should my children be expected to act quieter then other adults around them? I also do not believe in the philosophy that if we do not teach our children to sit still and quiet had a restaurant when they are too that they will never be able to sit quietly at a restaurant when their 20. As a grow and mature they will start to understand when running around is appropriate and when sitting quietly is appropriate. My five-year-old son is already starting to sit down quietly in a booth. He will color play with his iPod talk with us etc. And we never set a hard line in the sand and made them sit still in a restaurant. Consequently my kids love going out to eat, and are not like so many kids that dread it because it is boring etc. We all have a fun time going to a restaurant together. And I can't tell you how many times I have been complimented on how good my kids are in restaurants.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 24, 2013, at 1:39 PM, Amber Boggs wrote:

> But I wonder why so many people feel that activities such as
> restaurants stores etc. are meant for only the adults enjoyment.

Some stores and restaurants are more child friendly than others. But I'm not living in an area of the US where restaurants and stores are meant only for adults. So I'm not sure what you're advocating.

There are though rules of courtesy so customers can peacefully coexist. Kids shouldn't be treating these places as playgrounds being so loud they're disrupting others, destructive and banging into people. Adults who act like that will be asked to leave. And parents shouldn't bring their kids into places if the kids are too wound up to let others enjoy being there.

> I also do not make my children sit still and act like statues.

But where did anyone suggest that? Parents who take their kids to quiet formal restaurants where such behavior would be expected aren't being respectful of who children are. Can you quote where someone suggested parents make their kids sit still and act like statues?

Stephknee said the restaurant was quiet. If people go to that particular restaurant expecting that, it's rude to spoil their time with loud children who are running around.

> Some people may look at my children
> and rolled her eyes.

You said, "I have never had a single complaint while at a restaurant." That *is* a complaint.

> We did not allow them to scream while in a restaurant, but we also do not make them whisper.

Is their loudness disrupting conversation at the table next to them? Then they're too loud.

> My kids have been seen sitting on top of the table, and generally
> being silly in a restaurant. ... But they are not really disturbing anyone else

I think many people would be disturbed to imagine there might have been butts on the table they were currently eating at.

> and they're definitely not hindering my ability to have fun.

You chose to bring them, so it's not a hindrance to you. But others didn't choose to have your kids there. Maybe some came to a particular restaurant knowing there were rarely kids there because they'd had a stressful day with their own.

If it's only your and your children's "ability to have fun" that you're using as a yardstick on how your kids behave, it's best to stay home. You should be thoughtful of others' enjoyment when you're in a public place.

> How many times have we all been to a restaurant sitting next to a
> table of adults who were laughing and talking loud amongst themselves.

If adults get too loud, if customers complain, the management will ask them to be quiet.

> Why should my children be expected to act quieter then other adults around them?

That's sounding reactionary. It's sounding like someone who was made to be quiet and who is now basically saying "Screw you! I can do whatever I want!" to the world.

That *is* a very common reaction kids have to control once they're out on their own.

> I also do not believe in the philosophy that if we do not teach
> our children to sit still and quiet had a restaurant when they are
> too that they will never be able to sit quietly at a restaurant
> when their 20.

No one *here* would argue that point, though. Especially not the teach part.

Kids can, though, be helped to fit into whatever atmosphere they're in for the enjoyment of everyone there. If they can't, then it's courteous to them and others to go where the kids would be more comfortable.

Joyce

Stephknee Selby

I've been deschooling for about three years, yet I'm still hiking!

Amber, this is exactly how we normally function with our children. We play games at the table and laugh, and we, too, receive compliments. We don't expect quiet, or boring. We enjoy being together. And we can be loud, but it's all together interacting. I did mention we normally get take out, but that happens when someone doesn't feel like going out. Our frequency is about once a week to a sit down, restaurant with the family and we frequent nicer places as well, not limited to the yucky food kid-geared places. I think our kids enjoy being out with us because we enjoy being together. Tablets are brought to add enjoyment ie if they are building in minecraft, or we'll all be in the same minecraft world. Or we are coloring together because we want to, it isn't there to placate but to give us things to do together. Right now, I think they don't get up, when alone with us, because they aren't getting bored.

The scenario with these friends change because the adults are interacting and there is expectation that since there are kids, the adults can talk and the kids will talk. And obviously, being snarky here, adults conversation is more important than the kids. At least this is how I am perceiving it.

I don't know how my friends are alone with their kids. But when we are together, they have bored kids running all over the place, they are barking to the kids to sit, to eat, to be quiet, etc. Rather than engaging with their kids, it's unpleasant for me, I can only imagine how it is for their kids. And then I feel awkward and socially pressured.

