Re: Gay Kids
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/14/2001 4:26:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
his dad is straight. It's sort of lying around the house.
I have a good friend named Emily who's sixteen and is the daughter of
another friend. Kathleen and David (Emily's parents) have made conscious
decisions NOT to assume their kids are straight. Kathleen told me this story:
Last year Emily was talking about these two kids she'd met, one male and one
female, that she'd immediately liked a lot. Kathleen, in good-matured-Mom
teasing, asked if she'd LIKED the boy. Em shrugged. THEN she asked if she'd
LIKED the girl, and Em blushed and smiled. I thought that was great...in the
course of natural Mom-banter she'd given Em the mesage it was okay WHOEVER
she liked.
Emily thought about homeschooling last year but decided to stick with school,
partly because she'd helped to found the Gay/Straight Alliance at school.
One more story: Other friends have a son named Gabe, and the whole family was
waiting from mid-adolescence for Gabe to come out...It was SO obvious! So,
the parents, grandparents and siblings were all anxious, because they wanted
to join PFLAG! He finally got around to coming out when he was 23. And was
shocked when everyone's reaction was..."Duh!"
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> >Well..since I'm offending people...here's another topic: Have any of youWell, in our family it's pretty casual, because Julian's moms are lebians and
> >folks thought about what if your kids are gay or lesbian? When you talk to
> >them about potential mates or futures, do you use exclusively heterosexual
> >terms? Would it bother you if your child WERE gay or lesbian.
>
> It wouldn't bother me at all. But I have wondered just how to bring it up
> in a way that says I don't expect that you are gay but it wouldn't bother
> me if you were.
>
his dad is straight. It's sort of lying around the house.
I have a good friend named Emily who's sixteen and is the daughter of
another friend. Kathleen and David (Emily's parents) have made conscious
decisions NOT to assume their kids are straight. Kathleen told me this story:
Last year Emily was talking about these two kids she'd met, one male and one
female, that she'd immediately liked a lot. Kathleen, in good-matured-Mom
teasing, asked if she'd LIKED the boy. Em shrugged. THEN she asked if she'd
LIKED the girl, and Em blushed and smiled. I thought that was great...in the
course of natural Mom-banter she'd given Em the mesage it was okay WHOEVER
she liked.
Emily thought about homeschooling last year but decided to stick with school,
partly because she'd helped to found the Gay/Straight Alliance at school.
One more story: Other friends have a son named Gabe, and the whole family was
waiting from mid-adolescence for Gabe to come out...It was SO obvious! So,
the parents, grandparents and siblings were all anxious, because they wanted
to join PFLAG! He finally got around to coming out when he was 23. And was
shocked when everyone's reaction was..."Duh!"
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>I had a friend like that in college. I think he really wanted to be
>One more story: Other friends have a son named Gabe, and the whole family was
>waiting from mid-adolescence for Gabe to come out...It was SO obvious! So,
>the parents, grandparents and siblings were all anxious, because they wanted
>to join PFLAG! He finally got around to coming out when he was 23. And was
>shocked when everyone's reaction was..."Duh!"
straight. He kept getting "crushes" on girls and did a bit of fairly
unsatisfying dating. All his friends knew, but he didn't come out for
several more years.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Joseph Fuerst
I know several people from my college frienda who seemed to be the only ones
that didn't realize they were gay....two are married with children now, in
their 30s. I'm still wondering when the issue will come to consciusness for
them!
S
that didn't realize they were gay....two are married with children now, in
their 30s. I'm still wondering when the issue will come to consciusness for
them!
S
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tia Leschke" <leschke@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Gay Kids
>
> >
> >One more story: Other friends have a son named Gabe, and the whole family
was
> >waiting from mid-adolescence for Gabe to come out...It was SO obvious!
So,
> >the parents, grandparents and siblings were all anxious, because they
wanted
> >to join PFLAG! He finally got around to coming out when he was 23. And
was
> >shocked when everyone's reaction was..."Duh!"
