managing allergies and intolerance.
fishbeeandsnail
Our son is nearly three and has an allergy to egg and an intolerance to chocolate. I cannot give him any choice about eating egg, it makes him very I'll. Chocolate is not so clear cut and given how much we are going to have to restrict his diet to avoid egg I am reluctant to put further restrictions on him. But, chocolate makes him angry, upset and volatile and affects his digestion. It is not fun for any of us so we are, reluctantly, excluding it.
Has anyone got any advice on managing food issues? I feel horrible for trampling on his autonomy but the effects are so negative I don't feel we have a choice. Food is otherwise unrestricted. I want him to have a choice about chocolate at least, but I am just not confident that he can make an informed decision when he is so young. Am I just plain wrong? And if not what sort of age can I expect to be able to give that control back to him? I am fine with him choosing to eat chocolate once in a while, if he understands the consequences. I just don't think we can live with the upset and distress if he chooses it regularly and I am not sure that at three he can understand the link between eating chocolate and feeling bad well enough to make an informed decision.
Has anyone got any advice on managing food issues? I feel horrible for trampling on his autonomy but the effects are so negative I don't feel we have a choice. Food is otherwise unrestricted. I want him to have a choice about chocolate at least, but I am just not confident that he can make an informed decision when he is so young. Am I just plain wrong? And if not what sort of age can I expect to be able to give that control back to him? I am fine with him choosing to eat chocolate once in a while, if he understands the consequences. I just don't think we can live with the upset and distress if he chooses it regularly and I am not sure that at three he can understand the link between eating chocolate and feeling bad well enough to make an informed decision.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 28, 2013, at 1:14 AM, fishbeeandsnail wrote:
Let him decide each time. *Don't* expect him to make the "right" decision from the information. Let him ponder the information. Let him experience what happens. Maybe sometimes the effect will be worth it to him. Maybe sometimes it won't.
Keep some carob around too and other sweets he likes so he has a choice.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I am not sure that at three he can understand the link betweenGive him the information you have about his intolerance. Pass on what you've noticed about how it affects him. But don't present it as "So that's why the right decision is not to have chocolate."
> eating chocolate and feeling bad well enough to make an informed decision
Let him decide each time. *Don't* expect him to make the "right" decision from the information. Let him ponder the information. Let him experience what happens. Maybe sometimes the effect will be worth it to him. Maybe sometimes it won't.
Keep some carob around too and other sweets he likes so he has a choice.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
m cruger
Are you talking about regular store bought chocolate full of non choc ingredients? Does he have the same reactions to organic cocoa or chocolate. Look for the real stuff. If the reaction is not the same then keep some of it stashed away, maybe in your purse if on the road, for when he has the craving hit. As for the eggs, I read somewhere that the intolerance can go away. Do some research. Go organic/free range. I also have heard/read somewhere that although it's not supposed to make a difference, it may depend on brown or white shell.
CASS KOTRBA
-=-Our son is nearly three and has an allergy to egg and an intolerance to chocolate. I cannot give him any choice about eating egg, it makes him very I'll.-=-
This is more of a foodie response than an unschooling response but we have been raising free range chickens & ducks on corn and soy free food for about 1 1/2 years. I sell my excess eggs and several people have told me that they can eat my eggs whereas they cannot tolerate any egg from the store - be it organic, "free range", etc. Also, duck eggs, if you can find them, are easily digested by many people who can't eat chicken eggs. They taste the same as a chicken egg and can be used in all the same ways you'd use a chicken egg. Duck eggs give wonderful results to baking so you could make him a wide range of treats at home and use carob in place of chocolate and he may not feel restricted at all.
-Cass
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This is more of a foodie response than an unschooling response but we have been raising free range chickens & ducks on corn and soy free food for about 1 1/2 years. I sell my excess eggs and several people have told me that they can eat my eggs whereas they cannot tolerate any egg from the store - be it organic, "free range", etc. Also, duck eggs, if you can find them, are easily digested by many people who can't eat chicken eggs. They taste the same as a chicken egg and can be used in all the same ways you'd use a chicken egg. Duck eggs give wonderful results to baking so you could make him a wide range of treats at home and use carob in place of chocolate and he may not feel restricted at all.
-Cass
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
CASS KOTRBA
-=- I also have heard/read somewhere that although it's not supposed to make a difference, it may depend on brown or white shell.-=-
I don't think this is true. We have chickens that lay eggs of all different colors (the green are the most fun!) but they are all alike on the inside.
I don't think this is true. We have chickens that lay eggs of all different colors (the green are the most fun!) but they are all alike on the inside.
----- Original Message -----
From: m cruger<mailto:mrcruger@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] managing allergies and intolerance.
Are you talking about regular store bought chocolate full of non choc ingredients? Does he have the same reactions to organic cocoa or chocolate. Look for the real stuff. If the reaction is not the same then keep some of it stashed away, maybe in your purse if on the road, for when he has the craving hit. As for the eggs, I read somewhere that the intolerance can go away. Do some research. Go organic/free range. I also have heard/read somewhere that although it's not supposed to make a difference, it may depend on brown or white shell.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Am I just plain wrong? -=-
Quite possibly.
Maybe not.
It doesn't matter, in a very big way.
-=-And if not what sort of age can I expect to be able to give that control back to him?-=-
So there was control, and you took it away from him?
And you want someone else to tell you when to give it back to him?
-=- I am fine with him choosing to eat chocolate once in a while, if he understands the consequences. -=-
The consequences meaning that other people will shame him and say "SEE? We told you so"?
The consequences meaning that if he eats chocolate, you will watch everything he does waiting for something to blame on the chocolate?
Maybe none of my questions apply or are important, but it's important that you think of them. Don't answer them. Just use them for self reflection.
http://sandradodd.com/control
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Quite possibly.
Maybe not.
It doesn't matter, in a very big way.
-=-And if not what sort of age can I expect to be able to give that control back to him?-=-
So there was control, and you took it away from him?
And you want someone else to tell you when to give it back to him?
-=- I am fine with him choosing to eat chocolate once in a while, if he understands the consequences. -=-
The consequences meaning that other people will shame him and say "SEE? We told you so"?
The consequences meaning that if he eats chocolate, you will watch everything he does waiting for something to blame on the chocolate?
Maybe none of my questions apply or are important, but it's important that you think of them. Don't answer them. Just use them for self reflection.
http://sandradodd.com/control
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kimberly Sims
~" But, chocolate makes him angry, upset and volatile and affects his digestion. It is not fun for any of us so we are, reluctantly, excluding it. "~
I thought I was allergic to chocolate my whole life. When I was younger I would get terrible migraine headaches after eating some so my parents thought it was because of chocolate. Recently I have been diagnosed with a gluten and dairy intolerance, after all this time of not being able to eat chocolate like everyone else, no Easter bunnies, Halloween candy (always had to give it to my sister), it was not the chocolate at all but the dairy in the chocolate that was causing my issues. I found dairy free, soy free chocolate and have had no problems since.
This may not be the case with your child at all but as someone who was never allowed chocolate my whole childhood I did want to mention there could be a possibility it's not chocolate itself but some of the other ingredients causing the trouble.
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I thought I was allergic to chocolate my whole life. When I was younger I would get terrible migraine headaches after eating some so my parents thought it was because of chocolate. Recently I have been diagnosed with a gluten and dairy intolerance, after all this time of not being able to eat chocolate like everyone else, no Easter bunnies, Halloween candy (always had to give it to my sister), it was not the chocolate at all but the dairy in the chocolate that was causing my issues. I found dairy free, soy free chocolate and have had no problems since.
This may not be the case with your child at all but as someone who was never allowed chocolate my whole childhood I did want to mention there could be a possibility it's not chocolate itself but some of the other ingredients causing the trouble.
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ehulani56
>Is there any possibility that the reason he's "angry, upset and volatile" (which in themselves can upset someone's digestion) because he's getting just a little chocolate? Maybe you're already limiting his intake and that's the source of his emotional state?
> ~" But, chocolate makes him angry, upset and volatile and affects his digestion. It is not fun for any of us so we are, reluctantly, excluding it. "~
>
Knowing you can't have what you really want can cause those feelings. It's happened. I'm not saying it's true in this instance, but it might be worth thinking about.
Robin B.
