Reading - When phonics doesn't make sense..?
<yeshi_khadro@...>
I was wondering if anyone else out there had a child that had difficulties learning to read using phonics. Pema has not been a willing reader even though being read to all the time. She is 11 now and her sister Bella is 5. Bella is wanting to learn to read and write, so we started doing activities with her (as she enjoys this type of learning). Pema wanted to join in and after a couple of activities, said herself that she has a hard time sounding out the words, that it doesn't make sense to her. This though makes sense to me regards to her difficulty in reading... At first I thought she just wasn't ready and perhaps that is still the case, however, what if it isn't something as simple as 'being ready'? I have only read a little this morning about other ways that people learn to read and came across 'auditory conceptual judgement deficit' being that some people (1/3 apparently) have a difficulty in processing and sounding out sounds inside of words... etc... Pema has been upset a few times before, totally out of the blue, about not being able to read well yet. She can recognise large words and small ones but can just as easily not recognise the difference between as and is and finds it hard to even sound these two letter words out... I would love some feedback, suggestions, thoughts about this all before I go flooding myself with all the literature available on the web about reading difficulties and become overwhelmed myself! > ) It also seems as though the alternatives have quite full on learning programs and being unschoolers this isn't exactly what we were after. Perhaps once we figure out what can help Pema learn to read more easily we can tailor that to suit her... Thanks in advance. Natarsha
Pam Sorooshian
My now-22 year old daughter, Rose, did not catch on to phonics for many
years. She picked up a LOT of words that she could recognize, but it was
based on pattern recognition, not sounding out. She was also quite good at
puzzles and other spatial stuff and later turned out to be quite at ease
with algebra and calculus. I think those things were connected for her. She
saw patterns and that dominated her way of learning.
She had learned enough words by sight to be able to read a lot by the time
she was 8 or so, but couldn't spell at all well until her mid-teens. She
understood that letters made sounds, and by 10 or 11 she was able to sound
words out, but even then she could not write or spell a word herself. She
would leave out letters, mix up the correct letters, and put in completely
irrelevant letters. For example, she would spell the word "home" as
"ahoemu" or "homne." These were not sounding out types of errors - that
would be more like spelling "work" as "werk." She'd spell "work" as
"whokr."
This continued for many years and I assumed she'd never be able to spell
well. It frustrated her a lot. Then in her early teens she began messaging
online with friends, who couldn't understand what she was saying. We
discovered that if she wrote the word down a bunch of times, she'd usually
get the right spelling in the mix and she'd recognize it as correct once
she'd written it down. She'd do that a lot and over time her spelling
improved. At 22 years old she is actually a really excellent speller.
So, long story, but the answer is yes I have a daughter who did not
understand phonics for many years.
She has no problem now - she's a highly successful college senior.
There are ways to help support this kind of learning. Remember that the
child is memorizing lots of words - so play around more with whole words
than with sounds of letters.
One thing I did that worked out really well with Rosie was to have an
envelope of her favorite words. She'd tell me what word she wanted to be
able to read and I'd write it on an index card and keep it in an envelope.
She'd pull out her envelope sometimes and go over the words in it.
Another thing was to play a game with action words. I'd write wordslike
"jump" and "sit" and "hop" and "bow" on index cards and mix them up. She'd
show them to me and I'd do the action and then I'd show them to her and
she'd do the actions. Started with just two words and built up to more.
Maybe that helps you see what I mean about supporting whole word learning,
since that is probably how she'll get into reading.
-pam
years. She picked up a LOT of words that she could recognize, but it was
based on pattern recognition, not sounding out. She was also quite good at
puzzles and other spatial stuff and later turned out to be quite at ease
with algebra and calculus. I think those things were connected for her. She
saw patterns and that dominated her way of learning.
