Concerned about 7 year old not knowing the name of letters
Bea
My seven year old doesn't know the names of all the letters. She can recite the alphabet, she can write her name, but she can't spell her name out loud.
I'm a little bit afraid that people are going to accuse me of educational neglect. It wouldn't worry me too much if she was a more introverted kid, but she's extremely extroverted and goes up to parents at the playground or in museums or wherever we go, and chats with them, and tells them her name, and the other day she said "my name is Linnea, I write it with an L, and then like this" (writing the rest of the letters in the air with her finger because she doesn't know their name.) I could see that the mom she was talking to was surprised that she didn't know her letters. Also, she is 7 but she is tall for her age, and has a lot of adult teeth, so she looks older.
I've read a lot about late readers, but there is less available on kids who don't know their letters, and I'm wondering if it's something I should be concerned about. It's not that I'm worried that she'll never learn the names of letters, I'm sure she will. But in the meantime, how should I handle it outside our home?
Bea
I'm a little bit afraid that people are going to accuse me of educational neglect. It wouldn't worry me too much if she was a more introverted kid, but she's extremely extroverted and goes up to parents at the playground or in museums or wherever we go, and chats with them, and tells them her name, and the other day she said "my name is Linnea, I write it with an L, and then like this" (writing the rest of the letters in the air with her finger because she doesn't know their name.) I could see that the mom she was talking to was surprised that she didn't know her letters. Also, she is 7 but she is tall for her age, and has a lot of adult teeth, so she looks older.
I've read a lot about late readers, but there is less available on kids who don't know their letters, and I'm wondering if it's something I should be concerned about. It's not that I'm worried that she'll never learn the names of letters, I'm sure she will. But in the meantime, how should I handle it outside our home?
Bea
Vicki Dennis
She sounds awesome (I am always in awe of extroverts!). If anyone is so
rude as to criticize just breezily say she doesn't know all the state
capitals yet (if that is true) or how to drive (if that is true!).
Clearly she is getting along just fine and has learned to compensate for
what she doesn't yet have................writing the rest in the air is
marvelous. I wonder if the other mom is able to read air writing yet.
Actually, YOU may not need to say anything. Your daughter may be advanced
enough and enough of an extrovert to deal with external small minds without
being bothered.
It wasn't completely clear to me...............she is able to write all the
letters or just the ones in her name? I am curious whether she can already
spell short words and communicate with writing. In other words can she put
a letter down and ask you to name it? Just my curiosity, not a diagnostic
step.
If it is not clear...........no, you need not be concerned. In my opinion
she is closer to literacy than a child who can recite the alphabet in order
but has no clue what letters are capable of. Or can rattle off how to
spell their name but cannot draw it on paper OR in the air. Did I mention
that I think air writing is an advanced skill?
IF the time should come that other adults express their discomfort about
being around such a delightful child by making accusations toward her or
you, THEN would be the time to explain to your daughter than sometimes
adults have a rigid view of what children should be like and don't know how
to act around anyone who doesn't fit that mold. Often when people are
uncomfortable or even jealous they will lash out.
vicki
P.S.: You might also consider that the mom you referenced wasn't surprised
Linnea did not know how to verbalize letters and may not even have figured
that out. She might have been very surprised that a child would talk to
her like a peer or would expect her to read air writing!
rude as to criticize just breezily say she doesn't know all the state
capitals yet (if that is true) or how to drive (if that is true!).
Clearly she is getting along just fine and has learned to compensate for
what she doesn't yet have................writing the rest in the air is
marvelous. I wonder if the other mom is able to read air writing yet.
Actually, YOU may not need to say anything. Your daughter may be advanced
enough and enough of an extrovert to deal with external small minds without
being bothered.
It wasn't completely clear to me...............she is able to write all the
letters or just the ones in her name? I am curious whether she can already
spell short words and communicate with writing. In other words can she put
a letter down and ask you to name it? Just my curiosity, not a diagnostic
step.
If it is not clear...........no, you need not be concerned. In my opinion
she is closer to literacy than a child who can recite the alphabet in order
but has no clue what letters are capable of. Or can rattle off how to
spell their name but cannot draw it on paper OR in the air. Did I mention
that I think air writing is an advanced skill?
IF the time should come that other adults express their discomfort about
being around such a delightful child by making accusations toward her or
you, THEN would be the time to explain to your daughter than sometimes
adults have a rigid view of what children should be like and don't know how
to act around anyone who doesn't fit that mold. Often when people are
uncomfortable or even jealous they will lash out.
vicki
P.S.: You might also consider that the mom you referenced wasn't surprised
Linnea did not know how to verbalize letters and may not even have figured
that out. She might have been very surprised that a child would talk to
her like a peer or would expect her to read air writing!
On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 9:35 AM, Bea <beatrice.mantovani@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> My seven year old doesn't know the names of all the letters. She can
> recite the alphabet, she can write her name, but she can't spell her name
> out loud.
