Re: Unschooling or child-led learning.
Yvonne Laborda
I want to say that my question was not good enough:
If they learn something as a side effect of what we do could it still be
considered unschooling? I mean they learn something about minerals because
I took them to a museum. They hadn't asked about minerals but I thought
they might enjoy the visit and they did...
2013/8/12 Yvonne Laborda <yvonnelaborda@...>
Yvonne Laborda.
www.welivelearning.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If they learn something as a side effect of what we do could it still be
considered unschooling? I mean they learn something about minerals because
I took them to a museum. They hadn't asked about minerals but I thought
they might enjoy the visit and they did...
2013/8/12 Yvonne Laborda <yvonnelaborda@...>
> I think we are unschooling our children. I have been reading and writing--
> about unschooling for a while. Here, in Spain, there are some families who
> say they unschool but who don't want to have and educatinal intentionality
> on their children... I said that unschooling had nothing to do with not
> offering to read a book or suggesting going somewhere ... I sometimes
> speak English to my children and now my 8 y daughter can speak and
> understand it very well. Some of these families said that my children
> hadn't asked to be spoken in English. They said that I had "forced" them to
> learn it by speaking to them. They have never complained about it , if so I
> would have stopped. It's true that I spoke to them in English so that they
> could learn it in a "natural" way. Now my son wants me to speak to him in
> French so that he can learn it as well.
>
> My question is that if we do things in order to "make" them learn
> something would, still, be considered unschooling. I said that what they
> were talking about was "hands off" or "child-led-learning".
>
> --
> Yvonne Laborda.
> www.welivelearning.blogspot.com
>
Yvonne Laborda.
www.welivelearning.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-If they learn something as a side effect of what we do could it still be
considered unschooling? I mean they learn something about minerals because
I took them to a museum. They hadn't asked about minerals but I thought
they might enjoy the visit and they did...-=-
Of course it's learning if they learn at the museum.
Where did you get the idea of waiting until children ask? I'm asking seriously, where. Who is putting out this very bad information?
I'm glad you came to this discussion, though, because we have many years of collected ideas of how to provide a rich life for your children so that soon the learning flow and flows all the time.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
http://learninghappens.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/unschooling-is-not-child-led-learning/
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
considered unschooling? I mean they learn something about minerals because
I took them to a museum. They hadn't asked about minerals but I thought
they might enjoy the visit and they did...-=-
Of course it's learning if they learn at the museum.
Where did you get the idea of waiting until children ask? I'm asking seriously, where. Who is putting out this very bad information?
I'm glad you came to this discussion, though, because we have many years of collected ideas of how to provide a rich life for your children so that soon the learning flow and flows all the time.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
http://learninghappens.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/unschooling-is-not-child-led-learning/
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Here, in Spain, there are some families who
say they unschool but who don't want to have and educational intentionality
on their children... -=-
I don't like the idea of "educational intentionality," either, but it's so stilted. It's so constructed.
I like to look at LEARNING! It's not "education."
And did I intentionally set out to create an environment in which my children could learn easily and joyfully?
Absolutely, from the beginning.
-=-I said that unschooling had nothing to do with not
offering to read a book or suggesting going somewhere ... -=-
I hope you will tell us where they got that idea. Maybe you could send some of these links to those who are suffering under bad advice. Their children will be suffering even more, if their parents are taking opportunities away from them out of fear that someone, somewhere, will say that they aren't unschoolers anymore if they take a child to a museum.
-=-I sometimes speak English to my children and now my 8 y daughter can speak and
understand it very well. Some of these families said that my children
hadn't asked to be spoken in English. They said that I had "forced" them to
learn it by speaking to them. -=-
Do those families honestly believe that anyone can force anyone to learn anything?
-=-They have never complained about it , if so I
would have stopped. It's true that I spoke to them in English so that they
could learn it in a "natural" way. Now my son wants me to speak to him in
French so that he can learn it as well.-=-
If people here say what you're doing is wonderful, or if they say it's terrible, don't listen to ANY of it.
If your children are happy and bilingual, don't worry what anyone else thinks. Speak all the French they want.
Movies and videos abound, in those languages, too, and I hope your uptight, learning-avoidant friends haven't disabled their children's access to changing the language track or subtitles.
