Integrity
Sandra Dodd
This is presented anonymously. Some of the post was insufficiently philosophical and impersonal. If we can discuss this without any names used in a negative fashion, I'm willing to have the discussion.
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I have been greatly inspired in my unschooling journey... but I would like to know that the people I am inspired by are actually authentic.
I would like to know if a person is presenting a true picture of themselves.
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I routinely question the use of "authenticity" about people. It's just not a term I like.
I like "integrity." It doesn't mean the same thing; I'm not saying it's a replacement term, but it might be a better way to consider whether a person is trustworthy (if that's the question).
Sandra
=======================
I have been greatly inspired in my unschooling journey... but I would like to know that the people I am inspired by are actually authentic.
I would like to know if a person is presenting a true picture of themselves.
=======================
I routinely question the use of "authenticity" about people. It's just not a term I like.
I like "integrity." It doesn't mean the same thing; I'm not saying it's a replacement term, but it might be a better way to consider whether a person is trustworthy (if that's the question).
Sandra
Pam Sorooshian
I think the question here is about people who are actually faking... as in
putting up the pretense of having a joyful unschooling family when, in
fact, they are secretly not living in the way that they claim.
I think the word "credibility" is probably what the question is more about,
though. How does a person assess the credibility of a speaker/writer?
Often, there is no way to actually know about the integrity or credibility
of a writer or speaker. So all you have are their ideas.
The main thing is to always think for yourself. Don't look for some plan,
system, method, program or anything at all to adopt. Look for ideas that
make you think - loot to speakers/writers for inspiration, yes, but mainly
rub their ideas up against your own, test them, analyze them, compare them
to your own sense of reality. Listen/read, try, observe, think, adjust.
Gravitate toward those unschooling speakers and writers whose speaking and
writing challenges and helps you think more clearly for yourself.
-pam
putting up the pretense of having a joyful unschooling family when, in
fact, they are secretly not living in the way that they claim.
I think the word "credibility" is probably what the question is more about,
though. How does a person assess the credibility of a speaker/writer?
Often, there is no way to actually know about the integrity or credibility
of a writer or speaker. So all you have are their ideas.
The main thing is to always think for yourself. Don't look for some plan,
system, method, program or anything at all to adopt. Look for ideas that
make you think - loot to speakers/writers for inspiration, yes, but mainly
rub their ideas up against your own, test them, analyze them, compare them
to your own sense of reality. Listen/read, try, observe, think, adjust.
Gravitate toward those unschooling speakers and writers whose speaking and
writing challenges and helps you think more clearly for yourself.
-pam
>>>I have been greatly inspired in my unschooling journey... but I would[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> like to know that the people I am inspired by are actually authentic.
>
> I would like to know if a person is presenting a true picture of
> themselves.
> =======================
>
> I routinely question the use of "authenticity" about people. It's just
> not a term I like.
>
> I like "integrity." It doesn't mean the same thing; I'm not saying it's a
> replacement term, but it might be a better way to consider whether a person
> is trustworthy (if that's the question).
>
> Sandra>>>>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=- Look for ideas that make you think - loot to speakers/writers for inspiration-=-
Look to speakers?
Some people loot speakers and writers for their ideas, but I don't think that's what Pam meant. :-)
-=-I think the word "credibility" is probably what the question is more about,
though. How does a person assess the credibility of a speaker/writer?-=-
Maybe so. But if someone is saying things that are credible (feasible, not incredible), I think that's a lighter measure than whether the person has proven to be dependable. Not just potentially, theoretically dependable.
Or maybe "credibility" as politicians have it�something to have and perhaps to lose�is different from what I'm thinking.
Joyce and spoke today, and yesterday, in front of people who haven't met our kids. Julie and James have met Marty and Holly. I think nobody there has met Kirby, or Kat Fetteroll. Perhaps because I had met Kat and Joyce had met Kirby, we could vouch for each other. :-)
There's something to be said for consistency and longevity, I think, in the plus-column of creadability, creditability, credit.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Look to speakers?
Some people loot speakers and writers for their ideas, but I don't think that's what Pam meant. :-)
-=-I think the word "credibility" is probably what the question is more about,
though. How does a person assess the credibility of a speaker/writer?-=-
Maybe so. But if someone is saying things that are credible (feasible, not incredible), I think that's a lighter measure than whether the person has proven to be dependable. Not just potentially, theoretically dependable.
Or maybe "credibility" as politicians have it�something to have and perhaps to lose�is different from what I'm thinking.
Joyce and spoke today, and yesterday, in front of people who haven't met our kids. Julie and James have met Marty and Holly. I think nobody there has met Kirby, or Kat Fetteroll. Perhaps because I had met Kat and Joyce had met Kirby, we could vouch for each other. :-)
There's something to be said for consistency and longevity, I think, in the plus-column of creadability, creditability, credit.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
The original writer (anonymous now) followed up a bit:
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When you live in a different country from someone with little chance of meeting them face to face, you rely on their integrity in presenting themselves truthfully on the Internet.
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Today I met people in a different country. There are lots of people in the U.S. I haven't met, so "another country" isn't always a valid barrier.
I'm doing a series of interviews for The Homeschooler Magazine. Three have been published, and one has been submitted. They're linked here. http://sandradodd.com/hsc/
If someone knows and trusts me, they might then trust what I say about Joyce Fetteroll, Pam Laricchia, and Schuyler Waynforth. Sometimes association can be part of a person's repute. Who respects that person and will spend time with them? Who recommends the person, and why?
But it's for each person to decide who they respect, for whatever reasons they choose. Some people respect someone who never uses bad language, or is the same religion, or is honest. Different people have different criteria.
Sandra
----------------
When you live in a different country from someone with little chance of meeting them face to face, you rely on their integrity in presenting themselves truthfully on the Internet.
-----------------
Today I met people in a different country. There are lots of people in the U.S. I haven't met, so "another country" isn't always a valid barrier.
I'm doing a series of interviews for The Homeschooler Magazine. Three have been published, and one has been submitted. They're linked here. http://sandradodd.com/hsc/
If someone knows and trusts me, they might then trust what I say about Joyce Fetteroll, Pam Laricchia, and Schuyler Waynforth. Sometimes association can be part of a person's repute. Who respects that person and will spend time with them? Who recommends the person, and why?
But it's for each person to decide who they respect, for whatever reasons they choose. Some people respect someone who never uses bad language, or is the same religion, or is honest. Different people have different criteria.
Sandra
Pam Sorooshian
On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> credible (feasible, not incredible),>>>Credible as in believable and trustworthy, not feasible.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I misspelled a word. "Creadability" wasn't real. Credibility, I meant.
