Re: [AlwaysLearning] a new 'democratic' school, & influences & fears
AngelOvFaith@...
I see since I last logged on, the posts for this thread have stopped but I
wanted to post since last night i attended a forum/open house for a new
"democratic" school in Philadelphia, at the suggestion of an unschooling
parent I highly respect.
The forum consisted of a rep from a Waldorf school, a Montessorri school,
and a Sudbury school, and much of it was confusing, as I went to learn
mostly about the year old program offered by, (if anyone's interested in seeing
what I mean, the phillyfreeschool.org ), and what they were about. Like the
posts I've read, yes this one also is "free from bells, free from grades,
free from tests, free to learn how they want" program", but at the cost of
10k per year. I wondered as much as we were highly received there, while my
daughter played with the other children, how on earth I would pay
something that I could take her to Seaworld with twice over or another goal, even
if we were granted financial assistance!
My point for writing is this though-, the area we live in, while urban,
does not have any large number of unschoolers in it at all, and no matter how
many activities we do together and my daughter says loves our life, i still
get a weekly comment from a neighbor, sometimes an elderly adult,
sometimes a mother of a child on the block she is playing with, and the worst was
from a college student who was a guest at a friend's house we were at, that
gets under my skin.
They all seem so concerned for my daughter..."Is your Mother teaching you
anything at home that you are going out all the time?" or "You are ruining
her life by running her around the city every day and not giving her any
structure!", and a classic was about me- "Her daughter called my daughter at
10:30 on a school night! I'm not allowing them to speak anymore!". The
college student's attempt to have a full on discussion with me, as she was
fascinated about my choice and that my child was probably unhappy. She went on
to say "...but it's a rite of passage to get bullied at school, or not
invited to the popular girl's birthday party. she NEEDS to learn these things
and you are babying her by not letting her go through them. she's going to be
stunted as an adult and not know how to cope with things."
Do I want my daughter to go through any of those things again and much
more? NO. But I did get scared by these people's comments. But not know how to
cope-, I found that funny since she has no idea what we've been through in
our own life. Why am I so fearful after 2 years of unschooling to the point
of checking out this new democratic school just so I can say, "why yes,
she has structure and socialization." That's about the only reason I would
even consider it.
Are these fears still normal to feel, does any one else have them and if so
how do you deal with them?
I have been keeping up with posts and know there were some topics on
unsupportive families and more so i'll reread some of those, but I just wanted
to add that. I dont know how if people see my daughter and i in and out of
the house attending the Phila. Flower Show, or the local Horror Convention
for the weekend, instead of wanting to "hang" out on the block with the
neighborhood kids, is damaging to her. Or if we sat in on "school nights" and
she would talk to other unschooling friends online or we would blast though
seasons of Walking Dead all week to discuss her new actress friend from the
show she met at the Horror Con, plus the plenty of other things we do or
sit in together and enjoy, ...I'm sure i dont have to ask, but am I stunting
her growth??? Wow, it just is sad to me that i let this fear even seep in
from these people's influences on me.
-Lynne, Mom to Faith, (9)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wanted to post since last night i attended a forum/open house for a new
"democratic" school in Philadelphia, at the suggestion of an unschooling
parent I highly respect.
The forum consisted of a rep from a Waldorf school, a Montessorri school,
and a Sudbury school, and much of it was confusing, as I went to learn
mostly about the year old program offered by, (if anyone's interested in seeing
what I mean, the phillyfreeschool.org ), and what they were about. Like the
posts I've read, yes this one also is "free from bells, free from grades,
free from tests, free to learn how they want" program", but at the cost of
10k per year. I wondered as much as we were highly received there, while my
daughter played with the other children, how on earth I would pay
something that I could take her to Seaworld with twice over or another goal, even
if we were granted financial assistance!
My point for writing is this though-, the area we live in, while urban,
does not have any large number of unschoolers in it at all, and no matter how
many activities we do together and my daughter says loves our life, i still
get a weekly comment from a neighbor, sometimes an elderly adult,
sometimes a mother of a child on the block she is playing with, and the worst was
from a college student who was a guest at a friend's house we were at, that
gets under my skin.
They all seem so concerned for my daughter..."Is your Mother teaching you
anything at home that you are going out all the time?" or "You are ruining
her life by running her around the city every day and not giving her any
structure!", and a classic was about me- "Her daughter called my daughter at
10:30 on a school night! I'm not allowing them to speak anymore!". The
college student's attempt to have a full on discussion with me, as she was
fascinated about my choice and that my child was probably unhappy. She went on
to say "...but it's a rite of passage to get bullied at school, or not
invited to the popular girl's birthday party. she NEEDS to learn these things
and you are babying her by not letting her go through them. she's going to be
stunted as an adult and not know how to cope with things."
Do I want my daughter to go through any of those things again and much
more? NO. But I did get scared by these people's comments. But not know how to
cope-, I found that funny since she has no idea what we've been through in
our own life. Why am I so fearful after 2 years of unschooling to the point
of checking out this new democratic school just so I can say, "why yes,
she has structure and socialization." That's about the only reason I would
even consider it.
Are these fears still normal to feel, does any one else have them and if so
how do you deal with them?
I have been keeping up with posts and know there were some topics on
unsupportive families and more so i'll reread some of those, but I just wanted
to add that. I dont know how if people see my daughter and i in and out of
the house attending the Phila. Flower Show, or the local Horror Convention
for the weekend, instead of wanting to "hang" out on the block with the
neighborhood kids, is damaging to her. Or if we sat in on "school nights" and
she would talk to other unschooling friends online or we would blast though
seasons of Walking Dead all week to discuss her new actress friend from the
show she met at the Horror Con, plus the plenty of other things we do or
sit in together and enjoy, ...I'm sure i dont have to ask, but am I stunting
her growth??? Wow, it just is sad to me that i let this fear even seep in
from these people's influences on me.
-Lynne, Mom to Faith, (9)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 15, 2013, at 6:34 PM, AngelOvFaith@... wrote:
What isn't normal is hearing weekly comments. I'm wondering if your fears are too close to the surface? It sounds like others may be picking up on your doubts which triggers their concerns. Which is then fueling your fears further.
If you're doing something unconventional and project uncertainty people will pick up on it. It makes you seem unsure which will draw people to offer commentary and advice.
If you need validation, the best one to look to is your daughter. Is she happy? Is she engaged? Are you listening to her and her needs rather than to strangers who want to treat her as a generic thing with generic needs?
How would you respond to similar comments about something you are confident about? What would your voice sound like? What would your body language be?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Are these fears still normal to feel, does any one else have them and if soWhile she's still home, while her future still feels like your responsibility, it's natural to have concerns about your decisions.
> how do you deal with them?
What isn't normal is hearing weekly comments. I'm wondering if your fears are too close to the surface? It sounds like others may be picking up on your doubts which triggers their concerns. Which is then fueling your fears further.
If you're doing something unconventional and project uncertainty people will pick up on it. It makes you seem unsure which will draw people to offer commentary and advice.
If you need validation, the best one to look to is your daughter. Is she happy? Is she engaged? Are you listening to her and her needs rather than to strangers who want to treat her as a generic thing with generic needs?
