Grandparents concerned about young kids not reading yet
LydiaK
My parents have expressed concern that my four and five year olds can't read yet, particularly sight words. I would love some resources and ideas for ways I can talk to them about how they are learning to read, but at a different pace than their schooled counterparts. Somehow my parents think not being able to read at 5 is a tragedy.
I am planning to write a blog post about all the ways Nisa and Shaiah are developing an understanding of how words are formed, what they mean, how to decipher them, etc. I would like to include links if anyone has some to reccommend. I am planning to link to Sandra's page about reading and also to an article about Finnish children not being taught to read until they are seven, and their impressive rates of literacy. I would also love some ideas on what I can say when my parents are asking why I am not teaching them to read or teaching them sight words. I want to be honest and respectful, but also impressive and not freaking them out!
Lydia Koltai
I am planning to write a blog post about all the ways Nisa and Shaiah are developing an understanding of how words are formed, what they mean, how to decipher them, etc. I would like to include links if anyone has some to reccommend. I am planning to link to Sandra's page about reading and also to an article about Finnish children not being taught to read until they are seven, and their impressive rates of literacy. I would also love some ideas on what I can say when my parents are asking why I am not teaching them to read or teaching them sight words. I want to be honest and respectful, but also impressive and not freaking them out!
Lydia Koltai
Pam Sorooshian
On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 10:06 AM, LydiaK <princessjasmine05@...>wrote:
think 4 and 5 year olds should be reading.
You might want to avoid sounding so defensive and feeling like you have to
document every little bit of learning your kids are doing that might be
leading toward eventual reading. What if you have kids who read at 10 or
11? It isn't uncommon for unschooled kids to learn at very different ages
than schooled kids. If you start out trying to document their learning,
what are you going to say when they are 7 or 8 or 9 or 10 and still not
reading? It happens.
Instead, maybe point out that their expectations are not realistic. Kids IN
school don't read at 4 or 5. At 4 and 5 kids are typically just barely
learning to hear rhyming words and maybe recognize a few street signs and
pretend they are reading the words on them. If they lean that direction,
they will be showing interest in letters and numbers and might want to copy
or trace their names or other words.
That is typical - but there are kids who are fluently reading at that age
and kids who have no interest in anything to DO with letters and sounds
yet.
Sometime around 6 or 7 kids typically get interested in decoding - meaning
they start to get the idea that letters represent sounds and they start
"sounding out" words.
Again - that's typically around 6 or 7 years old but MANY kids, even kids
in school, aren't doing it at those ages.
Plus - there are some kids who don't learn to read by learning to decode
first. Instead, they seem to memorize (without letter-sound connection) a
very very large number of words and can recognize (read) those words before
they grasp that "sounding out" is even a possibility. You may have a kid
like this.
I just don't know if it is a great idea to feel so obligated to write down
so much detailed documentation of their learning - it might be setting a
precedent that will backfire.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Somehow my parents think not being able to read at 5 is a tragedy.Your parents aren't very knowledgable about reading development if they
think 4 and 5 year olds should be reading.
You might want to avoid sounding so defensive and feeling like you have to
document every little bit of learning your kids are doing that might be
leading toward eventual reading. What if you have kids who read at 10 or
11? It isn't uncommon for unschooled kids to learn at very different ages
than schooled kids. If you start out trying to document their learning,
what are you going to say when they are 7 or 8 or 9 or 10 and still not
reading? It happens.
Instead, maybe point out that their expectations are not realistic. Kids IN
school don't read at 4 or 5. At 4 and 5 kids are typically just barely
learning to hear rhyming words and maybe recognize a few street signs and
pretend they are reading the words on them. If they lean that direction,
they will be showing interest in letters and numbers and might want to copy
or trace their names or other words.
That is typical - but there are kids who are fluently reading at that age
and kids who have no interest in anything to DO with letters and sounds
yet.
Sometime around 6 or 7 kids typically get interested in decoding - meaning
they start to get the idea that letters represent sounds and they start
"sounding out" words.
Again - that's typically around 6 or 7 years old but MANY kids, even kids
in school, aren't doing it at those ages.
