newbie with questions
pearl.earring35
I am just beginning to learn about unschooling. This list has been tremendously helpful already, since I joined 2 months ago.
I have a 13 1/2 year old son. We took him out of public school right before he turned 9 (at the end of second grade). I also have a 7 year old son and a 1 1/2 year old son.
Somewhere along the way of this homeschooling journey, I started to worry about curriculum and meeting or exceeding the expectations placed upon public school children. I began doing many things based upon the fear of failure and/or judgement, followed by lengthy breaks (because it is exhausting to try to MAKE children do things and it doesn't feel good), followed by determination to get it together and "do school", followed by another break, and so on and so on. Unfortunately, I have also been a controlling parent (just like my parents and my husband's parents....sigh). I feel I have probably ruined many of my sons' budding interests. I have SO many regrets. UGH! This is not what I envisioned homeschool life would be. I want to change!!!
I could go on (and on).
What I really want to know is....are there any families on this list that haven't unschooled from the beginning and do you feel things turned around for your teen? Did they begin to self-direct their learning and have a passion for it again? In other words, is there hope for us?
Also, what I was doing was NOT working and I just didn't know what to do, so we just didn't DO anything (schoolish, that is) since before Christmas and now we are going to visit my family and my in-laws and I KNOW there will be quite a few questions:
for my 13 year old...."Are you doing Algebra yet?" (my husband has been asking that one, too) No. Although he is almost there, yet still behind public school (in many areas, although most likely ahead in others), largely because math has been such a battle between us, even though he has mathematical interests and talent, because I have been going about everything the wrong way;
for my 7 year old...."Can you read yet?" Yes. He CAN read but does he WANT to? No. There was a LOT of pressure from family members about my middle son learning to read, beginning at the age of 5! (he just wasn't that interested in it, so I waited, but the pressure built as he grew older) so I really pushed him the first part of this school year, resulting in many tears for both of us (one of the reasons, I know there has to be another way!).
SO....I am feeling guilty about the lack of "school" we have been doing recently, plus there is the constant nagging in the back of my mind, "Am I doing enough?", "Am I doing too much?". I am afraid that this shows as my mother-in-law quizzes us and gives her the wrong impression. I am fairly confident they will learn what they need, when they need it, but how do I explain that to my family (mother-in-law, mostly), when I don't even fully understand what we are doing myself (and still have a few concerns)? How can I explain this philosophy of learning to someone that doesn't have the inclination to read volumes on it? How do you answer these questions and others like them? I could use some words :).
.....and thank-you for not watering down answers to people's questions. This list is very stimulating and challenging. It's a breath of fresh air!
I have a 13 1/2 year old son. We took him out of public school right before he turned 9 (at the end of second grade). I also have a 7 year old son and a 1 1/2 year old son.
Somewhere along the way of this homeschooling journey, I started to worry about curriculum and meeting or exceeding the expectations placed upon public school children. I began doing many things based upon the fear of failure and/or judgement, followed by lengthy breaks (because it is exhausting to try to MAKE children do things and it doesn't feel good), followed by determination to get it together and "do school", followed by another break, and so on and so on. Unfortunately, I have also been a controlling parent (just like my parents and my husband's parents....sigh). I feel I have probably ruined many of my sons' budding interests. I have SO many regrets. UGH! This is not what I envisioned homeschool life would be. I want to change!!!
I could go on (and on).
What I really want to know is....are there any families on this list that haven't unschooled from the beginning and do you feel things turned around for your teen? Did they begin to self-direct their learning and have a passion for it again? In other words, is there hope for us?
Also, what I was doing was NOT working and I just didn't know what to do, so we just didn't DO anything (schoolish, that is) since before Christmas and now we are going to visit my family and my in-laws and I KNOW there will be quite a few questions:
for my 13 year old...."Are you doing Algebra yet?" (my husband has been asking that one, too) No. Although he is almost there, yet still behind public school (in many areas, although most likely ahead in others), largely because math has been such a battle between us, even though he has mathematical interests and talent, because I have been going about everything the wrong way;
for my 7 year old...."Can you read yet?" Yes. He CAN read but does he WANT to? No. There was a LOT of pressure from family members about my middle son learning to read, beginning at the age of 5! (he just wasn't that interested in it, so I waited, but the pressure built as he grew older) so I really pushed him the first part of this school year, resulting in many tears for both of us (one of the reasons, I know there has to be another way!).