> "Is your Mother teaching youHow did you respond to those? Were you defensive? Were you anxious to explain so they could understand?
> anything at home that you are going out all the time?" or "You are ruining
> her life by running her around the city every day and not giving her any
> structure!",
How would you respond to similar comments about something you are confident about? What would your voice sound like? What would your body language be?
> and a classic was about me- "Her daughter called my daughter atI'm not sure what's classic about that. She shouldn't be calling schooled kids that late. It's respectful to be aware of other's needs even if you don't agree with them.
> 10:30 on a school night! I'm not allowing them to speak anymore!".
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robert and Colleen
****and a classic was about me - "Her daughter called my daughter at 10:30 on a school night! I'm not allowing them to speak anymore!"****
My 10 year old has a friend who lives in our neighborhood, and who attends fourth grade at the public school in town.
He knows that weekdays she's only available occasionally in the afternoons and evenings to play, as often she has homework and chores to do, and she is in bed by 8 PM.
Weekends, she is awake and ready to play by 8 AM, but she knows that he usually isn't awake and ready to play til closer to 10 AM :-)
Sometimes when they talk, I've heard them comparing their schedules - she finds it amazing that he's "allowed" :-) to stay up late at night and doesn't have a mandatory bedtime - and she finds it funny (in a happy way :-)) that when she arrived at our house one recent morning when school was canceled due to snow, to see if he wanted to go sledding, he was still in his pajamas having breakfast, while she'd been up and active for hours.
He, on the other hand, finds it incredible that she can fall asleep so early - and that she has never in her life been allowed to be up past 9 PM, and then only on special occasions in summer when school is out. She has a huge backpack that she carries to school, and one of her before-bed requirements is that she always have it packed and ready to go for the next day - he asks her how long that takes and what she puts in it and why. He tells her he doesn't have homework or heavy books and she says he's lucky :-)
They are both very happy kids and they talk in a good-natured way about the differences in their lives. They afford each other a lot of respect, and they have worked out ways to play despite their rather opposite time schedules.
But if my son ever forgot her early bedtime and wanted to go visit or call their house late at night, it'd be my job as his partner to make sure he didn't - her parents would be upset (understandably so!) and that would put their play-time together at risk. Similarly, last weekend when she came to play she was all smiles when she came in, telling us that she had headed out the door an hour earlier and her mom caught her and reminded her that "Robbie doesn't run as early as you do..." :-)
Her parents have never had a conversation with us about any of this - we are very different people living very different lives, but our kids really enjoy each other and I'm happy to know they're trying as hard as we are to keep things smooth and happy among us all. Respect and mindfulness can go a long way with neighbors and friends, just as it does with kids :-)
Colleen
My 10 year old has a friend who lives in our neighborhood, and who attends fourth grade at the public school in town.
He knows that weekdays she's only available occasionally in the afternoons and evenings to play, as often she has homework and chores to do, and she is in bed by 8 PM.
Weekends, she is awake and ready to play by 8 AM, but she knows that he usually isn't awake and ready to play til closer to 10 AM :-)
Sometimes when they talk, I've heard them comparing their schedules - she finds it amazing that he's "allowed" :-) to stay up late at night and doesn't have a mandatory bedtime - and she finds it funny (in a happy way :-)) that when she arrived at our house one recent morning when school was canceled due to snow, to see if he wanted to go sledding, he was still in his pajamas having breakfast, while she'd been up and active for hours.
He, on the other hand, finds it incredible that she can fall asleep so early - and that she has never in her life been allowed to be up past 9 PM, and then only on special occasions in summer when school is out. She has a huge backpack that she carries to school, and one of her before-bed requirements is that she always have it packed and ready to go for the next day - he asks her how long that takes and what she puts in it and why. He tells her he doesn't have homework or heavy books and she says he's lucky :-)
They are both very happy kids and they talk in a good-natured way about the differences in their lives. They afford each other a lot of respect, and they have worked out ways to play despite their rather opposite time schedules.
But if my son ever forgot her early bedtime and wanted to go visit or call their house late at night, it'd be my job as his partner to make sure he didn't - her parents would be upset (understandably so!) and that would put their play-time together at risk. Similarly, last weekend when she came to play she was all smiles when she came in, telling us that she had headed out the door an hour earlier and her mom caught her and reminded her that "Robbie doesn't run as early as you do..." :-)
Her parents have never had a conversation with us about any of this - we are very different people living very different lives, but our kids really enjoy each other and I'm happy to know they're trying as hard as we are to keep things smooth and happy among us all. Respect and mindfulness can go a long way with neighbors and friends, just as it does with kids :-)
Colleen
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
AngelOvFaith@... wrote:
Don't set people up to comment in a negative way on your lifestyle. Be positive about your life with your daughter, positive about what she's doing. Project a sense of assurance that what you're doing is what's right for you and your family - in fact, you might want to join some kind of homeschooling support group (online maybe) where other moms will tell you a bazillion times "you're doing what's right for your family" and "you're a great mom" if you feel like you're lacking in the confidence department. There is a value to that kind of support sometimes! Learn all those stock phrases homeschoolers and others with alternative lifestyles use and bolster yourself with them. If it helps, get mad at the way schools limit kids' worlds so you can look at your child and confidently say "yes, this is Better than school".
This really isn't a problem of unschooling or even homeschooling, it's about being visible as a minority. You need to learn some minority survival/pride skills - it's not your job to educate the masses about homeschooling, it's not your job to defend homeschooling, it's not your job to be a poster mom for the home-ed movement. It is your job to support your kid, so she can stand up under the onslaught of "homeschoolers are stupid and unsocialized". She needs to see and hear you standing up for her against ignorance and discrimination.
Another thing to ask is "do you think those things never happen in real life?" Again, you don't need to explain anything - and if you have a tendency to be apologetic or lack confidence you Shouldn't explain anything as it will set you up for more unsolicited advice. But a question like that can do a lot to show people they're making assumptions based on stereotypes rather than reality.
---Meredith
>i stillThat's a lot of commentary on your life from strangers. It leads me to think you're not very good at projecting self-confidence and maybe are a bit of a "people pleaser" or don't like to offend people. That's not an innately bad thing - but there's some skill involved in being able to say "mind your own beeswax" in a way that's non-confrontational.
> get a weekly comment from a neighbor, sometimes an elderly adult,
> sometimes a mother of a child on the block she is playing with, and the worst was
> from a college student who was a guest at a friend's house we were at, that
> gets under my skin.
Don't set people up to comment in a negative way on your lifestyle. Be positive about your life with your daughter, positive about what she's doing. Project a sense of assurance that what you're doing is what's right for you and your family - in fact, you might want to join some kind of homeschooling support group (online maybe) where other moms will tell you a bazillion times "you're doing what's right for your family" and "you're a great mom" if you feel like you're lacking in the confidence department. There is a value to that kind of support sometimes! Learn all those stock phrases homeschoolers and others with alternative lifestyles use and bolster yourself with them. If it helps, get mad at the way schools limit kids' worlds so you can look at your child and confidently say "yes, this is Better than school".