Plus - there are some kids who don't learn to read by learning to decode
first. Instead, they seem to memorize (without letter-sound connection) a
very very large number of words and can recognize (read) those words before
they grasp that "sounding out" is even a possibility. You may have a kid
like this.
I just don't know if it is a great idea to feel so obligated to write down
so much detailed documentation of their learning - it might be setting a
precedent that will backfire.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"LydiaK" <princessjasmine05@...> wrote:
Even by the most optimistic modern school standards 5yos are expected to be able to recognize a handful of common words (like Walmart and maybe their own name, but only in one style of handwriting) and are just beginning to learn to "sound out" simple, familiar, single syllable words.
Here's a basic summary of school expectations:
http://kidshealth.org/parent/positive/all_reading/milestones.html#
and a longer description of school goals for reading in the primary grades:
http://readingprograms.org/our-approach/stages-of-reading-development/
Note that kids aren't expected to starting learning to read independently until 2nd grade (7-8) despite two years of education, and aren't expected to read with enough comprehension for it to really matter (that's what they mean by absorption) until 3rd or 4th grade (8-10).
This is a wholly different set of expectations than natural learning. Two good books on the subject of how reading is learned naturally are: Much More than the ABCs by Judith Schickendanz and Literacy Through Play by Gretchen Owocki. Both are about kids learning to read in open classrooms - university lab schools.
But I wouldn't necessarily pass any of that along to your parents if they're worried that a 4yo isn't reading. It might be better to say something like "according to my research they're not behind at all, but thanks for your concern, we're definitely working on it and I'm happy with their progress" and then tell some cute story about how wonderful their grandkids are.
Grandparents, friends and extended family ask about school and homeschool because they don't have any other context for talking about kids any more. On top of that, it's become normal for parents to complain about the dramas of school - who's behind, who's in trouble, why this year's teacher isn't as good as last years... so when mom is the teacher, grandparents (etc) are left floundering a little. They don't know what to say or ask and so with all the best intentions they get it totally wrong and put their feet in their mouths.
So to rescue them from their own gaucherie, feed them stories of what the kids enjoy, what they're doing, what they're excited about, so they can have some context and feel like they're connected with their beloved grandchildren without having to ask about school.
---Meredith
>Somehow my parents think not being able to read at 5 is a tragedy.Good grief, where are they getting that idea? There's a reason first grade doesn't start until age 6 or 7 - it used to be unheard of for kids to even start learning to read before then.
Even by the most optimistic modern school standards 5yos are expected to be able to recognize a handful of common words (like Walmart and maybe their own name, but only in one style of handwriting) and are just beginning to learn to "sound out" simple, familiar, single syllable words.
Here's a basic summary of school expectations:
http://kidshealth.org/parent/positive/all_reading/milestones.html#
and a longer description of school goals for reading in the primary grades:
http://readingprograms.org/our-approach/stages-of-reading-development/
Note that kids aren't expected to starting learning to read independently until 2nd grade (7-8) despite two years of education, and aren't expected to read with enough comprehension for it to really matter (that's what they mean by absorption) until 3rd or 4th grade (8-10).
This is a wholly different set of expectations than natural learning. Two good books on the subject of how reading is learned naturally are: Much More than the ABCs by Judith Schickendanz and Literacy Through Play by Gretchen Owocki. Both are about kids learning to read in open classrooms - university lab schools.
But I wouldn't necessarily pass any of that along to your parents if they're worried that a 4yo isn't reading. It might be better to say something like "according to my research they're not behind at all, but thanks for your concern, we're definitely working on it and I'm happy with their progress" and then tell some cute story about how wonderful their grandkids are.
Grandparents, friends and extended family ask about school and homeschool because they don't have any other context for talking about kids any more. On top of that, it's become normal for parents to complain about the dramas of school - who's behind, who's in trouble, why this year's teacher isn't as good as last years... so when mom is the teacher, grandparents (etc) are left floundering a little. They don't know what to say or ask and so with all the best intentions they get it totally wrong and put their feet in their mouths.
So to rescue them from their own gaucherie, feed them stories of what the kids enjoy, what they're doing, what they're excited about, so they can have some context and feel like they're connected with their beloved grandchildren without having to ask about school.
