Need advice and support
bhmjones
My name is Brad. I've been a strong advocate of Unschooling for a few years now and have educated as many people about it as possible.
I live in Alabama which is one of the few states where it is relatively simple law wise to Unschool..... However, assuredly "The State" (meaning The State of Alabama, and all those who support "the state" running your lives) does not officially support it nor any type of home education.....
My wife, one who supports "The State", recently left me and gained custody of the children primarily by expressing to the judge (aka "The State") that my "radical" beliefs about Unschooling was detrimental to our children....
I am seeking support of any kind from anyone who is interested in helping a fellow unschooler defend our legal, and healthy, beliefs from intrusion by the government, and who would help defend against the interference of "The State" in our legal private lives.
I live in Alabama which is one of the few states where it is relatively simple law wise to Unschool..... However, assuredly "The State" (meaning The State of Alabama, and all those who support "the state" running your lives) does not officially support it nor any type of home education.....
My wife, one who supports "The State", recently left me and gained custody of the children primarily by expressing to the judge (aka "The State") that my "radical" beliefs about Unschooling was detrimental to our children....
I am seeking support of any kind from anyone who is interested in helping a fellow unschooler defend our legal, and healthy, beliefs from intrusion by the government, and who would help defend against the interference of "The State" in our legal private lives.
Sandra Dodd
Brad, I let your post through mostly to say that it's inappropriate, because it's not about how learning works, or how to make unschooling thrive. Some discussion is okay, but it might not be the discussion you were hoping for, because this isn't and was never intended to be a political discussion. We have people from all over the world.
-=-My wife, one who supports "The State", recently left me and gained custody of the children primarily by expressing to the judge (aka "The State") that my "radical" beliefs about Unschooling was detrimental to our children...._+_
When a husband and wife (or the parents, or the partners) don't agree on unschooling, then unschooling is probably not going to work well. And if they disagree so much on something that's largely poltiical, that's putting other things before their children. Your children might have been happier if you and your wife could have been at peace an they had been in school. From that point, if school wasn't working for them, maybe both of you culd have seen and agreed that bringing them home might be better.
But if one parent's move on this chessboard is that unschooling is more important than the marriage, everyone is likely to lose.
-=I am seeking support of any kind from anyone who is interested in helping a fellow unschooler defend our legal, and healthy, beliefs from intrusion by the government, and who would help defend against the interference of "The State" in our legal private lives.-=-
Defend OUR? You want people to help you defend your choices and hopes from the mother of your children, and that's not the same as intrusion from the government.
When you married and had children, that family unit had some power and rights, but one parent doesn't have "a legal private life" that excludes the other parent�not even after a divorce, unless one is given full custody and the other is given a restraining order.
When you were born, you were born somewhere. There were laws, before you were born. Your parents probably knew that. It's not governmental intrusion in "legal private lives" (I've never heard that phrase before; it's interesting) to provide schools and write laws so that some parents can't choose to keep their children home as sharecroppers or factory workers or world-of-warcraft gold farmers. The first two were more likely 90 years ago than now. The third is more likely in China.
-=-I am seeking support of any kind from anyone who is interested in helping a fellow unschooler defend our legal, and healthy, beliefs...-=-
I don't think trying to keep children at home against their mother's will is more legal or healthy than to put them in school against their mother's will. I think you're asking the government to intrude and keep your wife from putting the kids in school, maybe?
Learning will work best when children are fed, warm, feel safe and loved. Those seem to be more important than any politics. In general, a full family with two parents can be a good way to provide food, shelter, safety and love.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-My wife, one who supports "The State", recently left me and gained custody of the children primarily by expressing to the judge (aka "The State") that my "radical" beliefs about Unschooling was detrimental to our children...._+_
When a husband and wife (or the parents, or the partners) don't agree on unschooling, then unschooling is probably not going to work well. And if they disagree so much on something that's largely poltiical, that's putting other things before their children. Your children might have been happier if you and your wife could have been at peace an they had been in school. From that point, if school wasn't working for them, maybe both of you culd have seen and agreed that bringing them home might be better.
But if one parent's move on this chessboard is that unschooling is more important than the marriage, everyone is likely to lose.
-=I am seeking support of any kind from anyone who is interested in helping a fellow unschooler defend our legal, and healthy, beliefs from intrusion by the government, and who would help defend against the interference of "The State" in our legal private lives.-=-
Defend OUR? You want people to help you defend your choices and hopes from the mother of your children, and that's not the same as intrusion from the government.
When you married and had children, that family unit had some power and rights, but one parent doesn't have "a legal private life" that excludes the other parent�not even after a divorce, unless one is given full custody and the other is given a restraining order.
When you were born, you were born somewhere. There were laws, before you were born. Your parents probably knew that. It's not governmental intrusion in "legal private lives" (I've never heard that phrase before; it's interesting) to provide schools and write laws so that some parents can't choose to keep their children home as sharecroppers or factory workers or world-of-warcraft gold farmers. The first two were more likely 90 years ago than now. The third is more likely in China.
-=-I am seeking support of any kind from anyone who is interested in helping a fellow unschooler defend our legal, and healthy, beliefs...-=-
I don't think trying to keep children at home against their mother's will is more legal or healthy than to put them in school against their mother's will. I think you're asking the government to intrude and keep your wife from putting the kids in school, maybe?
Learning will work best when children are fed, warm, feel safe and loved. Those seem to be more important than any politics. In general, a full family with two parents can be a good way to provide food, shelter, safety and love.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:49 PM, bhmjones wrote:
If you can let go of the idea you're being wronged by The State, perhaps then you can focus on your children and what they want most rather than on unschooling.
A fundamentalist Christian, Catholic, vegan, liberal ... any parent with strong beliefs can be certain his kids will be harmed by the opposite of those beliefs.
But what will harm children far more than school or beef or Republicans is parents who can't work together to create a peaceful environment for them to grow up in. You'll help your children far more by letting go of your sense of being wronged and focus on how you've wronging them with a broken family. You'll help them by learning more about building better relationships and then building bridges with your wife.
Kids in school with 2 parents who can communicate well are going to do much better than homeschooling kids whose parents are angry and can't work together.
Joyce
> I am seeking support of any kind from anyoneIt's not the state that's causing you grief. It's you not being able to work with your wife. And the court will support the more conservative choices.
> who is interested in helping a fellow unschooler
> defend our legal, and healthy, beliefs
If you can let go of the idea you're being wronged by The State, perhaps then you can focus on your children and what they want most rather than on unschooling.