Priscilla Rolvers
I've studied cocoa and if he is one of the few with an allergy, the
behaviour you're talking about isn't a symptom. The behaviour you're
talking about is the opposite of what I would expect in the use of cocoa.
Maybe it is the dairy, our the sugar, or both. Or the stress you have
around chocolate. Maybe he can try raw chocolate?
Love,
Priscilla
behaviour you're talking about isn't a symptom. The behaviour you're
talking about is the opposite of what I would expect in the use of cocoa.
Maybe it is the dairy, our the sugar, or both. Or the stress you have
around chocolate. Maybe he can try raw chocolate?
Love,
Priscilla
On Jun 30, 2013 8:00 PM, "ehulani56" <robin.bentley@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> >
> > ~" But, chocolate makes him angry, upset and volatile and affects his
> digestion. It is not fun for any of us so we are, reluctantly, excluding
> it. "~
> >
>
> Is there any possibility that the reason he's "angry, upset and volatile"
> (which in themselves can upset someone's digestion) because he's getting
> just a little chocolate? Maybe you're already limiting his intake and
> that's the source of his emotional state?
>
> Knowing you can't have what you really want can cause those feelings. It's
> happened. I'm not saying it's true in this instance, but it might be worth
> thinking about.
>
> Robin B.
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Is there any possibility that the reason he's "angry, upset and volatile" (which in themselves can upset someone's digestion) because he's getting just a little chocolate? Maybe you're already limiting his intake and that's the source of his emotional state? -=-
This happens with video games. A parent will say the games make kids difficult, but it was turning the game off that seems to be doing that, sometimes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This happens with video games. A parent will say the games make kids difficult, but it was turning the game off that seems to be doing that, sometimes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fishbeeandsnail
Thank you all for your responses. This is helping me clarify my thinking.
Eggs are a serious allergen for him, he reacts to tiny amounts of cross contamination in my diet, through breast milk, and his tongue and throat swell among other symptoms. It really has to be totally excluded.
Chocolate is certainly not an allergy. Dark chocolate is worst of all, and provokes the biggest reaction. Observation suggests it is the cocoa not some other ingredient, but I have no idea why it should be having such an affect on him. I am very sure it is not just a reaction to us placing limits, but I do wonder if the effect of chocolate might be functional for him. It trashes his emotional control in a way that nothing else does. I know that pmt does the same to me, and while it is unpleasant it is something I need. He is highly sensitive and has a great deal of emotional intelligence and I do wonder if he needs the chocolate to give him a break from his rather tight control on his emotions. If that is so I really need to not interfere with him regulating himself in that way.
I think we will have to allow chocolate without placing limits or warning of dire consequences. I am not comfortable with the possibility that we are imposing a limit that is not needed. And I do not want to put the idea in his head and create a self fulfilling prophesy.
If chocolate does always make him unhappy and volatile I suppose we just have to work on strategies to support him and help him through that experience. Most importantly we need to let go of the stress that has surrounded food and let the dust settle.
Thank you.
Eggs are a serious allergen for him, he reacts to tiny amounts of cross contamination in my diet, through breast milk, and his tongue and throat swell among other symptoms. It really has to be totally excluded.
Chocolate is certainly not an allergy. Dark chocolate is worst of all, and provokes the biggest reaction. Observation suggests it is the cocoa not some other ingredient, but I have no idea why it should be having such an affect on him. I am very sure it is not just a reaction to us placing limits, but I do wonder if the effect of chocolate might be functional for him. It trashes his emotional control in a way that nothing else does. I know that pmt does the same to me, and while it is unpleasant it is something I need. He is highly sensitive and has a great deal of emotional intelligence and I do wonder if he needs the chocolate to give him a break from his rather tight control on his emotions. If that is so I really need to not interfere with him regulating himself in that way.
I think we will have to allow chocolate without placing limits or warning of dire consequences. I am not comfortable with the possibility that we are imposing a limit that is not needed. And I do not want to put the idea in his head and create a self fulfilling prophesy.
If chocolate does always make him unhappy and volatile I suppose we just have to work on strategies to support him and help him through that experience. Most importantly we need to let go of the stress that has surrounded food and let the dust settle.
Thank you.
--- In [email protected], Priscilla Rolvers <p.rolvers@...> wrote:
>
> I've studied cocoa and if he is one of the few with an allergy, the
> behaviour you're talking about isn't a symptom. The behaviour you're
> talking about is the opposite of what I would expect in the use of cocoa.
> Maybe it is the dairy, our the sugar, or both. Or the stress you have
> around chocolate. Maybe he can try raw chocolate?
>
> Love,
> Priscilla
> On Jun 30, 2013 8:00 PM, "ehulani56" <robin.bentley@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > >
> > > ~" But, chocolate makes him angry, upset and volatile and affects his
> > digestion. It is not fun for any of us so we are, reluctantly, excluding
> > it. "~
> > >
> >
> > Is there any possibility that the reason he's "angry, upset and volatile"
> > (which in themselves can upset someone's digestion) because he's getting
> > just a little chocolate? Maybe you're already limiting his intake and
> > that's the source of his emotional state?
> >
> > Knowing you can't have what you really want can cause those feelings. It's
> > happened. I'm not saying it's true in this instance, but it might be worth
> > thinking about.
> >
> > Robin B.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sheryl Lentine
I guess I don't understand why there is a fear of limits. There are limits in every area of life. I understand why there shouldn't be arbitrary and pointless limits, but that is not what this mom was describing. As parents, our job is to encourage and assist our kids in meeting their goals. If chocolate is a problem, there are oodles of other sweets. It is very easy for parents of kids without food intolerances to say, "No, no . . . It can't be that." I have a child with ASD that has twice completely lost his speech after a trial of gluten. I feel like it would NOT be helping and assisting him meet his goals if I were trying to avoid any semblance of a limit and give him gluten, knowing it hurts him. Instead, I work very hard at providing all the things he likes with alternate ingredients that don't harm him. We have cupcakes, candies, breads, candies, etc. that he can eat. It is one of the ways I support my child. We say yes as much as possible, and try to provide alternatives when there must be a "no".
Sent from my iPhone
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 1, 2013, at 4:34 AM, "fishbeeandsnail" <fishbeensnail@...> wrote:
>
>
> Thank you all for your responses. This is helping me clarify my thinking.
>
> Eggs are a serious allergen for him, he reacts to tiny amounts of cross contamination in my diet, through breast milk, and his tongue and throat swell among other symptoms. It really has to be totally excluded.
>
> Chocolate is certainly not an allergy. Dark chocolate is worst of all, and provokes the biggest reaction. Observation suggests it is the cocoa not some other ingredient, but I have no idea why it should be having such an affect on him. I am very sure it is not just a reaction to us placing limits, but I do wonder if the effect of chocolate might be functional for him. It trashes his emotional control in a way that nothing else does. I know that pmt does the same to me, and while it is unpleasant it is something I need. He is highly sensitive and has a great deal of emotional intelligence and I do wonder if he needs the chocolate to give him a break from his rather tight control on his emotions. If that is so I really need to not interfere with him regulating himself in that way.
>
> I think we will have to allow chocolate without placing limits or warning of dire consequences. I am not comfortable with the possibility that we are imposing a limit that is not needed. And I do not want to put the idea in his head and create a self fulfilling prophesy.
>
> If chocolate does always make him unhappy and volatile I suppose we just have to work on strategies to support him and help him through that experience. Most importantly we need to let go of the stress that has surrounded food and let the dust settle.
>
> Thank you.
>
> --- In [email protected], Priscilla Rolvers <p.rolvers@...> wrote:
> >
> > I've studied cocoa and if he is one of the few with an allergy, the
> > behaviour you're talking about isn't a symptom. The behaviour you're
> > talking about is the opposite of what I would expect in the use of cocoa.
> > Maybe it is the dairy, our the sugar, or both. Or the stress you have
> > around chocolate. Maybe he can try raw chocolate?
> >
> > Love,
> > Priscilla
> > On Jun 30, 2013 8:00 PM, "ehulani56" <robin.bentley@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > ~" But, chocolate makes him angry, upset and volatile and affects his
> > > digestion. It is not fun for any of us so we are, reluctantly, excluding
> > > it. "~
> > > >
> > >
> > > Is there any possibility that the reason he's "angry, upset and volatile"
> > > (which in themselves can upset someone's digestion) because he's getting
> > > just a little chocolate? Maybe you're already limiting his intake and
> > > that's the source of his emotional state?