>
> I'm a little bit afraid that people are going to accuse me of educational
> neglect. It wouldn't worry me too much if she was a more introverted kid,
> but she's extremely extroverted and goes up to parents at the playground or
> in museums or wherever we go, and chats with them, and tells them her name,
> and the other day she said "my name is Linnea, I write it with an L, and
> then like this" (writing the rest of the letters in the air with her finger
> because she doesn't know their name.) I could see that the mom she was
> talking to was surprised that she didn't know her letters. Also, she is 7
> but she is tall for her age, and has a lot of adult teeth, so she looks
> older.
>
> I've read a lot about late readers, but there is less available on kids
> who don't know their letters, and I'm wondering if it's something I should
> be concerned about. It's not that I'm worried that she'll never learn the
> names of letters, I'm sure she will. But in the meantime, how should I
> handle it outside our home?
>
> Bea
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
If someone says something I would just say:
" Oh we are a trilingual family ." and leave it at that.
Be confident when you do it. If they ask again you can say that there are 3 different ways to say the name of a letter in your family because you all speak 3 different languages. If that does not impress anyone I would turn the questions on the person asking. How many languages do you speak? When did you learn them? Which one are you more fluent in?|
Change the direction of the conversation.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
" Oh we are a trilingual family ." and leave it at that.
Be confident when you do it. If they ask again you can say that there are 3 different ways to say the name of a letter in your family because you all speak 3 different languages. If that does not impress anyone I would turn the questions on the person asking. How many languages do you speak? When did you learn them? Which one are you more fluent in?|
Change the direction of the conversation.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 8:38 AM, Vicki Dennis <vicki@...> wrote:
but, surprisingly, still didn't remember the names of some of the letters
and couldn't say what sounds some individual letters made. I don't think
that is all that uncommon. Rosie's best friend at the time was a year older
than she was and didn't read or know the names of all the letters either.
Outside the home, protect her. Step in and change the subject if you sense
that someone is about to say something rude to her. There were a few
situations in which I went to an adult in advance and said, "Rosie is going
to be in your group and I wanted you to know that she doesn't read or know
letters yet so that you could be aware of that and not embarrass her."
People will sometimes assume the child has "special needs" - I would let
them think that so they'll be nice about it.
If anybody ever said anything about Rosie not knowing how to read or write
or spell or know the names of letters or the sounds a letter makes, I would
say, with an assured and confident tone, "Yes, we're working on it."
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But in the meantime, how should IAt 7, Rosie didn't know names of letters. She could read when she was 8,
> > handle it outside our home?
>
but, surprisingly, still didn't remember the names of some of the letters
and couldn't say what sounds some individual letters made. I don't think
that is all that uncommon. Rosie's best friend at the time was a year older
than she was and didn't read or know the names of all the letters either.
Outside the home, protect her. Step in and change the subject if you sense
that someone is about to say something rude to her. There were a few
situations in which I went to an adult in advance and said, "Rosie is going
to be in your group and I wanted you to know that she doesn't read or know
letters yet so that you could be aware of that and not embarrass her."
People will sometimes assume the child has "special needs" - I would let
them think that so they'll be nice about it.
If anybody ever said anything about Rosie not knowing how to read or write
or spell or know the names of letters or the sounds a letter makes, I would
say, with an assured and confident tone, "Yes, we're working on it."
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-It's not that I'm worried that she'll never learn the names of letters, I'm sure she will. But in the meantime, how should I handle it outside our home?-=-
I would play games with her at home, or play games when you're out of finding letters on billboards or signs or license plates. Maybe collect different forms of letters cut out from magazines and have an "A" poster (one sheet of paper) and put different kinds of "A's"--sometimes kids who aren't in school get confused because "in the wild," in the real world, people haven't decided on a single font as a school will have done, so that there's an alphabet up on the wall and the books the kids are "reading" from (or memorizing) use that same font.
My kids liked for me to open a word file and set the font really big and they would "type" and see the letters come up. She might be willing to do that. Maybe as each letter comes up you could name it (rather than asking her to) and then a word or name she knows and likes.
When a child doesn't know her address and I ask what the mother has done to help her learn it and the answer is "nothing," that does seem a little neglectful to me. If a child is lost and knows her parents name and address or phone number, a guard or policeman or a friendly mom can help her quickly get home. When a child is lost and can't answer those simple questions, they end up at a police station, with many questions being asked.
Educationally, there's a similar situation. If a child seems "behind" it's worth wondering if there are easy things that could be done�fun things, games, goofs, casual things.
Reading is complicated, and often comes suddenly when all the skills and abilities are mature, and the child is and has been around print. It might take longer for tri-lingual children, I don't know that.
That might be an issue with the alphabet, too, with a child using more than one language, with variations on the names of letters and additional letters in one or more alphabets.