---Meredith
dapsign
At Logan's 6th birthday last summer, my mother expressed concern about Logan being able to read when I read his birthday card to him. I think she expected him to read it out loud. I said, "he's learning" and changed the subject.
Dina
Dina
Jo Isaac
My son is 7 and doesn't read yet. He's never been to school. But he has a schooled friend who is 6 month older than him, and he's not reading yet either. Very few kids are reading at four and five, and the one's that are didn't learn to read at school - how could they - they've hardly been at school!
This link is quite good at explaining how children learn to read, especially for grandparents i should think (Part 2 is the bit they'd mostly be interested in)...http://www.joyfulnoisedaycare.com/sjohnson2.html
Cheers,Jo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This link is quite good at explaining how children learn to read, especially for grandparents i should think (Part 2 is the bit they'd mostly be interested in)...http://www.joyfulnoisedaycare.com/sjohnson2.html
Cheers,Jo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alex Polikowsky
I would not sent that article to a grandparent!
There are some interesting things in it and it does promote " teaching " reading and writing at a later age and when children are ready but there are several red flags.
What she says about kids that learned to read by sight words is SO NOT true in my experience. My son was reading fluently at 6 ad I know he did it by sight word cataloging. He not only read easily and without effort but he is an amazing speller.
She promotes :
"Extremely limiting screen time (television, videos, and computer games) and eliminating it altogether on school nights, will keep the mind free to do its own picturing and not stress it with violent images and rapid sequences of pictures that the brain can not fully process. Regular rhythms and routines in eating and ..."
And those are just some red flags . Is she cannot see all the learning kids are doing playing games and watching TV I am not sure she really understands how children learn outside of a classroom.
My son learned to read playing Roblox on the computer and my daughter is doing he same with Minecraft and Skype!
Alex Polikowsky
Sent from my iPhone
There are some interesting things in it and it does promote " teaching " reading and writing at a later age and when children are ready but there are several red flags.
What she says about kids that learned to read by sight words is SO NOT true in my experience. My son was reading fluently at 6 ad I know he did it by sight word cataloging. He not only read easily and without effort but he is an amazing speller.
She promotes :
"Extremely limiting screen time (television, videos, and computer games) and eliminating it altogether on school nights, will keep the mind free to do its own picturing and not stress it with violent images and rapid sequences of pictures that the brain can not fully process. Regular rhythms and routines in eating and ..."
And those are just some red flags . Is she cannot see all the learning kids are doing playing games and watching TV I am not sure she really understands how children learn outside of a classroom.
My son learned to read playing Roblox on the computer and my daughter is doing he same with Minecraft and Skype!
Alex Polikowsky
Sent from my iPhone
On May 26, 2013, at 6:24 PM, Jo Isaac <joanneisaac@...> wrote:
> My son is 7 and doesn't read yet. He's never been to school. But he has a schooled friend who is 6 month older than him, and he's not reading yet either. Very few kids are reading at four and five, and the one's that are didn't learn to read at school - how could they - they've hardly been at school!
> This link is quite good at explaining how children learn to read, especially for grandparents i should think (Part 2 is the bit they'd mostly be interested in)...http://www.joyfulnoisedaycare.com/sjohnson2.html
>
> Cheers,Jo
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Megan Valnes
I love this forum and yet I am not an unschooler. I'd like to think I would
be, however, my husband prefers that I work outside the home and our happy
marriage and "schooled" children are the priority. Anyway, my kids that
have been in school (7&9) both began to read in the 1st grade, somewhere
around 6.5 years old. My 2&4 year old are not reading on their own yet but
love being read to. Perhaps remind your parents that literacy starts with
parents reading to children and is not just about kids reciting "sight"
words. Also changing the subject is a good idea. Radical unschooling is new
and subversive to many people, so I don't think it's uncommon to have these
types of issues. Soldier on! Work it if it's working! Keep the faith mama.
be, however, my husband prefers that I work outside the home and our happy
marriage and "schooled" children are the priority. Anyway, my kids that
have been in school (7&9) both began to read in the 1st grade, somewhere
around 6.5 years old. My 2&4 year old are not reading on their own yet but
love being read to. Perhaps remind your parents that literacy starts with
parents reading to children and is not just about kids reciting "sight"
words. Also changing the subject is a good idea. Radical unschooling is new
and subversive to many people, so I don't think it's uncommon to have these
types of issues. Soldier on! Work it if it's working! Keep the faith mama.