> > >
> > > Knowing you can't have what you really want can cause those feelings. It's
> > > happened. I'm not saying it's true in this instance, but it might be worth
> > > thinking about.
> > >
> > > Robin B.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I guess I don't understand why there is a fear of limits.-=-
No one is afraid.
People are discussing how limits can cause more harm than good, when the limits turn out to be baseless or questionable. Those who have learned that are quite at peace, and are generously helping anyone here who wants to consider putting learning ahead of fads and rumors.
-=-There are limits in every area of life.-=-
Of course there are. No one has suggested otherwise.
Some of those limits are sensible and some are based on traditions and superstitions and dramatic fears of one sort or another. Some are based in magical thinking about how a child's future can be guaranteed one way or another.
-=- I understand why there shouldn't be arbitrary and pointless limits, but that is not what this mom was describing. -=-
If she's not, that's great. If what she described turned out to have any of the questionable elements above, then the relationship with her child would be eroded by the errors. If her concerns turn out to have been fuelled by messages from friends, more than realities from her child, then the mother's own learning is being compromised, and the limits will compromise her child's ability to see clearly what is going on.
Clarity is more important than fear, for unschooling purposes.
http://sandradodd.com/clarity
-=-It is very easy for parents of kids without food intolerances to say, "No, no . . . It can't be that." I have a child with ASD that has twice completely lost his speech after a trial of gluten. -=-
I had to look up "ASD," because it's not normal English. If you have a child you prefer to think of and refer to as "a child with ASD" then by his name and age, then for unschooling I believe that in itself to be a problem.
It is very easy for parents who are looking for food intolerances to say "Yes, YES! THIS is what it is!"
Daily, hourly, by the moment, some poor mother is told that it's her fault her child is imperfect, and that if she changes his diet he will be cured and whole. Or even a little better. And she looks for that little bit better, rather than feel she's wasting time and money.
Meanwhile, unschoolers are finding ways to gradually make choices that bring more peace and togetherness, without the labels and limits that are so prevalent around them. If a child is uncomfortable, he can be made more comfortable immediately by an attentive parent. Or a frightened parent can look away from the child and find countless "cures" and treatments that will cost them time, money, frustration and sorrow. Their child will still be the child he was, only his parents will have been looking at other things and other people, rather than really being with him.
ASD is "Autism Spectrum Disorders"�please do, those who are unwilling to let labels go, write them out. There is a big world filled with people who DO want to find what's wrong with children. I would like to maintain this discussion as a little corner where we can discuss what is right and good, with as little use of sorting, grading, and labels as possible. http://sandradodd.com/labels
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
No one is afraid.
People are discussing how limits can cause more harm than good, when the limits turn out to be baseless or questionable. Those who have learned that are quite at peace, and are generously helping anyone here who wants to consider putting learning ahead of fads and rumors.
-=-There are limits in every area of life.-=-
Of course there are. No one has suggested otherwise.
Some of those limits are sensible and some are based on traditions and superstitions and dramatic fears of one sort or another. Some are based in magical thinking about how a child's future can be guaranteed one way or another.
-=- I understand why there shouldn't be arbitrary and pointless limits, but that is not what this mom was describing. -=-
If she's not, that's great. If what she described turned out to have any of the questionable elements above, then the relationship with her child would be eroded by the errors. If her concerns turn out to have been fuelled by messages from friends, more than realities from her child, then the mother's own learning is being compromised, and the limits will compromise her child's ability to see clearly what is going on.
Clarity is more important than fear, for unschooling purposes.
http://sandradodd.com/clarity
-=-It is very easy for parents of kids without food intolerances to say, "No, no . . . It can't be that." I have a child with ASD that has twice completely lost his speech after a trial of gluten. -=-
I had to look up "ASD," because it's not normal English. If you have a child you prefer to think of and refer to as "a child with ASD" then by his name and age, then for unschooling I believe that in itself to be a problem.
It is very easy for parents who are looking for food intolerances to say "Yes, YES! THIS is what it is!"
Daily, hourly, by the moment, some poor mother is told that it's her fault her child is imperfect, and that if she changes his diet he will be cured and whole. Or even a little better. And she looks for that little bit better, rather than feel she's wasting time and money.
Meanwhile, unschoolers are finding ways to gradually make choices that bring more peace and togetherness, without the labels and limits that are so prevalent around them. If a child is uncomfortable, he can be made more comfortable immediately by an attentive parent. Or a frightened parent can look away from the child and find countless "cures" and treatments that will cost them time, money, frustration and sorrow. Their child will still be the child he was, only his parents will have been looking at other things and other people, rather than really being with him.
ASD is "Autism Spectrum Disorders"�please do, those who are unwilling to let labels go, write them out. There is a big world filled with people who DO want to find what's wrong with children. I would like to maintain this discussion as a little corner where we can discuss what is right and good, with as little use of sorting, grading, and labels as possible. http://sandradodd.com/labels
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-It trashes his emotional control in a way that nothing else does. I know that pmt does the same to me, and while it is unpleasant it is something I need. He is highly sensitive and has a great deal of emotional intelligence and I do wonder if he needs the chocolate to give him a break from his rather tight control on his emotions. If that is so I really need to not interfere with him regulating himself in that way.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/choices
"Emotional control" is not a worthy goal, for unschooling, it turns out, after years of watching what helps and what doesn't.
Everyone has calmer times and more stressful times. It's good to have reasons on which to base decisions, and to learn to make decisions when stressed as well as when calm. It takes a while, but choices are WAY better than thoughts of control (self or otherwise).
http://sandradodd.com/control
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://sandradodd.com/choices
"Emotional control" is not a worthy goal, for unschooling, it turns out, after years of watching what helps and what doesn't.
Everyone has calmer times and more stressful times. It's good to have reasons on which to base decisions, and to learn to make decisions when stressed as well as when calm. It takes a while, but choices are WAY better than thoughts of control (self or otherwise).
http://sandradodd.com/control
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sheryl Lentine
Sandra,
I read your reply and at first it angered me. Of course, I don't "prefer" to think of him as just a child with autism. I think of him as my sweet and wonderfully talented little boy. Since you all don't know him, I felt the diagnosis was a valid part of what I was saying. His name is Providence. He is 7, and has always been at home, never schooled.
After I got over the irritated feeling of having been "criticized" for what I saw as helping and supporting my child, I thought maybe I should read your links. It was a good call :) I do think I understand the viewpoint, but practically, how can it play out? When a child is 3, not making any efforts to communicate, and not seeming to be aware of others, you would not try to see if there is a way to help him?
I also understand that there is a mad rush to "diagnose" every difference there is among kids and that in many cases, the diagnosis should be "children weren't designed to sit in a classroom all day." But isn't there such a thing as real problems? How are social, behavioral, or emotional problems any different than physical ones? If a child has asthma, that is not something that people would argue with. It's not likely that they would suggest you not medicate them and think its all in the mothers head.
I'm just trying to understand. I want to do what's best for my children (there are 6 of them). Providence is the youngest. We have been (very) slowly moving towards unschooling from a relaxed homeschooling approach and I still have much to learn.
Blessings,
Sheryl
Sent from my iPhone
I read your reply and at first it angered me. Of course, I don't "prefer" to think of him as just a child with autism. I think of him as my sweet and wonderfully talented little boy. Since you all don't know him, I felt the diagnosis was a valid part of what I was saying. His name is Providence. He is 7, and has always been at home, never schooled.
After I got over the irritated feeling of having been "criticized" for what I saw as helping and supporting my child, I thought maybe I should read your links. It was a good call :) I do think I understand the viewpoint, but practically, how can it play out? When a child is 3, not making any efforts to communicate, and not seeming to be aware of others, you would not try to see if there is a way to help him?
I also understand that there is a mad rush to "diagnose" every difference there is among kids and that in many cases, the diagnosis should be "children weren't designed to sit in a classroom all day." But isn't there such a thing as real problems? How are social, behavioral, or emotional problems any different than physical ones? If a child has asthma, that is not something that people would argue with. It's not likely that they would suggest you not medicate them and think its all in the mothers head.
I'm just trying to understand. I want to do what's best for my children (there are 6 of them). Providence is the youngest. We have been (very) slowly moving towards unschooling from a relaxed homeschooling approach and I still have much to learn.
