Odd philosophical questions
Sandra Dodd
This came in my e-mail yesterday (lots of people's, I guess, as it was in an automated mailing).
I want to discuss it a bit�not with particulars of who wrote it, and please don't be naming any names in the discussion. Just the ideas, please.
-=-There is an unfortunate amount of preoccupation in some parts of the homeschooling community about the meaning of the term "radical unschooling," and its related rules and principles. -=-
"Unfortunate" in what way?
Who could be harmed by the voluntary discussion of unschooling? No one is forced to care about the meanings of terms.
Then people discuss something because they enjoy it and find it useful, why would others attempt to limit them by calling it "an unfortunate amount of preoccupation"?
How would having a few people care about the principles of unschooling be unfortunate for anyone?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I want to discuss it a bit�not with particulars of who wrote it, and please don't be naming any names in the discussion. Just the ideas, please.
-=-There is an unfortunate amount of preoccupation in some parts of the homeschooling community about the meaning of the term "radical unschooling," and its related rules and principles. -=-
"Unfortunate" in what way?
Who could be harmed by the voluntary discussion of unschooling? No one is forced to care about the meanings of terms.
Then people discuss something because they enjoy it and find it useful, why would others attempt to limit them by calling it "an unfortunate amount of preoccupation"?
How would having a few people care about the principles of unschooling be unfortunate for anyone?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cathsarwood
My interpretation is that people get upset about this because they don't understand the reasons for trying to define and clarify the principles of unschooling.
Personally I find it really useful to read the discussions of what unschooling is or isn't. Without being clear about what it is, how can anyone know whether they're doing it well, or at all?
I think the ones who get upset believe that the experienced unschoolers are "cliquey" or "fundamentalist" and try to exclude people. When they hear Sandra say that X is good for unschooling and Y is detrimental, what they hear is "anyone who has ever done/said/thought Y is a BAD PERSON and NOT ALLOWED IN OUR GANG".
Catherine Woodward
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Personally I find it really useful to read the discussions of what unschooling is or isn't. Without being clear about what it is, how can anyone know whether they're doing it well, or at all?
I think the ones who get upset believe that the experienced unschoolers are "cliquey" or "fundamentalist" and try to exclude people. When they hear Sandra say that X is good for unschooling and Y is detrimental, what they hear is "anyone who has ever done/said/thought Y is a BAD PERSON and NOT ALLOWED IN OUR GANG".
Catherine Woodward
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Who could be harmed by the voluntary discussion of unschooling? No one is forced to care about the meanings of terms.
>
> Then people discuss something because they enjoy it and find it useful, why would others attempt to limit them by calling it "an unfortunate amount of preoccupation"?
>
>
> How would having a few people care about the principles of unschooling be unfortunate for anyone?
>
>
> Sandra
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think the ones who get upset believe that the experienced unschoolers are "cliquey" or "fundamentalist" and try to exclude people. When they hear Sandra say that X is good for unschooling and Y is detrimental, what they hear is "anyone who has ever done/said/thought Y is a BAD PERSON and NOT ALLOWED IN OUR GANG".-=-
So perhaps those who get upset quickly are seeking a sense of belonging or acceptance, rather than information or ideas?
That's a good clue. Thanks.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
So perhaps those who get upset quickly are seeking a sense of belonging or acceptance, rather than information or ideas?
That's a good clue. Thanks.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
D. Regan
> -=-There is an unfortunate amount of preoccupation in some parts of the homeschooling community about the meaning of the term "radical unschooling," and its related rules and principles. -=-One reason could be if the person liked to be able to talk as though knowledgeable and authoritative about unschooling, but didn't care too much about accuracy or the truth about the details.
>
> "Unfortunate" in what way?
>
> Who could be harmed by the voluntary discussion of unschooling? No one is forced to care about the meanings of terms.
>
> Then people discuss something because they enjoy it and find it useful, why would others attempt to limit them by calling it "an unfortunate amount of preoccupation"?
>
I don't know who wrote it, but I see parallels to goings-on where I live. It seems to me that some people care more about calling themselves unschoolers and impressing others with their anti-establishment views, than about children having awesome lives. It's uncomfortable to those people, to see others caring about getting to the heart of what helps and hinders children. It's a lot easier if accuracy and truth don't matter, or at least aren't brought up.
I have also found that those people often refer to the people who do care about getting to the heart of what works, as being obsessed with rules or some such.
"..."radical unschooling," and its related rules..." was mentioned in the quote. I think "rules" here is used in a pejorative sense. It seems to me that the true objection is to clarity about what works rather than about rules, because there are no unschooling "rules".
What works, requires something from them that they're unwilling to bring - presence, humility, compassion, kindness... In order to feel better about doing what feels comfortable for them while calling it unschooling, they frequently refer to the care required for unschooling to work, as "rules". They seem to find comfort and confidence in people agreeing with them, rather than in knowledge.