Sandra
My question is that if we do things in order to "make" them learn
something would, still, be considered unschooling. I said that what they
were talking about was "hands off" or "child-led-learning".-=-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
say they unschool but who don't want to have and educational intentionality
on their children... -=-
I don't like the idea of "educational intentionality," either, but it's so stilted. It's so constructed.
I like to look at LEARNING! It's not "education."
And did I intentionally set out to create an environment in which my children could learn easily and joyfully?
Absolutely, from the beginning.
-=-I said that unschooling had nothing to do with not
offering to read a book or suggesting going somewhere ... -=-
I hope you will tell us where they got that idea. Maybe you could send some of these links to those who are suffering under bad advice. Their children will be suffering even more, if their parents are taking opportunities away from them out of fear that someone, somewhere, will say that they aren't unschoolers anymore if they take a child to a museum.
-=-I sometimes speak English to my children and now my 8 y daughter can speak and
understand it very well. Some of these families said that my children
hadn't asked to be spoken in English. They said that I had "forced" them to
learn it by speaking to them. -=-
Do those families honestly believe that anyone can force anyone to learn anything?
-=-They have never complained about it , if so I
would have stopped. It's true that I spoke to them in English so that they
could learn it in a "natural" way. Now my son wants me to speak to him in
French so that he can learn it as well.-=-
If people here say what you're doing is wonderful, or if they say it's terrible, don't listen to ANY of it.
If your children are happy and bilingual, don't worry what anyone else thinks. Speak all the French they want.
Movies and videos abound, in those languages, too, and I hope your uptight, learning-avoidant friends haven't disabled their children's access to changing the language track or subtitles.
Sandra
My question is that if we do things in order to "make" them learn
something would, still, be considered unschooling. I said that what they
were talking about was "hands off" or "child-led-learning".-=-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sandralynndodd
Yvonne,
Because your two posts would have been in two different topics and because you quoted the first one completely, I deleted the original.
Sandra
Because your two posts would have been in two different topics and because you quoted the first one completely, I deleted the original.
Sandra
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<I want to say that my question was not good enough:
If they learn something as a side effect of what we do could it still be
considered unschooling? I mean they learn something about minerals because
I took them to a museum. They hadn't asked about minerals but I thought
they might enjoy the visit and they did...>>>>>>
Did they want to go to the museum?
What if they learn about birds watching a TV show?
What if they learn to read playing video games?
Alex
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If they learn something as a side effect of what we do could it still be
considered unschooling? I mean they learn something about minerals because
I took them to a museum. They hadn't asked about minerals but I thought
they might enjoy the visit and they did...>>>>>>
Did they want to go to the museum?
What if they learn about birds watching a TV show?
What if they learn to read playing video games?
Alex
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Did they want to go to the museum?-=-
Joyce and I went to museums this summer. We didnt have kids with ut. Museums are FUN, especially if nobody is trying to "make" someone look at everything there, or answering irritating little trivia questions.
We did see school groups at some of those museums, with kids, who didn't want to be there, filling in worksheet-looking thing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce and I went to museums this summer. We didnt have kids with ut. Museums are FUN, especially if nobody is trying to "make" someone look at everything there, or answering irritating little trivia questions.
We did see school groups at some of those museums, with kids, who didn't want to be there, filling in worksheet-looking thing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sukaynalabboun
When I first took the girls out of school, we spent a rainy day at the museum. My oldest two daughters really enjoyed the Greek, Roman and Phonecian artifacts (we live in the Eastern Mediterranean). My youngest was pretty disinterested, which was ok- so the two of us wandered around chatting about whatever she thought was cool. And we left 'early' when she had enough- knowing that we could always come another day.
Later, she was inspired to ask for clay to make "barbie sarcophagi" and to spend a lot of time commenting on mosaic floor construction and the origin of the color red (all things she had seen but not really commented on at the museum).These led to so many other interesting things... This summer, she read all of her older sisters Percy Jackson books- and now is demanding a trip to the museum to see the statues (she identifies the Greek and Roman Gods/Goddesses and it all clicked for her!) I was surprised and a little pleased to see how much she gleaned from those 2 short trips- and how the interest was sparked in her own time and on her own terms.
My point is that it is really true, you cannot help but learn from your world. Thanks to Sandra and everyone else here who give such excellent advice.