Blessings,
Sheryl
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 1, 2013, at 9:31 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-I guess I don't understand why there is a fear of limits.-=-
>
> No one is afraid.
> People are discussing how limits can cause more harm than good, when the limits turn out to be baseless or questionable. Those who have learned that are quite at peace, and are generously helping anyone here who wants to consider putting learning ahead of fads and rumors.
>
> -=-There are limits in every area of life.-=-
>
> Of course there are. No one has suggested otherwise.
> Some of those limits are sensible and some are based on traditions and superstitions and dramatic fears of one sort or another. Some are based in magical thinking about how a child's future can be guaranteed one way or another.
>
> -=- I understand why there shouldn't be arbitrary and pointless limits, but that is not what this mom was describing. -=-
>
> If she's not, that's great. If what she described turned out to have any of the questionable elements above, then the relationship with her child would be eroded by the errors. If her concerns turn out to have been fuelled by messages from friends, more than realities from her child, then the mother's own learning is being compromised, and the limits will compromise her child's ability to see clearly what is going on.
>
> Clarity is more important than fear, for unschooling purposes.
> http://sandradodd.com/clarity
>
> -=-It is very easy for parents of kids without food intolerances to say, "No, no . . . It can't be that." I have a child with ASD that has twice completely lost his speech after a trial of gluten. -=-
>
> I had to look up "ASD," because it's not normal English. If you have a child you prefer to think of and refer to as "a child with ASD" then by his name and age, then for unschooling I believe that in itself to be a problem.
>
> It is very easy for parents who are looking for food intolerances to say "Yes, YES! THIS is what it is!"
> Daily, hourly, by the moment, some poor mother is told that it's her fault her child is imperfect, and that if she changes his diet he will be cured and whole. Or even a little better. And she looks for that little bit better, rather than feel she's wasting time and money.
>
> Meanwhile, unschoolers are finding ways to gradually make choices that bring more peace and togetherness, without the labels and limits that are so prevalent around them. If a child is uncomfortable, he can be made more comfortable immediately by an attentive parent. Or a frightened parent can look away from the child and find countless "cures" and treatments that will cost them time, money, frustration and sorrow. Their child will still be the child he was, only his parents will have been looking at other things and other people, rather than really being with him.
>
> ASD is "Autism Spectrum Disorders"—please do, those who are unwilling to let labels go, write them out. There is a big world filled with people who DO want to find what's wrong with children. I would like to maintain this discussion as a little corner where we can discuss what is right and good, with as little use of sorting, grading, and labels as possible. http://sandradodd.com/labels
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
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>
CASS KOTRBA
-=- It is very easy for parents who are looking for food intolerances to say "Yes, YES! THIS is what it is!"
Daily, hourly, by the moment, some poor mother is told that it's her fault her child is imperfect, and that if she changes his diet he will be cured and whole. Or even a little better. And she looks for that little bit better, rather than feel she's wasting time and money.
Meanwhile, unschoolers are finding ways to gradually make choices that bring more peace and togetherness, without the labels and limits that are so prevalent around them. If a child is uncomfortable, he can be made more comfortable immediately by an attentive parent. Or a frightened parent can look away from the child and find countless "cures" and treatments that will cost them time, money, frustration and sorrow. Their child will still be the child he was, only his parents will have been looking at other things and other people, rather than really being with him. -=-
I whole heartedly agree with Sandra's above statement as it describes my experience quite well. My daughter (10) has suffered from asthma symptoms & a stuffy nose since she was 2. I was very anxiety filled because of that and other factors in my life. I cast about for answers and cures. Our lives were filled with appointments and strict limits on food. But the asthma & stuffy nose persisted, even worsened. I'm not saying that I didn't learn anything useful during that time or that we didn't benefit at all from the other things we tried but the most dramatic changes came when we started radical unschooling (we started in early September). There were lots of changes that we made, one of them being releasing control of food, which was scary for me as I was fearful that her symptoms would worsen. In February she told me that she was breathing out of her nose more and more. In March she told me she is a nose breather now. I cried silent tears of joy as I had been seeking that goal for many years. She had been "getting tight" with increasing regularity to the point where she was getting tight every night, despite our use of inhaled steriods. She hasn't been tight in about 5 months now & is medication free. One day a few months ago I had PMS and was weak and I snapped at her a few times, being impatient and irritable. She snored that night for the first time in awhile. It took 3 days for it to clear up. I have never spoken to her like that since. I am stunned, amazed and very grateful for the wisdom I have learned and continue to learn on this list. It is amazing the impact it has had on all of our lives. And it has been surprising to experience how much our emotions impact our health. Even her skin, previously dry and bumpy, has improved. Radical unschooling has helped us be smooth and soft, inside and out. :D Thanks to all who write with questions and with insight.
-Cass
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Daily, hourly, by the moment, some poor mother is told that it's her fault her child is imperfect, and that if she changes his diet he will be cured and whole. Or even a little better. And she looks for that little bit better, rather than feel she's wasting time and money.
Meanwhile, unschoolers are finding ways to gradually make choices that bring more peace and togetherness, without the labels and limits that are so prevalent around them. If a child is uncomfortable, he can be made more comfortable immediately by an attentive parent. Or a frightened parent can look away from the child and find countless "cures" and treatments that will cost them time, money, frustration and sorrow. Their child will still be the child he was, only his parents will have been looking at other things and other people, rather than really being with him. -=-
I whole heartedly agree with Sandra's above statement as it describes my experience quite well. My daughter (10) has suffered from asthma symptoms & a stuffy nose since she was 2. I was very anxiety filled because of that and other factors in my life. I cast about for answers and cures. Our lives were filled with appointments and strict limits on food. But the asthma & stuffy nose persisted, even worsened. I'm not saying that I didn't learn anything useful during that time or that we didn't benefit at all from the other things we tried but the most dramatic changes came when we started radical unschooling (we started in early September). There were lots of changes that we made, one of them being releasing control of food, which was scary for me as I was fearful that her symptoms would worsen. In February she told me that she was breathing out of her nose more and more. In March she told me she is a nose breather now. I cried silent tears of joy as I had been seeking that goal for many years. She had been "getting tight" with increasing regularity to the point where she was getting tight every night, despite our use of inhaled steriods. She hasn't been tight in about 5 months now & is medication free. One day a few months ago I had PMS and was weak and I snapped at her a few times, being impatient and irritable. She snored that night for the first time in awhile. It took 3 days for it to clear up. I have never spoken to her like that since. I am stunned, amazed and very grateful for the wisdom I have learned and continue to learn on this list. It is amazing the impact it has had on all of our lives. And it has been surprising to experience how much our emotions impact our health. Even her skin, previously dry and bumpy, has improved. Radical unschooling has helped us be smooth and soft, inside and out. :D Thanks to all who write with questions and with insight.
-Cass
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-But isn't there such a thing as real problems? How are social, behavioral, or emotional problems any different than physical ones? -=-
Yes, but unschooling works the same way in all those cases.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.nl/2013/07/what-unschooling-is-about.html
(A very nice summary of unschooling, which would apply to all kinds of learners with all sorts of intelligences, or lacks in various areas)
http://sandradodd.com/intelligences/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yes, but unschooling works the same way in all those cases.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.nl/2013/07/what-unschooling-is-about.html
(A very nice summary of unschooling, which would apply to all kinds of learners with all sorts of intelligences, or lacks in various areas)
http://sandradodd.com/intelligences/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"fishbeeandsnail" <fishbeensnail@...> wrote:
I wonder if it's a hormonal effect - that's usually the connection with chocolate and migraines, for instance, and it would explain an emotional reaction.
Also keep in mind that young kids can't always tell you when they're having a physical reaction - not just that they don't have the words, but they don't really know whats going on. So it's possible he could be getting an upset stomach or a headache and not know how to express that - from his perspective, he feels bad and wrong and "off" and is using behavior to express that.
Plan ahead a bit for when you know he's going to have chocolate - that's tricky, because on the one hand as you said, you don't want to create a self-fulfilling prophecy, but on the other you don't want to set him up for an ugly situation if you can avoid it. You could also experiment a bit with buffering the effects - if you know dark chocolate is the worst, offer other things along with it, other food and drinks and see what happens. In fact, unless he absolutely adores dark chocolate over other kinds, it should be relatively easy to avoid - easy to offer milk chocolate and the really, really cheap stuff that has hardly any chocolate in it at all.