On May 26, 2013 4:33 PM, "Jo Isaac" <joanneisaac@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> My son is 7 and doesn't read yet. He's never been to school. But he has a
> schooled friend who is 6 month older than him, and he's not reading yet
> either. Very few kids are reading at four and five, and the one's that are
> didn't learn to read at school - how could they - they've hardly been at
> school!
> This link is quite good at explaining how children learn to read,
> especially for grandparents i should think (Part 2 is the bit they'd mostly
> be interested in)...http://www.joyfulnoisedaycare.com/sjohnson2.html
>
> Cheers,Jo
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen
>>>>>I would like to include links if anyone has some to reccommend.<<<<<I really like this article:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201002/children-teach-themselves-read
I do wish the title referred to children learning to read rather than teaching themselves to read, but I think the article has some good insights that might help the grandparents relax a bit.
Karen.
alma
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
I don't know where the OP lives, but it's different in the UK. Here almost all kids start school at 4, and usually pre-school at 3. And literacy teaching starts straight away.
http://www.keystageplus.co.uk/Reception.pdf
If you scroll down to the literacy section you can see that there are quite high expectations at 4/5, though not full reading.
When mine were that age we used the example of other countries having later starting ages to justify our keeping them out of school. By the time they got a bit older the grandparents could see they were learning soooo much even though they didn't read until late - 10 year old just now reading chapter books, 8 year old not nearly.
I also talked to the grandparents about how reading is so important in schools for delivery of lessons, homework etc whereas at home they could build other skills first and all as they were ready, not to mention there was always someone to read to them. I also remember reading that children who are late readers have better listening skills and by adulthood the early and late readers are indistinguishable in reading ability but the late readers are still better listeners. [Does anyone know a source for that?]
Alison
>-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Good grief, where are they getting that idea? There's a reason first grade doesn't start until age 6 or 7 - it used to be unheard of for kids to even start learning to read before then.
I don't know where the OP lives, but it's different in the UK. Here almost all kids start school at 4, and usually pre-school at 3. And literacy teaching starts straight away.
http://www.keystageplus.co.uk/Reception.pdf
If you scroll down to the literacy section you can see that there are quite high expectations at 4/5, though not full reading.
When mine were that age we used the example of other countries having later starting ages to justify our keeping them out of school. By the time they got a bit older the grandparents could see they were learning soooo much even though they didn't read until late - 10 year old just now reading chapter books, 8 year old not nearly.
I also talked to the grandparents about how reading is so important in schools for delivery of lessons, homework etc whereas at home they could build other skills first and all as they were ready, not to mention there was always someone to read to them. I also remember reading that children who are late readers have better listening skills and by adulthood the early and late readers are indistinguishable in reading ability but the late readers are still better listeners. [Does anyone know a source for that?]
Alison
Pam Sorooshian
On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 1:06 PM, alma <almadoing@...> wrote:
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I don't know where the OP lives, but it's different in the UK. Here almostTeaching is not learning.
> all kids start school at 4, and usually pre-school at 3. And literacy
> teaching starts straight away.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Catherine
In France, schooled children start when they are 7 too. It happens in a
lot of european countries. Though not in England (they start at 4...)
Cath
lot of european countries. Though not in England (they start at 4...)
Cath
alma
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
Indeed - but it spooks people in the UK to see kids NOT appearing to be taught from the age of 4. I think pressure on unschooling families to demonstrate results starts earlier here than elsewhere because of the early school age.
The teaching is not learning thing is important to explain to the OP's parents too. And also, what is called "reading progress" in school may not look anything like actual reading!
Alison
>-=-=-=-=-=
> On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 1:06 PM, alma <almadoing@...> wrote:
>
> > I don't know where the OP lives, but it's different in the UK. Here almost
> > all kids start school at 4, and usually pre-school at 3. And literacy
> > teaching starts straight away.