>
> I had a friend like that in college. I think he really wanted to be
> straight. He kept getting "crushes" on girls and did a bit of fairly
> unsatisfying dating. All his friends knew, but he didn't come out for
> several more years.
> Tia
>
> No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
> Eleanor Roosevelt
> *********************************************
> Tia Leschke
> leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Leslie
.....I think he really wanted to be
straight. Tia.......
I'm sure your right about that. The stigma surrounding being gay or lesbian is very intense. Everybody wants to be admired, respected, and accepted and being gay or lesbian ultimately means being marginalized and disrespected by a significant portion of our society.
When my closest friend left her husband the doctor for Mary-Ann, the magnificent basketball playing physical education instructor, she saw her social status plummet. People she had known for years passed her in the street shooting her a stern glance and turning the other way. Many of her lesbian and gay friends remain in the proverbial closet trying to maintain their dignity. This includes a principle of a Catholic school and the coach of a national basketball team. The support of friends and loved ones is great but unfortunately this does not change the reality of the general public attitude.
Boys are especially harsh in this regard! Being called gay is the #1 cut up in the school yard today. When a kid called my son gay boy in the fifth grade and I told the teacher and principle and they nonchalantly told me that the boys were not aware of the meaning! If they called a girl a slut etc...they would have faced a mandatory suspension!
Leslie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
straight. Tia.......
I'm sure your right about that. The stigma surrounding being gay or lesbian is very intense. Everybody wants to be admired, respected, and accepted and being gay or lesbian ultimately means being marginalized and disrespected by a significant portion of our society.
When my closest friend left her husband the doctor for Mary-Ann, the magnificent basketball playing physical education instructor, she saw her social status plummet. People she had known for years passed her in the street shooting her a stern glance and turning the other way. Many of her lesbian and gay friends remain in the proverbial closet trying to maintain their dignity. This includes a principle of a Catholic school and the coach of a national basketball team. The support of friends and loved ones is great but unfortunately this does not change the reality of the general public attitude.
Boys are especially harsh in this regard! Being called gay is the #1 cut up in the school yard today. When a kid called my son gay boy in the fifth grade and I told the teacher and principle and they nonchalantly told me that the boys were not aware of the meaning! If they called a girl a slut etc...they would have faced a mandatory suspension!
Leslie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Leslie
......I know several people from my college friends who seemed to be the only ones that didn't realize they were gay....two are married with children now, in
their 30s. I'm still wondering when the issue will come to consciusness for them! S........
I think it's very judgmental for one to assume that another is unaware of their motivations, desires, personal choices etc.. I'm afraid the roots of prejudice are found in such musings on the lives of others. There is a lot more to sexuality than straight or gay sex. It's doesn't have to be one or the other. I often wonder what the world of sex , relationships and family life would look like if we weren't programmed from such a limited Judean- Christian perspective. I wonder if we'd come to know the true meaning of cooperation, of empathy and shared responsibility, in such a world. The meaning of LOVE!
Leslie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
their 30s. I'm still wondering when the issue will come to consciusness for them! S........
I think it's very judgmental for one to assume that another is unaware of their motivations, desires, personal choices etc.. I'm afraid the roots of prejudice are found in such musings on the lives of others. There is a lot more to sexuality than straight or gay sex. It's doesn't have to be one or the other. I often wonder what the world of sex , relationships and family life would look like if we weren't programmed from such a limited Judean- Christian perspective. I wonder if we'd come to know the true meaning of cooperation, of empathy and shared responsibility, in such a world. The meaning of LOVE!
Leslie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/15/01 11:04:56 AM, leslie@... writes:
<< I think it's very judgmental for one to assume that another is unaware of
their motivations, desires, personal choices etc.. I'm afraid the roots of
prejudice are found in such musings on the lives of others. >>
Perhaps so, but we have a friend who, when he said "I've joined the Navy!"
the WHOLE of his friend-pool said "WHAT!??" And guess what? They discharged
him within months.
And now he's living in full "gay life style" (and owes me $75 for part of his
move to 'another city' to do this). But before he left he truly thought he
was a straight guy.