Some people know how to make really awesome cakes. They may get together with other passionate cake-makers. They can share what they know about it, all the little things that come together to make the difference between just a cake and a great cake. They will be building a body of knowledge full of gems about cake-making. They are not making rules about how to make a great cake - they are sharing what works. It's information - not rules. To call it 'rules' is a put-down used by those who don't care to take any extra effort.
Debbie
Meredith
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Not too long ago I had a mom write to me on facebook, wondering if I had a group or list of my own because she wasn't finding the Radical Unschooling Info group on facebook helpful. I asked a few questions to try and get a sense of why that was - it could have been that facebook itself was the problem, or personalities rubbing her wrong and I didn't want to send her someplace just at random. Turns out she didn't like the "analytical" discussion style, didn't want people questioning her when she said this or that about her kids (I'm being vague, I don't want to give away who she); she wanted support and acceptance and... and it really seemed like she wanted someone to understand her from Her point of view. She didn't like it at all when she'd write something and I'd try to find a way to relate to her from my own point of view. That was interesting. It has me wondering if a lot of the "oh, I So understand where you're coming from and you just have to follow your intuition and do what works best for your family" sort of mommy-talk is a way for people to have the illusion that they're understood in the way they want to be understood - their way, not someone else's way.
---Meredith
> So perhaps those who get upset quickly are seeking a sense of belonging or acceptance, rather than information or ideas?*********
Not too long ago I had a mom write to me on facebook, wondering if I had a group or list of my own because she wasn't finding the Radical Unschooling Info group on facebook helpful. I asked a few questions to try and get a sense of why that was - it could have been that facebook itself was the problem, or personalities rubbing her wrong and I didn't want to send her someplace just at random. Turns out she didn't like the "analytical" discussion style, didn't want people questioning her when she said this or that about her kids (I'm being vague, I don't want to give away who she); she wanted support and acceptance and... and it really seemed like she wanted someone to understand her from Her point of view. She didn't like it at all when she'd write something and I'd try to find a way to relate to her from my own point of view. That was interesting. It has me wondering if a lot of the "oh, I So understand where you're coming from and you just have to follow your intuition and do what works best for your family" sort of mommy-talk is a way for people to have the illusion that they're understood in the way they want to be understood - their way, not someone else's way.
---Meredith
Tam
==So perhaps those who get upset quickly are seeking a sense of belonging or acceptance, rather than information or ideas?==
I think that's a big part of it. I see the complaint a huge amount at the moment among UK home educators, usually worded along the lines of, "I apparently don't fit," "I'm not allowed to be an unschooler"
They're looking at it as something to be, rather than principles to work from. The people who I see it from do actually want ideas, but in a more general sense of ideas of things to do and ways to be, rather than ideas on how to work with the principles of unschooling.
Ironically, the other big elements to these conversations tends to be, "I never liked labels anyway," when in actual fact it seems that they did indeed want 'unschooler' as a label, as they had no interest in the principles if they didn't encompass everything they already did.
Tam
Sent from my iPhone
I think that's a big part of it. I see the complaint a huge amount at the moment among UK home educators, usually worded along the lines of, "I apparently don't fit," "I'm not allowed to be an unschooler"
They're looking at it as something to be, rather than principles to work from. The people who I see it from do actually want ideas, but in a more general sense of ideas of things to do and ways to be, rather than ideas on how to work with the principles of unschooling.
Ironically, the other big elements to these conversations tends to be, "I never liked labels anyway," when in actual fact it seems that they did indeed want 'unschooler' as a label, as they had no interest in the principles if they didn't encompass everything they already did.
Tam
Sent from my iPhone
Meredith
"cathsarwood" <cswoodward@...> wrote:
There are definitely people who want all unschooling discussions to be "inclusive" and "supportive" in a particular way, and think there's something fundamentally wrong with a discussion group with a narrower focus. I've been told that directly several times, sometimes by older home/unschoolers nostalgic about the "good old days" when all homeschoolers got along and their weren't any of these divisions ;)
Others seem to see "learning about unschooling" as a kind of one-size-fits-all proposition - the same way public schools are expected to serve the widest possible range of students. In that sense it's a kind of deschooling issue - people are thinking about education and what it should be rather than their own needs and interests where learning is concerned.
On top of that, some people want to be... elders or wise women or teachers or gurus - or just plain helpful. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but they post the sort of comments which in other groups gets them thanks and praise, and here they don't get that. They don't get what they want from the group and rather than deciding they're "in the wrong place" decide the group is picking on them.
---Meredith
>> I think the ones who get upset believe that the experienced unschoolers are "cliquey" or "fundamentalist" and try to exclude people.*************
There are definitely people who want all unschooling discussions to be "inclusive" and "supportive" in a particular way, and think there's something fundamentally wrong with a discussion group with a narrower focus. I've been told that directly several times, sometimes by older home/unschoolers nostalgic about the "good old days" when all homeschoolers got along and their weren't any of these divisions ;)
Others seem to see "learning about unschooling" as a kind of one-size-fits-all proposition - the same way public schools are expected to serve the widest possible range of students. In that sense it's a kind of deschooling issue - people are thinking about education and what it should be rather than their own needs and interests where learning is concerned.