SO....I am feeling guilty about the lack of "school" we have been doing recently, plus there is the constant nagging in the back of my mind, "Am I doing enough?", "Am I doing too much?". I am afraid that this shows as my mother-in-law quizzes us and gives her the wrong impression. I am fairly confident they will learn what they need, when they need it, but how do I explain that to my family (mother-in-law, mostly), when I don't even fully understand what we are doing myself (and still have a few concerns)? How can I explain this philosophy of learning to someone that doesn't have the inclination to read volumes on it? How do you answer these questions and others like them? I could use some words :).
.....and thank-you for not watering down answers to people's questions. This list is very stimulating and challenging. It's a breath of fresh air!
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 28, 2013, at 5:16 PM, pearl.earring35 wrote:
It seems the purpose of the question is to relieve you of guilt. If someone says yes, then you don't have to feel guilty for (supposedly) ruining him. Which could backfire. If no one responds that their child recovered it would increase your guilty feelings, increase the sense of hopelessness.
Guilt is a useful feeling to wake us up to a need to change. But nurtured beyond that, it can be paralyzing.
It's not about you. It's about him.
What if you had just adopted him? What if you could chalk up any difficulties to someone else and some other environment? What if you could set down all the guilt you feel and start with the person he is right now? What would you do?
Interest comes first. And some people may never feel passion. They may be serially interested in many things. They may be social which to a schooled brain will look like doing nothing.
Interest. That's what drives learning. What's he interested in? How can you give him what he needs to explore? What can you add to his life that is likely to interest him? Think outside the school box! You may need to think "tractor pulls" and "rap music" rather than "natural history museums." ;-)
Unschooling is about creating an environment tailored to the child that allows him to explore what interests him and gives him ready access to new ideas that might interest to him.
The unschooling environment you create is both physical and emotional. The physical part is bringing to them and taking them to what interests them or might interest them. The emotional part is being connected to them, being interested in their interest, being available to them, being supportive, being interested in life yourself.
Search in the archives for threads with "bean dip" in them. Then try "open classroom". Those should give you ways to address the questions. Two things you don't want to do is get defensive or try to get them to agree with what you're doing. See their questions as coming from a place of love and concern. They don't understand what you're doing and they fear you don't either. If you remain confident they're less likely to question.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Did they begin to self-direct their learning and have aWhat if no one says yes? What will you do? Write him off?
> passion for it again? In other words, is there hope for us?
It seems the purpose of the question is to relieve you of guilt. If someone says yes, then you don't have to feel guilty for (supposedly) ruining him. Which could backfire. If no one responds that their child recovered it would increase your guilty feelings, increase the sense of hopelessness.
Guilt is a useful feeling to wake us up to a need to change. But nurtured beyond that, it can be paralyzing.
It's not about you. It's about him.
What if you had just adopted him? What if you could chalk up any difficulties to someone else and some other environment? What if you could set down all the guilt you feel and start with the person he is right now? What would you do?
> Did they begin to self-direct their learning and have a passion for it again?Thinking of it as self-directing his learning will build a false picture of what unschooling might look like for your son. Putting self directing first and passion second is also going to build a problematic image.
Interest comes first. And some people may never feel passion. They may be serially interested in many things. They may be social which to a schooled brain will look like doing nothing.
Interest. That's what drives learning. What's he interested in? How can you give him what he needs to explore? What can you add to his life that is likely to interest him? Think outside the school box! You may need to think "tractor pulls" and "rap music" rather than "natural history museums." ;-)
> what I was doing was NOT working and I just didn't knowWhat DID you do?
> what to do, so we just didn't DO anything (schoolish, that is)
Unschooling is about creating an environment tailored to the child that allows him to explore what interests him and gives him ready access to new ideas that might interest to him.
The unschooling environment you create is both physical and emotional. The physical part is bringing to them and taking them to what interests them or might interest them. The emotional part is being connected to them, being interested in their interest, being available to them, being supportive, being interested in life yourself.
> now we are going to visit my family and my in-laws and I KNOW there will be quite a few questionsThe more you can confidently respond to succinctly then redirect the better.
Search in the archives for threads with "bean dip" in them. Then try "open classroom". Those should give you ways to address the questions. Two things you don't want to do is get defensive or try to get them to agree with what you're doing. See their questions as coming from a place of love and concern. They don't understand what you're doing and they fear you don't either. If you remain confident they're less likely to question.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Interest comes first. And some people may never feel passion. They may be serially interested in many things. They may be social which to a schooled brain will look like doing nothing.-=-
"May be social" might mean that of Gardner's intelligences, a child might have strengths in the interpersonal area�intuitive about other people's moods, behaviors, actions, relationships.