This really isn't a problem of unschooling or even homeschooling, it's about being visible as a minority. You need to learn some minority survival/pride skills - it's not your job to educate the masses about homeschooling, it's not your job to defend homeschooling, it's not your job to be a poster mom for the home-ed movement. It is your job to support your kid, so she can stand up under the onslaught of "homeschoolers are stupid and unsocialized". She needs to see and hear you standing up for her against ignorance and discrimination.
>>You are ruiningDoes your daughter seem unhappy or stressed out? It sounds like you're out and about a lot - way too much for my daughter, but Mo's a pretty solid introvert. If your kid is happy being out and about that much, then it's important that you find a way to shut down those sorts of comments so your aquaintances don't feel like they have a right to say them. If you want, you could offer a reading list with titles like "Unschooling: how to use the whole world as your child's classroom" - not with the expectation that they'll actually read anything, but with titles which will make a point (and later you can ask "did you read any of those books?" and shut down the conversation that way). Or you could say something like "she's too inquisitive for dull old bookwork - she learns much better this way" (with Ray I used to say "he's such an Active Boy, being in a desk was torture - he's doing So Much Better since we pulled him out" and with Mo: "Oh, she's Such an Independent learner it's all I can do to keep up with her"). Or if you want to be a bad-ass you could rant about how incarcerating children who should be actively exploring the world in concrete boxes all day is tantamount to child abuse and you won't subject your kid to that kind of treatment (or something similar, look around on facebook and you'll find something). That won't win you any friends, but it might stop the conversation.
> her life by running her around the city every day and not giving her any
> structure!
>"...but it's a rite of passage to get bullied at school, or notMy dad has come up with stuff like that periodically. One way to respond is to ask something like "do you think we spend all day at the kitchen table doing workbooks? Because that's not our life at all." That's sometimes enough, right there - you don't have to describe your life, just letting people know they're operating on a stereotype rather than real information is very helpful.
> invited to the popular girl's birthday party. she NEEDS to learn these things
> and you are babying her by not letting her go through them. she's going to be
> stunted as an adult and not know how to cope with things."
Another thing to ask is "do you think those things never happen in real life?" Again, you don't need to explain anything - and if you have a tendency to be apologetic or lack confidence you Shouldn't explain anything as it will set you up for more unsolicited advice. But a question like that can do a lot to show people they're making assumptions based on stereotypes rather than reality.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-But if my son ever forgot her early bedtime and wanted to go visit or call their house late at night, it'd be my job as his partner to make sure he didn't - her parents would be upset (understandably so!) and that would put their play-time together at risk. Similarly, last weekend when she came to play she was all smiles when she came in, telling us that she had headed out the door an hour earlier and her mom caught her and reminded her that "Robbie doesn't run as early as you do..." :-)
... Respect and mindfulness can go a long way with neighbors and friends, just as it does with kids :-) -=-
Disrespect and carelessness doesn't go far, though, and it can't easily be undone.
When a friendship isn't nurtured and protected it can die. Worse, if it is destroyed carelessly, it can go past a quiet neutral death to an antagonism and negativity that could, frankly, be dangerous to the freedoms of an unschooling family.
Though some people hop and hoot about freedom when they're telling others how easy it is to be unschoolers (then they forget, it seems, to talk about learning at all, or about how to unschool... just "how to be unschoolers," how to join their happy hoppin' hootin' club and Be FREE!), here's something real that they're pretending doesn't exist:
Nobody has the right to disturb other people's sleep. Not adults, not kids. Since telephones have been invented, the etiquette that goes with them is not to call when others might be sleeping. An unexpected late-night telephone call now, like a telegram 100 years ago, is likely to mean there's an emergency�death, jail, car accident. And a housephone is likely to wake up everyone in the house, which is triply or quadruply (I don't know adjectives for more than four rudenesses at once) rude.
PLEASE don't say or do things that cause your children to think they are exempt from societal expectations outside of going to school. Not going to school is a big one, of course, and if a family opts out, they should replace that with something way better than school. And if a family goes further, to radical unschooling, it shouldn't show outside the house. It shouldn't involve illegalities or disturb the peace.
Don't assume that your children will grow up and live in unschooling world. They are now, and will be, living in the real world. There isn't a fantasy world to go to, even though a small subset of unschoolers are trying to magically attract one. What they're attracting is more people with a wimpy grasp on reality.
Help your children be whole, thoughtful, impressive people, not wild children who irritate others.
Encouraging anything other than a whole, thoughtful, impressive presence isn't going to impress any neighbors or inlaws. Sometimes neighbors and inlaws who are unimpressed call social workers.
Encouraging anything other than a whole, thoughtful, impressive presence isn't going to impress any social workers or judges. Sometimes social workers and juges who are unimpressed tell a family to put their kids in school. In especially unattractive situations, they might just put the children with another family.
Very rarely do I go down the negative trails this way, but there ARE such trails.
I like to hope that discussions and links to information about being positive, helpful, useful, happy and considerate can get a family to the point that they're nowhere near the dangerous cliffs.
People with enough money to put kids in expensive alternative schools or move to other countries might find it easier than a family whose only option is that public school down the road.
Live responsibly. Be a good partner to your child. Do things as a team (you'll do most of the thinking and doing, when they're young) that will cause the neighbors to like you, not to complain and avoid you, if you can.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
... Respect and mindfulness can go a long way with neighbors and friends, just as it does with kids :-) -=-
Disrespect and carelessness doesn't go far, though, and it can't easily be undone.
When a friendship isn't nurtured and protected it can die. Worse, if it is destroyed carelessly, it can go past a quiet neutral death to an antagonism and negativity that could, frankly, be dangerous to the freedoms of an unschooling family.
Though some people hop and hoot about freedom when they're telling others how easy it is to be unschoolers (then they forget, it seems, to talk about learning at all, or about how to unschool... just "how to be unschoolers," how to join their happy hoppin' hootin' club and Be FREE!), here's something real that they're pretending doesn't exist:
Nobody has the right to disturb other people's sleep. Not adults, not kids. Since telephones have been invented, the etiquette that goes with them is not to call when others might be sleeping. An unexpected late-night telephone call now, like a telegram 100 years ago, is likely to mean there's an emergency�death, jail, car accident. And a housephone is likely to wake up everyone in the house, which is triply or quadruply (I don't know adjectives for more than four rudenesses at once) rude.
PLEASE don't say or do things that cause your children to think they are exempt from societal expectations outside of going to school. Not going to school is a big one, of course, and if a family opts out, they should replace that with something way better than school. And if a family goes further, to radical unschooling, it shouldn't show outside the house. It shouldn't involve illegalities or disturb the peace.
Don't assume that your children will grow up and live in unschooling world. They are now, and will be, living in the real world. There isn't a fantasy world to go to, even though a small subset of unschoolers are trying to magically attract one. What they're attracting is more people with a wimpy grasp on reality.
Help your children be whole, thoughtful, impressive people, not wild children who irritate others.
Encouraging anything other than a whole, thoughtful, impressive presence isn't going to impress any neighbors or inlaws. Sometimes neighbors and inlaws who are unimpressed call social workers.