>>When they hear Sandra say that X is good for unschooling and Y is detrimental, what they hear is "anyone who has ever done/said/thought Y is a BAD PERSON and NOT ALLOWED IN OUR GANG".***************
On top of that, some people want to be... elders or wise women or teachers or gurus - or just plain helpful. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but they post the sort of comments which in other groups gets them thanks and praise, and here they don't get that. They don't get what they want from the group and rather than deciding they're "in the wrong place" decide the group is picking on them.
---Meredith
chris ester
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 12:55 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
they are "good", "right", or at least not "wrong".
Religion often seems to bring about the same need for validation.
Insecure people usually have difficulty with criticism (I mean the
constructive, sharing of ideas kind of criticism) because they have a need
to be validated.
My husband has told me that he thinks that people become upset with honest
critique because of an intellectual laziness; that most people do not want
to think about about they are doing or how they are doing it and the ideas
and principles behind their choices.
Chris
> **It usually seems to me that people are actually looking for validation that
> >>>>So perhaps those who get upset quickly are seeking a sense of
> belonging or acceptance, rather than information or ideas?
>
>
> That's a good clue. Thanks.
>
>
> Sandra<<<<<<
>
they are "good", "right", or at least not "wrong".
Religion often seems to bring about the same need for validation.
Insecure people usually have difficulty with criticism (I mean the
constructive, sharing of ideas kind of criticism) because they have a need
to be validated.
My husband has told me that he thinks that people become upset with honest
critique because of an intellectual laziness; that most people do not want
to think about about they are doing or how they are doing it and the ideas
and principles behind their choices.
Chris
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
On top of that, some people want to be... elders or wise women or teachers or gurus - or just plain helpful. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but they post the sort of comments which in other groups gets them thanks and praise, and here they don't get that. They don't get what they want from the group and rather than deciding they're "in the wrong place" decide the group is picking on them. -=-=-=-=-==-=-
-=-=-=-=-
Yes and on top of that there are people who profit from selling unschooling in some way. The bigger the target audience, the bigger the profit!!
Alex Polikowksy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen
>>>>> Who could be harmed by the voluntary discussion of unschooling? No one is forced to care about the meanings of terms.<<<<<I think serious, in depth discussions on what makes unschooling more successful challenges some people's (unfortunate) idea of unschooling being about freedom. Many people seem to want to use unschooling as a tool to challenge the establishment, and to rebel against a lifetime of real and/or perceived enforced contraints. They seem to see unschooling as an opportunity to finally hold on to something, define it for themselves, and claim it as their own.
But, if the goal of unschooling is to help our children learn to be contributing, successful, and hopefully happy members of our existing society, then there are definitely better ways in which we, as parents, can help our children potentially achieve this. It means, however, that we need to be willing to listen to those who have gone before us, who have a few/many stories, ideas, and clarifications worth sharing. It also means we need to walk away from the ideas of unschooling as freedom, of unschooling as rebellion, of unschooling as asserting our uniqueness and individualism.
I think it was Issac Newton who said that his own success in furthering the collective understanding in physics and math came from standing on the shoulders of giants. In my opinion, people that reject discussions on what defines and makes unschooling more successful, not only harm themselves, but they also risk lessening the foundation upon which an even greater understanding of unschooling can be built.
Karen.
fishbeeandsnail
In any community there will be those for whom the labels are more important than the ideas. Those who treat any theory or philosophy as a check list, those who cull the buzz words and never get as far as engaging with the ideas. For some, analysis and discussion exist only to self sooth with onanistic check box one-upmanship.
In some discussions, of any subject, rules and principles are rigid, prescriptive and thoughtless and the definition of a term is more important than the ideas it is supposed to embody. Engaging with other people and sharing ideas on common beliefs shouldn't be competitive, but sometimes it is.
However, if the quoted speaker was trying to express any of that they expressed themselves very poorly.
And just to be clear, I have seen none of the above on this list.
In some discussions, of any subject, rules and principles are rigid, prescriptive and thoughtless and the definition of a term is more important than the ideas it is supposed to embody. Engaging with other people and sharing ideas on common beliefs shouldn't be competitive, but sometimes it is.
However, if the quoted speaker was trying to express any of that they expressed themselves very poorly.
And just to be clear, I have seen none of the above on this list.
Marina DeLuca-Howard
Some people come to unschooling from La Leche League. LL prides itself on
the art of "not giving advice" and supporting any "breastfeeding" is good
stances.
Unschoolers tend not to mince words. Enrich your child's life, protect
your relationship with the co-parent, problem solve outside the box and
constant reminder to partner with your loved ones, despite what they are
doing to "upset" your plans/visions or make life difficult. With the
popularity of philosophies like non-violent communication and
non-nonjudgmental( IE non-discernment in some case) approaches to
situations people flinch when criticised.