-=-Unschooling is about creating an environment tailored to the child that allows him to explore what interests him and gives him ready access to new ideas that might interest to him.-=-
And tailored to the child, but not too close-fitting. :-)
When Holly's main interest was clothing for a while, I could have presented her with nothing outside of that, and only brought to her attention things that had to do with cloth or clothes. But she was interested in things beyond clothing, and clothing has cultural and historical context, so it can connect to many other things�prosperity (more cloth in times of peace, less during depressions, wars...), class (who dresses how, and when?), religions (sleeveless dresses, short skirts, different body parts can't be shown in different times and places; India, it's legs, other places torso)...
A kid interested in American football will know about the materials of helmets at different times, and the sports injuries that led to changes in uniforma and padding and rules, and the geography and politics of who plays where and when, and what the playing surfaces are and might require for maintenance, and who referees, and how and why, and what body types are good for which positions (fantasy football could be a whole 'nother jumping off place for learning and connections)...
The parents should be looking out for casual connections, and not to bring every one to the child's attention, but to begin to learn (for the parents' sake, for deschooling and nurturing curiosity) about how many connections there are, and how many directions each can lead.
It's the "life" part, in this (by Joyce): "The emotional part is being connected to them, being interested in their interest, being available to them, being supportive, being interested in life yourself."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"May be social" might mean that of Gardner's intelligences, a child might have strengths in the interpersonal area�intuitive about other people's moods, behaviors, actions, relationships.
-=-Unschooling is about creating an environment tailored to the child that allows him to explore what interests him and gives him ready access to new ideas that might interest to him.-=-
And tailored to the child, but not too close-fitting. :-)
When Holly's main interest was clothing for a while, I could have presented her with nothing outside of that, and only brought to her attention things that had to do with cloth or clothes. But she was interested in things beyond clothing, and clothing has cultural and historical context, so it can connect to many other things�prosperity (more cloth in times of peace, less during depressions, wars...), class (who dresses how, and when?), religions (sleeveless dresses, short skirts, different body parts can't be shown in different times and places; India, it's legs, other places torso)...
A kid interested in American football will know about the materials of helmets at different times, and the sports injuries that led to changes in uniforma and padding and rules, and the geography and politics of who plays where and when, and what the playing surfaces are and might require for maintenance, and who referees, and how and why, and what body types are good for which positions (fantasy football could be a whole 'nother jumping off place for learning and connections)...
The parents should be looking out for casual connections, and not to bring every one to the child's attention, but to begin to learn (for the parents' sake, for deschooling and nurturing curiosity) about how many connections there are, and how many directions each can lead.
It's the "life" part, in this (by Joyce): "The emotional part is being connected to them, being interested in their interest, being available to them, being supportive, being interested in life yourself."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- How can I explain this philosophy of learning to someone that doesn't have the inclination to read volumes on it? How do you answer these questions and others like them? I could use some words :).-=-
There are some ideas here:
http://sandradodd.com/response
It will be a problem, because you and your husband don't have a common vision (if he's wanting algebra) and if you're still very vague on reading ("There was a LOT of pressure from family members about my middle son learning to read, beginning at the age of 5! (he just wasn't that interested in it, so I waited"�reading doesn't come from having an interest in it, and then being taught) and other aspects.
You could say that what you were doing presented problems and you're researching some new directions.
Maybe you could write down some of their concerns, so you show that you're listening, and tell them you'll definitely consider those things.
Being inconsistent in your school-at-home career is likely to have caused your children to have less faith in your knowlege and commitment than is ideal, so don't be surprised if deschooling takes longer. The first five months or so will probably seem to them just like another lull before the curriculum comes out again. If that turns out to be the case, unschooling will never have had a chance at all. Your deschooling period can't start until they're pretty confident that they're not in the last days of a fallow season before the lessons recommence. As old as your child is, it's going to be difficult for your husband to have confidence in your new plan, too, so you might expect some turbulence in your deschooling. The problem is that deschooling needs happy peace and quiet.