Nobody else did.
<<There is a lot more to sexuality than straight or gay sex. It's doesn't
have to be one or the other.>>
Quite true, but this guy was, as genders go, not on the male end of the scale
physically or tempermentally and that was obvious to every straight and gay
friend of mine who ever commented to me, and there were lots, because I had
an SCA student/teacher (once removed; complex) and musicial-performance
relationship with him and was a mentor in a couple of ways.
Lots of situations are NOT obvious or extreme. This one was.
Sandra
<< I think it's very judgmental for one to assume that another is unaware of
their motivations, desires, personal choices etc.. I'm afraid the roots of
prejudice are found in such musings on the lives of others. >>
Perhaps so, but we have a friend who, when he said "I've joined the Navy!"
the WHOLE of his friend-pool said "WHAT!??" And guess what? They discharged
him within months.
And now he's living in full "gay life style" (and owes me $75 for part of his
move to 'another city' to do this). But before he left he truly thought he
was a straight guy.
Nobody else did.
<<There is a lot more to sexuality than straight or gay sex. It's doesn't
have to be one or the other.>>
Quite true, but this guy was, as genders go, not on the male end of the scale
physically or tempermentally and that was obvious to every straight and gay
friend of mine who ever commented to me, and there were lots, because I had
an SCA student/teacher (once removed; complex) and musicial-performance
relationship with him and was a mentor in a couple of ways.
Lots of situations are NOT obvious or extreme. This one was.
Sandra
Joseph Fuerst
Perhaps we were somewhwat judgemental in our college days (my friends and
I). We're all still friends ...or try to be. One of the guys I referred to
married a wonderful lady and they have a beautiful happy family with four
adopted children. Knowing him and his family and the hapiness they share
has brought us all deeper in knowledge that a person's mannerisms, speech
patterns, etc, may not tell us all we think it does about sexuality. The
other one seems to have disappeared from our regular social gatherings. He
and his wife were both part of our college group of friends.
I apologize if this cames across as crass or shallow. We (my friends and
I) have all been able to talk about it openly and accect each other and our
life decisions....and grow in knowledge and awe of the mystery of life and
human behavior.
S
I). We're all still friends ...or try to be. One of the guys I referred to
married a wonderful lady and they have a beautiful happy family with four
adopted children. Knowing him and his family and the hapiness they share
has brought us all deeper in knowledge that a person's mannerisms, speech
patterns, etc, may not tell us all we think it does about sexuality. The
other one seems to have disappeared from our regular social gatherings. He
and his wife were both part of our college group of friends.
I apologize if this cames across as crass or shallow. We (my friends and
I) have all been able to talk about it openly and accect each other and our
life decisions....and grow in knowledge and awe of the mystery of life and
human behavior.
S
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leslie" <leslie@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Gay Kids
>
>
> ......I know several people from my college friends who seemed to be the
only ones that didn't realize they were gay....two are married with children
now, in
> their 30s. I'm still wondering when the issue will come to consciusness
for them! S........
>
> I think it's very judgmental for one to assume that another is unaware of
their motivations, desires, personal choices etc.. I'm afraid the roots of
prejudice are found in such musings on the lives of others. There is a lot
more to sexuality than straight or gay sex. It's doesn't have to be one or
the other. I often wonder what the world of sex , relationships and family
life would look like if we weren't programmed from such a limited Judean-
Christian perspective. I wonder if we'd come to know the true meaning of
cooperation, of empathy and shared responsibility, in such a world. The
meaning of LOVE!
>
> Leslie
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Joseph Fuerst
> Lots of situations are NOT obvious or extreme. This one was.In my case, I had a college prof who was gay. He was not fully open about
>
> Sandra
>
it (would've caused abig ruckus for some who sent there kids off to a
private Catholic college); but felt free to discuss it with some students
he developed friendships with. He certainly thought thought the two guys I
referred to are gay. Whenever I talk to him (once a yr or so), he asks if
T is still married...and wonders how the marriage can sustain this repressed
sexuality. I do know the prof maintain a long term relationship with a
married man. He doesn't think that is so necessary (to maintain a straight
front) for the next generation...or hopes not anyway. Though I wonder if
much has changed in this arena.