There's something to be said for consistency and longevity, I think, in the plus-column of credability, creditability, credit.
That's what I wrote, and was trying to show that there's a set of ideas that sound the same.
"Creditable" means "to one's credit." A thing (an action, a statement) that increases a person's... standing, reputation, "points."
"Credible" is vague and can include simply whether a story seems believable. But journalistically, some sources are more credible than others. Some sources have earned more "credence."
http://thesaurus.com/browse/credence
Sandra
There's something to be said for consistency and longevity, I think, in the plus-column of credability, creditability, credit.
That's what I wrote, and was trying to show that there's a set of ideas that sound the same.
"Creditable" means "to one's credit." A thing (an action, a statement) that increases a person's... standing, reputation, "points."
"Credible" is vague and can include simply whether a story seems believable. But journalistically, some sources are more credible than others. Some sources have earned more "credence."
http://thesaurus.com/browse/credence
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
*** I would like to know if a person is presenting a true picture of themselves. ***
I'm thinking back to the early AOL days when most unschoolers didn't know each other and most had young kids. You couldn't know if an unschooler was presenting a true picture. And unschoolers were only reporting what was working with younger kids, like learning to read. There weren't enough grown unschooled kids to know for sure that they could get into college or that they'd turn into decent people. There was no proof of the outcome.
What was important was whether the ideas held together logically. *And* whether unschoolers were independently reporting similar results. *And*, where the results were different, whether that unschooler would allow her "experiment" to be pulled pulled apart and examined to see why the results were different.
When data gathering and analysis is the basis for decision making, if one person isn't presenting a true picture, it doesn't matter. The emerging truth doesn't depend on one person. It depends on many people showing consistent results. It depends on being able to look at what's going on when the results are different.
When integrity matters for decision making, is when you base your decisions on the ideas of one person such as when you can't analyze any data to see if what they're saying holds together. Or when you don't care about proof and care more about being inspired.
The problem with following one person's ideas is they can say inspiring words that sound true. If what they say has a lot of emotional resonance, proof that it'll work doesn't seem important. It *feels* like it will work.
For me, that's the definition of guru. Guru can mean expert or whiz, but, for me, what sets guru apart is the element of spiritual inspiration. People go to hear gurus to get inspired.
Gurus don't need proof. Their worth (as gurus) comes from how well they can arouse emotions and make people feel good about an idea.
Many people do make decisions based on emotion, on what feels right. That's not bad. Analytical decision making is better for some things. Emotional decision making is better for other things. But emotional decision makers are highly vulnerable to gurus who can be inspiring without being true.
What we've been doing on the various forums that Sandra keeps focused and on topic is analyzing everyone's experiment. The data is all here. More comes in all the time. There's 70,000+ messages in the archives that can be mined for more. There's more on the Unschooling Discussion lists (that have fallen quiet). Anyone can analyze the data, pull it apart, ask questions.
Where people presenting a true picture matters *here* is if someone doesn't want to analyze data, just wants to trust what's being said is true.
I don't think that's a good use of these forums. But *because* the members report consistent results *and* allow what they're doing to be pulled apart, because the regular posters have been consistent with what they say about their lives over the years, because some have made themselves and their families available for others to see in real life it can be used that way.
Sandra is who she presents herself as. I've met her many times, been to her house, met all her kids. But the integrity of what's said here doesn't *depend* on Sandra presenting a true picture of herself because it's based on data that's been subject to analysis and that anyone can also analyze themselves. Sandra's value, as far as the integrity of what's read here is concerned, is in maintaining an atmosphere where what's posted is scrutinized and questioned and kept on topic. So people *can* trust what's read here without analyzing for themselves. But that isn't encouraged.
On the other hand, if someone is following one person because their words are emotionally stirring, it's very easy to get sucked in by someone who isn't painting a true picture. That's the big fat downside of depending on a person rather than data and thoughtful analysis. The best way avoid being surprised by gurus is to not follow gurus and instead frequent places where thoughtful analysis is the norm and do your own thinking and analysis.
Joyce
I'm thinking back to the early AOL days when most unschoolers didn't know each other and most had young kids. You couldn't know if an unschooler was presenting a true picture. And unschoolers were only reporting what was working with younger kids, like learning to read. There weren't enough grown unschooled kids to know for sure that they could get into college or that they'd turn into decent people. There was no proof of the outcome.
What was important was whether the ideas held together logically. *And* whether unschoolers were independently reporting similar results. *And*, where the results were different, whether that unschooler would allow her "experiment" to be pulled pulled apart and examined to see why the results were different.
When data gathering and analysis is the basis for decision making, if one person isn't presenting a true picture, it doesn't matter. The emerging truth doesn't depend on one person. It depends on many people showing consistent results. It depends on being able to look at what's going on when the results are different.
When integrity matters for decision making, is when you base your decisions on the ideas of one person such as when you can't analyze any data to see if what they're saying holds together. Or when you don't care about proof and care more about being inspired.
The problem with following one person's ideas is they can say inspiring words that sound true. If what they say has a lot of emotional resonance, proof that it'll work doesn't seem important. It *feels* like it will work.
For me, that's the definition of guru. Guru can mean expert or whiz, but, for me, what sets guru apart is the element of spiritual inspiration. People go to hear gurus to get inspired.
Gurus don't need proof. Their worth (as gurus) comes from how well they can arouse emotions and make people feel good about an idea.
Many people do make decisions based on emotion, on what feels right. That's not bad. Analytical decision making is better for some things. Emotional decision making is better for other things. But emotional decision makers are highly vulnerable to gurus who can be inspiring without being true.
What we've been doing on the various forums that Sandra keeps focused and on topic is analyzing everyone's experiment. The data is all here. More comes in all the time. There's 70,000+ messages in the archives that can be mined for more. There's more on the Unschooling Discussion lists (that have fallen quiet). Anyone can analyze the data, pull it apart, ask questions.
Where people presenting a true picture matters *here* is if someone doesn't want to analyze data, just wants to trust what's being said is true.
I don't think that's a good use of these forums. But *because* the members report consistent results *and* allow what they're doing to be pulled apart, because the regular posters have been consistent with what they say about their lives over the years, because some have made themselves and their families available for others to see in real life it can be used that way.
Sandra is who she presents herself as. I've met her many times, been to her house, met all her kids. But the integrity of what's said here doesn't *depend* on Sandra presenting a true picture of herself because it's based on data that's been subject to analysis and that anyone can also analyze themselves. Sandra's value, as far as the integrity of what's read here is concerned, is in maintaining an atmosphere where what's posted is scrutinized and questioned and kept on topic. So people *can* trust what's read here without analyzing for themselves. But that isn't encouraged.