But it's also possible you've been seeing a chocolate problem when there's something else going on, especially if there's been stress over food in other areas - you're "primed" to see food as a culprit, and it's possible that by backing off and looking at a bigger picture you'll start to see a different set of patterns.
As he gets older things will change. He'll be older, for one ;) and better able to talk about what's going on. And if he doesn't feel backed into a corner, he's much, much more likely to say "you know, I want to have a good time and I won't if I eat this."
My stepson gets intermittent pressure from his bio mom to eat/not eat certain things and ways... usually whatever is the latest food fad, and that was true during the years we were unschooling (he's 19 now). Over the years I've gotten to see how that pressure affects his ability to make decisions, and it's really striking. When he's getting a lot of pressure, he's more likely to make decisions defiantly, or passive-aggressively. When the pressure is low, he's much more thoughtful about what he eats.
---Meredith
>> Chocolate is certainly not an allergy. Dark chocolate is worst of all, and provokes the biggest reaction. Observation suggests it is the cocoa not some other ingredient, but I have no idea why it should be having such an affect on him.**********
I wonder if it's a hormonal effect - that's usually the connection with chocolate and migraines, for instance, and it would explain an emotional reaction.
Also keep in mind that young kids can't always tell you when they're having a physical reaction - not just that they don't have the words, but they don't really know whats going on. So it's possible he could be getting an upset stomach or a headache and not know how to express that - from his perspective, he feels bad and wrong and "off" and is using behavior to express that.
Plan ahead a bit for when you know he's going to have chocolate - that's tricky, because on the one hand as you said, you don't want to create a self-fulfilling prophecy, but on the other you don't want to set him up for an ugly situation if you can avoid it. You could also experiment a bit with buffering the effects - if you know dark chocolate is the worst, offer other things along with it, other food and drinks and see what happens. In fact, unless he absolutely adores dark chocolate over other kinds, it should be relatively easy to avoid - easy to offer milk chocolate and the really, really cheap stuff that has hardly any chocolate in it at all.
But it's also possible you've been seeing a chocolate problem when there's something else going on, especially if there's been stress over food in other areas - you're "primed" to see food as a culprit, and it's possible that by backing off and looking at a bigger picture you'll start to see a different set of patterns.
>>> If chocolate does always make him unhappy and volatile I suppose we just have to work on strategies to support him and help him through that experience.************
As he gets older things will change. He'll be older, for one ;) and better able to talk about what's going on. And if he doesn't feel backed into a corner, he's much, much more likely to say "you know, I want to have a good time and I won't if I eat this."
My stepson gets intermittent pressure from his bio mom to eat/not eat certain things and ways... usually whatever is the latest food fad, and that was true during the years we were unschooling (he's 19 now). Over the years I've gotten to see how that pressure affects his ability to make decisions, and it's really striking. When he's getting a lot of pressure, he's more likely to make decisions defiantly, or passive-aggressively. When the pressure is low, he's much more thoughtful about what he eats.
---Meredith
Meredith
Sheryl Lentine <sheryl@...> wrote:
Help him what? What's interesting to him? What's important to him? That's where communication between parents and children Really starts, with parents making the effort to understand where our kids are coming from.
When my daughter was 3, I could have called her "uncommunicative" if I wanted to look at her through that lens. She didn't want words. It was reeeeeeallllly hard to explain this to people - she wasn't non-verbal, didn't have any language delays, enunciated clearly and understood what was said, but she didn't want words. She could tolerate a few at a time and then would shush whoever was trying to talk to her. If you went too many words past her shush point, she would start to shut down - curl up on herself like a turtle going into a shell, and go very, very still. I learned not to go past the shush point. I learned to watch more than I spoke. I learned to speak in sound bites, packing meaning into three word sentences with a lot of body language. I learned to communicate in ways that worked for Mo... and found that I hadn't really understood communication before. I understood talking.
What does your child with asthma want to do? That question doesn't change if the problem isn't overtly physical. Unschooling still starts there.
What does your son want to do? Does he want to go through the rigmarole of "communication" or would he prefer you meet him where he is, come into his world and see what he sees? Sometimes he might be interested in the "communication" song and dance. Other times, not so much - it's not very interesting to him. So you can see what Is interesting and join him there. And by doing so, you're offering him real communication, not "communication" as a set of rules he's expected to follow to get people to leave him alone. And he'll learn from that - maybe not the way you would learn, or expect him to learn, but he will be learning because he's a person and that's what people do.
If he doesn't like to "communicate" the hardest thing for him may be the forced association with so many people who won't be able to meet him where he is and actually communicate with him - I don't know how old your kids are, but younger kids won't be able to see another person's perspectives very well. As he gets older, he'll be better able to handle that, but especially when he's little he's going to need a lot of protection so he doesn't feel like he's being bullied by the whole family to do something he doesn't care about.
Something you might find helpful is to seek out stories By adults on the autism spectrum describing how they view the world. Those kinds of stories can be very interesting - sad, sometimes... I have a friend who struggled hard for decades and has very low self-esteem from the way he was treated, and only as an adult found a community where his unique viewpoints were valued. Learning to see the world from a more autistic perspective can also help you see how requiring "communication" can get in the way of someone exploring the world - in the same way requiring school work can get in the way of other kinds of learning.
---Meredith
>I do think I understand the viewpoint, but practically, how can it play out? When a child is 3, not making any efforts to communicate, and not seeming to be aware of others, you would not try to see if there is a way to help him?***************
Help him what? What's interesting to him? What's important to him? That's where communication between parents and children Really starts, with parents making the effort to understand where our kids are coming from.
When my daughter was 3, I could have called her "uncommunicative" if I wanted to look at her through that lens. She didn't want words. It was reeeeeeallllly hard to explain this to people - she wasn't non-verbal, didn't have any language delays, enunciated clearly and understood what was said, but she didn't want words. She could tolerate a few at a time and then would shush whoever was trying to talk to her. If you went too many words past her shush point, she would start to shut down - curl up on herself like a turtle going into a shell, and go very, very still. I learned not to go past the shush point. I learned to watch more than I spoke. I learned to speak in sound bites, packing meaning into three word sentences with a lot of body language. I learned to communicate in ways that worked for Mo... and found that I hadn't really understood communication before. I understood talking.
>But isn't there such a thing as real problems? How are social, behavioral, or emotional problems any different than physical ones? If a child has asthma, that is not something that people would argue with. It's not likely that they would suggest you not medicate them and think its all in the mothers head.************
What does your child with asthma want to do? That question doesn't change if the problem isn't overtly physical. Unschooling still starts there.
What does your son want to do? Does he want to go through the rigmarole of "communication" or would he prefer you meet him where he is, come into his world and see what he sees? Sometimes he might be interested in the "communication" song and dance. Other times, not so much - it's not very interesting to him. So you can see what Is interesting and join him there. And by doing so, you're offering him real communication, not "communication" as a set of rules he's expected to follow to get people to leave him alone. And he'll learn from that - maybe not the way you would learn, or expect him to learn, but he will be learning because he's a person and that's what people do.
>>I want to do what's best for my children (there are 6 of them). Providence is the youngest.***********
If he doesn't like to "communicate" the hardest thing for him may be the forced association with so many people who won't be able to meet him where he is and actually communicate with him - I don't know how old your kids are, but younger kids won't be able to see another person's perspectives very well. As he gets older, he'll be better able to handle that, but especially when he's little he's going to need a lot of protection so he doesn't feel like he's being bullied by the whole family to do something he doesn't care about.
Something you might find helpful is to seek out stories By adults on the autism spectrum describing how they view the world. Those kinds of stories can be very interesting - sad, sometimes... I have a friend who struggled hard for decades and has very low self-esteem from the way he was treated, and only as an adult found a community where his unique viewpoints were valued. Learning to see the world from a more autistic perspective can also help you see how requiring "communication" can get in the way of someone exploring the world - in the same way requiring school work can get in the way of other kinds of learning.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-I learned to communicate in ways that worked for Mo... and found that I hadn't really understood communication before. I understood talking. -=-
Most moms talk too much.
I see moms who talk and talk and talk without noticing their children are not only not listening, but the noise is going in the negative column in the mom credit ledger.
Mothers can communicate with infants without talking. Mothers can communicate with husbands without talking. Sometimes they don't even try, with kids once the kids are verbal.