She had learned enough words by sight to be able to read a lot by the time
she was 8 or so, but couldn't spell at all well until her mid-teens. She
understood that letters made sounds, and by 10 or 11 she was able to sound
words out, but even then she could not write or spell a word herself. She
would leave out letters, mix up the correct letters, and put in completely
irrelevant letters. For example, she would spell the word "home" as
"ahoemu" or "homne." These were not sounding out types of errors - that
would be more like spelling "work" as "werk." She'd spell "work" as
"whokr."
This continued for many years and I assumed she'd never be able to spell
well. It frustrated her a lot. Then in her early teens she began messaging
online with friends, who couldn't understand what she was saying. We
discovered that if she wrote the word down a bunch of times, she'd usually
get the right spelling in the mix and she'd recognize it as correct once
she'd written it down. She'd do that a lot and over time her spelling
improved. At 22 years old she is actually a really excellent speller.
So, long story, but the answer is yes I have a daughter who did not
understand phonics for many years.
She has no problem now - she's a highly successful college senior.
There are ways to help support this kind of learning. Remember that the
child is memorizing lots of words - so play around more with whole words
than with sounds of letters.
One thing I did that worked out really well with Rosie was to have an
envelope of her favorite words. She'd tell me what word she wanted to be
able to read and I'd write it on an index card and keep it in an envelope.
She'd pull out her envelope sometimes and go over the words in it.
Another thing was to play a game with action words. I'd write wordslike
"jump" and "sit" and "hop" and "bow" on index cards and mix them up. She'd
show them to me and I'd do the action and then I'd show them to her and
she'd do the actions. Started with just two words and built up to more.
Maybe that helps you see what I mean about supporting whole word learning,
since that is probably how she'll get into reading.
-pam
On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 5:52 PM, <yeshi_khadro@...> wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone else out there had a child that had difficulties
> learning to read using phonics.
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<plaidpanties666@...>
A fairly large number of people can't use phonics as a decoding strategy until after they've already learned to read - as you said, as many as 1/3 of the population. Many can "sound out" words and even sentences successfully but have no retention whatsoever - the effort of "sounding out" is so overwhelming the meaning of the words never makes it into memory. People who are insensitive to phonics in this way learn to read by building a lexicon of memorized words and phrases (much like the way many adults learn to write computer code). Over time they become more aware of how the specific "chunks" of language break down and fit together, and eventually that comes to include letter-sound correspondences as well. But All of that depends on "readiness" which is almost entirely biological and can't be hurried along. Reading readiness can happen as late as puberty/early adulthood, and people who are ready to read later are more likely to be insensitive to phonics. The best thing you can do for someone who is insensitive to phonics is reassure her that it is absolutely not necessary to sound things out and can be counter productive. Offer to read for her anything she wants read. If she wants to "work on reading" you can make (or buy) cards with words on them and play with forming short sentences - be sure to include names of people! Those are often easier to read as stand-alone words because they are meaningful in and of themselves. You might find that she can read short sentences and phrases without being able to identify all the individual words or letters - that's normal. What her mind is identifying is meaningful blocks of information: "on the table" is meaningful, but not "on" or "the" by themselves yet. But keep in mind that "working on reading" may not actually "work" - she might be able to plod through in a kind of dull, mechanical way without much fluency or comprehension. That's what "not ready" looks like. Reading isn't one skill, it involves a combination of skills and pathways which sometimes aren't all finished developing until early adulthood. ---Meredith --- In [email protected], <yeshi_khadro@...> wrote: I was wondering if anyone else out there had a child that had difficulties learning to read using phonics. Pema has not been a willing reader even though being read to all the time. She is 11 now and her sister Bella is 5. Bella is wanting to learn to read and write, so we started doing activities with her (as she enjoys this type of learning). Pema wanted to join in and after a couple of activities, said herself that she has a hard time sounding out the words, that it doesn't make sense to her. This though makes sense to me regards to her difficulty in reading... At first I thought she just wasn't ready and perhaps that is still the case, however, what if it isn't something as simple as 'being ready'? I have only read a little this morning about other ways that people learn to read and came across 'auditory conceptual judgement deficit' being that some people (1/3 apparently) have a difficulty in processing and sounding out sounds inside of words... etc... Pema has been upset a few times before, totally out of the blue, about not being able to read well yet. She can recognise large words and small ones but can just as easily not recognise the difference between as and is and finds it hard to even sound these two letter words out... I would love some feedback, suggestions, thoughts about this all before I go flooding myself with all the literature available on the web about reading difficulties and become overwhelmed myself! > ) It also seems as though the alternatives have quite full on learning programs and being unschoolers this isn't exactly what we were after. Perhaps once we figure out what can help Pema learn to read more easily we can tailor that to suit her... Thanks in advance. Natarsha
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 31, 2013, at 8:52 PM, <yeshi_khadro@...> <yeshi_khadro@...> wrote:
It might help to realize that many learning problems in school exist only because kids in school need to learn when the teachers are scheduled to teach them. If the kids aren't developmentally ready, if the kids learn in a different way than the schools are able to teach, the kids are labeled as defective.