On the other hand, if someone is following one person because their words are emotionally stirring, it's very easy to get sucked in by someone who isn't painting a true picture. That's the big fat downside of depending on a person rather than data and thoughtful analysis. The best way avoid being surprised by gurus is to not follow gurus and instead frequent places where thoughtful analysis is the norm and do your own thinking and analysis.
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm thinking back to the early AOL days when most unschoolers didn't know each other and most had young kids. You couldn't know if an unschooler was presenting a true picture.-=-
We couldn't even see photos. :-)
My webpages from those days had little pixel images for decoration. Photos were beyond having for anyone but huge companies.
I still have some photos of people from those days that they sent me in the mail. Paper photos. I have them in a little plastic photo book. A couple of the families were Christian homeschooling families, so maybe it was even from *Prodigy days, and early AOL days.
Now, though, if people use their real names, you can google them and read what their other hobbies are and all. :-)
-=-When integrity matters for decision making, is when you base your decisions on the ideas of one person such as when you can't analyze any data to see if what they're saying holds together. Or when you don't care about proof and care more about being inspired.-=-
People can subscribe to Just Add Light and Stir just to be inspired, and I suppose then it wouldn't matter whether they had faith in my integrity. It's not data worthy of analysis, maybe, just that blog or those e-mails. But I do, nearly always, have a link to the place the quote came from, or a link to similar material. So it can be useful both ways.
But what if I were a big hypocritical bullshitter? Then would Just Add Light be as valuable? Sometimes there can be comfort of sentimental value in reading something by someone you trust and like. For me, anyway; maybe not for Joyce.
Sometimes Pam Sorooshian writes something, and because I know her and her family, and her voice and her heart, I read it with a depth and breadth that isn't really right in the words themselves.
-=-Where people presenting a true picture matters *here* is if someone doesn't want to analyze data, just wants to trust what's being said is true.-=-
Sometimes it can be evidential if someone does NOT want her stories or ideas analyzed, and so goes off and creates her own site where others are less likely to say "That doesn't sound like a very good idea, though, because..."
-=-people *can* trust what's read here without analyzing for themselves. But that isn't encouraged.-=-
That's true. I hadn't thought of it that way, but what I am hoping for with every person who joins and ventures to post is that she (or he) will become one of the strong, regular voices. :-) We don't know, at first, who will have the desire and ability to rise in the discussion to the level of being able to accept and analyze criticism of their own ideas, and start to see the patterns in the changes she's going through, and others, and to synthesize, from all that, clear ideas to throw back out on the table. Some people don't want to, and that's really okay. I suppose some people are as afraid of writing and of the analysis of ideas as other people are afraid of higher mathematics, or deep water.
What I do really hope each reader will do is read a little, try a little, wait a while and watch. And then report back on their results or changes if they want to. :-)
-=-The best way avoid being surprised by gurus is to not follow gurus and instead frequent places where thoughtful analysis is the norm and do your own thinking and analysis.-=-
Nicely put. Thanks, Joyce.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We couldn't even see photos. :-)
My webpages from those days had little pixel images for decoration. Photos were beyond having for anyone but huge companies.
I still have some photos of people from those days that they sent me in the mail. Paper photos. I have them in a little plastic photo book. A couple of the families were Christian homeschooling families, so maybe it was even from *Prodigy days, and early AOL days.
Now, though, if people use their real names, you can google them and read what their other hobbies are and all. :-)
-=-When integrity matters for decision making, is when you base your decisions on the ideas of one person such as when you can't analyze any data to see if what they're saying holds together. Or when you don't care about proof and care more about being inspired.-=-
People can subscribe to Just Add Light and Stir just to be inspired, and I suppose then it wouldn't matter whether they had faith in my integrity. It's not data worthy of analysis, maybe, just that blog or those e-mails. But I do, nearly always, have a link to the place the quote came from, or a link to similar material. So it can be useful both ways.
But what if I were a big hypocritical bullshitter? Then would Just Add Light be as valuable? Sometimes there can be comfort of sentimental value in reading something by someone you trust and like. For me, anyway; maybe not for Joyce.
Sometimes Pam Sorooshian writes something, and because I know her and her family, and her voice and her heart, I read it with a depth and breadth that isn't really right in the words themselves.
-=-Where people presenting a true picture matters *here* is if someone doesn't want to analyze data, just wants to trust what's being said is true.-=-
Sometimes it can be evidential if someone does NOT want her stories or ideas analyzed, and so goes off and creates her own site where others are less likely to say "That doesn't sound like a very good idea, though, because..."
-=-people *can* trust what's read here without analyzing for themselves. But that isn't encouraged.-=-
That's true. I hadn't thought of it that way, but what I am hoping for with every person who joins and ventures to post is that she (or he) will become one of the strong, regular voices. :-) We don't know, at first, who will have the desire and ability to rise in the discussion to the level of being able to accept and analyze criticism of their own ideas, and start to see the patterns in the changes she's going through, and others, and to synthesize, from all that, clear ideas to throw back out on the table. Some people don't want to, and that's really okay. I suppose some people are as afraid of writing and of the analysis of ideas as other people are afraid of higher mathematics, or deep water.
What I do really hope each reader will do is read a little, try a little, wait a while and watch. And then report back on their results or changes if they want to. :-)
-=-The best way avoid being surprised by gurus is to not follow gurus and instead frequent places where thoughtful analysis is the norm and do your own thinking and analysis.-=-
Nicely put. Thanks, Joyce.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Colleen
****I would like to know if a person is presenting a true picture of themselves.****
****I think the word "credibility" is probably what the question is more about, though. How does a person assess the credibility of a speaker/writer? Often, there is no way to actually know about the integrity or credibility of a writer or speaker. So all you have are their ideas.****
A month or so ago, in a flurry of Googling and internet trail-following :-) I landed on the website of a woman who was called "Peace Pilgrim." For those not familiar with her, she walked more than 25,000 miles in her lifetime in promotion of peace - and never charged anyone for her work/advice/etc.
She had this Question and Answer on her site:
Q: Why don't you accept money?
A: Because I talk about spiritual truth, and spiritual truth should never be sold - those who sell it injure themselves spiritually. The money that comes in the mail - without being solicited - I do not use for myself; I use it for printing and postage. Those who attempt to buy spiritual truth are trying to get it before they are ready. In this wonderfully well-ordered universe, when they are ready, it will be given.