S
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/15/2001 6:09:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
issues when considering "orientation." One is Sexual Orientation -- where
you fall on the Kinsey scale about who you're attracted to.
The other is Gender Identification. This is where a lot of Transgendered
people fall. Even if they are not inclined to have sex reassignment surgery
or other treatment, they may feel more identified with the other gender. This
is where you get the girl who doesn't outgrow being a "tomboy" or a
feminine-seeming boy.
The research seems to be showing that these are separate issues. Sometimes
you'll get a feminine-identified guy who is straight, sometimes gay. Same for
girls.
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> In my case, I had a college prof who was gay. He was not fully open aboutThere's a lot of current research that says you have to look at two different
> it (would've caused abig ruckus for some who sent there kids off to a
> private Catholic college); but felt free to discuss it with some students
> he developed friendships with. He certainly thought thought the two guys I
> referred to are gay. Whenever I talk to him (once a yr or so), he asks if
> T is still married...and wonders how the marriage can sustain this repressed
> sexuality. I do know the prof maintain a long term relationship with a
> married man. He doesn't think that is so necessary (to maintain a straight
> front) for the next generation...or hopes not anyway. Though I wonder if
> much has changed in this arena.
>
issues when considering "orientation." One is Sexual Orientation -- where
you fall on the Kinsey scale about who you're attracted to.
The other is Gender Identification. This is where a lot of Transgendered
people fall. Even if they are not inclined to have sex reassignment surgery
or other treatment, they may feel more identified with the other gender. This
is where you get the girl who doesn't outgrow being a "tomboy" or a
feminine-seeming boy.
The research seems to be showing that these are separate issues. Sometimes
you'll get a feminine-identified guy who is straight, sometimes gay. Same for
girls.
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Leslie
.....Perhaps so, but we have a friend who, when he said "I've joined the Navy!"
the WHOLE of his friend-pool said "WHAT!??" And guess what? They discharged him within months.....
I presume Gay men aren't allowed in the US Navy but Gay men can have a sincere desire to join the navy, no?
.......And now he's living in full "gay life style".........
Again, I guess you mean he has sex with men exclusively? But I think a gay life style incorporates all of what a straight lifestyle might entail. Relationships, work, shopping, eating, grooming, going to the theatre, movies, concerts, galleries, including raising a family and kinky sex etc..! What are the details, other than sexual orientation, that one might ascribe particularly to gay men or lesbian women that preclude a "full gay life style". The lesbian women on this list are raising children, living a family life like the rest of us, being mothers. Are you thinking about promiscuous sexual activity? I'm sure you know that heterosexual people also engage in this kind of activity.
.........(But before he left he truly thought he was a straight guy.).........
I don't think it's fair or appropriate to assume what he "truly" thought, even if he espoused such information himself. None of us are privy to what another's truly thinking, there is always a subtext. The way we present ourselves to others is influenced by so many experiences and assumptions that may often be at odds with who we actually are, wish we were, or hope to become.
.........Nobody else did..................
This is my point! A person does not have to be actually told what others are thinking about them to be aware that there is an attitude of prevailing assumption and insinuation involved in their relationships. Gossip is never really a private matter, that's basically why it's such a negative behavior. Those being gossiped about are eventually negatively impacted. At some point the person your describing would have become aware of his image in the eyes of his peers and would have been compelled to try to adjust his image and or attempt to influence the way he was being perceived. Being a male, perceived as feminine or gay, is about as negative as it gets for a man in our society. I don't doubt that he may have truly wanted to believe he was someone else and that he tried to be the consummate man that his penis entitles him to be.