At home their eldest kept asking for game night, to include all of us, and he was repeatedly either denied or told not now. Once even told, we have kids over so you can play with them, so the adults can be together. And then I was told see he always wants to be with the adults. I did too as a kid, I loved together time, so I've encouraged that at my house.

This event, went beyond our table. This WAS running around the restaurant. This was parents battling kids, and me feeling awkward because I don't usually face this. I didn't & don't know what to do.

I feel like I was expecting too much, and wasn't relaxing and enjoying. My husband was OK, he held the baby and when the kids were under his feet, he pet their heads. I was up and down getting food for him and the girls and me, I was overwhelmed and I need to see this in a different light. I don't know if I need to talk to my friend, try to play with her kids and mine, let go and just have running kids when we go out? I imagine if no one was barking the way everyone was, stir crazy may not have happened. These are close friends, so it's more like a family situation. When I am with other unschooling or people we've met after having kids things are more relaxed and everyone is listening to their kids and engaging. These friends seem to not listen to their kids, it's becoming hard for me.

My mom recommended sticking to picnics with them.

Thanks again,
Stephanie

Stephknee Selby

Joyce, what you mention about others going out to enjoy the evening is what I want to respect.

We do enjoy going out with our lot, we do play at the table but it isn't loud enough to intrude on others, this was loud, this was intrusive. I was embarrassed.

I also do not enjoy hearing other parents nagging at their children when I am out enjoying a meal. It distracts me from my experience with my family.

Stephanie

On Sep 24, 2013 3:51 PM, "Joyce Fetteroll" <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
 


On Sep 24, 2013, at 1:39 PM, Amber Boggs wrote:

> But I wonder why so many people feel that activities such as
> restaurants stores etc. are meant for only the adults enjoyment.

Some stores and restaurants are more child friendly than others. But I'm not living in an area of the US where restaurants and stores are meant only for adults. So I'm not sure what you're advocating.

There are though rules of courtesy so customers can peacefully coexist. Kids shouldn't be treating these places as playgrounds being so loud they're disrupting others, destructive and banging into people. Adults who act like that will be asked to leave. And parents shouldn't bring their kids into places if the kids are too wound up to let others enjoy being there.

> I also do not make my children sit still and act like statues.

But where did anyone suggest that? Parents who take their kids to quiet formal restaurants where such behavior would be expected aren't being respectful of who children are. Can you quote where someone suggested parents make their kids sit still and act like statues?

Stephknee said the restaurant was quiet. If people go to that particular restaurant expecting that, it's rude to spoil their time with loud children who are running around.

> Some people may look at my children
> and rolled her eyes.

You said, "I have never had a single complaint while at a restaurant." That *is* a complaint.

> We did not allow them to scream while in a restaurant, but we also do not make them whisper.

Is their loudness disrupting conversation at the table next to them? Then they're too loud.

> My kids have been seen sitting on top of the table, and generally
> being silly in a restaurant. ... But they are not really disturbing anyone else

I think many people would be disturbed to imagine there might have been butts on the table they were currently eating at.

> and they're definitely not hindering my ability to have fun.

You chose to bring them, so it's not a hindrance to you. But others didn't choose to have your kids there. Maybe some came to a particular restaurant knowing there were rarely kids there because they'd had a stressful day with their own.

If it's only your and your children's "ability to have fun" that you're using as a yardstick on how your kids behave, it's best to stay home. You should be thoughtful of others' enjoyment when you're in a public place.

> How many times have we all been to a restaurant sitting next to a
> table of adults who were laughing and talking loud amongst themselves.

If adults get too loud, if customers complain, the management will ask them to be quiet.

> Why should my children be expected to act quieter then other adults around them?

That's sounding reactionary. It's sounding like someone who was made to be quiet and who is now basically saying "Screw you! I can do whatever I want!" to the world.

That *is* a very common reaction kids have to control once they're out on their own.

> I also do not believe in the philosophy that if we do not teach
> our children to sit still and quiet had a restaurant when they are
> too that they will never be able to sit quietly at a restaurant
> when their 20.

No one *here* would argue that point, though. Especially not the teach part.

Kids can, though, be helped to fit into whatever atmosphere they're in for the enjoyment of everyone there. If they can't, then it's courteous to them and others to go where the kids would be more comfortable.

Joyce

Stephknee Selby

Joyce, I like the comment about a team. This gives me some footing to use with my friend. She is very big on team activities, and I believe it will resonate well with her if I decline restaurants because our team isn't ready.