"Self-empathy" is a phrase that gets tossed about and, really as my partner
puts, it its easy to self-empathise: we can all be selfish. But thinking
about others first is hard--that's why marketers go after people who want
their lives better and who are uncomfortable or struggling to find
"happiness" or "beauty" :)
Accepting your grown child's choice of sexual partner, nurturing their
interests(as long as no law is broken), and giving them unconditional love
is hard. Working with your partner to create a "nest" is hard. The natural
inclination is to ask "When is it my turn to be right?". People seek and
want validation, sympathy.
Having someone say if you are more worried about being right than other
people in your life living together happily unschooling is not going to
work for you. If you need to fill your own cup before others cups this
won't work for you. We keep hearing" put your own oxygen mask on first",
but the truth is if its an emergency situation and you need to look after
getting oxygen, you should re-think your decision to unschool!
The question to ask is: How do my needs fit into the family needs? My
health (getting first aid for a deep cut with a chef's knife) over my
child's trip to the candy store. But trust and honouring my family over
the "I am tired and need some spa time because mothers are overworked and
the happiness, wellbeing of my family aren't enough job satisfaction"
mantra that gets so much airplay these days doesn't play well with
unschoolers and doesn't resonate in unschooling circles. People will offer
advice to make you feel better and accepting that unschooling is hard and
requires stepping outside the box, not advice on meeting your needs to be a
hipster mom.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the art of "not giving advice" and supporting any "breastfeeding" is good
stances.
Unschoolers tend not to mince words. Enrich your child's life, protect
your relationship with the co-parent, problem solve outside the box and
constant reminder to partner with your loved ones, despite what they are
doing to "upset" your plans/visions or make life difficult. With the
popularity of philosophies like non-violent communication and
non-nonjudgmental( IE non-discernment in some case) approaches to
situations people flinch when criticised.
"Self-empathy" is a phrase that gets tossed about and, really as my partner
puts, it its easy to self-empathise: we can all be selfish. But thinking
about others first is hard--that's why marketers go after people who want
their lives better and who are uncomfortable or struggling to find
"happiness" or "beauty" :)
Accepting your grown child's choice of sexual partner, nurturing their
interests(as long as no law is broken), and giving them unconditional love
is hard. Working with your partner to create a "nest" is hard. The natural
inclination is to ask "When is it my turn to be right?". People seek and
want validation, sympathy.
Having someone say if you are more worried about being right than other
people in your life living together happily unschooling is not going to
work for you. If you need to fill your own cup before others cups this
won't work for you. We keep hearing" put your own oxygen mask on first",
but the truth is if its an emergency situation and you need to look after
getting oxygen, you should re-think your decision to unschool!
The question to ask is: How do my needs fit into the family needs? My
health (getting first aid for a deep cut with a chef's knife) over my
child's trip to the candy store. But trust and honouring my family over
the "I am tired and need some spa time because mothers are overworked and
the happiness, wellbeing of my family aren't enough job satisfaction"
mantra that gets so much airplay these days doesn't play well with
unschoolers and doesn't resonate in unschooling circles. People will offer
advice to make you feel better and accepting that unschooling is hard and
requires stepping outside the box, not advice on meeting your needs to be a
hipster mom.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Some people come to unschooling from La Leche League.-=-
I did, nearly directly. The other homeschooling families I knew (two unschooling, two school-at-home) when Kirby was four were all from La Leche League, and were in a babysitting co-op with me.
-=- LL prides itself on the art of "not giving advice" and supporting any "breastfeeding" is good stances.-=-
You're put "not giving advice" in quotes, and that must have a hidden meaning.
There are people here who are, or who have been recently, LLLeaders. I was involved from 1986 to 1992 or so. That's about a lifetime ago (my now-grown children's lifetimes thusfar, anyway). It seemed to me to be nothing BUT advice, and if not "here's what to do," it was "here is the library," and that library was only books from a list of books it was difficult to break into. Any book not actually published by La Leche League was *very* carefully vetted, and any book not on that list was not to be recommended, and certainly not to be owned and loaned by a group.
There were opinions and suggestions that went against LLL's set of truths, too. Because I wasn't a leader, sometimes I would say one of those things, and the leader would say "Ah, but La Leche League believes..." and then state the catechismal answer. Afterwards I'd get a "Good idea; thanks" on the side from the leader who wasn't allowed to say other than the official (now I hear is not reallys supposed to be) advice.
That may no longer be true. Either way is fine with me. :-)
But as to any breastfeeding being good, I did hear after I was gone that they had decided to support pumping and bottle feeding when moms needed to work fulltime, whereas there was a time when they said that wasn't going to work long term and the bonding could be lost.
I'm sure no matter what era of the history of the group we were to look at, they would still be pretty clear that there were some things that were NOT breastfeeding, that they were not designed to support.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I did, nearly directly. The other homeschooling families I knew (two unschooling, two school-at-home) when Kirby was four were all from La Leche League, and were in a babysitting co-op with me.
-=- LL prides itself on the art of "not giving advice" and supporting any "breastfeeding" is good stances.-=-
You're put "not giving advice" in quotes, and that must have a hidden meaning.