Later, she was inspired to ask for clay to make "barbie sarcophagi" and to spend a lot of time commenting on mosaic floor construction and the origin of the color red (all things she had seen but not really commented on at the museum).These led to so many other interesting things... This summer, she read all of her older sisters Percy Jackson books- and now is demanding a trip to the museum to see the statues (she identifies the Greek and Roman Gods/Goddesses and it all clicked for her!) I was surprised and a little pleased to see how much she gleaned from those 2 short trips- and how the interest was sparked in her own time and on her own terms.
My point is that it is really true, you cannot help but learn from your world. Thanks to Sandra and everyone else here who give such excellent advice.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Did they want to go to the museum?-=-
>
> Joyce and I went to museums this summer. We didnt have kids with ut. Museums are FUN, especially if nobody is trying to "make" someone look at everything there, or answering irritating little trivia questions.
>
> We did see school groups at some of those museums, with kids, who didn't want to be there, filling in worksheet-looking thing.
>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 11, 2013, at 7:22 PM, Yvonne Laborda wrote:
If these "unschoolers" are saying they don't want to influence their children then they're repeating ideas that they don't understand as if they were rules. Their goal doesn't seem to be learning. Their goal seems to be avoiding influence.
When an idea is created as a rejection of another idea, the ideas tend to be less thoughtful and more reactionary. Choices that reject (school-like) influence will look much different than choices that support kids exploring and learning.
Do they have older kids who are happy and thriving? Are they expressing ideas they've seen work, ideas they've pulled apart and examined in public? Or are they repeating words that sound good?
There were a lot of hippy ideas from the 60's about raising children "naturally" in peace and love that sounded sweet and idealistic but were full of crap as far as helping kids live respectfully with others goes.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Here, in Spain, there are some families whoIsn't it okay if your husband says, "Hey, I heard about this movie I think you'd really like."?
> say they unschool but who don't want to have and educatinal intentionality
> on their children
If these "unschoolers" are saying they don't want to influence their children then they're repeating ideas that they don't understand as if they were rules. Their goal doesn't seem to be learning. Their goal seems to be avoiding influence.
When an idea is created as a rejection of another idea, the ideas tend to be less thoughtful and more reactionary. Choices that reject (school-like) influence will look much different than choices that support kids exploring and learning.
Do they have older kids who are happy and thriving? Are they expressing ideas they've seen work, ideas they've pulled apart and examined in public? Or are they repeating words that sound good?
There were a lot of hippy ideas from the 60's about raising children "naturally" in peace and love that sounded sweet and idealistic but were full of crap as far as helping kids live respectfully with others goes.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yvonne Laborda
Thanks so much for your replies.
I wrote about this in my blog:
http://welivelearning.blogspot.com.es/2012/11/unschooling-no-es-child-led-learning.HTML
After these discussions I had the need to write the above post:
http://www.crecerenlibertad.org/foro/index.php?p=/discussion/1147/child-led-learning-versus-unschooling-/p1
http://www.crecerenlibertad.org/foro/index.php?p=/discussion/1162/la-no-intencionalidad-/p1
They are in Spanish.
2013/8/12 Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
Yvonne Laborda.
www.welivelearning.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I wrote about this in my blog:
http://welivelearning.blogspot.com.es/2012/11/unschooling-no-es-child-led-learning.HTML
After these discussions I had the need to write the above post:
http://www.crecerenlibertad.org/foro/index.php?p=/discussion/1147/child-led-learning-versus-unschooling-/p1
http://www.crecerenlibertad.org/foro/index.php?p=/discussion/1162/la-no-intencionalidad-/p1
They are in Spanish.
2013/8/12 Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
> **--
>
>
>
> On Aug 11, 2013, at 7:22 PM, Yvonne Laborda wrote:
>
> > Here, in Spain, there are some families who
> > say they unschool but who don't want to have and educatinal
> intentionality
> > on their children
>
> Isn't it okay if your husband says, "Hey, I heard about this movie I think
> you'd really like."?
>
> If these "unschoolers" are saying they don't want to influence their
> children then they're repeating ideas that they don't understand as if they
> were rules. Their goal doesn't seem to be learning. Their goal seems to be
> avoiding influence.
>
> When an idea is created as a rejection of another idea, the ideas tend to
> be less thoughtful and more reactionary. Choices that reject (school-like)
> influence will look much different than choices that support kids exploring
> and learning.