For a child who only knows English, the alphabet song and goofing with words and names and signs usually does it, maybe many years before reading. Kirby could name letters (because of Sesame Street and plastic refrigerator-door magnets) before he knew how to answer "How old are you?" But he didn't read for another six years.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I would play games with her at home, or play games when you're out of finding letters on billboards or signs or license plates. Maybe collect different forms of letters cut out from magazines and have an "A" poster (one sheet of paper) and put different kinds of "A's"--sometimes kids who aren't in school get confused because "in the wild," in the real world, people haven't decided on a single font as a school will have done, so that there's an alphabet up on the wall and the books the kids are "reading" from (or memorizing) use that same font.
My kids liked for me to open a word file and set the font really big and they would "type" and see the letters come up. She might be willing to do that. Maybe as each letter comes up you could name it (rather than asking her to) and then a word or name she knows and likes.
When a child doesn't know her address and I ask what the mother has done to help her learn it and the answer is "nothing," that does seem a little neglectful to me. If a child is lost and knows her parents name and address or phone number, a guard or policeman or a friendly mom can help her quickly get home. When a child is lost and can't answer those simple questions, they end up at a police station, with many questions being asked.
Educationally, there's a similar situation. If a child seems "behind" it's worth wondering if there are easy things that could be done�fun things, games, goofs, casual things.
Reading is complicated, and often comes suddenly when all the skills and abilities are mature, and the child is and has been around print. It might take longer for tri-lingual children, I don't know that.
That might be an issue with the alphabet, too, with a child using more than one language, with variations on the names of letters and additional letters in one or more alphabets.
For a child who only knows English, the alphabet song and goofing with words and names and signs usually does it, maybe many years before reading. Kirby could name letters (because of Sesame Street and plastic refrigerator-door magnets) before he knew how to answer "How old are you?" But he didn't read for another six years.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-In my opinion she is closer to literacy than a child who can recite the alphabet in order
but has no clue what letters are capable of. -=-
I agree with that.
-=-IF the time should come that other adults express their discomfort about
being around such a delightful child by making accusations toward her or
you, THEN would be the time to explain to your daughter than sometimes
adults have a rigid view of what children should be like and don't know how
to act around anyone who doesn't fit that mold.-=-
This one, not as much. Would another example fit it? Should a parent assume that if other adults don't express their discomfort, that they're not uncomfortable? What about booger-picking at the table? I think the time to iscuss that with a child is before she eats at someone else's table, not after they endure it in silence a while and finally express discomfort.
Learning the names of letters isn't as hard as learning to write (even in the air) or to read, and it is a very useful thing to know.
There might be video games that require knowing letters.
Vicki also wrote:
-=-P.S.: You might also consider that the mom you referenced wasn't surprised
Linnea did not know how to verbalize letters and may not even have figured
that out. She might have been very surprised that a child would talk to
her like a peer or would expect her to read air writing!-=-
True too, but sometimes if there's an easy solution and a child is well into school age, it's not a bad idea to look into enriching that part of her life in fun and painless ways.
Sandra
but has no clue what letters are capable of. -=-
I agree with that.
-=-IF the time should come that other adults express their discomfort about
being around such a delightful child by making accusations toward her or
you, THEN would be the time to explain to your daughter than sometimes
adults have a rigid view of what children should be like and don't know how
to act around anyone who doesn't fit that mold.-=-
This one, not as much. Would another example fit it? Should a parent assume that if other adults don't express their discomfort, that they're not uncomfortable? What about booger-picking at the table? I think the time to iscuss that with a child is before she eats at someone else's table, not after they endure it in silence a while and finally express discomfort.
Learning the names of letters isn't as hard as learning to write (even in the air) or to read, and it is a very useful thing to know.
There might be video games that require knowing letters.
Vicki also wrote:
-=-P.S.: You might also consider that the mom you referenced wasn't surprised
Linnea did not know how to verbalize letters and may not even have figured
that out. She might have been very surprised that a child would talk to
her like a peer or would expect her to read air writing!-=-
True too, but sometimes if there's an easy solution and a child is well into school age, it's not a bad idea to look into enriching that part of her life in fun and painless ways.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
Perhaps ambiguous:
----------
Learning the names of letters isn't as hard as learning to write (even in the air) or to read, and it is a very useful thing to know.
There might be video games that require knowing letters.
----------
I didn't mean it's useful to be able to play more games. I meant if there are games that will help them learn letter names and the games are otherwise fun, that might be another thing to consider offering or playing in front of them.
-=-True too, but sometimes if there's an easy solution and a child is well into school age, it's not a bad idea to look into enriching that part of her life in fun and painless ways.-=-
I think the same thing about musical styles, and maps, and "vocabulary" and other things. If a child seems clueless about something (the name of the river that flows through her own town) it seems to me the parents should be getting her out more and talking to her. If a child can't talk about colors, or birds, or doesn't know the names of any musical instruments, I do wonder what the family is seeing together and talking about. Those things, too, might be slower to come in tri-lingual children, who will at some point burst out naming birds and singing songs in three languages. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----------
Learning the names of letters isn't as hard as learning to write (even in the air) or to read, and it is a very useful thing to know.