Encouraging anything other than a whole, thoughtful, impressive presence isn't going to impress any social workers or judges. Sometimes social workers and juges who are unimpressed tell a family to put their kids in school. In especially unattractive situations, they might just put the children with another family.
Very rarely do I go down the negative trails this way, but there ARE such trails.
I like to hope that discussions and links to information about being positive, helpful, useful, happy and considerate can get a family to the point that they're nowhere near the dangerous cliffs.
People with enough money to put kids in expensive alternative schools or move to other countries might find it easier than a family whose only option is that public school down the road.
Live responsibly. Be a good partner to your child. Do things as a team (you'll do most of the thinking and doing, when they're young) that will cause the neighbors to like you, not to complain and avoid you, if you can.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Another thing to ask is "do you think those things never happen in real life?" Again, you don't need to explain anything - and if you have a tendency to be apologetic or lack confidence you Shouldn't explain anything as it will set you up for more unsolicited advice. But a question like that can do a lot to show people they're making assumptions based on stereotypes rather than reality. -=-
Sometimes just saying "What do you mean?" can stump them. Don't say it in a mean way, just a request for clarification. Very often the other person is using a phrase he's heard (such as "what about socialization"?) and hasn't thought about At All.
And if they DO come back with an actual point they've thought up inependently and you hadn't thought of it, you could say "Hmmm. I hadn't though of that." It will make them feel better, and give you time to think of what to say the next time you meet with that person, if it comes up again.
Another tactic is to ask "Have you read much about unschoolers?" or "Are we the only unschoolers you know?"
(Or homeschooling, if the discussion is at that level and not particularly about unschooling.)
They will say something that might turn to a conversation, or they might say that you are the only ones, in which case you can nod and go "Hmmm..." in such a way that hints that it's understandable, then, that your questioner doesn't have a clue. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sometimes just saying "What do you mean?" can stump them. Don't say it in a mean way, just a request for clarification. Very often the other person is using a phrase he's heard (such as "what about socialization"?) and hasn't thought about At All.
And if they DO come back with an actual point they've thought up inependently and you hadn't thought of it, you could say "Hmmm. I hadn't though of that." It will make them feel better, and give you time to think of what to say the next time you meet with that person, if it comes up again.
Another tactic is to ask "Have you read much about unschoolers?" or "Are we the only unschoolers you know?"
(Or homeschooling, if the discussion is at that level and not particularly about unschooling.)
They will say something that might turn to a conversation, or they might say that you are the only ones, in which case you can nod and go "Hmmm..." in such a way that hints that it's understandable, then, that your questioner doesn't have a clue. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezignarob
I've touched on some of this in my Unschooling Misconceptions presentation.
Something that can often be helpful when people are expressing their fears - especially when it really is none of their business - is to say "I'm not worried".
The trick is this works better when you actually aren't worried. So observe your child and see the learning happening, and the happiness. In the mean time say it with a smile, and maybe a bit of a shoulder shrug, and you aren't inviting further commentary.
Another thing, is that most people prefer to talk about themselves and their own children/pets/vacation/relatives/operation than to talk about other people. If you can follow up with a question about what they are doing in their life, it may be sufficiently distracting.
For someone persistent, or someone who thinks they know a lot about education and learning, I have said things like: "Our personalized curriculum is - or We use - an integrated, highly vocational, individualized learning program that facilitates skills acquisition through deep focus on interests and passions. We're very happy. I'm not worried."
Just mash up those key words - integrated, vocational, skills, focus, personalized - very helpful.
For someone who has a reason to love your child particularly like an actual relative, it can be helpful to think of it as you reassuring them that all will be well, and you know what you are doing.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Something that can often be helpful when people are expressing their fears - especially when it really is none of their business - is to say "I'm not worried".
The trick is this works better when you actually aren't worried. So observe your child and see the learning happening, and the happiness. In the mean time say it with a smile, and maybe a bit of a shoulder shrug, and you aren't inviting further commentary.
Another thing, is that most people prefer to talk about themselves and their own children/pets/vacation/relatives/operation than to talk about other people. If you can follow up with a question about what they are doing in their life, it may be sufficiently distracting.
For someone persistent, or someone who thinks they know a lot about education and learning, I have said things like: "Our personalized curriculum is - or We use - an integrated, highly vocational, individualized learning program that facilitates skills acquisition through deep focus on interests and passions. We're very happy. I'm not worried."
Just mash up those key words - integrated, vocational, skills, focus, personalized - very helpful.
For someone who has a reason to love your child particularly like an actual relative, it can be helpful to think of it as you reassuring them that all will be well, and you know what you are doing.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> What isn't normal is hearing weekly comments. I'm wondering if your fears are too close to the surface? It sounds like others may be picking up on your doubts which triggers their concerns. Which is then fueling your fears further.
>
> If you're doing something unconventional and project uncertainty people will pick up on it. It makes you seem unsure which will draw people to offer commentary and advice.
>
> If you need validation, the best one to look to is your daughter. Is she happy? Is she engaged? Are you listening to her and her needs rather than to strangers who want to treat her as a generic thing with generic needs?
>
Meredith
"dezignarob" <dezignarob@...> wrote:
Just using the word "curriculum" can go a long way toward reassuring some people. For that matter, in response to comments like the one about running around doing things rather than learning at home, you could say something as simple as "it's in our curriculum." Another good line, along with "I'm not worried" is "this seems to be working so far".
I've said "organic, interest-based curriculum" to other parents and "Arts and science based curriculum" too - the latter most especially on the local form I send in every year.
Of course, those kinds of comments by unschoolers could be adding to the lack of general clarity about what unschooling Is - after all, if people like me and Robyn are using a curriculum, then it must be okay ;)
---Meredith
>I have said things like: "Our personalized curriculum is - or We use - an integrated, highly vocational, individualized learning program that facilitates skills acquisition through deep focus on interests and passions. We're very happy. I'm not worried."************
Just using the word "curriculum" can go a long way toward reassuring some people. For that matter, in response to comments like the one about running around doing things rather than learning at home, you could say something as simple as "it's in our curriculum." Another good line, along with "I'm not worried" is "this seems to be working so far".
I've said "organic, interest-based curriculum" to other parents and "Arts and science based curriculum" too - the latter most especially on the local form I send in every year.
Of course, those kinds of comments by unschoolers could be adding to the lack of general clarity about what unschooling Is - after all, if people like me and Robyn are using a curriculum, then it must be okay ;)
---Meredith
D. Regan
I remembered that the writer had written posts referring to doubts before, and went and re-read a couple to see if it might help with the situation now.
From January 2012, -=- ...they think strongly that she should be in school. I feel concerned about these remarks. I dont even know where to go from here with this, but i am afraid perhaps of any consequences that could negatively affect her. I see school right now as something that would hinder us both further, but is our situation not prime for unschooling anymore and Im refusing to see it??? -=-
From August 2012, -=- I dont want to give up, i dont want to stop unschooling and eventually have to give in and send my child back to school. yet little by little i am feeling like a failure in *some* areas and while i do read the posts here every day, i havnt always been able to contribute my thoughts as i would like, wondering if i have a right to chime in as im battling my confidence against some insecurities as a joyful parent. -=-
And now -=- Why am I so fearful after 2 years of unschooling to the point of checking out this new democratic school just so I can say, "why yes, she has structure and socialization." That's about the only reason I would even consider it.