>
> Do they have older kids who are happy and thriving? Are they expressing
> ideas they've seen work, ideas they've pulled apart and examined in public?
> Or are they repeating words that sound good?
>
> There were a lot of hippy ideas from the 60's about raising children
> "naturally" in peace and love that sounded sweet and idealistic but were
> full of crap as far as helping kids live respectfully with others goes.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
Yvonne Laborda.
www.welivelearning.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yvonne Laborda
the link again:
http://welivelearning.blogspot.com.es/2012/11/unschooling-no-es-child-led-learning.html
2013/8/12 Yvonne Laborda <yvonnelaborda@...>
Yvonne Laborda.
www.welivelearning.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://welivelearning.blogspot.com.es/2012/11/unschooling-no-es-child-led-learning.html
2013/8/12 Yvonne Laborda <yvonnelaborda@...>
> Thanks so much for your replies.--
>
> I wrote about this in my blog:
> http://welivelearning.blogspot.com.es/2012/11/unschooling-no-es-child-led-learning.HTML
>
> After these discussions I had the need to write the above post:
> http://www.crecerenlibertad.org/foro/index.php?p=/discussion/1147/child-led-learning-versus-unschooling-/p1
>
>
> http://www.crecerenlibertad.org/foro/index.php?p=/discussion/1162/la-no-intencionalidad-/p1
>
>
> They are in Spanish.
>
>
>
>
> 2013/8/12 Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
>
>> **
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 11, 2013, at 7:22 PM, Yvonne Laborda wrote:
>>
>> > Here, in Spain, there are some families who
>> > say they unschool but who don't want to have and educatinal
>> intentionality
>> > on their children
>>
>> Isn't it okay if your husband says, "Hey, I heard about this movie I
>> think you'd really like."?
>>
>> If these "unschoolers" are saying they don't want to influence their
>> children then they're repeating ideas that they don't understand as if they
>> were rules. Their goal doesn't seem to be learning. Their goal seems to be
>> avoiding influence.
>>
>> When an idea is created as a rejection of another idea, the ideas tend to
>> be less thoughtful and more reactionary. Choices that reject (school-like)
>> influence will look much different than choices that support kids exploring
>> and learning.
>>
>> Do they have older kids who are happy and thriving? Are they expressing
>> ideas they've seen work, ideas they've pulled apart and examined in public?
>> Or are they repeating words that sound good?
>>
>> There were a lot of hippy ideas from the 60's about raising children
>> "naturally" in peace and love that sounded sweet and idealistic but were
>> full of crap as far as helping kids live respectfully with others goes.
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Yvonne Laborda.
> www.welivelearning.blogspot.com
>
Yvonne Laborda.
www.welivelearning.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Yvonne Laborda <yvonnelaborda@...> wrote:
Here's a good place to do some reading about how learning happens:
http://sandradodd.com/connections/
http://sandradodd.com/day/presidents
> If they learn something as a side effect of what we do could it still beA great deal of learning happens as a kind of side effect! It's one of the reasons unschooling works - learning isn't nearly as straightforward as schools and lesson plans can make it seem. Ideas swirl from one to the next and all of a sudden you've learned something.
> considered unschooling?
Here's a good place to do some reading about how learning happens:
http://sandradodd.com/connections/
> I mean they learn something about minerals becauseThat reminds me of one of my favorite Sandra stories:
> I took them to a museum. They hadn't asked about minerals but I thought
> they might enjoy the visit and they did...
http://sandradodd.com/day/presidents
red_dragonflies
--- In [email protected], Yvonne Laborda <yvonnelaborda@...> wrote:
A few short years ago, when we had just begun to deschool and start learning about unschooling, we regularly met with a group of unschoolers. At one such meeting at a park, one of the moms mentioned the possibility of speaking and playing games in different languages on different days (most of the families had at least one parent from another country). I mentioned an activity or reading game or something that I had done when I taught my daughter, Ona, and another girl her age English classes a couple of years before. (The girls parents had hired me for the classes and Ona went along as she and the girl were friends and enjoyed playing the games together.) One of the mothers told me in a somewhat critical tone how her mother tongue was much more difficult to read than English and her son had learned without her teaching him anything. The irony was that she said all of this as she and some of the other moms were sitting at a picnic table, making those little Montessori sandpaper letters for her daughter and the other younger kids.