There might be video games that require knowing letters.
----------
I didn't mean it's useful to be able to play more games. I meant if there are games that will help them learn letter names and the games are otherwise fun, that might be another thing to consider offering or playing in front of them.
-=-True too, but sometimes if there's an easy solution and a child is well into school age, it's not a bad idea to look into enriching that part of her life in fun and painless ways.-=-
I think the same thing about musical styles, and maps, and "vocabulary" and other things. If a child seems clueless about something (the name of the river that flows through her own town) it seems to me the parents should be getting her out more and talking to her. If a child can't talk about colors, or birds, or doesn't know the names of any musical instruments, I do wonder what the family is seeing together and talking about. Those things, too, might be slower to come in tri-lingual children, who will at some point burst out naming birds and singing songs in three languages. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vicki Dennis
I typed out a thoughtful response but it seems to have disappeared. I have
not time to recreate so will just list the points and hope some can fill
in.
not time to recreate so will just list the points and hope some can fill
in.
On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> -=-In my opinion she is closer to literacy than a child who can recite the
> alphabet in order
> but has no clue what letters are capable of. -=-
>
> I agree with that.
>
> -=-IF the time should come that other adults express their discomfort about
>
> being around such a delightful child by making accusations toward her or
> you, THEN would be the time to explain to your daughter than sometimes
> adults have a rigid view of what children should be like and don't know how
> to act around anyone who doesn't fit that mold.-=-
>
> This one, not as much. Would another example fit it? Should a parent
> assume that if other adults don't express their discomfort, that they're
> not uncomfortable?
>
I don't find worrying about adults' comfort level to be a prime directive
What about booger-picking at the table? I think the time to iscuss that
> with a child is before she eats at someone else's table, not after they
> endure it in silence a while and finally express discomfort.
>
Booger picking is, in my opinion, more intrusive than whether someone can
name letters, just as eating at someone else's table involves different
social conventions than a casual meeting in a public space.
>
> Learning the names of letters isn't as hard as learning to write (even in
> the air) or to read, and it is a very useful thing to know.
>
Lots of things are useful to know (I think algebra is useful for example)
but that does not mean there is a deadline for learning it. Or, more to
the point, whether it must be forcibly (or even suggestively) taught.
>
> There might be video games that require knowing letters.
>
> Vicki also wrote:
> -=-P.S.: You might also consider that the mom you referenced wasn't
> surprised
>
> Linnea did not know how to verbalize letters and may not even have figured
> that out. She might have been very surprised that a child would talk to
> her like a peer or would expect her to read air writing!-=-
>
> True too, but sometimes if there's an easy solution and a child is well
> into school age, it's not a bad idea to look into enriching that part of
> her life in fun and painless ways.
>
I avoid terms like "well into school age", particularly for a seven year
old where that description would not be a universal fit. In my opinion,
Linnea has a very enriched life and was eager to demonstrate her skills. I
doubt Bea hides printed materials or refuses to answer if asked a letter
name or a word pronunciation. Seems pretty "schooly" to decide that there
is a problem or that the child is "behind".
vicki
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bernadette Lynn
On 12 May 2013 15:35, Bea <beatrice.mantovani@...> wrote:
Maybe you could help her learn to recite the letters of her name? If she
can recite the alphabet, she could probably learn to recite L-i-n-n-e-a
very easily. My seven-year-old could spell 'Pokémon' for months before she
could spell anything else, because the theme song for one series of the TV
show spelled it out.
Bernadette.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> My seven year old doesn't know the names of all the letters. She can=================
> recite the alphabet, she can write her name, but she can't spell her name
> out loud.
>
> But in the meantime, how should I handle it outside our home?
Maybe you could help her learn to recite the letters of her name? If she
can recite the alphabet, she could probably learn to recite L-i-n-n-e-a
very easily. My seven-year-old could spell 'Pokémon' for months before she
could spell anything else, because the theme song for one series of the TV
show spelled it out.
Bernadette.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bragdontina
This is taken from the discussion in the last few weeks about concerns of a 7 year old not knowing names of letters of the alphabet. I am not sure Sandra if you caught this response in the thread to a reply you made (yours is the part talking about if the child is well into school age and enriching their life...) OK, so I would be interested to discuss the response the phrasing that jumped out at me...that it seems pretty "schooly" to discuss their being a problem or being "behind".
So, taking your comment Sandra, I am wondering about what you said or meant, or if you could clarify it. Reading yours/Vicki's words brought all kinds of thoughts to me in the last few weeks, especially as I discussed strewing a few months ago and all my baggage around it given my circumstances (post #69723). How can you be "in the middle" in this regard and not to either extremes (like doing "nothing" so as to not have "forced teaching" and not be a true unschooler, or the extreme opposite--just slamming a curriculum/workbook, or playing games, on the kid because of mom's underlying fear/discomfort that "you are 'x' age and most kids of 'x' age should know this by now.")