Her learning style doesn't match school teaching style. That's all it means.
Joyce
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> came across 'auditory conceptual judgement deficit' being that some people (1/3 apparently) have a difficulty in processing and sounding out sounds inside of wordIf it's a trait that 1/3 of the people have, then it's not a deficit. It's part of human nature. It's only labeled a deficit because if schools can blame the child for not being able to learn "properly" then when the child doesn't learn it isn't the school's fault -- and the school will get lots more money for special instruction.
It might help to realize that many learning problems in school exist only because kids in school need to learn when the teachers are scheduled to teach them. If the kids aren't developmentally ready, if the kids learn in a different way than the schools are able to teach, the kids are labeled as defective.
Her learning style doesn't match school teaching style. That's all it means.
Joyce
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Heather Winterbottom
I have 2 boys with autism, and this issue is well known to us. Both actually "learned" some phonics, but couldn't apply the knowledge to reading. We needed to do a lot of multisensory work to just be more comfortable with the written word. my oldest used Montessori type materials which helped him immensely, with no pressure from me. Also, reading and typing things on the ipad that they were interested in was key. I love looking in the search history to see how he has spelled things!
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<plaidpanties666@...>
Fwiw, the autism spectrum doesn't seem to have any effect on whether a person is sensitive to phonics or not, nor the age of reading readiness. >> We needed to do a lot of multisensory work to just be more comfortable with the written word<< One of the biggest issues among parents of kids with autism is that they tend to over-focus on what kids "should" be doing - like paying attention to the written word when they're really more interested in other things. Part of that stems from a misconception that people with autism aren't interested in communication and/or are lacking empathy and part of it comes from the pressure on parents of atypical and disabled children to "normalize" them as much as possible. If kids aren't "comfortable with the written word" then look for what they Do enjoy, what they Are comfortable with, and help them pursue their interests in those directions - which may involve more sensory play, or more big-body play, or drawing, or playing video games. All of those things have elements that feed into literacy ... and mathematics and science and art for that matter. ---Meredith --- In [email protected], <heatherwinterbottom@...> wrote: I have 2 boys with autism, and this issue is well known to us. Both actually "learned" some phonics, but couldn't apply the knowledge to reading. We needed to do a lot of multisensory work to just be more comfortable with the written word. my oldest used Montessori type materials which helped him immensely, with no pressure from me. Also, reading and typing things on the ipad that they were interested in was key. I love looking in the search history to see how he has spelled things!
Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
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Annie Regan
My daughter, Caitlin, is nearly 9 and has learnt to read in the last few months. She has struggled with phonics and still doesn't sound out words, she has learnt to recognise a lot of words and can use those words to figure out new ones, but if she comes across a completely new word she usually asks for help. If she tries to sound it out herself she will make a guess based on a couple of the letters in the word, so for example if she saw 'helpful' she might say 'happily' - until recently she would then keep on reading if it didn't make sense in context, now she's starting to stop and say 'hang on, what else could that be?'