I was immediately reminded me of those who charge for unschooling advice via consultation fees, etc. And when she says "Those who attempt to buy spiritual truth are trying to get it before they are ready" I think that the word Spiritual could be replaced with the word unschooling and fit perfectly.
If someone tries to Buy the Right answers, and pay for How To Unschool lessons :-) I think that is exactly because they're not ready to Get It - and they're hoping it can be paid for and installed. And they are bound to be disappointed when the person they are Paying cannot make that happen for them. And even *more* disappointed when the person they're trying to Buy unschooling from turns out to be a better Salesman than they are unschooler themselves :-)
I think to unschool well and happily, rather than thinking unschooling can be Bought like shoes and salad :-) and then installed or devoured, one needs to Get It from within, and not have it Applied from without. And I think for help along the way, one should look for the Peace Pilgrims who will help folks think for themselves, who literally walk their talk (she sure did!) and who are not looking to turn a Profit for something that's right out there, Free and in the world, for anyone who wants to make it their own.
My opinion :-)
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
****I think the word "credibility" is probably what the question is more about, though. How does a person assess the credibility of a speaker/writer? Often, there is no way to actually know about the integrity or credibility of a writer or speaker. So all you have are their ideas.****
A month or so ago, in a flurry of Googling and internet trail-following :-) I landed on the website of a woman who was called "Peace Pilgrim." For those not familiar with her, she walked more than 25,000 miles in her lifetime in promotion of peace - and never charged anyone for her work/advice/etc.
She had this Question and Answer on her site:
Q: Why don't you accept money?
A: Because I talk about spiritual truth, and spiritual truth should never be sold - those who sell it injure themselves spiritually. The money that comes in the mail - without being solicited - I do not use for myself; I use it for printing and postage. Those who attempt to buy spiritual truth are trying to get it before they are ready. In this wonderfully well-ordered universe, when they are ready, it will be given.
I was immediately reminded me of those who charge for unschooling advice via consultation fees, etc. And when she says "Those who attempt to buy spiritual truth are trying to get it before they are ready" I think that the word Spiritual could be replaced with the word unschooling and fit perfectly.
If someone tries to Buy the Right answers, and pay for How To Unschool lessons :-) I think that is exactly because they're not ready to Get It - and they're hoping it can be paid for and installed. And they are bound to be disappointed when the person they are Paying cannot make that happen for them. And even *more* disappointed when the person they're trying to Buy unschooling from turns out to be a better Salesman than they are unschooler themselves :-)
I think to unschool well and happily, rather than thinking unschooling can be Bought like shoes and salad :-) and then installed or devoured, one needs to Get It from within, and not have it Applied from without. And I think for help along the way, one should look for the Peace Pilgrims who will help folks think for themselves, who literally walk their talk (she sure did!) and who are not looking to turn a Profit for something that's right out there, Free and in the world, for anyone who wants to make it their own.
My opinion :-)
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I would not have problem if the people charging to give advice were themselves living the unschooling life well and their kids were happy, attended to and they were a true example of a great unschooling home.
But people selling out something that is far from what they really are is a scam plain and simple.
I can use all the wonderful words and ideas I have read here . I can tell people what they want to hear , and many people want that, but that does not make me a good unschooling example.
It is what I do in my family with my kids.
Last week I had two horrible moments ( said mean things) to my son . I was NOT nice. It killed me. I felt like I was the worse mother in the world. I was gone from online.
How can I tell people to be nice to their children when I was less than nice to mine.
I apologize and I still feel horrible about it. This is a big deal for me, for him.
To learn that there are people who have horrible family lives while selling their advice like they are the best unschooling parents ever is just wrong to me.
I do not care if their message and ideas ( mostly taken from others ) are good.
Flowery, pretty words are easy to say but they have no value if they are just that and do not come from well thought, well analazed, credible people.
If one is just doing it to make money while not using it in their lives I see that as deceiving others.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But people selling out something that is far from what they really are is a scam plain and simple.
I can use all the wonderful words and ideas I have read here . I can tell people what they want to hear , and many people want that, but that does not make me a good unschooling example.
It is what I do in my family with my kids.
Last week I had two horrible moments ( said mean things) to my son . I was NOT nice. It killed me. I felt like I was the worse mother in the world. I was gone from online.
How can I tell people to be nice to their children when I was less than nice to mine.
I apologize and I still feel horrible about it. This is a big deal for me, for him.
To learn that there are people who have horrible family lives while selling their advice like they are the best unschooling parents ever is just wrong to me.
I do not care if their message and ideas ( mostly taken from others ) are good.
Flowery, pretty words are easy to say but they have no value if they are just that and do not come from well thought, well analazed, credible people.
If one is just doing it to make money while not using it in their lives I see that as deceiving others.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I would not have problem if the people charging to give advice were themselves living the unschooling life well and their kids were happy, attended to and they were a true example of a great unschooling home.-=-
How does anyone know that my kids are happy, and well attended to?
Pam Sorooshian and Joyce Fetteroll claim to have met them, and to have been to my house, but what if they're liars? What if I pay them to say glowing things about me? Or I give them free books to write nice things?
I'm only running a "for instance," because lots of people here know my kids, and have been to my house.
But some have not, and they trust Pam or Joyce, because they've been to THEIR houses.
And many more do as Joyce suggested and come not to care about the individuals who are writing so much as they care about whether the ideas make sense and help them live happier lives.
-=-But people selling out something that is far from what they really are is a scam plain and simple.-=-
This is true too, though. There are certain positions of trust�priests, doctors, teachers, leaders�where there is an extra level of responsibility to live a life with respect to ideals. If a private or sergeant has an affair, it's not as big a deal as if a general does.
Among academics, there are "degrees"�bachelors, masters, doctor of philosophy�and those who are at that rank or higher examine and approve new graduates. We don't have that among unschoolers, nor should we. It would be a nightmare of gigantic proportions, and there would be people who would lie and cheat to get those (because there are people who lie and cheat, already, to get those others, or claim to have them when they don't).
If someone makes a blatantly false claim (to have a PhD they don't have, or a Master's degree they don't have, or say "leader in the field for a decade" when they 1) haven't been around that long, and 2) aren't leading anyone except those who will believe made-up claims, it's possible that others should state as much.
But learning exists as water, and air, in the whole world. Unschooling isn't centralized at a factory, and there is no front gate on which we can put warnings and notices and announcements.
Authenticity is a problem because of things like this:
-=-I know that this is only a set-back and it is only a matter of time before I come back stronger, healthier and more authentic than I was before.-=-
Set back on the path to... what?