Both my children have areas that I am sure others would be very surprised that they didn't "know", given their ages, and at 13 and 10 yrs old they are both well into school age believe me. One example recently that made me think of this whole thread, is dd (13) was struggling to play Monoploy at Girl Guides as she has never added columns of numbers on paper, and couldn't do the mental math in her head to pay people or buy things, although I know in real life she has done so with allowance and rounding it up in her head/estimating change, or "candy money" in much smaller amounts under 10.00, and with basic things like even amounts of dollars (no cents involved). The other girls had to help her out a lot. Dd didn't go into alot of detail but it didn't seem to bother her. I did have alot of mixed feelings, all sorts of guilt feelings like I haven't done enough, that unschooling doesn't "work" or that I have taken perhaps too extreme an approach at times over the years, and not gotten all the resources that my kids could have benefitted from because in my paralysis by analysis over the years I have thought them "too Schooly" and gee, an unschooler does not do that. or maybe I had unrealistic expectations and she should be wanting to do algebra by now.
Problem is also, sometimes the "fun and painless ways" I have tried meet with major resistance from my kids as well, sigh! They smell motives a mile away and the more enriching I do the more balking I get.
Thoughts anyone? Basically what I am asking is when would "enriching" be just crossing the line into unwanted teaching, or how can you just relax, strew, swirl the big world around them, and trust that they will learn what they need to know as they need to know it?
So, taking your comment Sandra, I am wondering about what you said or meant, or if you could clarify it. Reading yours/Vicki's words brought all kinds of thoughts to me in the last few weeks, especially as I discussed strewing a few months ago and all my baggage around it given my circumstances (post #69723). How can you be "in the middle" in this regard and not to either extremes (like doing "nothing" so as to not have "forced teaching" and not be a true unschooler, or the extreme opposite--just slamming a curriculum/workbook, or playing games, on the kid because of mom's underlying fear/discomfort that "you are 'x' age and most kids of 'x' age should know this by now.")
Both my children have areas that I am sure others would be very surprised that they didn't "know", given their ages, and at 13 and 10 yrs old they are both well into school age believe me. One example recently that made me think of this whole thread, is dd (13) was struggling to play Monoploy at Girl Guides as she has never added columns of numbers on paper, and couldn't do the mental math in her head to pay people or buy things, although I know in real life she has done so with allowance and rounding it up in her head/estimating change, or "candy money" in much smaller amounts under 10.00, and with basic things like even amounts of dollars (no cents involved). The other girls had to help her out a lot. Dd didn't go into alot of detail but it didn't seem to bother her. I did have alot of mixed feelings, all sorts of guilt feelings like I haven't done enough, that unschooling doesn't "work" or that I have taken perhaps too extreme an approach at times over the years, and not gotten all the resources that my kids could have benefitted from because in my paralysis by analysis over the years I have thought them "too Schooly" and gee, an unschooler does not do that. or maybe I had unrealistic expectations and she should be wanting to do algebra by now.
Problem is also, sometimes the "fun and painless ways" I have tried meet with major resistance from my kids as well, sigh! They smell motives a mile away and the more enriching I do the more balking I get.
Thoughts anyone? Basically what I am asking is when would "enriching" be just crossing the line into unwanted teaching, or how can you just relax, strew, swirl the big world around them, and trust that they will learn what they need to know as they need to know it?
--- In [email protected], Vicki Dennis <vicki@...> wrote:
>
> I typed out a thoughtful response but it seems to have disappeared. I have
> not time to recreate so will just list the points and hope some can fill
> in.
>
>
>
> > Vicki also wrote:
> > -=-P.S.: You might also consider that the mom you referenced wasn't
> > surprised
> >
> > Linnea did not know how to verbalize letters and may not even have figured
> > that out. She might have been very surprised that a child would talk to
> > her like a peer or would expect her to read air writing!-=-
> >
> > True too, but sometimes if there's an easy solution and a child is well
> > into school age, it's not a bad idea to look into enriching that part of
> > her life in fun and painless ways.
> >
>
>
> I avoid terms like "well into school age", particularly for a seven year
> old where that description would not be a universal fit. In my opinion,
> Linnea has a very enriched life and was eager to demonstrate her skills. I
> doubt Bea hides printed materials or refuses to answer if asked a letter
> name or a word pronunciation. Seems pretty "schooly" to decide that there
> is a problem or that the child is "behind".
>
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Sandra Dodd
-=-So, taking your comment Sandra, I am wondering about what you said or meant, or if you could clarify it. Reading yours/Vicki's words brought all kinds of thoughts to me in the last few weeks, especially as I discussed strewing a few months ago and all my baggage around it given my circumstances (post #69723). How can you be "in the middle" in this regard and not to either extremes (like doing "nothing" so as to not have "forced teaching" and not be a true unschooler, or the extreme opposite--just slamming a curriculum/workbook, or playing games, on the kid because of mom's underlying fear/discomfort that "you are 'x' age and most kids of 'x' age should know this by now.")