When her schooled friends started to learn to read at school they showed her how to sound words out using phonics and she tried to do it because they were doing it - it made no sense to her and she couldn't put the sounds together - she'd say 'b - a - t... tap?' and it really put her off reading for a couple of years because she wasn't getting anywhere with it and it didn't make any sense to her and it made reading seem really really hard. Gradually with no pressure from home and a few conversations when the time was right she was able to discover that there are other ways to learn to read. I used Pam's game with action words at one stage and she loved that and we played word other games whenever she wanted to and I relaxed about it and fended off questions from concerned relatives and read things for her when she asked.
She seemed to plateau for a long time - she had a set of words that she could read (dog, cat, everyone's names - but still not log and hat, say) and wasn't learning any new words, then suddenly earlier this year she became more interested, had a lot of play time with word families, then she started reading easy library books, then decided she wanted to read Harry Potter. I'd sit with her and she'd hold my hand and squeeze it if she didn't know a word and I'd tell her - at first I was reading every 2nd or 3rd word and she'd take ages to read a paragraph and be exhausted, now she can read a page at a time and I only help with 2 or 3 words a paragraph. It still tires her but she is loving it, and I now find her on the couch reading books to herself from time to time.
Its only in the last month or so that she's also started writing words down without asking how they are spelt - and I think she is trying to sound them out but there may also be extra letters in there like Pam's daughter did. I can usually figure the word out, although sometimes I had to ask. The other day she'd written a list of food that she was going to sell at her make-believe cafe and I was impressed with her attempts. Another homeschooling friend was visiting, and this girl is also a whole-word reader (was 'taught' to read at home and also had trouble with phonics) and she wasn't able to read Caitlin's list - which makes sense because she didn't recognise the words.
I think I am also a whole word reader. When I see a new word, I'm not able to quickly sound it out and say it on the spot, I really break it into chunks (it doesn't take me long but I always hesitate and it takes a moment of thinking, while I see my sister, and others, pronounce new words much more quickly (and can read words backwards easily and quickly, and I am not able to do that))
I think Caitlin's spelling will develop over time as she reads more and practices, and as Pam says, as she writes more for other people to read. I know for us, letting her know that phonics was not a necessary method to use to learn to read, that any way of figuring out what a word says/how a word is spelled, is fine, really helped her confidence and her enjoyment.
Annie
When her schooled friends started to learn to read at school they showed her how to sound words out using phonics and she tried to do it because they were doing it - it made no sense to her and she couldn't put the sounds together - she'd say 'b - a - t... tap?' and it really put her off reading for a couple of years because she wasn't getting anywhere with it and it didn't make any sense to her and it made reading seem really really hard. Gradually with no pressure from home and a few conversations when the time was right she was able to discover that there are other ways to learn to read. I used Pam's game with action words at one stage and she loved that and we played word other games whenever she wanted to and I relaxed about it and fended off questions from concerned relatives and read things for her when she asked.
She seemed to plateau for a long time - she had a set of words that she could read (dog, cat, everyone's names - but still not log and hat, say) and wasn't learning any new words, then suddenly earlier this year she became more interested, had a lot of play time with word families, then she started reading easy library books, then decided she wanted to read Harry Potter. I'd sit with her and she'd hold my hand and squeeze it if she didn't know a word and I'd tell her - at first I was reading every 2nd or 3rd word and she'd take ages to read a paragraph and be exhausted, now she can read a page at a time and I only help with 2 or 3 words a paragraph. It still tires her but she is loving it, and I now find her on the couch reading books to herself from time to time.
Its only in the last month or so that she's also started writing words down without asking how they are spelt - and I think she is trying to sound them out but there may also be extra letters in there like Pam's daughter did. I can usually figure the word out, although sometimes I had to ask. The other day she'd written a list of food that she was going to sell at her make-believe cafe and I was impressed with her attempts. Another homeschooling friend was visiting, and this girl is also a whole-word reader (was 'taught' to read at home and also had trouble with phonics) and she wasn't able to read Caitlin's list - which makes sense because she didn't recognise the words.