..........but this guy was, as genders go, not on the male end of the scale physically or tempermentally and that was obvious to every straight and gay friend of mine who ever commented to me, and there were lots, because I had
an SCA student/teacher (once removed; complex) and musicial-performance relationship with him and was a mentor in a couple of ways. Lots of situations are NOT obvious or extreme. This one was...........
Male and female stereotyping is what sets the stage for modeling role appropriation as adults. Is a father who cuddles his children, takes an active role in raising his kids, does laundry, cooks, grocery shops, cleans the house, stays at home with the kids while mom goes out to work, matches his shirt with his socks etc., displaying feminine behaviors. Is a woman or girl who likes to skateboard, play sports, hates dresses, doesn't wear make-up, doesn't want children, hates shopping malls etc., displaying male behaviors.
I'm just suggesting that we are all so immersed in our culture and have inevitably been brainwashed over the years in so many ways, really every way, and that we should always be vigilant to expose our prejudices and continually reevaluate and examine our world views. We are all, on this list, very diligent when it comes to education and critical analysis of schools and curriculum models and we need to apply this vigilance to all aspects of our lives including sexual stereotyping and gender identification especially as it applies to the perpetuation or bigotry.
Always learning,
Leslie
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the WHOLE of his friend-pool said "WHAT!??" And guess what? They discharged him within months.....
I presume Gay men aren't allowed in the US Navy but Gay men can have a sincere desire to join the navy, no?
.......And now he's living in full "gay life style".........
Again, I guess you mean he has sex with men exclusively? But I think a gay life style incorporates all of what a straight lifestyle might entail. Relationships, work, shopping, eating, grooming, going to the theatre, movies, concerts, galleries, including raising a family and kinky sex etc..! What are the details, other than sexual orientation, that one might ascribe particularly to gay men or lesbian women that preclude a "full gay life style". The lesbian women on this list are raising children, living a family life like the rest of us, being mothers. Are you thinking about promiscuous sexual activity? I'm sure you know that heterosexual people also engage in this kind of activity.
.........(But before he left he truly thought he was a straight guy.).........
I don't think it's fair or appropriate to assume what he "truly" thought, even if he espoused such information himself. None of us are privy to what another's truly thinking, there is always a subtext. The way we present ourselves to others is influenced by so many experiences and assumptions that may often be at odds with who we actually are, wish we were, or hope to become.
.........Nobody else did..................
This is my point! A person does not have to be actually told what others are thinking about them to be aware that there is an attitude of prevailing assumption and insinuation involved in their relationships. Gossip is never really a private matter, that's basically why it's such a negative behavior. Those being gossiped about are eventually negatively impacted. At some point the person your describing would have become aware of his image in the eyes of his peers and would have been compelled to try to adjust his image and or attempt to influence the way he was being perceived. Being a male, perceived as feminine or gay, is about as negative as it gets for a man in our society. I don't doubt that he may have truly wanted to believe he was someone else and that he tried to be the consummate man that his penis entitles him to be.
..........but this guy was, as genders go, not on the male end of the scale physically or tempermentally and that was obvious to every straight and gay friend of mine who ever commented to me, and there were lots, because I had
an SCA student/teacher (once removed; complex) and musicial-performance relationship with him and was a mentor in a couple of ways. Lots of situations are NOT obvious or extreme. This one was...........
Male and female stereotyping is what sets the stage for modeling role appropriation as adults. Is a father who cuddles his children, takes an active role in raising his kids, does laundry, cooks, grocery shops, cleans the house, stays at home with the kids while mom goes out to work, matches his shirt with his socks etc., displaying feminine behaviors. Is a woman or girl who likes to skateboard, play sports, hates dresses, doesn't wear make-up, doesn't want children, hates shopping malls etc., displaying male behaviors.
I'm just suggesting that we are all so immersed in our culture and have inevitably been brainwashed over the years in so many ways, really every way, and that we should always be vigilant to expose our prejudices and continually reevaluate and examine our world views. We are all, on this list, very diligent when it comes to education and critical analysis of schools and curriculum models and we need to apply this vigilance to all aspects of our lives including sexual stereotyping and gender identification especially as it applies to the perpetuation or bigotry.