A fundamentalist Christian, Catholic, vegan, liberal ... any parent with strong beliefs can be certain his kids will be harmed by the opposite of those beliefs.
But what will harm children far more than school or beef or Republicans is parents who can't work together to create a peaceful environment for them to grow up in. You'll help your children far more by letting go of your sense of being wronged and focus on how you've wronging them with a broken family. You'll help them by learning more about building better relationships and then building bridges with your wife.
Kids in school with 2 parents who can communicate well are going to do much better than homeschooling kids whose parents are angry and can't work together.
Joyce
Pam Sorooshian
Don't fight "The State" at the expense of your child's current peace -
especially for a child who has already had some major traumatic life events
- divorcing parents and being put into school.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
especially for a child who has already had some major traumatic life events
- divorcing parents and being put into school.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"bhmjones" <bhmjones@...> wrote:
I've unschooled across a divorce. It requires a certain amount of trust between the two families, so that's where I recommend you begin - what can you do so that your children's mother sees you as trustworthy where their education is concerned? That's more often a question women are faced with than men, so it could be helpful for you to seek out past threads where moms are asking how they can get more support from husbands who are reluctant, skeptical, or otherwise unsupportive of unschooling (I'm trying to think of "search" words - unsupportive comes up with this thread:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/69265
One of the things that helped us continue unschooling, and eventually allowed my stepson's mom to be more directly involved, was that I did more reporting than what was required by the state as a way of keeping her and her family reassured that her son wasn't suffering educational neglect. It may be that you can discuss the option of homeschooling with a mutually agreed-upon curriculum as an intermediate option.
That being said, if the kids are going back and forth from one house to the other, school can be a source of stability and reassurance... especially if there are big differences in expectations between homes. It can also be something for divorced parents to rally together around: helping your kids get their needs met in the context of school. And it could be that after a couple years of building trust and mutual support in that context you could try home or unschooling. Part of what made unschooling Ray possible is that he was in school for a few years while various family arrangements settled down. It wasn't exactly a good experience, but it did set the stage for more trust between the two families, and That was a good thing. In the long run, it made for better relationships between Ray and both his biological parents.
Supporting your kids' relationship with their mother (other beloved parent) is vital to unschooling. It's vital to them as people. Given a choice, it's better to support the relationship than to try and insist upon unschooling - because if you're undermining their relationship with their mom, you're not unschooling anyway; you have a mean, sneaky, secret emotional curriculum you're trying to implement.
Stop kidding yourself - it's not about legalities, it's personal: a grudge match for the hearts of your children. Don't do it! Don't go there! Don't add one jot to their suffering. Look for ways to conciliate, to be sweet and gentle with their wounded hearts. Keep them and their hearts in the forefront of your thoughts and don't try to hurt someone they love.
---Meredith
>> My wife, one who supports "The State", recently left me and gained custody of the children primarily by expressing to the judge (aka "The State") that my "radical" beliefs about Unschooling was detrimental to our children....************
I've unschooled across a divorce. It requires a certain amount of trust between the two families, so that's where I recommend you begin - what can you do so that your children's mother sees you as trustworthy where their education is concerned? That's more often a question women are faced with than men, so it could be helpful for you to seek out past threads where moms are asking how they can get more support from husbands who are reluctant, skeptical, or otherwise unsupportive of unschooling (I'm trying to think of "search" words - unsupportive comes up with this thread:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/69265
One of the things that helped us continue unschooling, and eventually allowed my stepson's mom to be more directly involved, was that I did more reporting than what was required by the state as a way of keeping her and her family reassured that her son wasn't suffering educational neglect. It may be that you can discuss the option of homeschooling with a mutually agreed-upon curriculum as an intermediate option.
That being said, if the kids are going back and forth from one house to the other, school can be a source of stability and reassurance... especially if there are big differences in expectations between homes. It can also be something for divorced parents to rally together around: helping your kids get their needs met in the context of school. And it could be that after a couple years of building trust and mutual support in that context you could try home or unschooling. Part of what made unschooling Ray possible is that he was in school for a few years while various family arrangements settled down. It wasn't exactly a good experience, but it did set the stage for more trust between the two families, and That was a good thing. In the long run, it made for better relationships between Ray and both his biological parents.
Supporting your kids' relationship with their mother (other beloved parent) is vital to unschooling. It's vital to them as people. Given a choice, it's better to support the relationship than to try and insist upon unschooling - because if you're undermining their relationship with their mom, you're not unschooling anyway; you have a mean, sneaky, secret emotional curriculum you're trying to implement.
>>> I am seeking support of any kind from anyone who is interested in helping a fellow unschooler defend our legal, and healthy, beliefs from intrusion by the government, and who would help defend against the interference of "The State" in our legal private lives.***************
Stop kidding yourself - it's not about legalities, it's personal: a grudge match for the hearts of your children. Don't do it! Don't go there! Don't add one jot to their suffering. Look for ways to conciliate, to be sweet and gentle with their wounded hearts. Keep them and their hearts in the forefront of your thoughts and don't try to hurt someone they love.
---Meredith
bhmjones
Considering the responses here, you might all be surprised to know that my children have never been disallowed from public school. In fact I discontinued posting here a few years back because not many of you supported my decision to allow my child back into public school. I consider the free choice of being in school to be just as much part of the Unschooling philosophy as the free choice not to attend public school. My daughter thrived in school absolutely because she wasn't forced to go. She knew she could come home any time she desired. She enjoyed the resources that the school provided that I simply couldn't provide at home. And of course I continued her unschooling while she was at home with the resources I could provide.
Also, I wanted to clarify, that I have zero contact with my children because of false allegations of abuse that my wife began claiming as a divorce and custody strategy. She has been provided 4 restraining orders against me while all of our life long family and friends have been standing beside me begging to be heard by the court to give testimony that I am the last man on earth that would be abusive to anyone, much less the wife and children I cherish the most on this earth. The court/s refuses to hear the testimony and simply continues issuing the restraining orders each time one expires. They do this because my wife told them I am a radical unschooler.
I have been reading your threads for years and have explained to many people the very same advice you guys are giving me about "working together" for the children, but it (working together) is indeed most difficult when your wife uses a restraining order to prevent any contact whatsoever.
I have been treated like some sort of alien by the courts because I'm the parent who wants my children to be happy and the parent who doesn't want them separated from the other parent. The more I advocate what is best for the children, the more I'm treated like I'm spewing nothing but poison.
I've come here most of all to advise you guys that this stuff is actually happening to any "peaceful parenting" parent unfortunate enough to get caught in the cross-hairs of the schooling industry.