Come back... where?
More authentic? That's an admission of having been inauthentic, or dishonest.
We can't "come back." We are, all of us, alive in this moment.
If we're being responsible unschooling parents, we will be with our children as much as we can be, and help other unschoolers because unschoolers helped us.
La Leche League leaders and other members helped me freely.
Adult Children of Alcoholics members helped me freely.
I have helped other unschoolers freely since Kirby first didn't go to school, and our weekly playgroup that had been a La Leche League-based playgroup started evolving into an unschooling playgroup called "The Goof Group." That was 1990. :-) If I were not who I said I was, that playgroup would've bombed and died out in no time, but it lasted until 1999 or so, when Kirby and Marty said they were tired of it and could we please stop.
I have lived my unschooling life in public. My children agreed to let me share their experiences so that other children's lives would be better, too.
If I had left my very young children for a week to help other people be better mothers, that wouldn't have been evidence that I knew what a really attentive mother should do. Add to that "for payment," and perhaps it does compound the problem.
Sandra
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How does anyone know that my kids are happy, and well attended to?
Pam Sorooshian and Joyce Fetteroll claim to have met them, and to have been to my house, but what if they're liars? What if I pay them to say glowing things about me? Or I give them free books to write nice things?
I'm only running a "for instance," because lots of people here know my kids, and have been to my house.
But some have not, and they trust Pam or Joyce, because they've been to THEIR houses.
And many more do as Joyce suggested and come not to care about the individuals who are writing so much as they care about whether the ideas make sense and help them live happier lives.
-=-But people selling out something that is far from what they really are is a scam plain and simple.-=-
This is true too, though. There are certain positions of trust�priests, doctors, teachers, leaders�where there is an extra level of responsibility to live a life with respect to ideals. If a private or sergeant has an affair, it's not as big a deal as if a general does.
Among academics, there are "degrees"�bachelors, masters, doctor of philosophy�and those who are at that rank or higher examine and approve new graduates. We don't have that among unschoolers, nor should we. It would be a nightmare of gigantic proportions, and there would be people who would lie and cheat to get those (because there are people who lie and cheat, already, to get those others, or claim to have them when they don't).
If someone makes a blatantly false claim (to have a PhD they don't have, or a Master's degree they don't have, or say "leader in the field for a decade" when they 1) haven't been around that long, and 2) aren't leading anyone except those who will believe made-up claims, it's possible that others should state as much.
But learning exists as water, and air, in the whole world. Unschooling isn't centralized at a factory, and there is no front gate on which we can put warnings and notices and announcements.
Authenticity is a problem because of things like this:
-=-I know that this is only a set-back and it is only a matter of time before I come back stronger, healthier and more authentic than I was before.-=-
Set back on the path to... what?
Come back... where?
More authentic? That's an admission of having been inauthentic, or dishonest.
We can't "come back." We are, all of us, alive in this moment.
If we're being responsible unschooling parents, we will be with our children as much as we can be, and help other unschoolers because unschoolers helped us.
La Leche League leaders and other members helped me freely.
Adult Children of Alcoholics members helped me freely.
I have helped other unschoolers freely since Kirby first didn't go to school, and our weekly playgroup that had been a La Leche League-based playgroup started evolving into an unschooling playgroup called "The Goof Group." That was 1990. :-) If I were not who I said I was, that playgroup would've bombed and died out in no time, but it lasted until 1999 or so, when Kirby and Marty said they were tired of it and could we please stop.
I have lived my unschooling life in public. My children agreed to let me share their experiences so that other children's lives would be better, too.
If I had left my very young children for a week to help other people be better mothers, that wouldn't have been evidence that I knew what a really attentive mother should do. Add to that "for payment," and perhaps it does compound the problem.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Last week I had two horrible moments ( said mean things) to my son . I was NOT nice. It killed me. I felt like I was the worse mother in the world. I was gone from online.
How can I tell people to be nice to their children when I was less than nice to mine.-=-
Do you mean that because you felt bad, you left the internet?
Do you mean that maybe you wouldn't have been as cranky if you had been more connected to other moms on the internet?
-=-How can I tell people to be nice to their children when I was less than nice to mine.-=-
Don't tell people what to do? Share your story, of how it hurt your relationship, and how you apologized and how it made you feel, and what you should have done differently, and how it will inform your future decisions.
It's not about the perfection of the author�it's about the honesty of the report, and the analysis of what could have gone better, so that others might learn from it.
Sandra
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How can I tell people to be nice to their children when I was less than nice to mine.-=-
Do you mean that because you felt bad, you left the internet?
Do you mean that maybe you wouldn't have been as cranky if you had been more connected to other moms on the internet?
-=-How can I tell people to be nice to their children when I was less than nice to mine.-=-
Don't tell people what to do? Share your story, of how it hurt your relationship, and how you apologized and how it made you feel, and what you should have done differently, and how it will inform your future decisions.
It's not about the perfection of the author�it's about the honesty of the report, and the analysis of what could have gone better, so that others might learn from it.
Sandra
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Bernadette Lynn
On 14 July 2013 22:28, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
things wrong, and get things more badly wrong. But if I write with advice,
I'm writing about the things which we got right, where things did go
smoothly and well - I assume people don't need to hear about the mistakes
and bad choices, that those are irrelevant when the purpose of the advice
is to help people find better ideas. I do the same in person, on the whole;
I'd rather talk about the good times even with close family and friends.
Does that come across to some people as claiming that our life is always
perfect? How much evidence would someone need to be sure that it's not all
a pretence? Even with people you know personally there are things you may
need to take on trust.
Bernadette.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I think the question here is about people who are actually faking... as inMine isn't a perfect family. We get some things wrong. We used to get more
> putting up the pretense of having a joyful unschooling family when, in
> fact, they are secretly not living in the way that they claim.
> =========================================
things wrong, and get things more badly wrong. But if I write with advice,
I'm writing about the things which we got right, where things did go
smoothly and well - I assume people don't need to hear about the mistakes
and bad choices, that those are irrelevant when the purpose of the advice
is to help people find better ideas. I do the same in person, on the whole;
I'd rather talk about the good times even with close family and friends.
Does that come across to some people as claiming that our life is always
perfect? How much evidence would someone need to be sure that it's not all
a pretence? Even with people you know personally there are things you may
need to take on trust.
Bernadette.