I think I am also a whole word reader. When I see a new word, I'm not able to quickly sound it out and say it on the spot, I really break it into chunks (it doesn't take me long but I always hesitate and it takes a moment of thinking, while I see my sister, and others, pronounce new words much more quickly (and can read words backwards easily and quickly, and I am not able to do that))
I think Caitlin's spelling will develop over time as she reads more and practices, and as Pam says, as she writes more for other people to read. I know for us, letting her know that phonics was not a necessary method to use to learn to read, that any way of figuring out what a word says/how a word is spelled, is fine, really helped her confidence and her enjoyment.
Annie
<yeshi_khadro@...>
Thank you all for the feedback. From reading the responses I can see that nothing has to change regards to how Pema is learning to read, no 'programs' or repetitive drudgery need be implemented in the name of 'helping'... I am almost ashamed to say that I had felt frustrated occasionally at how she was not able to sound out words easily, never being so at her or letting her see that, however it still wasn't nice feeling like that myself, especially about my own child...
I have made up some index cards as suggested for movement words which I am sure her sister will absolutely love playing, and most likely so will Pema. Although Bella does enjoy learning about the written word I am grateful for these suggestions so that I can make it more fun for her as well and hopefully Pema will begin to enjoy words too.
Feeling far more relaxed about this now, everything can continue to flow again peacefully, lighter and with joy! Whimsical!
Natarsha
I have made up some index cards as suggested for movement words which I am sure her sister will absolutely love playing, and most likely so will Pema. Although Bella does enjoy learning about the written word I am grateful for these suggestions so that I can make it more fun for her as well and hopefully Pema will begin to enjoy words too.
Feeling far more relaxed about this now, everything can continue to flow again peacefully, lighter and with joy! Whimsical!
Natarsha
Stephknee Selby
Lots of people whole word read and recognition is how they learned it. I bet if you got down to understanding their brain, it's as if once they have enough data, their brain without thought, assimilates the sounds for future reference for unknown words. Just as life experience, changes how respond to future events, without even thinking about the past.
When my first daughter was learning how to talk, she wanted to know every noun under the sun, she pointed to everything and said "this?" And was talking very well by 18 months. My next daughter, took much much longer, until almost 3, but she spoke in jibberish, that turned into complete sentences.
I read a book called Reading Reflex and her theory on how people learn to read is presented. I casted schooley aside and got to the meat. Sounds, we look at words and a sound comes out of our mouths. C-a-t is not three separate sounds, it's a blend of three sounds. First you blend the c-a then you add t. My kids liked to watch word world, and they go from all sounds being said and jump to the whole word c-a-t is cat. Some kids can make this jump easily, mine didn't. It was three separate sounds for her, that would get thrown into her head, and her brain would search for a word with some of those sounds, and anything could come out. I simply told her the show skipped a step, if they blended the first two first, then added the next sound it would be a whole lot easier. And I told her I wish the show presented it that way. This may or may not help your daughter.
I learned that there are multiple spellings for a particular sound, for instance long a, can be spelled 'ai', 'ae', 'a_e' etc. These ideas helped me. If my kids ask what a word is, I tell them. I don't ask them to sound it out. If a kid comes to me and asks me what "tail" is, I say the sound 'a' can be made lots of ways and ai is one of them, and I tell them the word.
My sentence speaker is wanting to learn to read now, I have no idea what her brain is going to do. Maybe me telling her 'a' can be spelled ai will help, or maybe it won't. But tail is still, tail, the 'a' sound can be spelled 'ai.'
The book helped me, however the book is written by someone who thinks you need to sit down and do specific exercises, games, etc. To hold a pen over the word and have the kid go through her approach. Obviously, you don't, nor do you even need her book, however the book gave me food for thought.
Stephanie