Always learning,
Leslie
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/17/01 12:04:06 PM, leslie@... writes:
<< ......And now he's living in full "gay life style".........
Again, I guess you mean he has sex with men exclusively? But I think a gay
life style incorporates all of what a straight lifestyle might entail.
Relationships, work, shopping, eating, grooming, going to the theatre,
movies, concerts, galleries, including raising a family and kinky sex etc..!
<<Are you thinking about promiscuous sexual activity? I'm sure you know that
heterosexual people also engage in this kind of activity. >>
I'm sure I do.
No, I was thinking about joining gay support groups and going to gay bars and
having gay friends and subscribing to gay magazines and identifying himself
openly and publickly as gay to where his retired-military father disowned
him. (That joining the Navy just didn't take, as an attempt to please his
father.)
<<
I don't think it's fair or appropriate to assume what he "truly" thought,
even if he espoused such information himself. >>
Judging from conversations and commentary.
As far as I could tell, he truly thought...
And as I said, it wasn't a casual relationship. It was involved in an SCA
way (in such a way that most normal relationships never ever reach or try
to).
<<Being a male, perceived as feminine or gay, is about as negative as it gets
for a man in our society. I don't doubt that he may have truly wanted to
believe he was someone else and that he tried to be the consummate man that
his penis entitles him to be.
didn't thrill his dad. And despite the feedback he probably received there,
his homosexuality surprised him when he relaxed into it.
As far as I can tell. According to things he said.
"... and we need to apply this vigilance to all aspects of our lives
including sexual stereotyping and gender identification especially as it
applies to the perpetuation or bigotry. "
Well it does seem you're suggesting I'm ignorant and perpetuating bigotry,
but I don't feel that at all.
Sandra
<< ......And now he's living in full "gay life style".........
Again, I guess you mean he has sex with men exclusively? But I think a gay
life style incorporates all of what a straight lifestyle might entail.
Relationships, work, shopping, eating, grooming, going to the theatre,
movies, concerts, galleries, including raising a family and kinky sex etc..!
>>You did see the quotation marks, right?
<<Are you thinking about promiscuous sexual activity? I'm sure you know that
heterosexual people also engage in this kind of activity. >>
I'm sure I do.
No, I was thinking about joining gay support groups and going to gay bars and
having gay friends and subscribing to gay magazines and identifying himself
openly and publickly as gay to where his retired-military father disowned
him. (That joining the Navy just didn't take, as an attempt to please his
father.)
<<
I don't think it's fair or appropriate to assume what he "truly" thought,
even if he espoused such information himself. >>
Judging from conversations and commentary.
As far as I could tell, he truly thought...
And as I said, it wasn't a casual relationship. It was involved in an SCA
way (in such a way that most normal relationships never ever reach or try
to).
<<Being a male, perceived as feminine or gay, is about as negative as it gets
for a man in our society. I don't doubt that he may have truly wanted to
believe he was someone else and that he tried to be the consummate man that
his penis entitles him to be.
>>He was in high school, and took all possible music and theatre classes, which
didn't thrill his dad. And despite the feedback he probably received there,
his homosexuality surprised him when he relaxed into it.
As far as I can tell. According to things he said.
"... and we need to apply this vigilance to all aspects of our lives
including sexual stereotyping and gender identification especially as it
applies to the perpetuation or bigotry. "
Well it does seem you're suggesting I'm ignorant and perpetuating bigotry,
but I don't feel that at all.
Sandra
Susan Bundlie
on 12/17/01 3:02 PM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:
need to" language.
Susan
[email protected] wrote:
> "... and we need to apply this vigilance to all aspects of our livesOf course I agree with the general message, but somehow I balk at the "we
> including sexual stereotyping and gender identification especially as it
> applies to the perpetuation or bigotry. "
need to" language.