>
>
>
> Teaching is not learning.
>
> -pam
>
>
Indeed - but it spooks people in the UK to see kids NOT appearing to be taught from the age of 4. I think pressure on unschooling families to demonstrate results starts earlier here than elsewhere because of the early school age.
The teaching is not learning thing is important to explain to the OP's parents too. And also, what is called "reading progress" in school may not look anything like actual reading!
Alison
Mette G.
>>>In France, schooled children start when they are 7 too. It happens in alot of european countries.<<<<
This is not quite the case, sadly. In France, compulsory instruction starts at 6 - but in reality, 98% of children are in pre-school from 3yo. They do start literacy lessons already then (even if not very formal at first) and it definitely counts as school in the public opinion, ie children are considered to be at a huge disadvantage if they don't attend preschool. In some other European countries, school starts later yes - it used to be 7 in Denmark too, but two years ago the age was lowered to 6. Overall, the political climate in Europe is moving towards earlier school age, more testing, more hours, more homework and heavier lessons in reading/maths.
I am commenting this, just to say that unfortunately - there are fewer and fewer places we can point to, as "doing differently".
Mette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"alma" <almadoing@...> wrote:
It's the same in the US - even the list of what they teach is essentially the same. That's part of the fairly recent push for earlier and earlier education. A couple generations ago Kindergarten was preschool Because most kids aren't ready to start reading before age 7.
Sometimes it helps people to be reminded of the fact that "early education" is a new thing - something started to help disadvantaged kids who didn't have the same sorts of resources at home - like books! But then two other phenomena pushed early education into the mainstream: working moms, and the gifted/superbaby concept. On the one hand, people want to think they can make their kids better and smarter and on the other people will accept free public Education where they'll rally against free public Daycare.
results starts earlier here than elsewhere because of the early school age.
*****************
It spooks people in the US, too. One of the reasons "unschooling" young children has become such a popular concept in some circles is that the fight to get kids into "the best preschool" starts when kids are 3... in some places younger as parents prep kids for preschool entrance interviews. But even some of those "unschooling" families are doing it in hopes it will make their kids better and smarter, so they can get into a better Kindergarten.
************
There's a certain irony to trying to teach someone that teaching isn't learning ;)
I found it helped to step back from the idea that I was going to teach my extended family about home education and unschooling and instead look for ways to reassure them that the grandbabies were Fine - bright and interested in the world, and learning lots, and nevermind how that happened. If they wanted to talk educational theory, they could do some research... which they never did.
---Meredith
>> I don't know where the OP lives, but it's different in the UK. Here almost all kids start school at 4, and usually pre-school at 3. And literacy teaching starts straight away.***************
It's the same in the US - even the list of what they teach is essentially the same. That's part of the fairly recent push for earlier and earlier education. A couple generations ago Kindergarten was preschool Because most kids aren't ready to start reading before age 7.
Sometimes it helps people to be reminded of the fact that "early education" is a new thing - something started to help disadvantaged kids who didn't have the same sorts of resources at home - like books! But then two other phenomena pushed early education into the mainstream: working moms, and the gifted/superbaby concept. On the one hand, people want to think they can make their kids better and smarter and on the other people will accept free public Education where they'll rally against free public Daycare.
>>it spooks people in the UK to see kids NOT appearing to be taughtfrom the age of 4. I think pressure on unschooling families to demonstrate
results starts earlier here than elsewhere because of the early school age.
*****************
It spooks people in the US, too. One of the reasons "unschooling" young children has become such a popular concept in some circles is that the fight to get kids into "the best preschool" starts when kids are 3... in some places younger as parents prep kids for preschool entrance interviews. But even some of those "unschooling" families are doing it in hopes it will make their kids better and smarter, so they can get into a better Kindergarten.
>>The teaching is not learning thing is important to explain to the OP's parentstoo.
************
There's a certain irony to trying to teach someone that teaching isn't learning ;)
I found it helped to step back from the idea that I was going to teach my extended family about home education and unschooling and instead look for ways to reassure them that the grandbabies were Fine - bright and interested in the world, and learning lots, and nevermind how that happened. If they wanted to talk educational theory, they could do some research... which they never did.
---Meredith