There are people here who are, or who have been recently, LLLeaders. I was involved from 1986 to 1992 or so. That's about a lifetime ago (my now-grown children's lifetimes thusfar, anyway). It seemed to me to be nothing BUT advice, and if not "here's what to do," it was "here is the library," and that library was only books from a list of books it was difficult to break into. Any book not actually published by La Leche League was *very* carefully vetted, and any book not on that list was not to be recommended, and certainly not to be owned and loaned by a group.
There were opinions and suggestions that went against LLL's set of truths, too. Because I wasn't a leader, sometimes I would say one of those things, and the leader would say "Ah, but La Leche League believes..." and then state the catechismal answer. Afterwards I'd get a "Good idea; thanks" on the side from the leader who wasn't allowed to say other than the official (now I hear is not reallys supposed to be) advice.
That may no longer be true. Either way is fine with me. :-)
But as to any breastfeeding being good, I did hear after I was gone that they had decided to support pumping and bottle feeding when moms needed to work fulltime, whereas there was a time when they said that wasn't going to work long term and the bonding could be lost.
I'm sure no matter what era of the history of the group we were to look at, they would still be pretty clear that there were some things that were NOT breastfeeding, that they were not designed to support.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
Sandra wrote,
-=- LL prides itself on the art of "not giving advice" and supporting any
"breastfeeding" is good stances.-=-
You're put "not giving advice" in quotes, and that must have a hidden
meaning.
Well, yes. I was a La Leche League leader and part of my training was in
the art of telling people what to do, by letting them come to the correct
conclusions for themselves. I remember I had trouble with this though
because I was being told to manipulate people.
IE I felt dishonest telling a mother who was pregnant and going to deliver
and planning a two week Mexican holiday some vague answers. She planned on
expressing her milk and sending it via courier. I remember thinking this
was silly, unworkable and wanting to ask "why" she was not bringing the
baby. Instead I gave her information and suggested sources. As the mother
of three from my experience, from books, and from anything I had ever
understood about having a baby, let alone breastfeeding taking a vacation
without the newborn seemed the most ridiculous thing. Even if you aren't
planning to breastfeed who leaves a week or two postpartum? Who leaves a
one or two week baby to go on vacation with her husband? But I was able to
follow the La Leche Code and make bland comments--I told her about nipple
confusion, plugged ducts and the logistics of getting milk in cold storage
and shipped back to Canada. I did venture to ask "have you considered
bringing a nanny and taking the baby" so you can avoid the messiness of
pumping milk and sending it home. I did mention the caregiver would
probably need to supplement with formula, which she was concerned about.
We actually had leaders meetings where I brought this particular case
up...but the consensus was you can only answer questions and give out
information and try to be non-judgemental. Yes, mention engorgement,
bonding, nipple confusion, supplementing, and the unwieldy plan of shipping
milk back.
Whenever, I ran into trouble I would adjourn the meeting though and then it
stopped being a La Leche Meeting and was then a free meeting. We were told
to spout, "La Leche believes" but not to contradict nurses, midwifes,
doctors, or professionals although we could recommend those books you
mentioned in the vetted library written by professionals who did just that
:)
There were "breastfeeding mothers" who showed up at meeting who were using
assisted nursing with taping tubes to their bodies and using formula.
There were adoptive mothers who really wanted to breastfeed but didn't
produce milk.
So, when people hit unschooling they find it jarring that only unschooling
is considered unschooling :) IE you have a child at home of school age and
partner with them to build a safe nest for them in a family home to have a
happy life and to follow their natural inclinations which lead to learning
and acquiring skills along the way which lead to independence one day.
Marina
--
When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human
misery rather than avenge it? Eleanor Roosevelt
*Nemo risum praebuit, qui ex se coepit* - Nobody is laughed at, who laughs
at himself. (Seneca)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=- LL prides itself on the art of "not giving advice" and supporting any
"breastfeeding" is good stances.-=-
You're put "not giving advice" in quotes, and that must have a hidden
meaning.
Well, yes. I was a La Leche League leader and part of my training was in
the art of telling people what to do, by letting them come to the correct
conclusions for themselves. I remember I had trouble with this though
because I was being told to manipulate people.
IE I felt dishonest telling a mother who was pregnant and going to deliver
and planning a two week Mexican holiday some vague answers. She planned on
expressing her milk and sending it via courier. I remember thinking this
was silly, unworkable and wanting to ask "why" she was not bringing the
baby. Instead I gave her information and suggested sources. As the mother
of three from my experience, from books, and from anything I had ever
understood about having a baby, let alone breastfeeding taking a vacation
without the newborn seemed the most ridiculous thing. Even if you aren't
planning to breastfeed who leaves a week or two postpartum? Who leaves a
one or two week baby to go on vacation with her husband? But I was able to
follow the La Leche Code and make bland comments--I told her about nipple
confusion, plugged ducts and the logistics of getting milk in cold storage
and shipped back to Canada. I did venture to ask "have you considered
bringing a nanny and taking the baby" so you can avoid the messiness of
pumping milk and sending it home. I did mention the caregiver would
probably need to supplement with formula, which she was concerned about.