Also, I wanted to clarify, that I have zero contact with my children because of false allegations of abuse that my wife began claiming as a divorce and custody strategy. She has been provided 4 restraining orders against me while all of our life long family and friends have been standing beside me begging to be heard by the court to give testimony that I am the last man on earth that would be abusive to anyone, much less the wife and children I cherish the most on this earth. The court/s refuses to hear the testimony and simply continues issuing the restraining orders each time one expires. They do this because my wife told them I am a radical unschooler.
I have been reading your threads for years and have explained to many people the very same advice you guys are giving me about "working together" for the children, but it (working together) is indeed most difficult when your wife uses a restraining order to prevent any contact whatsoever.
I have been treated like some sort of alien by the courts because I'm the parent who wants my children to be happy and the parent who doesn't want them separated from the other parent. The more I advocate what is best for the children, the more I'm treated like I'm spewing nothing but poison.
I've come here most of all to advise you guys that this stuff is actually happening to any "peaceful parenting" parent unfortunate enough to get caught in the cross-hairs of the schooling industry.
Jason Price
There's a lot of useful information missing here that could help people
help you. How old are the children? What is their exposure to unschooling?
How exactly is the custody arranged? Does your wife have full custody? If
so, do you have visitation rights? Why do you say that your wife "supports
the State"? What is the most important thing you want?
And out of my own curiosity... How did you come to married to a person with
such sharply different fundamental beliefs?
--
Jason Price
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
help you. How old are the children? What is their exposure to unschooling?
How exactly is the custody arranged? Does your wife have full custody? If
so, do you have visitation rights? Why do you say that your wife "supports
the State"? What is the most important thing you want?
And out of my own curiosity... How did you come to married to a person with
such sharply different fundamental beliefs?
--
Jason Price
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I discontinued posting here a few years back because not many of you supported my decision to allow my child back into public school-=-
False.
You wanted people here to say that having children in school was no impediment to unschooling. You wanted to be considered to be unschooling your children, although they were enrolled in school. That's what people were not supporting, if you're talking about this topic in 2009:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/48656
You wrote:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Robyn, as I understand it, unschooling is simply not forcing school on your
children.
Am I incorrect?
Brad Jones
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If unschooling was simply that, why have this discussion, or ANY discussions, conferences, articles, books? We could just leave a note that said "If your children say they don't want to go to school, and you say 'okay,' that's unschooling. If your kids want to to to school and you're not making them, that's unschooling."
Having a child in a private school ends when the child is enrolled in a public school, even if the parent was still willing to pay the tuition at the private school. Unschooling is a way of living without school, and it's involved, and works better when it's not tangled up with politics, but is focussed on learning and the child's enriched life.
You also wrote something sweet in this message, in that same year: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/61860
I'm sorry that things didn't go better for your family. I don't think there's anything we can do to help you with your legal situation, though. I'm sorry.
-=- The court/s refuses to hear the testimony and simply continues issuing the restraining orders each time one expires. They do this because my wife told them I am a radical unschooler.-=-
If the kids are in school, you are NOT a radical unschooler. Perhaps it would be better if you considered yourself the father of kids who are in school, too, and moved on in as positive a direction as you can. If you can't see the children right now, do other, positive, uplifting, self-improving things.
Being in on this discussion can't possibly be one of those, though. It's not good for you, and I don't think it's good for those who want to understand how unschooling can work well.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
False.
You wanted people here to say that having children in school was no impediment to unschooling. You wanted to be considered to be unschooling your children, although they were enrolled in school. That's what people were not supporting, if you're talking about this topic in 2009:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/48656
You wrote:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Robyn, as I understand it, unschooling is simply not forcing school on your
children.
Am I incorrect?
Brad Jones
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If unschooling was simply that, why have this discussion, or ANY discussions, conferences, articles, books? We could just leave a note that said "If your children say they don't want to go to school, and you say 'okay,' that's unschooling. If your kids want to to to school and you're not making them, that's unschooling."
Having a child in a private school ends when the child is enrolled in a public school, even if the parent was still willing to pay the tuition at the private school. Unschooling is a way of living without school, and it's involved, and works better when it's not tangled up with politics, but is focussed on learning and the child's enriched life.
You also wrote something sweet in this message, in that same year: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/61860
I'm sorry that things didn't go better for your family. I don't think there's anything we can do to help you with your legal situation, though. I'm sorry.
-=- The court/s refuses to hear the testimony and simply continues issuing the restraining orders each time one expires. They do this because my wife told them I am a radical unschooler.-=-
If the kids are in school, you are NOT a radical unschooler. Perhaps it would be better if you considered yourself the father of kids who are in school, too, and moved on in as positive a direction as you can. If you can't see the children right now, do other, positive, uplifting, self-improving things.
Being in on this discussion can't possibly be one of those, though. It's not good for you, and I don't think it's good for those who want to understand how unschooling can work well.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bhmjones
--- In [email protected], Jason Price <froomens@...> wrote:
>One is 12, and the other is 5 (yet being forced to attend public school as a baby sitter for my wife, despite the fact that he is on partial life support and has a traumatic brain and heart injury where he requires 24 hour hands on care. Also despite the fact that I have been his 24 hour bedside caretaker the entire length of his injuries, the court did not give that one iota of consideration simply because I am male as well as an unschooler..... they consider it "counter to the state's best interests")
> There's a lot of useful information missing here that could help people
> help you. How old are the children?
> What is their exposure to unschooling?Considering what unschooling is, not only my children are unschooled, but every single person on earth is simply due to the fact that all people are learning all the time, whether they acknowledge it or not..... not certain if this is the answer you are looking for, if not, please clarify.
> How exactly is the custody arranged?She was given full custody with no visitation on my part at all.
> Does your wife have full custody?Yes.
> IfNo.
> so, do you have visitation rights?
>Why do you say that your wife "supportsBecause once she switched her loyalty to her married co-worker who brainwashed her, he told her that govt knows best and she fell for it.
> the State"?
> What is the most important thing you want?For you guys to be aware that this thing is going on, not only in my own case but all around the world, and to do your best to not ever allow yourself to become a target of "The State" simply because you are an unschooler.
>She and I were on the same wavelength for a great majority of our 22 year relationship until she fell under the spell of another man while I was at home caring for our disabled child.
> And out of my own curiosity... How did you come to married to a person with
> such sharply different fundamental beliefs?
>
> --
> Jason Price
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Alex Polikowsky
And this is a testimony that how kids are usually better off in an intact relationship than with divorced parents.
Can it be that your wife blames your for your child's injuries?
You do bar have to answer this.