Joyce Fetteroll


On Sep 24, 2013, at 5:14 PM, Stephknee Selby wrote:

Joyce, I like the comment about a team.

I was channeling Sandra for that idea :-)

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

Maybe the next time your families get together you could have games planned for the benefit of the boy who wanted to play, and have good, easy in-the-house food already planned, too.

Part of the problem might have been planning as you went.

When the kids are older, maybe they could sit at a separate table (some of them) nearby, and then the conversations can be separate. We did that quite a bit as our kids got older and their friends went with us.

I didn't get the post this came from (oohhh.... yahoo.... get better, please), but saw it go through approval.
-=-Instead why do we not view these places as public places where everyone is allowed. -=-

They are owned by owners with intentions for their use, and who spend a LOT of time and attention and money on their atmosphere. While they might be open to th epublic, they are not the same as "public places."

And even public places (parks, streets) have rules and laws and expectations.

There's a time and a place for all kinds of different behaviors, and an empty restaurant at 2:00 p.m. might (might possibly) have different leeway than the same restaurant at dinnertime.

Parents can set a good example or a bad example. Unschooling should not be used as an exuse to behave thoughtlessly or recklessly, though.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-Joyce, I like the comment about a team. This gives me some footing to use with my friend. She is very big on team activities, and I believe it will resonate well with her if I decline restaurants because our team isn't ready.-=-

If they're not unschooling it might not make any sense to her.  It's about partnerships.    http://sandradodd.com/partners/child
She might not feel that her children are her partners.  

Maybe if a restaurant is a good idea, go when it's really empty.  Ask for a corner or side room, if possible.  Or go to a kid-friendly place.  The food won't be as good, but no food is very good with stress.


Sandra

<plaidpanties666@...>

 >>This event, went beyond our table. This WAS running around the restaurant. This was parents battling kids, and me feeling awkward because I don't usually face this. I didn't & don't know what to do.

I feel like I was expecting too much, and wasn't relaxing and enjoying.<<


I wouldn't have been able to relax and enjoy either - it doesn't sound relaxing or enjoyable, it sounds stressful. I often find meals with other (non-unschooling) families stressful whether out at a restaurant or at home, so I look for ways to avoid those kinds of shared meals. Picnics seem to work out better, and some birthday parties - although I've learned whose parties to avoid. 


>>These are close friends, so it's more like a family situation.... These friends seem to not listen to their kids, it's becoming hard for me.<<

It might help to scale back the amount of time you spend with them for awhile, at least until the kids are old enough that it's not such a big deal to have so much separation between kid stuff and adult stuff. At the least, be prepared to end  your days sooner - that seems like part of the stress, that it was the end of a long day and the kids needed to relax in their way, while adults wanted to relax in a different way. Take the experience as a chance to do some thinking and become clear about your own boundaries, so you'll be better placed to make a more thoughtful decision next time rather than giving in to the pressures of the moment. 


---Meredith

<plaidpanties666@...>

>> I often find meals with other (non-unschooling) families stressful <<

I want to clarify that, because it is becoming less true as my kids - and more importantly my friends' and relatives kids) get older. I'm very sensitive to the kind of "normal" parenting behavior around food and meals (you have to eat that, one more bite, I need you to eat a vegetable, it's really important to me that you eat something healthy with that...) but that sort of thing dissipates over the years. 


---Meredith



---In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote:

 >>This event, went beyond our table. This WAS running around the restaurant. This was parents battling kids, and me feeling awkward because I don't usually face this. I didn't & don't know what to do.

I feel like I was expecting too much, and wasn't relaxing and enjoying.<<


I wouldn't have been able to relax and enjoy either - it doesn't sound relaxing or enjoyable, it sounds stressful. I often find meals with other (non-unschooling) families stressful whether out at a restaurant or at home, so I look for ways to avoid those kinds of shared meals. Picnics seem to work out better, and some birthday parties - although I've learned whose parties to avoid. 


>>These are close friends, so it's more like a family situation.... These friends seem to not listen to their kids, it's becoming hard for me.<<

It might help to scale back the amount of time you spend with them for awhile, at least until the kids are old enough that it's not such a big deal to have so much separation between kid stuff and adult stuff. At the least, be prepared to end  your days sooner - that seems like part of the stress, that it was the end of a long day and the kids needed to relax in their way, while adults wanted to relax in a different way. Take the experience as a chance to do some thinking and become clear about your own boundaries, so you'll be better placed to make a more thoughtful decision next time rather than giving in to the pressures of the moment. 


---Meredith