I love the three-word measure. I stayed with a mom once who made long sing-songy speeches about (it seemed like) everything. The kids didn't listen at all. All the songs sounded the same. I suggested she try to say things in five words. She had never thought of that. The new, short messages were heard (at first, at least, I hear).
Meredith wrote: " I learned to speak in sound bites, packing meaning into three word sentences with a lot of body language. I learned to communicate in ways that worked for Mo... and found that I hadn't really understood communication before. I understood talking. "
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Most moms talk too much.
I see moms who talk and talk and talk without noticing their children are not only not listening, but the noise is going in the negative column in the mom credit ledger.
Mothers can communicate with infants without talking. Mothers can communicate with husbands without talking. Sometimes they don't even try, with kids once the kids are verbal.
I love the three-word measure. I stayed with a mom once who made long sing-songy speeches about (it seemed like) everything. The kids didn't listen at all. All the songs sounded the same. I suggested she try to say things in five words. She had never thought of that. The new, short messages were heard (at first, at least, I hear).
Meredith wrote: " I learned to speak in sound bites, packing meaning into three word sentences with a lot of body language. I learned to communicate in ways that worked for Mo... and found that I hadn't really understood communication before. I understood talking. "
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fishbeeandsnail
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
My childhood was traumatic and because of that my 20s were filled with acute mental distress. I spent a long time struggling with emotions I could not 'control'. Eventually I learned that what I was trying to do was to stop my emotions and keep them in a box. Well, that didn't work very well. Even with a box made of very strong psychiatric medication the lid wouldn't stay on. Eventually I realized that all of this mental pain was no different to physical pain and that pain is just a message that something is amiss and needs healing. emotional stability only happened when I let go and allowed myself to process and understand the causes of those painful emotions. I also needed to learn a lot of skills to maintain my emotional balance. Those skills are all about listening to my self and not ignoring my needs and knowing how to process and respond to emotions in a healthy way. I see in my son that he instinctively 'hears' his internal signals and I see how children have to be taught to stop listening. Helping him learn to meet his needs and understand his emotions is about working with him to find what works for him.
I suppose what I think of as emotional control is is really emotional intelligence and good mental hygiene.
When I said that chocolate trashes his emotional control I meant that after he eats chocolate he becomes overwhelmed by strong emotions which he struggles to understand and cope with. At other times I see him retreat from the depth of his emotions and I suspect he finds strong emotions frightening. I see him dealing with that in a variety of ways and I wonder if that is part of his reason for choosing to eat chocolate (and yes, I do think the effect is hormonal). He needs to experience those strong emotions in a safe way so that he can learn to manage them and stop being afraid of them.
So it is not 'emotional control' that he is trying to learn at all. We model and suggest various ways of handling strong emotions, like breathing deeply, using language to name his emotions and finding a physical outlet like running fast or hitting or breaking things. And we try to see the communicative value. None of that is about control.
Our asinine attempt to restrict chocolate was a bad idea. Our boy knew it and he was making it plain that he strongly disagreed with us. I hope that next time he is the only person who needs to tell me that I am wrong.
Interestingly, egg based restrictions are not an issue at all. He totally accepts that he needs to avoid egg and he had been trying to do so for quite a long time before we realized what was making him ill.
> "Emotional control" is not a worthy goal, for unschooling, it turns out, after years of watching what helps and what doesn't.Thank you, that provoked many thoughts and a real clarification of my thinking. Emotional control is not a good description of what I mean at all. For me it has come to mean a way of thinking that helps me avoid rule bound and knee jerk emotional decisions and repression and shame about strong emotions. And you are right that 'emotional control' is a poor choice of words for that.
>
> Everyone has calmer times and more stressful times. It's good to have reasons on which to base decisions, and to learn to make decisions when stressed as well as when calm. It takes a while, but choices are WAY better than thoughts of control (self or otherwise).
>
My childhood was traumatic and because of that my 20s were filled with acute mental distress. I spent a long time struggling with emotions I could not 'control'. Eventually I learned that what I was trying to do was to stop my emotions and keep them in a box. Well, that didn't work very well. Even with a box made of very strong psychiatric medication the lid wouldn't stay on. Eventually I realized that all of this mental pain was no different to physical pain and that pain is just a message that something is amiss and needs healing. emotional stability only happened when I let go and allowed myself to process and understand the causes of those painful emotions. I also needed to learn a lot of skills to maintain my emotional balance. Those skills are all about listening to my self and not ignoring my needs and knowing how to process and respond to emotions in a healthy way. I see in my son that he instinctively 'hears' his internal signals and I see how children have to be taught to stop listening. Helping him learn to meet his needs and understand his emotions is about working with him to find what works for him.
I suppose what I think of as emotional control is is really emotional intelligence and good mental hygiene.
When I said that chocolate trashes his emotional control I meant that after he eats chocolate he becomes overwhelmed by strong emotions which he struggles to understand and cope with. At other times I see him retreat from the depth of his emotions and I suspect he finds strong emotions frightening. I see him dealing with that in a variety of ways and I wonder if that is part of his reason for choosing to eat chocolate (and yes, I do think the effect is hormonal). He needs to experience those strong emotions in a safe way so that he can learn to manage them and stop being afraid of them.
So it is not 'emotional control' that he is trying to learn at all. We model and suggest various ways of handling strong emotions, like breathing deeply, using language to name his emotions and finding a physical outlet like running fast or hitting or breaking things. And we try to see the communicative value. None of that is about control.
Our asinine attempt to restrict chocolate was a bad idea. Our boy knew it and he was making it plain that he strongly disagreed with us. I hope that next time he is the only person who needs to tell me that I am wrong.
Interestingly, egg based restrictions are not an issue at all. He totally accepts that he needs to avoid egg and he had been trying to do so for quite a long time before we realized what was making him ill.
Annie
>That is what I try to do (with the help of this list).
> If chocolate does always make him unhappy and volatile I suppose we just have to work on strategies to support him and help him through that experience. Most importantly we need to let go of the stress that has surrounded food and let the dust settle.
>
My kids and I all have various food intolerances which can impact us physically or behaviourally/emotionally. At times we've had quite strict food restrictions, which helped a lot with sleep, skin, anger, irritability, tummies, all sorts of things. But after a while the stress of deprivation started to impact on my emotional state anyway, and I could see that in the long term it could damage relationships.
So now we each choose what we eat and whether we feel like coping with the consequences. I'm much better myself at choosing in the moment whether I'd like to eat something or not and how I'll cope with how I'll feel later - and its a much happier way of managing it than giving myself a blanket 'no'. My kids are also learning about the choices they make and finding out what works for them. If its something that they usually have a strong reaction to I'll sometimes remind them and offer them an alternative, I leave the choice to them however.
What I'm really working on now is being there with them in the moment if they do have a reaction later, especially when its that out of control feeling that I know I also get with some foods (others have mentioned Pre Menstrual Tension and for me that is what a food reaction can feel like). So we're working on ways to help them through that feeling and helping them make choices which don't impact negatively on others around them. If I know they are feeling out of control I will do what I can to lessen the impact of others on them, and make sure they aren't put in a situation which will be too hard to manage at that time. Which is what I do at other times as well, so its relatively new for me to be also apply that extra awareness to food reactions instead of trying to avoid the reactions.
Annie
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm much better myself at choosing in the moment whether I'd like to eat something or not and how I'll cope with how I'll feel later - and its a much happier way of managing it than giving myself a blanket 'no'. My kids are also learning about the choices they make and finding out what works for them. -=-
And sometimes moms are wrong, which is the worst part of all.
Millions of mothers have told more millions of children "If you eat that, it will make you sick." And millions of children have eaten it anyway, NOT gotten sick, but were soon sick of their mothers.
IF something does "make a child sick," the child will learn to avoid it at crucial moments. That goes for candy, bread, milk, and mothers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
And sometimes moms are wrong, which is the worst part of all.
Millions of mothers have told more millions of children "If you eat that, it will make you sick." And millions of children have eaten it anyway, NOT gotten sick, but were soon sick of their mothers.
IF something does "make a child sick," the child will learn to avoid it at crucial moments. That goes for candy, bread, milk, and mothers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chris ester
On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 5:34 AM, fishbeeandsnail <fishbeensnail@...>wrote:
compounds that are similar to those that are in coca (the product that
cocaine is derived from) and has effects on serotonin levels. If he is
sensitive to it, then it may actually just be a literal lack of tolerance.