Are these fears still normal to feel, does any one else have them and if so how do you deal with them? -=-
It must be difficult living with so much doubt. I think it would help to step back from the idea of unschooling if you're not able to feel confident that what you're doing is awesome for your daughter. Step back from a big idea like unschooling and take smaller steps that you can feel confident of.
Sometimes people get so caught up in the big picture that they've heard about, that they miss all the little things that come together to make the big picture. Without their own little things building their own big picture, they can find themselves trying to live someone else's big picture, not really understanding why, unable to *know* that it makes sense or to feel confident about it.
Take care to bring a peaceful, mindful attitude to as many moments as you can.
Take more time to really see and get to know your daughter. What does your daughter love to do?, what makes her light up with joy?, what does she talk about at night when all is quiet? Can you help her explore those things, help her feel delight and joy many times a day. If she has lived with a lot of chaos, it will help if you listen sensitively, as she begins to become more aware of her own feelings and desires.
Being well-connected to our children is a fundamental starting point to unschooling. Starting there helps to build confidence naturally, lessening any need to try to appear confident to others, or to convince them.
Debbie.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From January 2012, -=- ...they think strongly that she should be in school. I feel concerned about these remarks. I dont even know where to go from here with this, but i am afraid perhaps of any consequences that could negatively affect her. I see school right now as something that would hinder us both further, but is our situation not prime for unschooling anymore and Im refusing to see it??? -=-
From August 2012, -=- I dont want to give up, i dont want to stop unschooling and eventually have to give in and send my child back to school. yet little by little i am feeling like a failure in *some* areas and while i do read the posts here every day, i havnt always been able to contribute my thoughts as i would like, wondering if i have a right to chime in as im battling my confidence against some insecurities as a joyful parent. -=-
And now -=- Why am I so fearful after 2 years of unschooling to the point of checking out this new democratic school just so I can say, "why yes, she has structure and socialization." That's about the only reason I would even consider it.
Are these fears still normal to feel, does any one else have them and if so how do you deal with them? -=-
It must be difficult living with so much doubt. I think it would help to step back from the idea of unschooling if you're not able to feel confident that what you're doing is awesome for your daughter. Step back from a big idea like unschooling and take smaller steps that you can feel confident of.
Sometimes people get so caught up in the big picture that they've heard about, that they miss all the little things that come together to make the big picture. Without their own little things building their own big picture, they can find themselves trying to live someone else's big picture, not really understanding why, unable to *know* that it makes sense or to feel confident about it.
Take care to bring a peaceful, mindful attitude to as many moments as you can.
Take more time to really see and get to know your daughter. What does your daughter love to do?, what makes her light up with joy?, what does she talk about at night when all is quiet? Can you help her explore those things, help her feel delight and joy many times a day. If she has lived with a lot of chaos, it will help if you listen sensitively, as she begins to become more aware of her own feelings and desires.
Being well-connected to our children is a fundamental starting point to unschooling. Starting there helps to build confidence naturally, lessening any need to try to appear confident to others, or to convince them.
Debbie.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Robyn, is there a sound recording or online file of your presentation on misconceptions?
Your ideas for responses were great, and I'd like to keep them, or link to them if they're in public already, please.
Asking them to talk about their kids is a great idea.
Sometimes I've asked them to talk about school, what the liked best, and what the liked least, if it was a situation where I was stuck with them for a while. :-)
Sandra
Your ideas for responses were great, and I'd like to keep them, or link to them if they're in public already, please.
Asking them to talk about their kids is a great idea.
Sometimes I've asked them to talk about school, what the liked best, and what the liked least, if it was a situation where I was stuck with them for a while. :-)
Sandra
dezignarob
Sandra, the presentation was at North East Unschooling Conference but I don't think they routinely record the presentations.
The footnotes to the conference are here, because it is very important to me to give proper attributions, http://www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com/2012/08/unschooling-misconceptions-footnotes.html
but they are just your site, Joyce's and one or two other familiar links, like the "bean dip" defense - except for the really interesting link to the science channel segment about the guy researching psychopaths' brains - so fascinating from an unschooling POV.
My presentation included a power point slide show - but it may not make much sense without the talk. Perhaps I can upload it into the files here. I'll check.
BUT, I will be presenting at Life is Good NEXT year (2014 for posterity) and I hope to present it again. And I believe Mary does have all those recorded.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
The footnotes to the conference are here, because it is very important to me to give proper attributions, http://www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com/2012/08/unschooling-misconceptions-footnotes.html
but they are just your site, Joyce's and one or two other familiar links, like the "bean dip" defense - except for the really interesting link to the science channel segment about the guy researching psychopaths' brains - so fascinating from an unschooling POV.
My presentation included a power point slide show - but it may not make much sense without the talk. Perhaps I can upload it into the files here. I'll check.
BUT, I will be presenting at Life is Good NEXT year (2014 for posterity) and I hope to present it again. And I believe Mary does have all those recorded.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Robyn, is there a sound recording or online file of your presentation on misconceptions?
>
> Your ideas for responses were great, and I'd like to keep them, or link to them if they're in public already, please.
>
> Asking them to talk about their kids is a great idea.
>
> Sometimes I've asked them to talk about school, what the liked best, and what the liked least, if it was a situation where I was stuck with them for a while. :-)
>
> Sandra
>
AngelOvFaith@...
>If you need validation, the best one to look to is your daughter. Is shehappy? Is she >engaged? Are you listening to her and her needs rather than
to strangers who want >to treat her as a generic thing with generic needs?
Joyce, Yes a lot of these fears were brought to the surface over our recent
circumstances in moving, and being a single parent. I try not to show
them, but there may be times when I could seem frazzled from unpacked boxes or
a not full refridgerator, if we are doing low on cash, so maybe this a
concern to some. I asked my daughter though on this and she stated what she
wants, having our own place to nest and money being tight rather than staying
with people and having possibilities of other problems that arise from such
situations other than money.
>How did you respond to those? Were you defensive? Were you anxious toexplain >so they could understand? how would you respond to similar comments
about same >thing you are confident about? What would your voice sound like?
What would your >body language be?
I've replied with yes we have our things we do at home, and things we do
out. I kept my tone to all those neighbors with a calm even toned voice but
it may have been a bit defensive to the one who thought i was ruining her
life. I still held steady just chose not to hold conversations with that
person any longer other than formal hellos. But yes I do see how I need to
sound more confident in some areas as I do get nervous and start thinking they
know better when that is only my own low self esteem about what ifs not
what i know about my daughter.
>I'm not sure what's classic about that. She shouldn't be calling schooledkids that late. >It's respectful to be aware of other's needs even if you
don't agree with them.
I agree, it was only classic to me because it was a mother i trusted to
talk to me about it not to cut us off. maybe she was waiting for an excuse to
who knows. I had spoken with my daughter about not calling schooled friends
after a certain time and to even find out what everyone's phone time
is...she was overenthusiastic about talking to the girl and i let it go as a
minor thing when in fact it was not viewed that way. I tried expressing
apologies from each of us to this family and have gotten no response only the
gossip we heard. I found that sad because now for whatever real reason she
lost this friend, and i have no idea what the little girl was told as to why
she can no longer associate with my daughter.