Susan
kayb85
In James Dobson's new book, "Bringing up Boys", he shares that
homosexual men practically never had a good relationship with their
fathers as children. It is so important for dads to be there, not
just physically but emotionally as well, actively participating in
their children's lives. It might be hard for some dads to share their
son's interests, especially when dad loves football and son loves
theatre, but it is vital to the son's developing manhood.
Sheila
homosexual men practically never had a good relationship with their
fathers as children. It is so important for dads to be there, not
just physically but emotionally as well, actively participating in
their children's lives. It might be hard for some dads to share their
son's interests, especially when dad loves football and son loves
theatre, but it is vital to the son's developing manhood.
Sheila
> He was in high school, and took all possible music and theatreclasses, which
> didn't thrill his dad.
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/01 1:03:34 AM, sheran@... writes:
<< In James Dobson's new book, "Bringing up Boys", he shares that
homosexual men practically never had a good relationship with their
fathers as children. >>
I think there's enough evidence these days to support the notion that
homosexuality is a biologically initiated preference, not the result of
insufficient or inadequate parenting, exposure to gay Scout leaders before
the age of 10, or excess red dye #40.
There are too many heterosexual men who would put their relationships with
their fathers in the ungood category for me to take this seriously. Nor the
overbearing mom theory. Nor the stance that homosexual men and women are so
because they are damaged.
Good grief. I had no father, a sexually abusive step-father, a distant
mother, and I'm still heterosexual, pay my taxes, and am kind to animals and
children. What's with that? ;-)
My friend, Patrick, has a good relationship with his dad (he's needed it).
He has a brother and a sister who are heterosexual. He is ... a good human
being. He's warm and kind with my kids -- and with me -- and during this
past year of really hard relationship issues, he's been an absolute rock.
He's learned how to be a rock, because coming out as a homosexual man in this
culture has burned and honed and cleansed his certitude about morality and
how we treat one another. He's learned the value of compassion and courage
in the face of amazing rudeness and meaness at the hands of people who
generally celebrate kindness as a virtue. It's an odd world.
Anyway. Sharing interests is nice. It's a bond. But it can't be forced
either direction as insurance, I wouldn't think. I've seen my kids' father
at the ballet....it's not something I'd wish on anyone else ;-)
Sharon
<< In James Dobson's new book, "Bringing up Boys", he shares that
homosexual men practically never had a good relationship with their
fathers as children. >>
I think there's enough evidence these days to support the notion that
homosexuality is a biologically initiated preference, not the result of
insufficient or inadequate parenting, exposure to gay Scout leaders before
the age of 10, or excess red dye #40.
There are too many heterosexual men who would put their relationships with
their fathers in the ungood category for me to take this seriously. Nor the
overbearing mom theory. Nor the stance that homosexual men and women are so
because they are damaged.
Good grief. I had no father, a sexually abusive step-father, a distant
mother, and I'm still heterosexual, pay my taxes, and am kind to animals and
children. What's with that? ;-)
My friend, Patrick, has a good relationship with his dad (he's needed it).
He has a brother and a sister who are heterosexual. He is ... a good human
being. He's warm and kind with my kids -- and with me -- and during this
past year of really hard relationship issues, he's been an absolute rock.
He's learned how to be a rock, because coming out as a homosexual man in this
culture has burned and honed and cleansed his certitude about morality and
how we treat one another. He's learned the value of compassion and courage
in the face of amazing rudeness and meaness at the hands of people who
generally celebrate kindness as a virtue. It's an odd world.
Anyway. Sharing interests is nice. It's a bond. But it can't be forced
either direction as insurance, I wouldn't think. I've seen my kids' father
at the ballet....it's not something I'd wish on anyone else ;-)
Sharon
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/18/2001 10:14:09 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
lives -- and Dobson is wrong about that. Being gay is not because of absent
or uninvolved fathers, or bad mothering. The childhood experiences of gay men
span everything from Traditional 50's style families to single parent
families, with caring, loving parents to abusive parents. Just like
heterosexual children.