We actually had leaders meetings where I brought this particular case
up...but the consensus was you can only answer questions and give out
information and try to be non-judgemental. Yes, mention engorgement,
bonding, nipple confusion, supplementing, and the unwieldy plan of shipping
milk back.
Whenever, I ran into trouble I would adjourn the meeting though and then it
stopped being a La Leche Meeting and was then a free meeting. We were told
to spout, "La Leche believes" but not to contradict nurses, midwifes,
doctors, or professionals although we could recommend those books you
mentioned in the vetted library written by professionals who did just that
:)
There were "breastfeeding mothers" who showed up at meeting who were using
assisted nursing with taping tubes to their bodies and using formula.
There were adoptive mothers who really wanted to breastfeed but didn't
produce milk.
So, when people hit unschooling they find it jarring that only unschooling
is considered unschooling :) IE you have a child at home of school age and
partner with them to build a safe nest for them in a family home to have a
happy life and to follow their natural inclinations which lead to learning
and acquiring skills along the way which lead to independence one day.
Marina
--
When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human
misery rather than avenge it? Eleanor Roosevelt
*Nemo risum praebuit, qui ex se coepit* - Nobody is laughed at, who laughs
at himself. (Seneca)
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Rippy and Graham Dusseldorp
-=- Who could be harmed by the voluntary discussion of unschooling? -=-
-=- How would having a few people care about the principles of unschooling be unfortunate for anyone? -=-
I think there are some moms that beat themselves up for not being present/attentive/kind/fun/generous/calm enough and feel disappointed in themselves or maybe even like they have failed. Reading on a list like this might be difficult and draining for them.
Maybe they don't have the ability to "read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch." Maybe they have super high expectations for themselves and are comparing themselves to an imagined perfect unschooling mom who seems to have it all together all the time.
Maybe they reach too far, too fast and aren't able to gracefully pick themselves up when it doesn't work out for them. Perhaps it makes them feel extra vulnerable and sensitive.
Maybe they think everyone is like this and needs to be rescued from the continual stretching and growth that a list like Always Learning encourages you to do.
But I don't think that is true for everyone. For me the list is a source of inspiration. When I hit a roadblock, I don't get in a bad mood and think I'm a terrible person. I'm pretty lighthearted about it. I pick myself up and try to do better the next time.
I don't really look to other mothers for validation on how I'm doing as a parent. I look to my children and my husband. If they are generally happy, relaxed, comfortable and engaged, I feel pretty good about how I'm doing. If they are often stressed, frustrated, uneasy and distant, it wouldn't matter if every mother in the world voted me to be the best mom in the universe. I would still know that I was letting down my own family.
That is one of ways the unschooling discussions on this list help me. If I see signs of frustration or stress or uneasiness in my family, there are alarm bells going off inside me telling me I need to be kinder, pay extra close attention, have more ideas, and offer more options.
Rippy
(Gianluca 8, Gisele 6)
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-=- How would having a few people care about the principles of unschooling be unfortunate for anyone? -=-
I think there are some moms that beat themselves up for not being present/attentive/kind/fun/generous/calm enough and feel disappointed in themselves or maybe even like they have failed. Reading on a list like this might be difficult and draining for them.
Maybe they don't have the ability to "read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch." Maybe they have super high expectations for themselves and are comparing themselves to an imagined perfect unschooling mom who seems to have it all together all the time.
Maybe they reach too far, too fast and aren't able to gracefully pick themselves up when it doesn't work out for them. Perhaps it makes them feel extra vulnerable and sensitive.
Maybe they think everyone is like this and needs to be rescued from the continual stretching and growth that a list like Always Learning encourages you to do.
But I don't think that is true for everyone. For me the list is a source of inspiration. When I hit a roadblock, I don't get in a bad mood and think I'm a terrible person. I'm pretty lighthearted about it. I pick myself up and try to do better the next time.
I don't really look to other mothers for validation on how I'm doing as a parent. I look to my children and my husband. If they are generally happy, relaxed, comfortable and engaged, I feel pretty good about how I'm doing. If they are often stressed, frustrated, uneasy and distant, it wouldn't matter if every mother in the world voted me to be the best mom in the universe. I would still know that I was letting down my own family.
That is one of ways the unschooling discussions on this list help me. If I see signs of frustration or stress or uneasiness in my family, there are alarm bells going off inside me telling me I need to be kinder, pay extra close attention, have more ideas, and offer more options.
Rippy
(Gianluca 8, Gisele 6)
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Sandra Dodd
-=-you have a child at home of school age and
partner with them to build a safe nest for them in a family home to have a
happy life and to follow their natural inclinations which lead to learning
and acquiring skills along the way which lead to independence one day.-=-
Oooh! A nice summary! :-)
So strapping a curriculum on and feeding it through a tube on the sly isn't quite as good?