-Lynne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
AngelOvFaith@...
Colleen,
I love what you shared about you son and his schooled friend. Its very
inspiring and awesome for the children to learn and know. There are children we
know like who are respectful of one another that but who do not live
close by. I love that the parents are mindful of it as well. I do hope my
daughter can find friends with open minded parents like that. Thank you.
-Lynne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I love what you shared about you son and his schooled friend. Its very
inspiring and awesome for the children to learn and know. There are children we
know like who are respectful of one another that but who do not live
close by. I love that the parents are mindful of it as well. I do hope my
daughter can find friends with open minded parents like that. Thank you.
-Lynne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I tried expressing
apologies from each of us to this family and have gotten no response only the
gossip we heard. I found that sad because now for whatever real reason she
lost this friend, and i have no idea what the little girl was told as to why
she can no longer associate with my daughter. -=-
I think it might have been because she called at 10:30. That might be enough for me, honestly.
I got a phone call at 10:30 Saturday night. It scared me, because Holly and Marty were both out driving in the desert in other states. It said Pam Sorooshian. That still worried me, and there was nobody there by the time I fumbled with the phone. (I was in bed, but not asleep.) I called Pam back and she said she had left her phone somewhere, and the person who found it was trying to call the last number called when she got back. I guess they would've said "your friend left her phone here," and I would've called one of her daughters, or her home phone.
That same night, at 12:05, the house phone rang. The one in our room is LOUD. It's an old dial phone. It was Holly. She and Will were okay, but I didn't know that for the first minute or two Keith was talking to her. They were stuck in sand in the Mojave, off on a dirt road. They were trying to get roadside assistance out there. Keith was groggy and not being very helpful at first. I, on the other hand, was filled with fearful adrenaline and hardly slept the rest of the night.
Had either of those calls been a child wanting to speak to another child (especially one long asleep who had school the next day), it would have been a major irritation for me.
-=-I had spoken with my daughter about not calling schooled friends
after a certain time and to even find out what everyone's phone time
is...-=-
You asked HER to find out?
That's too much responsibility for her. You should be calling instead and arranging play dates, not letting a very young child make phone calls like that, I think. Unless you know the family VERY well, they shouldn't need to interact with your daughter directly, nor with ANYone after their child's bedtime.
Make a guess based on general practices. Teens probably are in bed at 10:00, and youngest kids by 8:00 or so. Don't treat it case-by-case. Be as courteous as you can be, so that your daughter can see what that looks like in daily practice.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
apologies from each of us to this family and have gotten no response only the
gossip we heard. I found that sad because now for whatever real reason she
lost this friend, and i have no idea what the little girl was told as to why
she can no longer associate with my daughter. -=-
I think it might have been because she called at 10:30. That might be enough for me, honestly.
I got a phone call at 10:30 Saturday night. It scared me, because Holly and Marty were both out driving in the desert in other states. It said Pam Sorooshian. That still worried me, and there was nobody there by the time I fumbled with the phone. (I was in bed, but not asleep.) I called Pam back and she said she had left her phone somewhere, and the person who found it was trying to call the last number called when she got back. I guess they would've said "your friend left her phone here," and I would've called one of her daughters, or her home phone.
That same night, at 12:05, the house phone rang. The one in our room is LOUD. It's an old dial phone. It was Holly. She and Will were okay, but I didn't know that for the first minute or two Keith was talking to her. They were stuck in sand in the Mojave, off on a dirt road. They were trying to get roadside assistance out there. Keith was groggy and not being very helpful at first. I, on the other hand, was filled with fearful adrenaline and hardly slept the rest of the night.
Had either of those calls been a child wanting to speak to another child (especially one long asleep who had school the next day), it would have been a major irritation for me.
-=-I had spoken with my daughter about not calling schooled friends
after a certain time and to even find out what everyone's phone time
is...-=-
You asked HER to find out?
That's too much responsibility for her. You should be calling instead and arranging play dates, not letting a very young child make phone calls like that, I think. Unless you know the family VERY well, they shouldn't need to interact with your daughter directly, nor with ANYone after their child's bedtime.
Make a guess based on general practices. Teens probably are in bed at 10:00, and youngest kids by 8:00 or so. Don't treat it case-by-case. Be as courteous as you can be, so that your daughter can see what that looks like in daily practice.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
AngelOvFaith@...
yes I am a people pleaser, and when it builds up so much i tend to get a
bit confrontational, and that's why i came here to this forum first about
this, lol. I feel the resentment building up and even sometimes dreading
stepping outside to have to engage in a discussion at the elevator our the
curb.
But i realize that these things will happen whether i see the people or
not, and its how we conduct ourselves as pointed out in other posts about
respecting time schedules and so forth. Homeschoolers support
groups-check.,
Unschoolers support group-check. Single parents support groups, only child
support groups, divorced parents playgroups, check check check, lol.
Reading
through here, and other places similar always help me renew my confidence
in what we chose and are doing.
I agree and they truly dont know how happy my daughter is. They are only
seeing one side of her amongst the schooled kids on the street who think
her
manners, her responsible way she calls me to go over or inside someones
house or to let me know if she's using a scooter or a bike and to where so
i
can see her out the door or window is being a baby who has no social
skills.
One girl the same age called her "pathetic that you have to let your mom
know". For some reason this is seen this way and i'm not sure why. Yet i
really have seen from experience not to tell these moms what to do about
their
own daughter's attitudes, because people dont like it or in some cases
will break out a baseball bat, lol. We never like to hear what we are
doing
wrong with our children, but I am confident that my child's social skills
will keep her safe and attract good people as she gets older. Like me, she
would rather be inside drawing or on the computer or doing something with
me
than playing with these children who knock for her after school then their
mothers have an opinion of her.
I like the comments you offered me to say back. Thank you very helpful to
be armed with as well as ideas to keep in mind as to why people are saying
only what they know not really knowing their children. I'm not mentioning
of
course the other half of parents who always say "oh we love having her
over, she's so good, she's the most well behaved girl who comes over" or
such
stuff. I just say thank you. But a lot of them dont "get" what unschooling
is and think that "homeschooling" is a luxury we have taken because I'm
not
working.
But to answer your question, my daughter does get stressed out when she
hears these questions or comments, but about going out? no, we usually
pick
what we want to do if an exhibit or convention comes to town. We LOVE
Harry
Potter, the books and movies, so we love to frequent the exhibit and hang
out there always seeing new things. (Its one of the things in New York
right
now) and we enjoy the train rides together as well, talking or reading
together, walking through the city, here or new York, if there's a time we
get
bored of it, we go home.
Funny i find myself explaining to you, in hopes to give you more insight
but yet wondering if i do these these things with outside strangers.
Bullying
is something that can happen in or out of school. To parents and children
alike. But i will definitely try to be more confident when answering these
questions, raised eyebrows and high pitched endings a to questions have a
way of unnerving me though, i'm working on the armor with all your help
here, lol thank you:)
-Lynne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bit confrontational, and that's why i came here to this forum first about
this, lol. I feel the resentment building up and even sometimes dreading
stepping outside to have to engage in a discussion at the elevator our the
curb.