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> In James Dobson's new book, "Bringing up Boys", he shares thatOf course it is important for fathers to be involved in their children's
> homosexual men practically never had a good relationship with their
> fathers as children. It is so important for dads to be there, not
> just physically but emotionally as well, actively participating in
> their children's lives. It might be hard for some dads to share their
> son's interests, especially when dad loves football and son loves
> theatre, but it is vital to the son's developing manhood.
> Sheila
>
>
lives -- and Dobson is wrong about that. Being gay is not because of absent
or uninvolved fathers, or bad mothering. The childhood experiences of gay men
span everything from Traditional 50's style families to single parent
families, with caring, loving parents to abusive parents. Just like
heterosexual children.
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joseph Fuerst
> > In James Dobson's new book, "Bringing up Boys", he shares thatAnd this is based on what? His opinion I presume. I think Dobson has some
> > homosexual men practically never had a good relationship with their
> > fathers as children.
useful things to say....BUT I rarely listen to or read anything of his
because I think he uses his title as *doctor* to espouse much of his
personal opinion as fact. And I often disagree with these unsubstantiated
opinions.
This seems to presume homosexuality is a choice and it's a parent's
responsibility to prevent it somehow. It doesn't even allow for the
"biological error" idea that Laura Schlessinger promotes(another who I think
mis-uses her title of "Dr.")
S
Tia Leschke
>In James Dobson's new book, "Bringing up Boys", he shares thatI'm curious as to where he gets his information. It's absolutely false in
>homosexual men practically never had a good relationship with their
>fathers as children.
every case I'm aware of. Sounds like he believes in the theory that sexual
orientation is a choice. I don't.
>It is so important for dads to be there, notThis is true regardless of any sexual orientation issues. They don't
>just physically but emotionally as well, actively participating in
>their children's lives. It might be hard for some dads to share their
>son's interests, especially when dad loves football and son loves
>theatre, but it is vital to the son's developing manhood.
actually have to share the same interests, but the parent needs to *value*
the child's interests and make an effort to support and facilitate those
interests.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[email protected]
<< I think there's enough evidence these days to support the notion that
homosexuality is a biologically initiated preference >>
Not enough to change the minds of those who care more what the Bible says.
But people pick and choose what of the Bible they will believe and cling to
and live by, no matter what any fundamentalist says. NONE of them go by the
whole Bible.
There are more prohibitions against usury in the Bible than against
homosexuality by far, but how many Christian families are adamant about not
using banks or savings and loans? There are, instead, churches that teach
that faith in God will make you financially successful.
The reason there are so many different denominations and sects of
fundamentalists (the number has grown steadily since the first protestants
left Europe) is that different congregations choose to focus on different
Biblical principles, some of the congregation gets offended, starts
fundraising (probably buying bonds or something else based on usury to make
the money safer and to collect some interest) and builds their own church,
with its own focus, which will offend its own future members one way or
another.
Sandra
homosexuality is a biologically initiated preference >>
Not enough to change the minds of those who care more what the Bible says.
But people pick and choose what of the Bible they will believe and cling to
and live by, no matter what any fundamentalist says. NONE of them go by the
whole Bible.
There are more prohibitions against usury in the Bible than against
homosexuality by far, but how many Christian families are adamant about not
using banks or savings and loans? There are, instead, churches that teach
that faith in God will make you financially successful.
The reason there are so many different denominations and sects of
fundamentalists (the number has grown steadily since the first protestants
left Europe) is that different congregations choose to focus on different
Biblical principles, some of the congregation gets offended, starts
fundraising (probably buying bonds or something else based on usury to make
the money safer and to collect some interest) and builds their own church,
with its own focus, which will offend its own future members one way or
another.
Sandra
Nanci Kuykendall
>There is a lot more to sexuality than straight or gayBravo!
>sex. It's doesn't have to be one or the other. I
>often wonder what the world of sex , relationships
>and family life would look like if we weren't
>programmed from such a limited Judean- Christian
>perspective. I wonder if we'd come to know the true
>meaning of cooperation, of empathy and shared
>responsibility, in such a world. The meaning of LOVE!
>Leslie
Nanci K.
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