I was wondering how the court come to the conclusion that you are an unfit parent ?
And that maybe you made too much of a big deal about unschooling and whatever picture you painted was not something mainstream would get it.
I would not mention unschooling at all specially when kids were going to school!
Alex Polikowsky
Sent from my iPhone
Can it be that your wife blames your for your child's injuries?
You do bar have to answer this.
I was wondering how the court come to the conclusion that you are an unfit parent ?
And that maybe you made too much of a big deal about unschooling and whatever picture you painted was not something mainstream would get it.
I would not mention unschooling at all specially when kids were going to school!
Alex Polikowsky
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 16, 2013, at 8:32 PM, "bhmjones" <bhmjones@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In [email protected], Jason Price <froomens@...> wrote:
> >
> > There's a lot of useful information missing here that could help people
> > help you. How old are the children?
>
> One is 12, and the other is 5 (yet being forced to attend public school as a baby sitter for my wife, despite the fact that he is on partial life support and has a traumatic brain and heart injury where he requires 24 hour hands on care. Also despite the fact that I have been his 24 hour bedside caretaker the entire length of his injuries, the court did not give that one iota of consideration simply because I am male as well as an unschooler..... they consider it "counter to the state's best interests")
>
> > What is their exposure to unschooling?
>
> Considering what unschooling is, not only my children are unschooled, but every single person on earth is simply due to the fact that all people are learning all the time, whether they acknowledge it or not..... not certain if this is the answer you are looking for, if not, please clarify.
>
> > How exactly is the custody arranged?
>
> She was given full custody with no visitation on my part at all.
>
> > Does your wife have full custody?
>
> Yes.
>
> > If
> > so, do you have visitation rights?
>
> No.
>
> >Why do you say that your wife "supports
> > the State"?
>
> Because once she switched her loyalty to her married co-worker who brainwashed her, he told her that govt knows best and she fell for it.
>
> > What is the most important thing you want?
>
> For you guys to be aware that this thing is going on, not only in my own case but all around the world, and to do your best to not ever allow yourself to become a target of "The State" simply because you are an unschooler.
>
> >
> > And out of my own curiosity... How did you come to married to a person with
> > such sharply different fundamental beliefs?
>
> She and I were on the same wavelength for a great majority of our 22 year relationship until she fell under the spell of another man while I was at home caring for our disabled child.
>
> >
> > --
> > Jason Price
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alex Polikowsky
And as a Law School graduate I advise you to get a better lawyer and one tha can coach you to present the image of a normal, caring but not alternative
Father that agrees with school and all that.
Alex Polikowsky
Sent from my iPhone
Father that agrees with school and all that.
Alex Polikowsky
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 16, 2013, at 8:52 PM, Alex Polikowsky <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
> And this is a testimony that how kids are usually better off in an intact relationship than with divorced parents.
>
> Can it be that your wife blames your for your child's injuries?
> You do bar have to answer this.
> I was wondering how the court come to the conclusion that you are an unfit parent ?
> And that maybe you made too much of a big deal about unschooling and whatever picture you painted was not something mainstream would get it.
>
> I would not mention unschooling at all specially when kids were going to school!
>
> Alex Polikowsky
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Apr 16, 2013, at 8:32 PM, "bhmjones" <bhmjones@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > --- In [email protected], Jason Price <froomens@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > There's a lot of useful information missing here that could help people
> > > help you. How old are the children?
> >
> > One is 12, and the other is 5 (yet being forced to attend public school as a baby sitter for my wife, despite the fact that he is on partial life support and has a traumatic brain and heart injury where he requires 24 hour hands on care. Also despite the fact that I have been his 24 hour bedside caretaker the entire length of his injuries, the court did not give that one iota of consideration simply because I am male as well as an unschooler..... they consider it "counter to the state's best interests")
> >
> > > What is their exposure to unschooling?
> >
> > Considering what unschooling is, not only my children are unschooled, but every single person on earth is simply due to the fact that all people are learning all the time, whether they acknowledge it or not..... not certain if this is the answer you are looking for, if not, please clarify.
> >
> > > How exactly is the custody arranged?
> >
> > She was given full custody with no visitation on my part at all.
> >
> > > Does your wife have full custody?
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > > If
> > > so, do you have visitation rights?
> >
> > No.
> >
> > >Why do you say that your wife "supports
> > > the State"?
> >
> > Because once she switched her loyalty to her married co-worker who brainwashed her, he told her that govt knows best and she fell for it.
> >
> > > What is the most important thing you want?
> >
> > For you guys to be aware that this thing is going on, not only in my own case but all around the world, and to do your best to not ever allow yourself to become a target of "The State" simply because you are an unschooler.
> >
> > >
> > > And out of my own curiosity... How did you come to married to a person with
> > > such sharply different fundamental beliefs?
> >
> > She and I were on the same wavelength for a great majority of our 22 year relationship until she fell under the spell of another man while I was at home caring for our disabled child.
> >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jason Price
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alex Polikowsky
And as a mom I say that if you love your kids and want to be in their lives you do whatever it takes , meaning changing your attitude and image so you can have a chance to get to know your kids.
That us what matters . Not political beliefs or unschooling.
Alex Polikowsky
Sent from my iPhone
That us what matters . Not political beliefs or unschooling.
Alex Polikowsky
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 16, 2013, at 8:56 PM, Alex Polikowsky <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
> And as a Law School graduate I advise you to get a better lawyer and one tha can coach you to present the image of a normal, caring but not alternative
> Father that agrees with school and all that.
>
> Alex Polikowsky
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Apr 16, 2013, at 8:52 PM, Alex Polikowsky <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> > And this is a testimony that how kids are usually better off in an intact relationship than with divorced parents.
> >
> > Can it be that your wife blames your for your child's injuries?
> > You do bar have to answer this.
> > I was wondering how the court come to the conclusion that you are an unfit parent ?
> > And that maybe you made too much of a big deal about unschooling and whatever picture you painted was not something mainstream would get it.
> >
> > I would not mention unschooling at all specially when kids were going to school!
> >
> > Alex Polikowsky
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Apr 16, 2013, at 8:32 PM, "bhmjones" <bhmjones@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In [email protected], Jason Price <froomens@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > There's a lot of useful information missing here that could help people
> > > > help you. How old are the children?
> > >
> > > One is 12, and the other is 5 (yet being forced to attend public school as a baby sitter for my wife, despite the fact that he is on partial life support and has a traumatic brain and heart injury where he requires 24 hour hands on care. Also despite the fact that I have been his 24 hour bedside caretaker the entire length of his injuries, the court did not give that one iota of consideration simply because I am male as well as an unschooler..... they consider it "counter to the state's best interests")
> > >
> > > > What is their exposure to unschooling?