-=-
Here's the link to the longer, more detailed question (and the responses from that time): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/69723?threaded=1&l=1
I'm still not really understanding the question. "How can you be in the middle"? Somewhere between doing nothing (neglect) and constant teaching/measuring/pressure?
It's unschooling. It's all of this: http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
It's all of this: http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
It's all of this: http://livingjoyfully.ca
People can't act like unschoolers. They need to become unschoolers.
The reason unschooling can't happen part time is that when the expectations are firm, and a family expects "grade level" or any other schoolish overlay, the natural learning isn't going to really flow. The kids will be avoiding the instruction and pressure, and the parents will not learn to see the natural learning.
-=- The other girls had to help her out a lot. Dd didn't go into alot of detail but it didn't seem to bother her. I did have alot of mixed feelings, all sorts of guilt feelings like I haven't done enough, that unschooling doesn't "work" or that I have taken perhaps too extreme an approach at times over the years, and not gotten all the resources that my kids could have benefitted from because in my paralysis by analysis over the years I have thought them "too Schooly" and gee, an unschooler does not do that. or maybe I had unrealistic expectations and she should be wanting to do algebra by now.-=-
First, playing monopoly is helping her learn NOW. Lots of kids say "how much is that?" when they're playing monopoly or buying things in real stores.
I'm not sure what resources you could have gotten, and I'm not sure what you already had, but did your kids have an allowance? Did you play card games (rummy, poker, Five Crowns)? Do they play video games that involve gathering resources and spending them back out in barter or "gold"?
My kids learned a lot of their number-manipulation from games that involved cards, dice, scores�Magic, for Kirby, and D&D.
-=-Problem is also, sometimes the "fun and painless ways" I have tried meet with major resistance from my kids as well, sigh! -=-
They probably resisted your motives. Fun for the sake of learning isn't as painless as fun for the sake of fun. :-)
-=-Thoughts anyone? Basically what I am asking is when would "enriching" be just crossing the line into unwanted teaching, or how can you just relax, strew, swirl the big world around them, and trust that they will learn what they need to know as they need to know it?-=-
You can't trust if you're not deschooled.
You can't relax if you're not deschooled.
A school-kid mom can't be a good unschooling mom.
Only an unschooling mom can relax, strew, swirl and trust.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling (Deschooling for parents is the name of that page, and I think probably half of the people who come to unschooling think they don't need it. That's pretty much the half that needs it most.)
Here's something by Joyce: http://sandradodd.com/joyce/deschooling
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-
Here's the link to the longer, more detailed question (and the responses from that time): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/69723?threaded=1&l=1
I'm still not really understanding the question. "How can you be in the middle"? Somewhere between doing nothing (neglect) and constant teaching/measuring/pressure?
It's unschooling. It's all of this: http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
It's all of this: http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
It's all of this: http://livingjoyfully.ca
People can't act like unschoolers. They need to become unschoolers.
The reason unschooling can't happen part time is that when the expectations are firm, and a family expects "grade level" or any other schoolish overlay, the natural learning isn't going to really flow. The kids will be avoiding the instruction and pressure, and the parents will not learn to see the natural learning.
-=- The other girls had to help her out a lot. Dd didn't go into alot of detail but it didn't seem to bother her. I did have alot of mixed feelings, all sorts of guilt feelings like I haven't done enough, that unschooling doesn't "work" or that I have taken perhaps too extreme an approach at times over the years, and not gotten all the resources that my kids could have benefitted from because in my paralysis by analysis over the years I have thought them "too Schooly" and gee, an unschooler does not do that. or maybe I had unrealistic expectations and she should be wanting to do algebra by now.-=-
First, playing monopoly is helping her learn NOW. Lots of kids say "how much is that?" when they're playing monopoly or buying things in real stores.
I'm not sure what resources you could have gotten, and I'm not sure what you already had, but did your kids have an allowance? Did you play card games (rummy, poker, Five Crowns)? Do they play video games that involve gathering resources and spending them back out in barter or "gold"?
My kids learned a lot of their number-manipulation from games that involved cards, dice, scores�Magic, for Kirby, and D&D.
-=-Problem is also, sometimes the "fun and painless ways" I have tried meet with major resistance from my kids as well, sigh! -=-
They probably resisted your motives. Fun for the sake of learning isn't as painless as fun for the sake of fun. :-)
-=-Thoughts anyone? Basically what I am asking is when would "enriching" be just crossing the line into unwanted teaching, or how can you just relax, strew, swirl the big world around them, and trust that they will learn what they need to know as they need to know it?-=-
You can't trust if you're not deschooled.
You can't relax if you're not deschooled.
A school-kid mom can't be a good unschooling mom.
Only an unschooling mom can relax, strew, swirl and trust.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling (Deschooling for parents is the name of that page, and I think probably half of the people who come to unschooling think they don't need it. That's pretty much the half that needs it most.)
Here's something by Joyce: http://sandradodd.com/joyce/deschooling
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chris ester
On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 11:33 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
These are the snippets that hit home for me. They reminded me of a not
altogether comfortable learning experience that my son helped me have.