This might help your husband feel better, and if he doesn't want to read, maybe he will listen to some recordings in the car or somewhere he's otherwise busy anyway. http://sandradodd.com/math/
http://sandradodd.com/listen
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There are some ideas here:
http://sandradodd.com/response
It will be a problem, because you and your husband don't have a common vision (if he's wanting algebra) and if you're still very vague on reading ("There was a LOT of pressure from family members about my middle son learning to read, beginning at the age of 5! (he just wasn't that interested in it, so I waited"�reading doesn't come from having an interest in it, and then being taught) and other aspects.
You could say that what you were doing presented problems and you're researching some new directions.
Maybe you could write down some of their concerns, so you show that you're listening, and tell them you'll definitely consider those things.
Being inconsistent in your school-at-home career is likely to have caused your children to have less faith in your knowlege and commitment than is ideal, so don't be surprised if deschooling takes longer. The first five months or so will probably seem to them just like another lull before the curriculum comes out again. If that turns out to be the case, unschooling will never have had a chance at all. Your deschooling period can't start until they're pretty confident that they're not in the last days of a fallow season before the lessons recommence. As old as your child is, it's going to be difficult for your husband to have confidence in your new plan, too, so you might expect some turbulence in your deschooling. The problem is that deschooling needs happy peace and quiet.
This might help your husband feel better, and if he doesn't want to read, maybe he will listen to some recordings in the car or somewhere he's otherwise busy anyway. http://sandradodd.com/math/
http://sandradodd.com/listen
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
CASS KOTRBA
-=-This might help your husband feel better, and if he doesn't want to read, maybe he will listen to some recordings in the car or somewhere he's otherwise busy anyway-=-
I like to forward posts from this list to my husband when they are relating to a subject I know he has nervousness or mixed feelings about. At first he said he did not have time to read them but I suggested maybe he could read off of his phone while he is in the bathroom (he likes to read in there anyway). He laughed and agreed that he could do that. I try to send a minimal amount of stuff and usually the more succinct posts so that he does not get overwhelmed and start shutting down. I do the same thing with my parents, who will be spending some time with us over the summer. Well, I haven't asked them to read my emails on the toilet but I am hoping they will have a basic understanding of unschooling before they come to stay with us. For them I like to forward posts that explain how learning occurs naturally and if there are links to scientific studies that is the best so that they can see the "evidence" for themselves. The real evidence will be in seeing how the kids and our family dynamic have changed.
-Cass
-Cass
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I like to forward posts from this list to my husband when they are relating to a subject I know he has nervousness or mixed feelings about. At first he said he did not have time to read them but I suggested maybe he could read off of his phone while he is in the bathroom (he likes to read in there anyway). He laughed and agreed that he could do that. I try to send a minimal amount of stuff and usually the more succinct posts so that he does not get overwhelmed and start shutting down. I do the same thing with my parents, who will be spending some time with us over the summer. Well, I haven't asked them to read my emails on the toilet but I am hoping they will have a basic understanding of unschooling before they come to stay with us. For them I like to forward posts that explain how learning occurs naturally and if there are links to scientific studies that is the best so that they can see the "evidence" for themselves. The real evidence will be in seeing how the kids and our family dynamic have changed.
-Cass
-Cass
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"pearl.earring35" <pearl.earring35@...> wrote:
My stepson, Ray, went through homeschooling across two households, then public school living with his bio-mom, then unschooling living with us. I think unschooling saved his life. It was never perfectly radical unschooling because his bio mom didn't leave the picture entirely and there was always some pressure from that direction, but even so, he was vastly happier, and became much softer, sweeter, kinder, more thoughtful, more interested in life, more engaged.
Did he learn to self-direct his learning? It depends on what you mean. If you mean school-style learning or even vo-tech style learning, no, not at all. But he does some woodworking, some light construction, some carving, some artisan black-smithing, some other metal work when he can find the supplies and has a project in mind. He does some shows and sales events. He does a lot of odd jobs. Last year he spent two seasons on an organic farm and made a bunch of money - he's thinking of doing the same again this year. He lives in a tiny "hunting cabin" on our property and just this year started paying is own utilities - he offered, we have never asked him to do so. He travels a good deal and is very social. In some ways he's doing what a lot of young 20-somethings do, feeling his way along, trying to figure out this life thing.
You can't. Even if they Do read all that stuff: teaching isn't learning. It's as true of adults as kids.