I am not suggesting a limitation, but you may want to read up on the
compounds in chocolate and their potential effects. I say 'potential'
because every person is different.
I am a chemically sensitive person. I used to use caffeine and chocolate
in combination to "wire" myself for study sessions in college. Afterwards,
I would have an exhausted 'crash' period.
A friend of mine, who is a neurobiologist, was fascinated that my brain was
sensitive enough to react that way to legal substances....
after the emotional "release"?
I am not sure why you need to trash your emotional control. If you feel
that emotional expression is somehow problematic, perhaps that is something
to think about. PMT is an internal process for you, not a reaction to a
substance that is being introduced.
Chris
> **Chocolate, like many foods, has a neurological effect. It contains
> >>>>>> Chocolate is certainly not an allergy. Dark chocolate is worst of
> all, and provokes the biggest reaction. Observation suggests it is the
> cocoa not some other ingredient, but I have no idea why it should be having
> such an affect on him.<<<<<<<
>
compounds that are similar to those that are in coca (the product that
cocaine is derived from) and has effects on serotonin levels. If he is
sensitive to it, then it may actually just be a literal lack of tolerance.
I am not suggesting a limitation, but you may want to read up on the
compounds in chocolate and their potential effects. I say 'potential'
because every person is different.
I am a chemically sensitive person. I used to use caffeine and chocolate
in combination to "wire" myself for study sessions in college. Afterwards,
I would have an exhausted 'crash' period.
A friend of mine, who is a neurobiologist, was fascinated that my brain was
sensitive enough to react that way to legal substances....
> >>>>>>I am very sure it is not just a reaction to us placing limits, but IDoes you son feel that he "needs" to take such a break or does he feel bad
> do wonder if the effect of chocolate might be functional for him. It
> trashes his emotional control in a way that nothing else does. I know that
> pmt does the same to me, and while it is unpleasant it is something I need.
> He is highly sensitive and has a great deal of emotional intelligence and I
> do wonder if he needs the chocolate to give him a break from his rather
> tight control on his emotions. If that is so I really need to not interfere
> with him regulating himself in that way.<<<<<
>
after the emotional "release"?
I am not sure why you need to trash your emotional control. If you feel
that emotional expression is somehow problematic, perhaps that is something
to think about. PMT is an internal process for you, not a reaction to a
substance that is being introduced.
Chris
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> --- In [email protected], Priscilla Rolvers <p.rolvers@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I've studied cocoa and if he is one of the few with an allergy, the
> > behaviour you're talking about isn't a symptom. The behaviour you're
> > talking about is the opposite of what I would expect in the use of cocoa.
> > Maybe it is the dairy, our the sugar, or both. Or the stress you have
> > around chocolate. Maybe he can try raw chocolate?
> >
> > Love,
> > Priscilla
> > On Jun 30, 2013 8:00 PM, "ehulani56" <robin.bentley@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > ~" But, chocolate makes him angry, upset and volatile and affects his
> > > digestion. It is not fun for any of us so we are, reluctantly,
> excluding
> > > it. "~
> > > >
> > >
> > > Is there any possibility that the reason he's "angry, upset and
> volatile"
> > > (which in themselves can upset someone's digestion) because he's
> getting
> > > just a little chocolate? Maybe you're already limiting his intake and
> > > that's the source of his emotional state?
> > >
> > > Knowing you can't have what you really want can cause those feelings.
> It's
> > > happened. I'm not saying it's true in this instance, but it might be
> worth
> > > thinking about.
> > >
> > > Robin B.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
chris ester
On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 4:30 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
that can actually result in death. If you have watched a loved one turn
purple because their throat was swelling shut, it is hard to "let go" of
the fear.
Common sense and preparedness are a help, I always carried liquid benadryl
in case of an allergy emergency. Luckily we NEVER needed it for my
children (I had to use it often for an adult family member though). But it
helped me relax about things and say "yes" without stress. If there was
ever an indication for the need, I would have gotten an epinephrine pen to
carry, both for the safety of my children and for my peace of mind.
To clarify: My son had had some issues with allergies and reactions. I
didn't just carry around benadryl out of paranoia.
chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> **This is fine for most children, but there are allergies that are deadly and
>
>
> >>>>>IF something does "make a child sick," the child will learn to avoid
> it at crucial moments. That goes for candy, bread, milk, and mothers.
>
>
> Sandra<<<<<<
>
that can actually result in death. If you have watched a loved one turn
purple because their throat was swelling shut, it is hard to "let go" of
the fear.
Common sense and preparedness are a help, I always carried liquid benadryl
in case of an allergy emergency. Luckily we NEVER needed it for my
children (I had to use it often for an adult family member though). But it
helped me relax about things and say "yes" without stress. If there was
ever an indication for the need, I would have gotten an epinephrine pen to
carry, both for the safety of my children and for my peace of mind.
To clarify: My son had had some issues with allergies and reactions. I
didn't just carry around benadryl out of paranoia.
chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 4, 2013, at 5:08 PM, chris ester wrote:
If in the future he's interested in the chemical mechanisms of his reactions, the information will be out there for him. But, "Hmm, I feel funny after eating this kind of chocolate but not that kind of chocolate," and, "This food makes me feel like I do when I eat this kind of chocolate. I wonder if there's a connection?" that's much better science than reading someone else's research.
Joye
> I am not suggesting a limitation, but you may want to read up on theThat feels like a step backward from a child paying attention to how he feels. Scientific information is changing all the time. But someone who can pay attention to how they feel, and sense connections between what they've done or eaten and what's happening to them now has skills he can apply to many areas of life, independent of changing research.
> compounds in chocolate and their potential effects.
If in the future he's interested in the chemical mechanisms of his reactions, the information will be out there for him. But, "Hmm, I feel funny after eating this kind of chocolate but not that kind of chocolate," and, "This food makes me feel like I do when I eat this kind of chocolate. I wonder if there's a connection?" that's much better science than reading someone else's research.
Joye
Sandra Dodd
-=-This is fine for most children, but there are allergies that are deadly and
that can actually result in death. If you have watched a loved one turn
purple because their throat was swelling shut, it is hard to "let go" of
the fear.-=-
Don't put "let go" in quotes as though it's something someone wrote here, please.
Yes, there are deadly allergies.
When a mother fears a deadly allergy because that's the fad, or because she wants to control her child, if a mother claims "you could die" to a child, without a solid base for that, and if it turns out the claim was false, overblown, or made up, the child won't trust the mother as much or as easily afterward, which could be a huge problem for the relationship and for the child's future.
That is what was said.
Carry all the proofs against sudden reactions you want to; I don't care.
Just don't, in this discussion, add to the atmosphere of fear and control that is in large part a fad and will fade and give way to new ways to "be a good mother" that (unfortunately) will also be based more on what other moms are saying and doing than what a mother's very own present child is saying or doing.
The fear in groups and control to save lives has an ancient heritage. It can be learned and discussed and supported ANYwhere else, but here I would like to help the discussion stay on unschooling, and NOT on reasons why unschooling ideas and children learning about their own bodies' needs and reactions should be disregarded.
-=- To clarify: My son had had some issues with allergies and reactions. I
didn't just carry around benadryl out of paranoia. -=-
Benadryl in a mom's purse isn't ruinous of relationships.
Caution is good.
But paranoia and over-reaction DO exist. And lying to children in order to control them or just to impress other mothers DOES exist. I wish it didn't.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that can actually result in death. If you have watched a loved one turn
purple because their throat was swelling shut, it is hard to "let go" of
the fear.-=-
Don't put "let go" in quotes as though it's something someone wrote here, please.
Yes, there are deadly allergies.
When a mother fears a deadly allergy because that's the fad, or because she wants to control her child, if a mother claims "you could die" to a child, without a solid base for that, and if it turns out the claim was false, overblown, or made up, the child won't trust the mother as much or as easily afterward, which could be a huge problem for the relationship and for the child's future.
That is what was said.
Carry all the proofs against sudden reactions you want to; I don't care.
Just don't, in this discussion, add to the atmosphere of fear and control that is in large part a fad and will fade and give way to new ways to "be a good mother" that (unfortunately) will also be based more on what other moms are saying and doing than what a mother's very own present child is saying or doing.