> > >
> > > Considering what unschooling is, not only my children are unschooled, but every single person on earth is simply due to the fact that all people are learning all the time, whether they acknowledge it or not..... not certain if this is the answer you are looking for, if not, please clarify.
> > >
> > > > How exactly is the custody arranged?
> > >
> > > She was given full custody with no visitation on my part at all.
> > >
> > > > Does your wife have full custody?
> > >
> > > Yes.
> > >
> > > > If
> > > > so, do you have visitation rights?
> > >
> > > No.
> > >
> > > >Why do you say that your wife "supports
> > > > the State"?
> > >
> > > Because once she switched her loyalty to her married co-worker who brainwashed her, he told her that govt knows best and she fell for it.
> > >
> > > > What is the most important thing you want?
> > >
> > > For you guys to be aware that this thing is going on, not only in my own case but all around the world, and to do your best to not ever allow yourself to become a target of "The State" simply because you are an unschooler.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > And out of my own curiosity... How did you come to married to a person with
> > > > such sharply different fundamental beliefs?
> > >
> > > She and I were on the same wavelength for a great majority of our 22 year relationship until she fell under the spell of another man while I was at home caring for our disabled child.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Jason Price
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Considering what unschooling is, not only my children are unschooled, but every single person on earth is simply due to the fact that all people are learning all the time, whether they acknowledge it or not..... not certain if this is the answer you are looking for, if not, please clarify.-=-
That's not the definition we use in this discussion.
Sandra
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That's not the definition we use in this discussion.
Sandra
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Jason Price
>Considering what unschooling is, not only my children are unschooled, butevery single person on earth is simply due to the fact that all people are
learning all the time, whether they acknowledge it or not..... not certain
if this is the answer you are looking for, if not, please clarify.
What is unschooling in this context? This description doesn't seem to match
what others are saying (a way of life without school) or what you were
saying (the freedom to learn [as they wish], i.e. Farenga's definition). I
also prefer Farenga's definition but here I don't understand what you are
saying unschooling is. If unschooling is the freedom to choose, then not
every single person on earth is unschooled. I agree all people are learning
all the time but that is more like a basic premise of unschooling, not the
definition of unschooling itself.
The answer I was looking for in particular was first whether or not your
kids have ever been home schooled, and second whether they are aware of the
concept of unschooling and its moral basis.
This gives me more questions. How do your children feel about you? How do
your children feel about the mother? How do your children feel about the
divorce? How do your children feel about the freedom to choose in education?
>For you guys to be aware that this thing is going on, not only in my owncase but all around the world, and to do your best to not ever allow
yourself to become a target of "The State" simply because you are an
unschooler.
Sorry, I meant regarding your children. What is the most important thing
you want for them? To have the freedom to choose whether or not to go to
school?
--
Jason Price
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 16, 2013, at 9:32 PM, bhmjones wrote:
Unschooling as defined for the purposes of this list is more than learning, more than natural learning. It's creating a family lifestyle that supports children as they make sense of the world by exploring what interests them.
Kids don't unschool. They thrive -- which includes learning -- in the environment that the parents create.
Unschooling is the environment the parents create.
Adults -- and others who've seized control of their own education or learning -- don't unschool. No one's creating a learning environment for them to explore their interests in. Adults explore, learn naturally, study, investigate, follow interests.
Joyce
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> Considering what unschooling is, not only my children are unschooled,What you're describing is plain old learning. Since part of "all the time" people are learning things they haven't chosen to you're not even differentiating forced memorization from the connections we naturally form without realizing it as we go about living.
> but every single person on earth is simply due to the fact that all people
> are learning all the time
Unschooling as defined for the purposes of this list is more than learning, more than natural learning. It's creating a family lifestyle that supports children as they make sense of the world by exploring what interests them.
Kids don't unschool. They thrive -- which includes learning -- in the environment that the parents create.
Unschooling is the environment the parents create.
Adults -- and others who've seized control of their own education or learning -- don't unschool. No one's creating a learning environment for them to explore their interests in. Adults explore, learn naturally, study, investigate, follow interests.
Joyce
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 16, 2013, at 9:32 PM, bhmjones wrote:
Things in your marriage were not as wonderful as you imagine. And this other man didn't come along with some magic to break a prefect marriage. He offered what your wife was missing in her life.
Perhaps she wasn't communicating what she was missing well. Perhaps she kept shoving her needs down because she felt guilty for asking you to give more. Perhaps you were too distracted and overwhelmed by your disabled child. It's understandable. You were doing something noble supporting your child, it would have been reasonable for you to expect her to emotionally support you and give you a break when she came home. But that's not how relationships run without working at it. It takes a lot of discussion and listening to the other to get to that level of mutual support.
Until you can see what part you played in the divorce, you can't begin to build bridges. Right now by focusing so much on your rights, how you've been wronged and your desire to unschool, you're building higher and higher walls. And the biggest losers are your kids.
Forget unschooling. Forget what she's doing wrong. Focus on your kids. Focus on spending quality time with them doing what they enjoy.
Joyce
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> She and I were on the same wavelength for a greatAs with most divorce cases, that's only half the story.
> majority of our 22 year relationship until she fell
> under the spell of another man while I was at
> home caring for our disabled child.
Things in your marriage were not as wonderful as you imagine. And this other man didn't come along with some magic to break a prefect marriage. He offered what your wife was missing in her life.
Perhaps she wasn't communicating what she was missing well. Perhaps she kept shoving her needs down because she felt guilty for asking you to give more. Perhaps you were too distracted and overwhelmed by your disabled child. It's understandable. You were doing something noble supporting your child, it would have been reasonable for you to expect her to emotionally support you and give you a break when she came home. But that's not how relationships run without working at it. It takes a lot of discussion and listening to the other to get to that level of mutual support.
Until you can see what part you played in the divorce, you can't begin to build bridges. Right now by focusing so much on your rights, how you've been wronged and your desire to unschool, you're building higher and higher walls. And the biggest losers are your kids.
Forget unschooling. Forget what she's doing wrong. Focus on your kids. Focus on spending quality time with them doing what they enjoy.
Joyce
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 16, 2013, at 8:52 PM, bhmjones wrote:
It's noble for people to fight the system to get something better for themselves. It's *not* noble if your kids feel a lack in their lives because of the situation between you and your wife. Don't even *think* about her part in it. You have power over your part. If they feel this fight you're having against the courts or your wife is having an effect on how well you're a father to them, then from their point of view you're prioritizing your ideals over their needs. It will make zero difference if you're fighting for what you believe is a better life for them if *they feel* you're not making the most of the life you have with them right now.