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Belinda Gmail
When I took my kids out of school last year I was like a rabbit in the headlights, and looked around desperately wondering 'what next'?. I hired tutors, created diaries and schedules... The usual story. And looked around the home ed community here in the uk for guidance. But. No family was the same as us, no combination of personality and circumstance the same ( of course). I realised that I could not look to somebody, some curriculum, as all externally imposed ideas did not sit with INTEGRITY in our household. They niggled and felt uncomfortable. And so began the slow, scary realisation that it was something I needed to work out for MYSELF! By waiting, watching seeing how it went, then adjusting, waiting, watching, experimenting. I gradually began to breathe again and find MY integrity.
So it was with great relief that this forum came into focus, as I was already waiting, watching, and really excited about coming from a place of thought, and first principles, being free from being told how things should be. Asking, watching, and making genuine observations and acting upon those observations.
I suppose we are always looking for validation of our own ideas, and actions, especially when they are so against the flow of society. But it's important that integrity comes from your own observations and reactions, of others and your own family dynamic. It's a funny road to go down if we are looking to Internet chat forums to tell us how to be with our own children.
Just nice to find like minded souls to spar ideas with and to make observations of to add to my information gathering...I don't worry if they have 'integrity' or not as if what they say feels wrong I reject it, I am not looking for a 'how to' guide.
I wonder of course how this will all 'turn out', but if each day is lived with integrity then doesn't that amount to a life?
So it was with great relief that this forum came into focus, as I was already waiting, watching, and really excited about coming from a place of thought, and first principles, being free from being told how things should be. Asking, watching, and making genuine observations and acting upon those observations.
I suppose we are always looking for validation of our own ideas, and actions, especially when they are so against the flow of society. But it's important that integrity comes from your own observations and reactions, of others and your own family dynamic. It's a funny road to go down if we are looking to Internet chat forums to tell us how to be with our own children.
Just nice to find like minded souls to spar ideas with and to make observations of to add to my information gathering...I don't worry if they have 'integrity' or not as if what they say feels wrong I reject it, I am not looking for a 'how to' guide.
I wonder of course how this will all 'turn out', but if each day is lived with integrity then doesn't that amount to a life?
Alex Polikowsky
> -=-Last week I had two horrible moments ( said mean things) to my son . I was NOT nice. It killed me. I felt like I was the worse mother in the world. I was gone from online.-"-"-""-"-"-""--"-"-"-"-"
> How can I tell people to be nice to their children when I was less than nice to mine.-=-
>
>
> Do you mean that because you felt bad, you left the internet?
Yes I felt horrible . I hurt my son. I did not feel like talking to anyone. I don't feel better if people pat me on the back an commiserate. I just wanted to not deal with anyone and focus on being a better mom .
What matters to me is not what others think of me . Why matters to me is my son and how he feels. That is my priority.
I had wonderful people notice I was gone and reach out even calling me from another Continent. I did not want to talk to anyone ( would have answered the Skype call if I had heard it!!). I made a huge mistake and I needed not to hear "everything will be alright " or " it happens" or "you did your best", I needed to fix it and mourn for my son.
I think I was way more upset than my son about it.
----------
>-"-"-"-"-"-"-"-"-"-""-
> Do you mean that maybe you wouldn't have been as cranky if you had been more connected to other moms on the internet?
This is the first time I talked about it and I know some awesome friends that I could have talked and they did reach out and they did not even know anything. I just was so disappointed at myself and worried I had screwed up my so for life.
>I will. I hope it helps others but I really do not like to hear anyone tell me it is Ok , or that it happens or anyone patting on my back. ;)
> -=-How can I tell people to be nice to their children when I was less than nice to mine.-=-
>
> Don't tell people what to do? Share your story, of how it hurt your relationship, and how you apologized and how it made you feel, and what you should have done differently, and how it will inform your future decisions.
> -"-"-"-"-"-"-"-"-"-"
I knew better.
I felt huge guilt because this is my son I love so much , my boy that is amazing and honestly has mine and his Dad's temper and sensibilities.
Will write more about with when I am on a computer.
-------
> It's not about the perfection of the author—it's about the honesty of the report, and the analysis of what could have gone better, so that others might learn from it.-"-"-"-"-"-"-"-"-"-""-
Yes!
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Jenny Cyphers
=======================
I have been greatly inspired in my unschooling journey... but I would like to know that the people I am inspired by are actually authentic.
I would like to know if a person is presenting a true picture of themselves.
=======================
It's so hard to tell if someone is who they say they are if you only know them online. I've seen it a couple of times, a dishonest representation online of what their lives are. The clues that I've seen, looking back, were an overwhelmingly near perfect representation of their lives, coupled with some little details that are easily overlooked, like you know that someone is working all the time away from home, but only discuss their perfect home life. Sometimes it's in the details of talking about unschooling, but never giving concrete examples with their own children.
Even if someone can give really great answers to unschooling, or discuss unschooling in inspiring terms, it doesn't mean that person is DOing those things in their own home. Many times there is a disconnect between theory and practice. How can anyone tell, online, if someone has that disconnect?
It's a really good question. I don't know if I can tell. I've certainly been burned before. I've almost dropped off of writing about unschooling entirely because of that experience. Even though I KNOW many really amazing unschoolers who really do and are exactly who and what they say they are. That level of dishonesty is really hard to get over, especially if you continue seeing it happen to other people. It's something that I take personally. Maybe I shouldn't, but it's how I am as a person when I feel strongly about something and have invested many years and a lot of time in.
Unschooling is a word of mouth ideology. People write what they see and believe and others, reading, try them out and make their own observations. It's what I've done. I've been openly honest about my life, but I've got to say, even knowing for myself that unschooling works, and knowing that most people aren't dishonest bullshit liars, knowing that even one exists, and coupling that with being burned by one, it's REALLY hard to move past that without questioning every single new person you meet that claims to be doing this thing you love.
________________________________
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I have been greatly inspired in my unschooling journey... but I would like to know that the people I am inspired by are actually authentic.
I would like to know if a person is presenting a true picture of themselves.
=======================
It's so hard to tell if someone is who they say they are if you only know them online. I've seen it a couple of times, a dishonest representation online of what their lives are. The clues that I've seen, looking back, were an overwhelmingly near perfect representation of their lives, coupled with some little details that are easily overlooked, like you know that someone is working all the time away from home, but only discuss their perfect home life. Sometimes it's in the details of talking about unschooling, but never giving concrete examples with their own children.
Even if someone can give really great answers to unschooling, or discuss unschooling in inspiring terms, it doesn't mean that person is DOing those things in their own home. Many times there is a disconnect between theory and practice. How can anyone tell, online, if someone has that disconnect?