The fear in groups and control to save lives has an ancient heritage. It can be learned and discussed and supported ANYwhere else, but here I would like to help the discussion stay on unschooling, and NOT on reasons why unschooling ideas and children learning about their own bodies' needs and reactions should be disregarded.
-=- To clarify: My son had had some issues with allergies and reactions. I
didn't just carry around benadryl out of paranoia. -=-
Benadryl in a mom's purse isn't ruinous of relationships.
Caution is good.
But paranoia and over-reaction DO exist. And lying to children in order to control them or just to impress other mothers DOES exist. I wish it didn't.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
Upcoming PBS documentary which looks at autism from the perspective of autistic kids as well as adults! From the review:
************
It relates the experiences of this neurological condition from the point of view of autistics themselves. Via the worlds of 4-year-old Violet, teenager Nicholas and middle-aged wife and mother Paula, along with provocative interviews with other autistics, the film recounts the challenges they face living among "normal" people--whom many of them call "neurotypicals."
But the film goes further, revealing the wide spectrum of autism and the creative adaptations people use to "pass" in the normal world. It throws a searching, often comic light on what defines the "normal" mind and calls attention to the subject of neurodiversity as an urgent and multi-layered issue within the 21st-century civil rights debate. Autistics have hardly ever been heard like this. Says one, "I look at neurotypical life and I'm sorry, I really don't want to be one of you."
http://www.pbs.org/pov/neurotypical/film_description.php
**************
It could be a good way for parents (and friends) of people with autism to shift perspective a little and look for ways to be kinder, friendly, more thoughtful from the perspective of their kids/friends.
---Meredith
>> Something you might find helpful is to seek out stories By adults on the autism spectrum describing how they view the world.**********
Upcoming PBS documentary which looks at autism from the perspective of autistic kids as well as adults! From the review:
************
It relates the experiences of this neurological condition from the point of view of autistics themselves. Via the worlds of 4-year-old Violet, teenager Nicholas and middle-aged wife and mother Paula, along with provocative interviews with other autistics, the film recounts the challenges they face living among "normal" people--whom many of them call "neurotypicals."
But the film goes further, revealing the wide spectrum of autism and the creative adaptations people use to "pass" in the normal world. It throws a searching, often comic light on what defines the "normal" mind and calls attention to the subject of neurodiversity as an urgent and multi-layered issue within the 21st-century civil rights debate. Autistics have hardly ever been heard like this. Says one, "I look at neurotypical life and I'm sorry, I really don't want to be one of you."
http://www.pbs.org/pov/neurotypical/film_description.php
**************
It could be a good way for parents (and friends) of people with autism to shift perspective a little and look for ways to be kinder, friendly, more thoughtful from the perspective of their kids/friends.
---Meredith
<fishbeensnail@...>
We had a dramatic turn of events and I wanted to come back to this because it has made me realise how far we have come and how much we have learned over the past few months and especially over the past night. I wanted to share that here.
X's allergy has, we think, worsened and last night he was rushed to hospital with breathing problems. So the thing we were afraid of happened and we are all here to tell the tale. It's not clear if it was anaphylaxis alone that blocked his airway as he seems to have croup along with it, but that's something time will tell us.
Through the course of the night there were things we handled well and things we didn't make such good choices about. Looking back across those decisions I see how powerful a distorting factor fear was in our decision making process. That's the insight I wanted to share.
His breathing went from a bit tight to really bad very quickly and we called for an ambulance. We were scared and so was he. The fear was making his breathing worse and I knew I had to help him be calm by being calm myself. There were horrible worries in my head about what might happen next. I couldn't be calm and hold that fear at the same time so I let it go. Letting it go wasn't shoving it away in a panic. Shoving is tense and releasing that fear meant relaxing and centering myself in that moment. What happened next didn't matter. The next moment didn't exist. The moment I was sharing with my son filled every part of my awareness and as I calmed, so did he. His breathing was still ragged but he had some breast-milk and even dozed on me while we waited for the ambulance. Mindfulness and being totally present with my son is something I work towards, it is an awareness and an ideal that I try to weave into my life. Sometimes I get closer to it than others but I rarely feel I hit the nail on the head. When it mattered it clicked into place. I have never felt so completely present. It helped him so much that I could relax and smile at him and laugh with him and recite the poems that calm him and comfort him. I could not have done that for him if I hadn't let the fear go.
In the ambulance he had refused to have a mask on so at the hospital they gave us a syringe of medicine to give him. That's where I lost my balance and my calm and made the wrong decisions. X's granny, his other mummy and I tried to give X the medicine. He refused. Repeatedly. I could see he was overwhelmed, scared and feeling like decisions were being made for him (which they were) and he quite rightly dug his heels in. X's other mummy and I have had many conversations about X's right to make his own decisions about what happens to his body, though usually those conversations have been about teeth brushing not giving medication.
The more we told him he had to take the medicine, the more we told him he did not have a choice, the more he fought for his right to make that decision for himself. I advocated for him to have time to adjust and understand what was happening but not strongly enough. I should have been advocating for his right to refuse the medicine all together. We didn't give him the time and help he needed to make a decision of his own. We backed him into a corner where he could only react by rejecting the fear and coercion that were being put onto him. Trying to force him to take medicine against his will felt wrong to all of us, and it was wrong. We let fear and stress play a part in our decision and we made the wrong decision because of it. His condition was serious but not life threatening. The steroids would have helped if he had managed to take them, if we had not tried to force him which only resulted in him being sick and not getting any benefit from them anyway. In the end we all came to our senses and calmed down. We collectively stepped back and took a deep breath and found a bit of perspective. I could wish we had done that at the start of that pointless battle of wills instead of at the end. Once we were calm we stopped making the situation worse and realised that helping him to be calm and feel safe was more important and would help him more and faster than getting medicine into him.
Once he was calm and being treated with respect he cooperated with everything else the doctors needed from him. He just really needed us to recognise his right to say no to treatment and his right to have an explanation of what was happening to him and why.
I have learned so much from what I got wrong. Our ideals were put to the test and although we fell down we have been given a powerful insight into why those ideals are important and how they would have helped if we had been true to them.
Allergies are scary. But lots of things in life are scary. Fear does not make my family safer and it takes away from my ability to see clearly and make good choices. Once we got past the first fear driven mistakes our stay at the hospital was not unhappy or unpleasant at all. It was full of love and humour, playing and connecting with each other.
It was a joyful night.
--- In [email protected], <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:"Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>> Something you might find helpful is to seek out stories By adults on the autism spectrum describing how they view the world.**********
Upcoming PBS documentary which looks at autism from the perspective of autistic kids as well as adults! From the review:
************
It relates the experiences of this neurological condition from the point of view of autistics themselves. Via the worlds of 4-year-old Violet, teenager Nicholas and middle-aged wife and mother Paula, along with provocative interviews with other autistics, the film recounts the challenges they face living among "normal" people--whom many of them call "neurotypicals."
But the film goes further, revealing the wide spectrum of autism and the creative adaptations people use to "pass" in the normal world. It throws a searching, often comic light on what defines the "normal" mind and calls attention to the subject of neurodiversity as an urgent and multi-layered issue within the 21st-century civil rights debate. Autistics have hardly ever been heard like this. Says one, "I look at neurotypical life and I'm sorry, I really don't want to be one of you."
http://www.pbs.org/pov/neurotypical/film_description.php
**************
It could be a good way for parents (and friends) of people with autism to shift perspective a little and look for ways to be kinder, friendly, more thoughtful from the perspective of their kids/friends.
---Meredith
Tiffani
<<<<<The more we told him he had to take the medicine, the more we told him he did not have a choice, the more he fought for his right to make that decision for himself. I advocated for him to have time to adjust and understand what was happening but not strongly enough. I should have been advocating for his right to refuse the medicine all together. >>>>>>>
My question isn't about allergies but about medicine. My son came down with strep and was given
antibiotics. He did not want to take them. He is 9. I told him they would make him feel better and he still was not interested in taking them. His older brother came up with a game they played each time he took the medicine. And then we gave him a quarter. We completely bribed him to take it. I would say he was not given a choice. How would you advise a family in this situation. I do not force my kids to take medicine unless I feel it is necessary for them to recover. Like I do not make them take cough syrup or Tylenol unless they want to. With the antibiotics my reason was 2 fold. I wanted him to get better and I did not want the rest of the family to get it.
Tiffani