Step back from the idea that you need to explain anything at all. Instead, dig down a little deeper into what relatives and friends want: they want to connect. So help them do that. Talk about what your kids are doing in ways that give the people who love them the ability to connect with them. Focus on the positive, on what fascinates your kids and makes them smile.
If you have time before your visit, make plans that reduce the amount of... "visiting" - the amount of time sitting around on review. Get out and Do things. Do some touristy things. Go shopping. If it's possible to visit without staying with relatives, do that. Get a hotel with an indoor pool if you can afford it and invite people there. Make the visit about having fun, enjoying one another's company, not biting your nails over how much of what to say so they won't speak of you Too badly once you go.
If you are going to do some "visiting" come up with stories to tell beforehand - help your kids come up with things to talk about too, so they're not stuck with the same-old "and how's school? (homeschool version)?" If you think someone's going to ask about math/algebra, think about what games your kid is playing that involves logic and problem solving and tell a story about that - not as an "answer" so much as "oh, that reminds me of this totally cool thing!" Don't explain or try to validate: redirect and/or change the subject entirely. Reading? The Internet is So Amazing - OMG, I never knew it was so easy to get a kid to read until we started hanging out on the internet together! What was that cool site we were looking at just the other day?
When Ray was still school-aged, I kept a blog, in part so his relatives could see what he was doing and keep up that way. If you're not into blogging, facebook is actually useful for the same purpose - post regular comments about the awesome things yoru kids are up to! This has a dual purpose - not only are you telling them, you're telling yourself, reminding yourself how cool your kids are, how much they're learning all the time.
---Meredith
>are there any families on this list that haven't unschooled from the beginning and do you feel things turned around for your teen? Did they begin to self-direct their learning and have a passion for it again?***********
My stepson, Ray, went through homeschooling across two households, then public school living with his bio-mom, then unschooling living with us. I think unschooling saved his life. It was never perfectly radical unschooling because his bio mom didn't leave the picture entirely and there was always some pressure from that direction, but even so, he was vastly happier, and became much softer, sweeter, kinder, more thoughtful, more interested in life, more engaged.
Did he learn to self-direct his learning? It depends on what you mean. If you mean school-style learning or even vo-tech style learning, no, not at all. But he does some woodworking, some light construction, some carving, some artisan black-smithing, some other metal work when he can find the supplies and has a project in mind. He does some shows and sales events. He does a lot of odd jobs. Last year he spent two seasons on an organic farm and made a bunch of money - he's thinking of doing the same again this year. He lives in a tiny "hunting cabin" on our property and just this year started paying is own utilities - he offered, we have never asked him to do so. He travels a good deal and is very social. In some ways he's doing what a lot of young 20-somethings do, feeling his way along, trying to figure out this life thing.
>>How can I explain this philosophy of learning to someone that doesn't have the inclination to read volumes on it?************
You can't. Even if they Do read all that stuff: teaching isn't learning. It's as true of adults as kids.
Step back from the idea that you need to explain anything at all. Instead, dig down a little deeper into what relatives and friends want: they want to connect. So help them do that. Talk about what your kids are doing in ways that give the people who love them the ability to connect with them. Focus on the positive, on what fascinates your kids and makes them smile.
If you have time before your visit, make plans that reduce the amount of... "visiting" - the amount of time sitting around on review. Get out and Do things. Do some touristy things. Go shopping. If it's possible to visit without staying with relatives, do that. Get a hotel with an indoor pool if you can afford it and invite people there. Make the visit about having fun, enjoying one another's company, not biting your nails over how much of what to say so they won't speak of you Too badly once you go.
If you are going to do some "visiting" come up with stories to tell beforehand - help your kids come up with things to talk about too, so they're not stuck with the same-old "and how's school? (homeschool version)?" If you think someone's going to ask about math/algebra, think about what games your kid is playing that involves logic and problem solving and tell a story about that - not as an "answer" so much as "oh, that reminds me of this totally cool thing!" Don't explain or try to validate: redirect and/or change the subject entirely. Reading? The Internet is So Amazing - OMG, I never knew it was so easy to get a kid to read until we started hanging out on the internet together! What was that cool site we were looking at just the other day?
When Ray was still school-aged, I kept a blog, in part so his relatives could see what he was doing and keep up that way. If you're not into blogging, facebook is actually useful for the same purpose - post regular comments about the awesome things yoru kids are up to! This has a dual purpose - not only are you telling them, you're telling yourself, reminding yourself how cool your kids are, how much they're learning all the time.
---Meredith