I'm asking facetiously because in a couple of recent conversations I've found that some people have avoided "subject matter" because it might be too-schoolish to discuss it, but I didn't, when my kids were little. If I could easily work it into a conversation and I was aware for some reason that they didn't know it, and I was pretty sure that someday they might want to, if something similar came up, I would mention it. I still do that. I do that with my husband and my friends, sometimes.
There are things that come up naturally in everyday life that are also discussed and presented at school. How voting works. Quotation marks. Metallic elements and alloys. The difference between an amphibian and a reptile. If it's right there and can be brought up conversationally, I don't stop myself with the thought that the information is also on the school curriculum.
So about whether a La Leche League leader is being manipulative by asking questions that will lead a mom to a thoughtful conclusion�it doesn't seem so to me. I'm guessing perhaps that LLL is tring to cover their butts, or perhaps to make more money by having more members feel welcome. So if it's a kind of manipulation, it still doesn't seem evil or cruel to me.
In a discussion such as this one, though, we have no reason to dodge or demur. It's not about making money. There are no memberships. We're not in danger of giving advice that pediatricians would dispute. Well, maybe we are, but not about babies. :-)
Sandra
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partner with them to build a safe nest for them in a family home to have a
happy life and to follow their natural inclinations which lead to learning
and acquiring skills along the way which lead to independence one day.-=-
Oooh! A nice summary! :-)
So strapping a curriculum on and feeding it through a tube on the sly isn't quite as good?
I'm asking facetiously because in a couple of recent conversations I've found that some people have avoided "subject matter" because it might be too-schoolish to discuss it, but I didn't, when my kids were little. If I could easily work it into a conversation and I was aware for some reason that they didn't know it, and I was pretty sure that someday they might want to, if something similar came up, I would mention it. I still do that. I do that with my husband and my friends, sometimes.
There are things that come up naturally in everyday life that are also discussed and presented at school. How voting works. Quotation marks. Metallic elements and alloys. The difference between an amphibian and a reptile. If it's right there and can be brought up conversationally, I don't stop myself with the thought that the information is also on the school curriculum.
So about whether a La Leche League leader is being manipulative by asking questions that will lead a mom to a thoughtful conclusion�it doesn't seem so to me. I'm guessing perhaps that LLL is tring to cover their butts, or perhaps to make more money by having more members feel welcome. So if it's a kind of manipulation, it still doesn't seem evil or cruel to me.
In a discussion such as this one, though, we have no reason to dodge or demur. It's not about making money. There are no memberships. We're not in danger of giving advice that pediatricians would dispute. Well, maybe we are, but not about babies. :-)
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=-I was a La Leche League leader and part of my training was in
the art of telling people what to do, by letting them come to the correct
conclusions for themselves. I remember I had trouble with this though
because I was being told to manipulate people.-=-
That's the Socratic Method.
People (educators) use that term to discuss ANY Q&A discussions, as though all conclusions are equally valid, but that was not the intention of Socrates when he asked particular kinds of questions of his students, in various situations.
(Sorry.... lost this for a while and so it wasn't with the rest of the response. :-)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the art of telling people what to do, by letting them come to the correct
conclusions for themselves. I remember I had trouble with this though
because I was being told to manipulate people.-=-
That's the Socratic Method.
People (educators) use that term to discuss ANY Q&A discussions, as though all conclusions are equally valid, but that was not the intention of Socrates when he asked particular kinds of questions of his students, in various situations.
(Sorry.... lost this for a while and so it wasn't with the rest of the response. :-)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
That's the Socratic Method.
People (educators) use that term to discuss ANY Q&A discussions, as though
all conclusions are equally valid, but that was not the intention of
Socrates when he asked particular kinds of questions of his students, in
various situations.
I do this all the time in my family, but its more "conversation". There
are observable facts like the sky is blue, that we all see. The idea that
it could be another colour and under what conditions are all questions to
answer. Except I think with my children its varied as to who gets to be
Socrates :)
Sometimes kids ask deep deep questions and finding answers to questions is
learning, for all of us.
But there is nothing wrong for instance giving kids good tools-- its not
math through "fake quiz questions" aimed at kids. Its problem solving in
real life if we should go home by 4pm because we are making a pie to go
with dinner. The lasagna will take 30 minutes to put together, then has to
bake...so how many things are we making before the cake...how long do we
have...Can we eat the cake first? Why is the oven at 350? Those are all
questions and the answers have real life outcomes: cakes burn, hungry
people end up eating cheese and crackers if dinner isn't ready by a certain
time. Then we ask do we even want dinner, and can we eat a quick breakfast
as dinner so we can stay out longer. Those are all about values, practices,
nutrition...