When I realized that I still needed more de-schooling:
We had been officially homeschooling for about 4 years and unschooling for
about 3 of those (I am not sure when we got to radical unschooling).
I thought that I had a handle on all of my schoolish impulses. There were
leftover workbooks on the shelf with the coloring books and we still had
flash cards that we played games with, but we were living and learning and
loving...
We belong to a homeschool umbrella group as part of our legal requirements
(instead of being reviewed by our local Board of Ed) in Maryland. This
group is great because they arrange lots of field trips. We love field
trips and they get us good discounts.
One of these trips was to the science center to see the nationally
recognized traveling exhibit that is all about farting and burping. I
signed us up.
The day of the trip, all of the parents were delighted with the artfully
displayed science. Most of the kids loved it. My son however asked where
the science was (he loves all things science). When I said, "it's right
here, this is science!" My son replied, "Yeah Mom, but it's third grade
science! I want to see REAL science!"
I realized that he was right. None of that display had anything to do with
the natural inquiry that is the essence of science. It was pre-packaged,
sound bite edu-tainment.
I initially thought it was great because it looked like the sort of thing
that a teacher would use. It gave me that warm fuzzy sense that I could
point to things that my kids learned in the handouts we were given. But my
son brought me down to earth and I realized that I needed to get clearer
on what was real life and learning and what was inauthentic factoids and
school and the difference between the two. I still needed to de-school.
For the record, it wasn't a total bust because we found some other less
flashy real science on another floor. :)
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>>>>>People can't act like unschoolers. They need to becomeSandra,
> unschoolers.<<<<<<<
>
> >>>>> The kids will be avoiding the instruction and pressure, and the
> parents will not learn to see the natural learning.<<<<<
>
>
> >>>>They probably resisted your motives. Fun for the sake of learning
> isn't as painless as fun for the sake of fun. :-)<<<<<
>
>
> >>>>You can't trust if you're not deschooled.
> You can't relax if you're not deschooled.
>
> A school-kid mom can't be a good unschooling mom.
> Only an unschooling mom can relax, strew, swirl and trust.<<<<<<<<
>
>
> Sandra
>
>
These are the snippets that hit home for me. They reminded me of a not
altogether comfortable learning experience that my son helped me have.
When I realized that I still needed more de-schooling:
We had been officially homeschooling for about 4 years and unschooling for
about 3 of those (I am not sure when we got to radical unschooling).
I thought that I had a handle on all of my schoolish impulses. There were
leftover workbooks on the shelf with the coloring books and we still had
flash cards that we played games with, but we were living and learning and
loving...
We belong to a homeschool umbrella group as part of our legal requirements
(instead of being reviewed by our local Board of Ed) in Maryland. This
group is great because they arrange lots of field trips. We love field
trips and they get us good discounts.
One of these trips was to the science center to see the nationally
recognized traveling exhibit that is all about farting and burping. I
signed us up.
The day of the trip, all of the parents were delighted with the artfully
displayed science. Most of the kids loved it. My son however asked where
the science was (he loves all things science). When I said, "it's right
here, this is science!" My son replied, "Yeah Mom, but it's third grade
science! I want to see REAL science!"
I realized that he was right. None of that display had anything to do with
the natural inquiry that is the essence of science. It was pre-packaged,
sound bite edu-tainment.
I initially thought it was great because it looked like the sort of thing
that a teacher would use. It gave me that warm fuzzy sense that I could
point to things that my kids learned in the handouts we were given. But my
son brought me down to earth and I realized that I needed to get clearer
on what was real life and learning and what was inauthentic factoids and
school and the difference between the two. I still needed to de-school.
For the record, it wasn't a total bust because we found some other less
flashy real science on another floor. :)
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"bragdontina" <bragdontina@...> wrote:
That's an age range where unschoolers generally don't have the same collection of math tricks school kids have.
If she was upset about not being able to add in the context of the game you could offer her some ideas and show her some tricks - not a big slew of schooly lessons, but a quick sit down with pen and paper.
You could offer to play more games that involve score keeping or handling "money" of one kind or another if she wanted specific practice with those things.
But even if none of that interested her, she already knows how to do some real world math - that's not an extreme of "doing nothing", it's someone learning from life.
When your kids are resisting, that's a pretty good sign you're doing something they don't want!
In real life, people sometimes learn things in a very different sequence from school-type learning. Rather than learning "just in case" a lot of real learn comes from realizing what you don't know. Your daughter asking for help in a game Was her learning - real life "how do you do that?" grown-up learning.
My daughter just started her period - like a week ago. For about the past year I've been trying to figure out how to make sure she knew what was coming - strewing books and websites, making comments about my own period, trying to bring the subject up in conversation. She mostly wasn't interested - she skimmed through some of the books I got, but I'm not sure what she got from that, and she's not much of a talker. She had a kind of vague idea that Big Changes Were Happening and didn't panic when she got her period, but she didn't have the big store of Important Information in her head I did at the same age. Now, though, she's interested in learning more - not a lot more, because all this talk of internal organs and baby-making is icky - but basic things like "how long is this supposed to go on?" and "what do you mean Next Month?"