As the group got larger, the discussions about theory took up much more time in our e-mail group than messages about when and where to meet next. While I was not in agreement with a lot that was said, I found that those lengthy discussions about theory and labels (which often didn't coincide with what everybody actually did) and, later, who should and shouldn't be allowed in the group because of their views, exhausted me and took away from time I could spend with my kids, the whole reason I was involved in the group in the first place. The purpose of the group was, after all, for my kids to meet up and hang out with their kids, right? Simple. Toward the end I really didn't write much at all and was much happier for it. I would often simply send a link to an appropriate page on Sandra's site. :) I eventually stopped reading altogether.
The group no longer exists. Some families have moved away. Many have put their kids in school--Montessori, Waldorf, or whatever. Although we don't agree on food choices, not limiting screen time, etc., some of them are still dear friends. But I've learned I don't need them to agree with me for my family to be happy and learning.
I guess I've said all of that to say this: What do you guys think is the best way to handle people judging you because of bad advice they've been given? While it's good to want to point other people in the right direction, or at least see something from your point of view, especially if they are giving you a hard time about what you do, isn't it futile and even harmful to yourself to take the disagreements to heart and spend so much energy on them?
>I also live in Spain (and yes, there is a fair bit of the "you are manipulating your kid" mentality, and I too wonder where it comes from, maybe reactionary to the strict, traditional school mentality here) and am registered on the "crecerenlibertad" site, but almost never stop by the forum and have a look, so I followed Yvonne's link. I honestly didn't read all of the posts, and maybe it's a mistake, but according to the date on the discussion, the two threads are from this past fall. What stood out for me though was how several posters on both sides of the heated discussion seemed to feel offended and get defensive, making everything escalate even more, with the same arguments repeated again and again. That lengthy discussion probably took a lot of energy that could have been better spent elsewhere.
> Thanks so much for your replies.
>
> I wrote about this in my blog:
> http://welivelearning.blogspot.com.es/2012/11/unschooling-no-es-child-led-learning.HTML
>
> After these discussions I had the need to write the above post:
> http://www.crecerenlibertad.org/foro/index.php?p=/discussion/1147/child-led-learning-versus-unschooling-/p1
>
> http://www.crecerenlibertad.org/foro/index.php?p=/discussion/1162/la-no-intencionalidad-/p1
>
>
> They are in Spanish.
A few short years ago, when we had just begun to deschool and start learning about unschooling, we regularly met with a group of unschoolers. At one such meeting at a park, one of the moms mentioned the possibility of speaking and playing games in different languages on different days (most of the families had at least one parent from another country). I mentioned an activity or reading game or something that I had done when I taught my daughter, Ona, and another girl her age English classes a couple of years before. (The girls parents had hired me for the classes and Ona went along as she and the girl were friends and enjoyed playing the games together.) One of the mothers told me in a somewhat critical tone how her mother tongue was much more difficult to read than English and her son had learned without her teaching him anything. The irony was that she said all of this as she and some of the other moms were sitting at a picnic table, making those little Montessori sandpaper letters for her daughter and the other younger kids.
As the group got larger, the discussions about theory took up much more time in our e-mail group than messages about when and where to meet next. While I was not in agreement with a lot that was said, I found that those lengthy discussions about theory and labels (which often didn't coincide with what everybody actually did) and, later, who should and shouldn't be allowed in the group because of their views, exhausted me and took away from time I could spend with my kids, the whole reason I was involved in the group in the first place. The purpose of the group was, after all, for my kids to meet up and hang out with their kids, right? Simple. Toward the end I really didn't write much at all and was much happier for it. I would often simply send a link to an appropriate page on Sandra's site. :) I eventually stopped reading altogether.
The group no longer exists. Some families have moved away. Many have put their kids in school--Montessori, Waldorf, or whatever. Although we don't agree on food choices, not limiting screen time, etc., some of them are still dear friends. But I've learned I don't need them to agree with me for my family to be happy and learning.
I guess I've said all of that to say this: What do you guys think is the best way to handle people judging you because of bad advice they've been given? While it's good to want to point other people in the right direction, or at least see something from your point of view, especially if they are giving you a hard time about what you do, isn't it futile and even harmful to yourself to take the disagreements to heart and spend so much energy on them?
red_dragonflies
So sorry! I think I forgot to sign my post!
Renee Hutchins
Renee Hutchins