It's a really good question. I don't know if I can tell. I've certainly been burned before. I've almost dropped off of writing about unschooling entirely because of that experience. Even though I KNOW many really amazing unschoolers who really do and are exactly who and what they say they are. That level of dishonesty is really hard to get over, especially if you continue seeing it happen to other people. It's something that I take personally. Maybe I shouldn't, but it's how I am as a person when I feel strongly about something and have invested many years and a lot of time in.
Unschooling is a word of mouth ideology. People write what they see and believe and others, reading, try them out and make their own observations. It's what I've done. I've been openly honest about my life, but I've got to say, even knowing for myself that unschooling works, and knowing that most people aren't dishonest bullshit liars, knowing that even one exists, and coupling that with being burned by one, it's REALLY hard to move past that without questioning every single new person you meet that claims to be doing this thing you love.
________________________________
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Sandra Dodd
"Authentic" can't be a lofty goal in and of itself. What if a person's "authentic self" is dishonest?
What if a person truly, really, is not a very good person and that IS the authentic reality?
What if a person truly, really, is not a very good person and that IS the authentic reality?
Jenny Cyphers
***"Authentic" can't be a lofty goal in and of itself. What if a person's "authentic self" is dishonest?
What if a person truly, really, is not a very good person and that IS the authentic reality?***
If that's the case, then I'd like to stay as FAR away from that person as possible!
For years, I never questioned whether these lovely unschoolers I knew online where being honest or not. It was really only the course of years that I became skeptical, combined with having a personal interaction with a very dishonest and not very good person who still claims to be unschooling.
Occasionally someone might come along online with questions and ideas that seemed to be authentic bull. I figured that person just wasn't very introspective or self aware. I've met loads of people like that in real life, so I figured they existed in online unschooling as well. This other thing though, being dishonest, well that's harder to spot until you've been burned, or you've seen it first hand.
I grew up believing that everyone was basically good! I still believe that, which is probably why I take it so personally when I come to find that someone really isn't. It's disheartening for sure. What it doesn't do is change how I unschool in my own home with my own kids. That's something I learned how to do over many years and lots of reading and writing and trial.and one or two people, who are dishonest liars, won't change what is working in my own home that seems to also be working in many other homes, it only changes how I perceive any new person I meet.
In the back of my head, any time a new person writes and asks questions, I think "what if they are lying?", or "what if this person is mentally ill to the point that they abuse their children in private but still want to unschool?" That's the concrete damage that dishonest unschoolers have done to me. I've been almost completely gone from writing about my unschooling experiences for the last couple of years.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What if a person truly, really, is not a very good person and that IS the authentic reality?***
If that's the case, then I'd like to stay as FAR away from that person as possible!
For years, I never questioned whether these lovely unschoolers I knew online where being honest or not. It was really only the course of years that I became skeptical, combined with having a personal interaction with a very dishonest and not very good person who still claims to be unschooling.
Occasionally someone might come along online with questions and ideas that seemed to be authentic bull. I figured that person just wasn't very introspective or self aware. I've met loads of people like that in real life, so I figured they existed in online unschooling as well. This other thing though, being dishonest, well that's harder to spot until you've been burned, or you've seen it first hand.
I grew up believing that everyone was basically good! I still believe that, which is probably why I take it so personally when I come to find that someone really isn't. It's disheartening for sure. What it doesn't do is change how I unschool in my own home with my own kids. That's something I learned how to do over many years and lots of reading and writing and trial.and one or two people, who are dishonest liars, won't change what is working in my own home that seems to also be working in many other homes, it only changes how I perceive any new person I meet.
In the back of my head, any time a new person writes and asks questions, I think "what if they are lying?", or "what if this person is mentally ill to the point that they abuse their children in private but still want to unschool?" That's the concrete damage that dishonest unschoolers have done to me. I've been almost completely gone from writing about my unschooling experiences for the last couple of years.
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Karen
>>>>> In the back of my head, any time a new person writes and asks questions, I think "what if they are lying?", or "what if this person is mentally ill to the point that they abuse their children in private but still want to unschool?" That's the concrete damage that dishonest unschoolers have done to me. I've been almost completely gone from writing about my unschooling experiences for the last couple of years.<<<<<I want to say that whenever you write Jenny, I am very grateful for your insights. The same holds true for many writers here on Always Learning, which has been my source of inspiration and education on unschooling for years now. For every one person that is full of shit (forgive me), there are many that benefit greatly from what you and others share. My homeschooling and family life would be less joyful and much more anxiety laced if it wasn't for the ideas I have followed and personally scrutinized here on this list (and I like the Facebook group too).
I can understand your reservation though, and I share your skepticism occasionally. There have been times where I've questioned whether a person *should* be unschooling at all. I don't think we can do anything about people who claim to be something they are not. Time will out them if they do not attempt to change their ways. What concerns me is the families who have placed all of their aspirations for success in unschooling on an illusion. That must be so frustrating and confusing. Maddening even.
A couple weeks ago, a friend of ours, who is schooled, was talking about his spelling tests. Now, I've witnessed both my son and this friend typing and spelling together in computer games for a couple of years now. They both do well. The thing that stood out for me was just that. They both do well. My son has learned to spell naturally, by reading, writing, asking questions, comparing etc. This boy has too, but he has also had several years of spelling tests to measure his success against. He thinks he knows he can spell well because he got 9 out of 10 on a test. My son knows he can spell well because he got the word he wanted to spell right. There inlies the difference for me. Not that one boy is better than the other, but rather that one boy feels his success, and the other waits to be told about it.
That preserved sense of confidence in one's own inherent ability to learn, to me, is so precious. I feel for the families that leave or dismiss unschooling due to poor examples of it. If and when I can, I direct them here.
Sandra Dodd
-=-That preserved sense of confidence in one's own inherent ability to learn, to me, is so precious. -=-
That happens best when the parents see unschooling as being about learning.
Those who see it as being about "freedom" (or total or absolute freedom, even worse) can completely miss the mark.
My children were free from spelling tests. They learned freely how to spell, in various ways, by asking when they wanted to, by looking things up, using a spellchecker (carefully�not always trusting what the spellchecker thought they were trying to say) AND by being okay with misspellings, knowing that communication was the point, not perfection.
If Keith and I had been unschooling so that WE the parents would seem cool and exctingly "radical" (that is a whole different 'radical' than the one intended in "radical unschooling" for the past 20 years), our children would be secondary to the whole project, and their learning would be way down the line. We might have, if we were unschooling for our own sakes, even discouraged them from learning to spell because it might seem cooler for them to spell wildly, to prove we were UNSCHOOLERS!