If you want to fight the system, make it separate and secondary to working with what you have right now to build a life with your children. Your children don't care about social injustice. They don't care about unschooling. They don't care if you're fighting for some ideal life you have in mind for them. As long as their very basic food and shelter needs are met, they first and foremost care about whether their parents love them for who they are. How well you're doing at that is not based on *your* perception but on *their* perception. If your fight with the State or their mom feels *to them* like your agenda for unschooling is more important than their immediate peace, security and family integrity, they'll feel you're putting your ideals ahead of them.
I know you perceive yourself as fighting the noble fight. But your kids won't ever see it that way while they're still emotionally dependent on their mother and father. Right now while they're young it's their perception of what you care about that's most important in how well you're doing as a father.
Right now your priority is being a father to them. But you're writing to us about other priorities. People here can help you work with what you have to be a better father, that will, in turn, help you get more to work with. But fighting the system is not only out of the scope of this list but would be counter to the goal which is helping parents be better parents to their kids.
Joyce
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> this stuff is actually happening to any "peaceful parenting"Innocent people sometimes get screwed by the system. But people who fight against the system because they don't like it rather than working with what is are more likely to get caught in the crosshairs.
> parent unfortunate enough to get caught in the cross-hairs
> of the schooling industry.
It's noble for people to fight the system to get something better for themselves. It's *not* noble if your kids feel a lack in their lives because of the situation between you and your wife. Don't even *think* about her part in it. You have power over your part. If they feel this fight you're having against the courts or your wife is having an effect on how well you're a father to them, then from their point of view you're prioritizing your ideals over their needs. It will make zero difference if you're fighting for what you believe is a better life for them if *they feel* you're not making the most of the life you have with them right now.
If you want to fight the system, make it separate and secondary to working with what you have right now to build a life with your children. Your children don't care about social injustice. They don't care about unschooling. They don't care if you're fighting for some ideal life you have in mind for them. As long as their very basic food and shelter needs are met, they first and foremost care about whether their parents love them for who they are. How well you're doing at that is not based on *your* perception but on *their* perception. If your fight with the State or their mom feels *to them* like your agenda for unschooling is more important than their immediate peace, security and family integrity, they'll feel you're putting your ideals ahead of them.
I know you perceive yourself as fighting the noble fight. But your kids won't ever see it that way while they're still emotionally dependent on their mother and father. Right now while they're young it's their perception of what you care about that's most important in how well you're doing as a father.
Right now your priority is being a father to them. But you're writing to us about other priorities. People here can help you work with what you have to be a better father, that will, in turn, help you get more to work with. But fighting the system is not only out of the scope of this list but would be counter to the goal which is helping parents be better parents to their kids.
Joyce
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Sandra Dodd
-=- every single person on earth is simply due to the fact that all people are learning all the time-=-
All people are NOT learning all the time. It sounds good, but it's not true.
It's possible for someone's "self-talk" to be harsh and limiting and self-defensive to the point that they reject any and all input, they revile any and all experience, they dismiss any and all suggestions, they declare to themselves that the world is STUPID while they are SMART and then, before long... they're just grumping along to the grave.
Brad, I don't think you're learning anything from this discussion group. I don't think you ever have. I think you might be using your membership here as evidence that you are a wild outlaw of an unschooler, but we've been telling you since at least 2009 that we don't think you understand at all what unschooling is.
Sandra
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All people are NOT learning all the time. It sounds good, but it's not true.
It's possible for someone's "self-talk" to be harsh and limiting and self-defensive to the point that they reject any and all input, they revile any and all experience, they dismiss any and all suggestions, they declare to themselves that the world is STUPID while they are SMART and then, before long... they're just grumping along to the grave.
Brad, I don't think you're learning anything from this discussion group. I don't think you ever have. I think you might be using your membership here as evidence that you are a wild outlaw of an unschooler, but we've been telling you since at least 2009 that we don't think you understand at all what unschooling is.
Sandra
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bhmjones
You may be correct. But I would ask you to ask yourself if there is any possibility you could be jumping to the wrong conclusions.
>________________________________[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
>To: [email protected]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 9:45 AM
>Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Need advice and support
>
>
>
>
>-=- every single person on earth is simply due to the fact that all people are learning all the time-=-
>
>All people are NOT learning all the time. It sounds good, but it's not true.
>
>It's possible for someone's "self-talk" to be harsh and limiting and self-defensive to the point that they reject any and all input, they revile any and all experience, they dismiss any and all suggestions, they declare to themselves that the world is STUPID while they are SMART and then, before long... they're just grumping along to the grave.
>
>Brad, I don't think you're learning anything from this discussion group. I don't think you ever have. I think you might be using your membership here as evidence that you are a wild outlaw of an unschooler, but we've been telling you since at least 2009 that we don't think you understand at all what unschooling is.
>
>Sandra
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
Meredith
"bhmjones" <bhmjones@...> wrote:
Er, no, that's not anything like enough to get a restraining order, unless you're warping the idea of radical unschooling pretty severely. Oh, wait...
**************
Not even close. I shudder to think what you must be telling people "radical unschooling" is... probably set home education laws back twenty years wherever you live.
Difficult but not impossible - and my initial advice still stands. Do Everything In Your Power to make yourself trustworthy to your Ex. Provide ample financial assistance. If getting therapy would reassure her, do it. If going on some kind of medication would reassure her, do it. Absolutely do not fight her over Anything - doing so will only hurt your children more. Make all your choices with the intent to support your children's mother and her relationship with her children.
No, I don't think that's true at all. You've come here to spew spite about your Ex. I have plenty of reason to spew spite... but it Doesn't Help Anything. What will help your children is doing everything you can to support their mom, no matter how much you disagree with her.
---Meredith
>The court/s refuses to hear the testimony and simply continues issuing the restraining orders each time one expires. They do this because my wife told them I am a radical unschooler.**************
Er, no, that's not anything like enough to get a restraining order, unless you're warping the idea of radical unschooling pretty severely. Oh, wait...
>>not only my children are unschooled, but everysingle person on earth is simply due to the fact that all people are learning all the time
**************
Not even close. I shudder to think what you must be telling people "radical unschooling" is... probably set home education laws back twenty years wherever you live.