But i realize that these things will happen whether i see the people or
not, and its how we conduct ourselves as pointed out in other posts about
respecting time schedules and so forth. Homeschoolers support
groups-check.,
Unschoolers support group-check. Single parents support groups, only child
support groups, divorced parents playgroups, check check check, lol.
Reading
through here, and other places similar always help me renew my confidence
in what we chose and are doing.
I agree and they truly dont know how happy my daughter is. They are only
seeing one side of her amongst the schooled kids on the street who think
her
manners, her responsible way she calls me to go over or inside someones
house or to let me know if she's using a scooter or a bike and to where so
i
can see her out the door or window is being a baby who has no social
skills.
One girl the same age called her "pathetic that you have to let your mom
know". For some reason this is seen this way and i'm not sure why. Yet i
really have seen from experience not to tell these moms what to do about
their
own daughter's attitudes, because people dont like it or in some cases
will break out a baseball bat, lol. We never like to hear what we are
doing
wrong with our children, but I am confident that my child's social skills
will keep her safe and attract good people as she gets older. Like me, she
would rather be inside drawing or on the computer or doing something with
me
than playing with these children who knock for her after school then their
mothers have an opinion of her.
I like the comments you offered me to say back. Thank you very helpful to
be armed with as well as ideas to keep in mind as to why people are saying
only what they know not really knowing their children. I'm not mentioning
of
course the other half of parents who always say "oh we love having her
over, she's so good, she's the most well behaved girl who comes over" or
such
stuff. I just say thank you. But a lot of them dont "get" what unschooling
is and think that "homeschooling" is a luxury we have taken because I'm
not
working.
But to answer your question, my daughter does get stressed out when she
hears these questions or comments, but about going out? no, we usually
pick
what we want to do if an exhibit or convention comes to town. We LOVE
Harry
Potter, the books and movies, so we love to frequent the exhibit and hang
out there always seeing new things. (Its one of the things in New York
right
now) and we enjoy the train rides together as well, talking or reading
together, walking through the city, here or new York, if there's a time we
get
bored of it, we go home.
Funny i find myself explaining to you, in hopes to give you more insight
but yet wondering if i do these these things with outside strangers.
Bullying
is something that can happen in or out of school. To parents and children
alike. But i will definitely try to be more confident when answering these
questions, raised eyebrows and high pitched endings a to questions have a
way of unnerving me though, i'm working on the armor with all your help
here, lol thank you:)
-Lynne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
AngelOvFaith@...
Yes i would love to read that as well on Robyn's presentation.
I agree, ever since children have started being given cell
phones, my own included, there are unwritten rules to follow. All parents
of
any orientation may talk with their children about this. I even knew as a
child when i got a private line for my room. I just prefer parents to come
to
me before taking it out on the children involved or taking phones away.
As far as social workers, this has always crossed my mind, and elevates my
fears. People have told me this can happen when boxes fill up more than
half a living room, or a fridge not being filled with food and drinks. So we
try to mind our business
when those things are going on with moving or a monetary issue, and I
agree
how we present ourselves makes a difference. Its always good to be aware
of
the "dark trails" that could happen. I'm glad mentioned that side of was
mentioned
-Lynne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I agree, ever since children have started being given cell
phones, my own included, there are unwritten rules to follow. All parents
of
any orientation may talk with their children about this. I even knew as a
child when i got a private line for my room. I just prefer parents to come
to
me before taking it out on the children involved or taking phones away.
As far as social workers, this has always crossed my mind, and elevates my
fears. People have told me this can happen when boxes fill up more than
half a living room, or a fridge not being filled with food and drinks. So we
try to mind our business
when those things are going on with moving or a monetary issue, and I
agree
how we present ourselves makes a difference. Its always good to be aware
of
the "dark trails" that could happen. I'm glad mentioned that side of was
mentioned
-Lynne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
AngelOvFaith@...
Yes I did ask her to ask her friends their own times, which may have caused
that problem, I know the 2 girls in the situation described had just got
new cell phones for christmas and were calling one another, since one had
"pinger" with on her phone and they were giggly about it and i should've put
a stop to it. since this i have asked parents myself and discussed it with
them.
-Lynne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that problem, I know the 2 girls in the situation described had just got
new cell phones for christmas and were calling one another, since one had
"pinger" with on her phone and they were giggly about it and i should've put
a stop to it. since this i have asked parents myself and discussed it with
them.
-Lynne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
AngelOvFaith@...
Robyn, I like that you added a new way to answer for family, for those who
love or are truly concerned, and how to handle it delicately. Often I
forget and get more defensive with my own mother and tend to whine at her
"mom!
we know what we are doing," lol, and ive given her all the books i bought
or show her websites, etc. The older relatives get very worried yes, and
then there are some who have heard about it and know good things.
Before my grandparents passed I remember on her street there was a house
amidst the row homes where a family lived that may have either homeschooled
or unschooled, im not sure i wish i had the chance to know them, but it was
the only house where the front porch was a intricate herb garden with
pretty twinkly lights and benches and pillows where i would see 3 teens
always
sitting up there reading and hanging out with their parents, they came
over
my grandparents once whiole i was pregnant, and i recall being fascinated
with their manners and how they were conservatively dressed and then would
go home, while the rest of the street every stoop was covered with teens
with beer bottles/cans, cursing, blaring obnoxious music, sparsely clad
clothing on the girls and teen girls carrying crying babies up and down
from
souped up cars. im not saying "good" children cant come from any other
that
home or unschooled families but it made an impact on me. and its glimpses
of
what im seeing in the 10 year old children in our neighborhood now. im
glad
my daughter is more interested in playing indoors. I have also
contemplated
writing the family as my mother still gets christmas cards from them.
-Lynne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
love or are truly concerned, and how to handle it delicately. Often I
forget and get more defensive with my own mother and tend to whine at her
"mom!
we know what we are doing," lol, and ive given her all the books i bought
or show her websites, etc. The older relatives get very worried yes, and
then there are some who have heard about it and know good things.
Before my grandparents passed I remember on her street there was a house
amidst the row homes where a family lived that may have either homeschooled
or unschooled, im not sure i wish i had the chance to know them, but it was
the only house where the front porch was a intricate herb garden with
pretty twinkly lights and benches and pillows where i would see 3 teens
always
sitting up there reading and hanging out with their parents, they came
over
my grandparents once whiole i was pregnant, and i recall being fascinated
with their manners and how they were conservatively dressed and then would
go home, while the rest of the street every stoop was covered with teens
with beer bottles/cans, cursing, blaring obnoxious music, sparsely clad
clothing on the girls and teen girls carrying crying babies up and down
from
souped up cars. im not saying "good" children cant come from any other
that
home or unschooled families but it made an impact on me. and its glimpses
of
what im seeing in the 10 year old children in our neighborhood now. im
glad
my daughter is more interested in playing indoors. I have also
contemplated
writing the family as my mother still gets christmas cards from them.
-Lynne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
AngelOvFaith@...