Things naturally come up while living that provide time to stop and figure
out values, practices and culturally important info. My partner loved
explaining how to hold a steak knife, where a napkin goes, how to eat in
public, using formal "manners". The kids loved the information. When he
tried explaining the "correct" or socially acceptable way to other kids
moms would sometimes get annoyed that John was telling their kids the
correct way to eat--but he saw it as giving them tools to use in public and
he only did it when kids expressed interest :)
What are good topics of info with strangers, what will make them wince, how
do we move along in the real world...just like elections(local or federal
happen occasionally) or a scandal with a politician hits the paper. There
are so many times to discuss democracy--not just as a passing curriculum
question where kids memorise the answer and move on, never to fully explore.
Marina
When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human
misery rather than avenge it? Eleanor Roosevelt
*Nemo risum praebuit, qui ex se coepit* - Nobody is laughed at, who laughs
at himself. (Seneca)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
People (educators) use that term to discuss ANY Q&A discussions, as though
all conclusions are equally valid, but that was not the intention of
Socrates when he asked particular kinds of questions of his students, in
various situations.
I do this all the time in my family, but its more "conversation". There
are observable facts like the sky is blue, that we all see. The idea that
it could be another colour and under what conditions are all questions to
answer. Except I think with my children its varied as to who gets to be
Socrates :)
Sometimes kids ask deep deep questions and finding answers to questions is
learning, for all of us.
But there is nothing wrong for instance giving kids good tools-- its not
math through "fake quiz questions" aimed at kids. Its problem solving in
real life if we should go home by 4pm because we are making a pie to go
with dinner. The lasagna will take 30 minutes to put together, then has to
bake...so how many things are we making before the cake...how long do we
have...Can we eat the cake first? Why is the oven at 350? Those are all
questions and the answers have real life outcomes: cakes burn, hungry
people end up eating cheese and crackers if dinner isn't ready by a certain
time. Then we ask do we even want dinner, and can we eat a quick breakfast
as dinner so we can stay out longer. Those are all about values, practices,
nutrition...
Things naturally come up while living that provide time to stop and figure
out values, practices and culturally important info. My partner loved
explaining how to hold a steak knife, where a napkin goes, how to eat in
public, using formal "manners". The kids loved the information. When he
tried explaining the "correct" or socially acceptable way to other kids
moms would sometimes get annoyed that John was telling their kids the
correct way to eat--but he saw it as giving them tools to use in public and
he only did it when kids expressed interest :)
What are good topics of info with strangers, what will make them wince, how
do we move along in the real world...just like elections(local or federal
happen occasionally) or a scandal with a politician hits the paper. There
are so many times to discuss democracy--not just as a passing curriculum
question where kids memorise the answer and move on, never to fully explore.
Marina
>--
>
>
>
When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human
misery rather than avenge it? Eleanor Roosevelt
*Nemo risum praebuit, qui ex se coepit* - Nobody is laughed at, who laughs
at himself. (Seneca)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
<<So about whether a La Leche League leader is being manipulative by asking
questions that will lead a mom to a thoughtful conclusion�it doesn't seem
so to me. I'm guessing perhaps that LLL is tring to cover their butts, or
perhaps to make more money by having more members feel welcome. So if
it's a kind of manipulation, it still doesn't seem evil or cruel to me.>>
Well, I guess for me in some cases a direct question would have been
better. Why do you want to leave a newborn to go on vacation? Can't you
take the baby? that's judgemental, though.
But with my kids I can ask direct questions and give info. We can't solve
problems by hitting because adults go to jail when they hit people they
disagree with...its important to learn not to do that. Give information,
express fear, concern for hurting people, anger.
Most info on *separation from babies* was geared to moms trying to avoid
the separation, but hospitalization was due to illness or emergency of
sorts. So for me the idea seemed crazy that you would be sending milk by
courier, because the underlying issue was why are you having a baby and
then leaving the baby to take a trip to work on your marriage and your tan?
Breastfeeding is part of bonding, I guess. Its not really just about the
"milk".
I guess that works with unschooling...I think at the base its about deep
down human relationships and bonding and how you feel about your
family...you can't call it in :)
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
questions that will lead a mom to a thoughtful conclusion�it doesn't seem
so to me. I'm guessing perhaps that LLL is tring to cover their butts, or
perhaps to make more money by having more members feel welcome. So if
it's a kind of manipulation, it still doesn't seem evil or cruel to me.>>
Well, I guess for me in some cases a direct question would have been
better. Why do you want to leave a newborn to go on vacation? Can't you
take the baby? that's judgemental, though.
But with my kids I can ask direct questions and give info. We can't solve
problems by hitting because adults go to jail when they hit people they
disagree with...its important to learn not to do that. Give information,
express fear, concern for hurting people, anger.
Most info on *separation from babies* was geared to moms trying to avoid
the separation, but hospitalization was due to illness or emergency of
sorts. So for me the idea seemed crazy that you would be sending milk by
courier, because the underlying issue was why are you having a baby and
then leaving the baby to take a trip to work on your marriage and your tan?
Breastfeeding is part of bonding, I guess. Its not really just about the
"milk".
I guess that works with unschooling...I think at the base its about deep
down human relationships and bonding and how you feel about your
family...you can't call it in :)
Marina
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