>>it (working together) is indeed most difficult when your wife uses a restraining order to prevent any contact whatsoever.*************
Difficult but not impossible - and my initial advice still stands. Do Everything In Your Power to make yourself trustworthy to your Ex. Provide ample financial assistance. If getting therapy would reassure her, do it. If going on some kind of medication would reassure her, do it. Absolutely do not fight her over Anything - doing so will only hurt your children more. Make all your choices with the intent to support your children's mother and her relationship with her children.
> I've come here most of all to advise you guys that this stuff is actually happening to any "peaceful parenting" parent unfortunate enough to get caught in the cross-hairs of the schooling industry.******************
No, I don't think that's true at all. You've come here to spew spite about your Ex. I have plenty of reason to spew spite... but it Doesn't Help Anything. What will help your children is doing everything you can to support their mom, no matter how much you disagree with her.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
> I've come here most of all to advise you guys that this stuff is actually happening to any "peaceful parenting" parent unfortunate enough to get caught in the cross-hairs of the schooling industry.******************
Meredith wrote: -=-No, I don't think that's true at all. You've come here to spew spite about your Ex. I have plenty of reason to spew spite... but it Doesn't Help Anything. What will help your children is doing everything you can to support their mom, no matter how much you disagree with her. -=-
Yes.
That stuff (restraining order) is NOT happening to any peaceful parenting parent, only the ones who have REALLY pissed someone off. And it was NOT done by "the schooling industry." It was done (I'm assuming) by the judicial branch of the state of Louisians. They probably really LOVE peaceful parents. I doubt they issue restraining orders against people for being peaceful parents.
So for everyone else reading this, things can go way, way wrong when politics come before children, and when odd personal philosophy comes before being a good partner to spouses and children.
Sandra
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 17, 2013, at 12:54 PM, bhmjones wrote:
We're assembling the pieces you're providing into a picture then responding to that picture. Whether that picture accurately reflects what's happening in your life is up to you. If we're missing the mark, if you want more targeted answers, they will come when you choose words and ideas that paint a more accurate picture.
You've told us a great deal about your desire to unschool and all the people getting in your way. You've given us vague scary statements about the evils of The State. But you haven't asked anyone advice on how you can be the best dad you can be despite your situation. That says a great deal about what's important to you whether you believe what it says or not.
Joyce
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> But I would ask you to ask yourself if there is any possibilityPeople are responding to the words you're posting. And to the meta-message you're sending through your word choice, what you choose to write about and what you don't choose to write about. People reveal far more than what they believe that way.
> you could be jumping to the wrong conclusions
We're assembling the pieces you're providing into a picture then responding to that picture. Whether that picture accurately reflects what's happening in your life is up to you. If we're missing the mark, if you want more targeted answers, they will come when you choose words and ideas that paint a more accurate picture.
You've told us a great deal about your desire to unschool and all the people getting in your way. You've given us vague scary statements about the evils of The State. But you haven't asked anyone advice on how you can be the best dad you can be despite your situation. That says a great deal about what's important to you whether you believe what it says or not.
Joyce
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Sandra Dodd
-=-But I would ask you to ask yourself if there is any possibility you could be jumping to the wrong conclusions.-=-
About this? -=->Brad, I don't think you're learning anything from this discussion group. I don't think you ever have. I think you might be using your membership here as evidence that you are a wild outlaw of an unschooler, but we've been telling you since at least 2009 that we don't think you understand at all what unschooling is. -=-
I went back and re-read your posts before, and some of the responses. I've read everything you've posted in this topic, and the side mail. I didn't jump. I walked carefully, step by step.
Do you think I jumped to the wrong conclusiong about this?
-=->It's possible for someone's "self-talk" to be harsh and limiting and self-defensive to the point that they reject any and all input, they revile any and all experience, they dismiss any and all suggestions, they declare to themselves that the world is STUPID while they are SMART and then, before long... they're just grumping along to the grave.-=-
When I was young, I thought everyone must be learning all the time, but I was looking at the world through learning-colored glasses, through my own curiosity and enthusiasm. Meeting other people, dull-eyed people, cynical people, and knowing them for decades, I saw that really for some people it wasn't just a slump or a phase. For some people it was calcification born of resistance.
I don't think I've jumped to any conclusions, and I don't think I'm wrong about your definition of unschooling being as wrong as any has ever been, and more wrong than most.
Sandra
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About this? -=->Brad, I don't think you're learning anything from this discussion group. I don't think you ever have. I think you might be using your membership here as evidence that you are a wild outlaw of an unschooler, but we've been telling you since at least 2009 that we don't think you understand at all what unschooling is. -=-
I went back and re-read your posts before, and some of the responses. I've read everything you've posted in this topic, and the side mail. I didn't jump. I walked carefully, step by step.
Do you think I jumped to the wrong conclusiong about this?
-=->It's possible for someone's "self-talk" to be harsh and limiting and self-defensive to the point that they reject any and all input, they revile any and all experience, they dismiss any and all suggestions, they declare to themselves that the world is STUPID while they are SMART and then, before long... they're just grumping along to the grave.-=-
When I was young, I thought everyone must be learning all the time, but I was looking at the world through learning-colored glasses, through my own curiosity and enthusiasm. Meeting other people, dull-eyed people, cynical people, and knowing them for decades, I saw that really for some people it wasn't just a slump or a phase. For some people it was calcification born of resistance.
I don't think I've jumped to any conclusions, and I don't think I'm wrong about your definition of unschooling being as wrong as any has ever been, and more wrong than most.
Sandra
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bhmjones
Fair enough.
------------------------------
------------------------------
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 1:45 PM CDT Sandra Dodd wrote:
>-=-But I would ask you to ask yourself if there is any possibility you could be jumping to the wrong conclusions.-=-
>
>About this? -=->Brad, I don't think you're learning anything from this discussion group. I don't think you ever have. I think you might be using your membership here as evidence that you are a wild outlaw of an unschooler, but we've been telling you since at least 2009 that we don't think you understand at all what unschooling is. -=-
>
>I went back and re-read your posts before, and some of the responses. I've read everything you've posted in this topic, and the side mail. I didn't jump. I walked carefully, step by step.
>
>Do you think I jumped to the wrong conclusiong about this?
>-=->It's possible for someone's "self-talk" to be harsh and limiting and self-defensive to the point that they reject any and all input, they revile any and all experience, they dismiss any and all suggestions, they declare to themselves that the world is STUPID while they are SMART and then, before long... they're just grumping along to the grave.-=-
>
>When I was young, I thought everyone must be learning all the time, but I was looking at the world through learning-colored glasses, through my own curiosity and enthusiasm. Meeting other people, dull-eyed people, cynical people, and knowing them for decades, I saw that really for some people it wasn't just a slump or a phase. For some people it was calcification born of resistance.