---Meredith
>> Both my children have areas that I am sure others would be very surprised that they didn't "know", given their ages, and at 13 and 10**************
That's an age range where unschoolers generally don't have the same collection of math tricks school kids have.
>> How can you be "in the middle" in this regard and not to either extremes*************
If she was upset about not being able to add in the context of the game you could offer her some ideas and show her some tricks - not a big slew of schooly lessons, but a quick sit down with pen and paper.
You could offer to play more games that involve score keeping or handling "money" of one kind or another if she wanted specific practice with those things.
But even if none of that interested her, she already knows how to do some real world math - that's not an extreme of "doing nothing", it's someone learning from life.
>>when would "enriching" be just crossing the line into unwanted teaching************
When your kids are resisting, that's a pretty good sign you're doing something they don't want!
In real life, people sometimes learn things in a very different sequence from school-type learning. Rather than learning "just in case" a lot of real learn comes from realizing what you don't know. Your daughter asking for help in a game Was her learning - real life "how do you do that?" grown-up learning.
My daughter just started her period - like a week ago. For about the past year I've been trying to figure out how to make sure she knew what was coming - strewing books and websites, making comments about my own period, trying to bring the subject up in conversation. She mostly wasn't interested - she skimmed through some of the books I got, but I'm not sure what she got from that, and she's not much of a talker. She had a kind of vague idea that Big Changes Were Happening and didn't panic when she got her period, but she didn't have the big store of Important Information in her head I did at the same age. Now, though, she's interested in learning more - not a lot more, because all this talk of internal organs and baby-making is icky - but basic things like "how long is this supposed to go on?" and "what do you mean Next Month?"
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-and "what do you mean Next Month?" -=-
Yeah, that was the worst part. No simple "Oh, that was interesting; glad THAT's done!"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yeah, that was the worst part. No simple "Oh, that was interesting; glad THAT's done!"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-That's an age range where unschoolers generally don't have the same collection of math tricks school kids have.-=-
Right.
Generally speaking, unschoolers seem ahead for a while, and then behind for a while, and then ahead again.
Young kids can be all sparkly and impressive.
When the school kids are learning arcane things like paragraphs and equations and conjugation, and maybe mentioning it at home, the unschooled kids can think they don't know ANYthing for a little bit.
Then something happens; I've seen it lots, when the parents don't screw it up, when conditions are good.
The school kids figure out, when theyre 14 or so, that school just goes on and on (kind of like "what do you mean Next Semester" :-)) and that they're starting to miss out on some real-life experiences in exchange for little slips of paper that only have a column of letters written on them. Not even money, just the names of subjects and (if they're lucky) some A's and B's. The kids at school start to balk. LOTS of schoolkids shut down, stop liking school (if they ever did), start becoming hardened, start showing their brokenness.
Meanwhile, the unschoolers come into puberty and, without being broken, having had all that time to play, and to think, and to talk to adults and kids of all ages, they start to put all their thousands of bits of trivia into patterns and connections that (turns out) are useful in real-life ways. And when they see the abilities they've gained to synthesize information, they are egaer to get MORE information and find MORE cool channels, sources and resources. When their parents are able to get them into the world, some of them find wonderful things to do�real things, with adults, like adults, as adults�sometimes for money, sometimes not, but they are IN the world.
Unless the parents don't get unschooling flowing by then, and get into the flow themselves.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Right.
Generally speaking, unschoolers seem ahead for a while, and then behind for a while, and then ahead again.
Young kids can be all sparkly and impressive.
When the school kids are learning arcane things like paragraphs and equations and conjugation, and maybe mentioning it at home, the unschooled kids can think they don't know ANYthing for a little bit.
Then something happens; I've seen it lots, when the parents don't screw it up, when conditions are good.
The school kids figure out, when theyre 14 or so, that school just goes on and on (kind of like "what do you mean Next Semester" :-)) and that they're starting to miss out on some real-life experiences in exchange for little slips of paper that only have a column of letters written on them. Not even money, just the names of subjects and (if they're lucky) some A's and B's. The kids at school start to balk. LOTS of schoolkids shut down, stop liking school (if they ever did), start becoming hardened, start showing their brokenness.
Meanwhile, the unschoolers come into puberty and, without being broken, having had all that time to play, and to think, and to talk to adults and kids of all ages, they start to put all their thousands of bits of trivia into patterns and connections that (turns out) are useful in real-life ways. And when they see the abilities they've gained to synthesize information, they are egaer to get MORE information and find MORE cool channels, sources and resources. When their parents are able to get them into the world, some of them find wonderful things to do�real things, with adults, like adults, as adults�sometimes for money, sometimes not, but they are IN the world.
Unless the parents don't get unschooling flowing by then, and get into the flow themselves.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]