But that's not what we did. We began with the peace and fun of attachment parenting, and the learning they had already been doing, and then did not add school. :-)
Please, if anyone has joined here lately and your unschooling, because of your nearest conferences or other influences, has been a raucous party of "ain't we COOL!," please try to turn more toward your children, and calmness and peace, support and security, and learning.
For people who have thought of quitting good jobs and risking poverty because someone suggested that was the way to REALLY be unschoolers, please find better influences. One of the parents ought to have a job. ANY parents should be providing food and shelter, a soft, quiet place to sleep, a good place to keep things. And if "the job" a family has is taking money from other unschoolers, that's not a very good example of the way unschooling works best. If a "job" involves leaving a young child for a week to tell other people to be closer to their children, think carefully.
Ideas should make sense to you before you change anything in your life. Some ideas only make sense when you try them out. It's a paradox. People need to hurry and unschool without rushing in to it. People can't wait forever, or it's too late. But if they move too far too fast, it can make a mess.
That's why "read a little, try a litle, wait a while, watch" works. Repeat it, as you understand more. Read a little (of what it seems you need to think about at that moment), try a little (relax in that area, see if you can change just a little reaction or two, or lean toward the way you want to be), wait a while (give it some time) and watch (observe, feel, wait for evidence or feedback or assess your own thoughts and responses).
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/leaning-toward-balance.html
Sandra
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That happens best when the parents see unschooling as being about learning.
Those who see it as being about "freedom" (or total or absolute freedom, even worse) can completely miss the mark.
My children were free from spelling tests. They learned freely how to spell, in various ways, by asking when they wanted to, by looking things up, using a spellchecker (carefully�not always trusting what the spellchecker thought they were trying to say) AND by being okay with misspellings, knowing that communication was the point, not perfection.
If Keith and I had been unschooling so that WE the parents would seem cool and exctingly "radical" (that is a whole different 'radical' than the one intended in "radical unschooling" for the past 20 years), our children would be secondary to the whole project, and their learning would be way down the line. We might have, if we were unschooling for our own sakes, even discouraged them from learning to spell because it might seem cooler for them to spell wildly, to prove we were UNSCHOOLERS!
But that's not what we did. We began with the peace and fun of attachment parenting, and the learning they had already been doing, and then did not add school. :-)
Please, if anyone has joined here lately and your unschooling, because of your nearest conferences or other influences, has been a raucous party of "ain't we COOL!," please try to turn more toward your children, and calmness and peace, support and security, and learning.
For people who have thought of quitting good jobs and risking poverty because someone suggested that was the way to REALLY be unschoolers, please find better influences. One of the parents ought to have a job. ANY parents should be providing food and shelter, a soft, quiet place to sleep, a good place to keep things. And if "the job" a family has is taking money from other unschoolers, that's not a very good example of the way unschooling works best. If a "job" involves leaving a young child for a week to tell other people to be closer to their children, think carefully.
Ideas should make sense to you before you change anything in your life. Some ideas only make sense when you try them out. It's a paradox. People need to hurry and unschool without rushing in to it. People can't wait forever, or it's too late. But if they move too far too fast, it can make a mess.
That's why "read a little, try a litle, wait a while, watch" works. Repeat it, as you understand more. Read a little (of what it seems you need to think about at that moment), try a little (relax in that area, see if you can change just a little reaction or two, or lean toward the way you want to be), wait a while (give it some time) and watch (observe, feel, wait for evidence or feedback or assess your own thoughts and responses).
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/leaning-toward-balance.html
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=-I wonder of course how this will all 'turn out', but if each day is lived with integrity then doesn't that amount to a life? -=-
Even people about whom the word "integrity" would never apply have a life.
What I think you're wanting is a GOOD life. A life you're not ashamed of. A life that makes the world better for other people.
Sandra
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Even people about whom the word "integrity" would never apply have a life.
What I think you're wanting is a GOOD life. A life you're not ashamed of. A life that makes the world better for other people.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
I had a side e-mail and I had permission to quote it anonymously here.
========================
I have taken your advice over the past three years-- reading, trying, waiting, and watching. Our [children] are out of the school system and enjoying life, learning, and each other. The result is that our whole family is much more loving and peaceful than ever before. I don't count myself as quite an unschooler yet, but I am leaning in without falling over.
Through your words and those of other wise mothers, I have learned to trust my children, respect them, and support them. I have stopped trying to manufacture perfect children through the "right" books, behaviors, activities. This was a huge shift for me. Now I believe my children feel their parents' love, support, and unconditional acceptance of them as people.
Thank you so much for your words, ideas, and suggestions.
========================
This is the highlight of that, for me:
"I have stopped trying to manufacture perfect children through the "right" books, behaviors, activities. This was a huge shift for me."
Sandra
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========================
I have taken your advice over the past three years-- reading, trying, waiting, and watching. Our [children] are out of the school system and enjoying life, learning, and each other. The result is that our whole family is much more loving and peaceful than ever before. I don't count myself as quite an unschooler yet, but I am leaning in without falling over.
Through your words and those of other wise mothers, I have learned to trust my children, respect them, and support them. I have stopped trying to manufacture perfect children through the "right" books, behaviors, activities. This was a huge shift for me. Now I believe my children feel their parents' love, support, and unconditional acceptance of them as people.
Thank you so much for your words, ideas, and suggestions.
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This is the highlight of that, for me:
"I have stopped trying to manufacture perfect children through the "right" books, behaviors, activities. This was a huge shift for me."
Sandra
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 15, 2013, at 5:51 PM, Bernadette Lynn wrote:
But this isn't a social group. Here it's presumed everyone is here to learn more about creating peaceful learning-full homes. And that they are imperfect but learning from what they try.
The more people stand to lose, the more one person stands to gain, the more their integrity should matter to those who are depending on them.
Joyce
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> Does that come across to some people as claiming that our life is alwaysIt does but it shouldn't. It matters only because people are most familiar with social groups. In social groups, people often connect with others by sharing their troubles. It's comforting finding fellow sufferers. If someone is looking for a place to vent, a list like this can feel uncomfortable, like it's only for people with perfect lives.
> perfect?
But this isn't a social group. Here it's presumed everyone is here to learn more about creating peaceful learning-full homes. And that they are imperfect but learning from what they try.
> How much evidence would someone need to be sure that it's not allIf you're living a life of pretense, how much is that affecting others? And what are you gaining from it? Love? Money? Fame? Influence? A large following?
> a pretence?
The more people stand to lose, the more one person stands to gain, the more their integrity should matter to those who are depending on them.
Joyce
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