>
>I don't think I've jumped to any conclusions, and I don't think I'm wrong about your definition of unschooling being as wrong as any has ever been, and more wrong than most.
>
>Sandra
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Tori Otero
Sandra wrote
-=- All people are NOT learning all the time. It sounds good, but it's not
true. -=-
I would agree with this, learning can stop for lots of reasons many are
nothing to do with experiences at school or the system. Learning can make
some people feel bad, initially, they can be overwhelmed with guilt and be
paralysed so that the phrase 'when you know better, do better' doesn't
work. You have to be able to tolerate knowing better without letting it
turn into 'I'm stupid' or 'I'm bad' before you can do better.
-=- possible for someone's "self-talk" to be harsh and limiting and
self-defensive to the point that they reject any and all input, they revile
any and all experience, they dismiss any and all suggestions, they declare
to themselves that the world is STUPID while they are SMART and then,
before long... they're just grumping along to the grave. -=-
huge amounts of self criticism, feelings of shame and thoughts that
reinforce an 'I'm stupid' or 'I'm bad' tape, that stems from childhood
experiences of relationships which can be internalized. People view
themselves as stupid and everyone else as clever, sorted, well, they
may seek more input, regardless of quality and more reassurance. They may
dismiss others experiences because it causes internal conflict or they may
take on bits from here, bits from there in a indiscriminate and chaotic
way and end up with a huge mess. They may take on too many suggestions and
ideas from different places. They may end up with others being concerned
about safeguarding children. Slowing things down helps as does therapy.
-=- All people are NOT learning all the time. It sounds good, but it's not
true. -=-
I would agree with this, learning can stop for lots of reasons many are
nothing to do with experiences at school or the system. Learning can make
some people feel bad, initially, they can be overwhelmed with guilt and be
paralysed so that the phrase 'when you know better, do better' doesn't
work. You have to be able to tolerate knowing better without letting it
turn into 'I'm stupid' or 'I'm bad' before you can do better.
-=- possible for someone's "self-talk" to be harsh and limiting and
self-defensive to the point that they reject any and all input, they revile
any and all experience, they dismiss any and all suggestions, they declare
to themselves that the world is STUPID while they are SMART and then,
before long... they're just grumping along to the grave. -=-
huge amounts of self criticism, feelings of shame and thoughts that
reinforce an 'I'm stupid' or 'I'm bad' tape, that stems from childhood
experiences of relationships which can be internalized. People view
themselves as stupid and everyone else as clever, sorted, well, they
may seek more input, regardless of quality and more reassurance. They may
dismiss others experiences because it causes internal conflict or they may
take on bits from here, bits from there in a indiscriminate and chaotic
way and end up with a huge mess. They may take on too many suggestions and
ideas from different places. They may end up with others being concerned
about safeguarding children. Slowing things down helps as does therapy.
On Wednesday, 17 April 2013, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> **
>
>
> -=-But I would ask you to ask yourself if there is any possibility you
> could be jumping to the wrong conclusions.-=-
>
> About this? -=->Brad, I don't think you're learning anything from this
> discussion group. I don't think you ever have. I think you might be using
> your membership here as evidence that you are a wild outlaw of an
> unschooler, but we've been telling you since at least 2009 that we don't
> think you understand at all what unschooling is. -=-
>
> I went back and re-read your posts before, and some of the responses. I've
> read everything you've posted in this topic, and the side mail. I didn't
> jump. I walked carefully, step by step.
>
> Do you think I jumped to the wrong conclusiong about this?
> -=->It's possible for someone's "self-talk" to be harsh and limiting and
> self-defensive to the point that they reject any and all input, they revile
> any and all experience, they dismiss any and all suggestions, they declare
> to themselves that the world is STUPID while they are SMART and then,
> before long... they're just grumping along to the grave.-=-
>
> When I was young, I thought everyone must be learning all the time, but I
> was looking at the world through learning-colored glasses, through my own
> curiosity and enthusiasm. Meeting other people, dull-eyed people, cynical
> people, and knowing them for decades, I saw that really for some people it
> wasn't just a slump or a phase. For some people it was calcification born
> of resistance.
>
> I don't think I've jumped to any conclusions, and I don't think I'm wrong
> about your definition of unschooling being as wrong as any has ever been,
> and more wrong than most.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Fair enough.-=-
We were being fair from the beginning.
In an e-mail I've deleted, Brad Jones was insulting to Joyce (who saw it, as a moderator) and also wrote this, to all of us:
"If you all would rather bury your head in the sand than to
be warned about actual facts, then so be it. I'll just go
elsewhere. "
He was still on the list, so I banned him. Anyone who manages an unschooling discussion might want to be on the lookout. I don't think there's anything to be gained.
Thank you, those who responded with useful ideas for him. Others here surely benefitted by running some of those thoughts through their own minds.
Sandra
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We were being fair from the beginning.
In an e-mail I've deleted, Brad Jones was insulting to Joyce (who saw it, as a moderator) and also wrote this, to all of us:
"If you all would rather bury your head in the sand than to
be warned about actual facts, then so be it. I'll just go
elsewhere. "
He was still on the list, so I banned him. Anyone who manages an unschooling discussion might want to be on the lookout. I don't think there's anything to be gained.
Thank you, those who responded with useful ideas for him. Others here surely benefitted by running some of those thoughts through their own minds.
Sandra
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Joyce Fetteroll
> "If you all would rather bury your head in the sand than toSo why was the thread titled "Need advice and support"?
> be warned about actual facts, then so be it. I'll just go
> elsewhere. "
I think this was an extreme example of thinking a solution you've settled on and the goal as being one and the same.
Maybe his original goal was a more peaceful life for his kids. Once he discovered (this idea he was calling) unschooling, the new goal became getting the family to fit into the unschooling mold. In the process he lost sight of his original goal and far worse happened.
This is where many people get stuck. Like the diapering. Is the goal/problem to get a diaper on the child? Or is that the solution you've decided is the one and only way to get what you need?
Is getting kids to eat a family meal together the problem? Or the solution?
If buying $70 worth of books for a 2 yo is the solution, what is the problem it's a solution to? (For those who are on the Radical Unschooling Facebook page.)
Back up. Back way up. What's the worst that will happen if you can't get this person/the family to comply with your solution?
What *other* ways are there to get what you want and need? Break the problem down into smaller problems. Give yourself lots of options to choose from. Be flexible. Don't look for one solution that will fix it all for all time.
Don't get so stuck on your solution that you lose sight of the bigger picture.
Joyce
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