===It must be difficult living with so much doubt. I think it would help to
step back from the idea of unschooling if you're not able to feel
confident that what you're doing is awesome for your daughter. Step back from a big
idea like unschooling and take smaller steps that you can feel confident
of. Sometimes people get so caught up in the big picture that they've heard
about, that they miss all the little things that come together to make the
big picture. Without their own little things building their own big
picture, they can find themselves trying to live someone else's big picture, not
really understanding why, unable to *know* that it makes sense or to feel
confident about it.
Take more time to really see and get to know your daughter. What does your
daughter love to do?, what makes her light up with joy?, what does she
talk about at night when all is quiet? Can you help her explore those things,
help her feel delight and joy many times a day. If she has lived with a lot
of chaos, it will help if you listen sensitively, as she begins to become
more aware of her own feelings and desires.====
While I do appreciate the recap of my posts of insecurities from 2012 year
on... i realize i havnt posted anything positive on here since my divorce,
and turn of life events, which is quite different form who i am and how i
came to be here on this list form meeting a lot of people at a conference,
while i was very happy and positive. while there may have been indications
for some to re examine unschooling as a whole, I must respond with, I DO
know my daughter, she and I have been through hell and back together, are
best friends and havnt been apart at all in years except for an occasional
sleepover (which im usually hosting) or girl scout camp. I can say yes to all
the questions about knowing what she wants, like and dlights in. that I do
honestly believe the only reason Im going through the doubts and fears that
I am have been due to geographically where we were placed, and now living,
and that unschooling DOES work and thrive IN our home, and the reason i
deal with so many naysayers is because the other single mothers or neighbors
around me couldnt imagine not having school to fall back on so they can
have their kids be somewhere so they may continue drinking, drugging and
sleeping around. doing things with their children simply to see them light up
with joy like taking them to see a christmas tree lighting (lol) is not
something they care to do or bother to attend even when i bring their children
with me, and if i hadnt fallen on rough times finacially and been placed in
such an area of poverty, grief and rampant drug use, and people who are
nothing like me, if we were perhaps able to be around a community of other
homeschoolers, let alone unschoolers, i doubt i would have to answer to as
much as i do. there is a group pending now waiting to be approved to start off
that is a branch of unschoolers in a suburban area of my city but we are
still waiting as there is no train or bus to that suburban area for that. I
do listen, we are sensitive, and im not going to put my child in the public
school down the road just to get through my own uncertainty and money
problems look up, because i DO KNOW we have something special here, i just dont
like the people we are surrounded by. if i came here for support seeming
too negative or fearful its not my intention.
-Lynne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
step back from the idea of unschooling if you're not able to feel
confident that what you're doing is awesome for your daughter. Step back from a big
idea like unschooling and take smaller steps that you can feel confident
of. Sometimes people get so caught up in the big picture that they've heard
about, that they miss all the little things that come together to make the
big picture. Without their own little things building their own big
picture, they can find themselves trying to live someone else's big picture, not
really understanding why, unable to *know* that it makes sense or to feel
confident about it.
Take more time to really see and get to know your daughter. What does your
daughter love to do?, what makes her light up with joy?, what does she
talk about at night when all is quiet? Can you help her explore those things,
help her feel delight and joy many times a day. If she has lived with a lot
of chaos, it will help if you listen sensitively, as she begins to become
more aware of her own feelings and desires.====
While I do appreciate the recap of my posts of insecurities from 2012 year
on... i realize i havnt posted anything positive on here since my divorce,
and turn of life events, which is quite different form who i am and how i
came to be here on this list form meeting a lot of people at a conference,
while i was very happy and positive. while there may have been indications
for some to re examine unschooling as a whole, I must respond with, I DO
know my daughter, she and I have been through hell and back together, are
best friends and havnt been apart at all in years except for an occasional
sleepover (which im usually hosting) or girl scout camp. I can say yes to all
the questions about knowing what she wants, like and dlights in. that I do
honestly believe the only reason Im going through the doubts and fears that
I am have been due to geographically where we were placed, and now living,
and that unschooling DOES work and thrive IN our home, and the reason i
deal with so many naysayers is because the other single mothers or neighbors
around me couldnt imagine not having school to fall back on so they can
have their kids be somewhere so they may continue drinking, drugging and
sleeping around. doing things with their children simply to see them light up
with joy like taking them to see a christmas tree lighting (lol) is not
something they care to do or bother to attend even when i bring their children
with me, and if i hadnt fallen on rough times finacially and been placed in
such an area of poverty, grief and rampant drug use, and people who are
nothing like me, if we were perhaps able to be around a community of other
homeschoolers, let alone unschoolers, i doubt i would have to answer to as
much as i do. there is a group pending now waiting to be approved to start off
that is a branch of unschoolers in a suburban area of my city but we are
still waiting as there is no train or bus to that suburban area for that. I
do listen, we are sensitive, and im not going to put my child in the public
school down the road just to get through my own uncertainty and money
problems look up, because i DO KNOW we have something special here, i just dont
like the people we are surrounded by. if i came here for support seeming
too negative or fearful its not my intention.
-Lynne
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I agree, ever since children have started being given cell
phones, my own included, there are unwritten rules to follow. -=-
If you think of it as being courteous and considerate, it's not about rules.
-=-All parents of any orientation may talk with their children about this. -=-
Any parent who has not talked to a child about phone courtesy shouldn't be letting the child use a phone.
-=-I even knew as a child when i got a private line for my room. -=-
Knew that there was etiquette involved? Knew that there were times when it was too late to call?
-=-I just prefer parents to come to me before taking it out on the children involved or taking phones away.-=-
It's none of your business, though, what other parents do with their own children.
When a child has been rude here, I more often speak directly to the child than the parent. Sometimes it's because I don't want the kid to get into trouble with a parent who punishes. Sometimes it's because I don't think the parent is very good at helping them out.
No parent has an obligation to deal with any other parent.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
phones, my own included, there are unwritten rules to follow. -=-
If you think of it as being courteous and considerate, it's not about rules.
-=-All parents of any orientation may talk with their children about this. -=-
Any parent who has not talked to a child about phone courtesy shouldn't be letting the child use a phone.
-=-I even knew as a child when i got a private line for my room. -=-
Knew that there was etiquette involved? Knew that there were times when it was too late to call?
-=-I just prefer parents to come to me before taking it out on the children involved or taking phones away.-=-
It's none of your business, though, what other parents do with their own children.
When a child has been rude here, I more often speak directly to the child than the parent. Sometimes it's because I don't want the kid to get into trouble with a parent who punishes. Sometimes it's because I don't think the parent is very good at helping them out.
No parent has an obligation to deal with any other parent.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
CASS KOTRBA
I think it sounds like you and your daughter are having an exciting adventure together. I would imagine she's learning a ton of life lessons in being a part of this divorce and watching you become an advocate for yourself. As long as you are able to maintain an upbeat, fun attitude about it I can imagine the two of you having lots of fun finding creative ways to save money and have fun on a small budget. I grew up without a lot of money and I was fortunate that my parents were pretty creative and we didn't feel deprived for the most part (of physical pleasures, definitely longed for love and attention). That creativity came out of a need to stretch a dollar but it is a gift that still permeates my life. There is a sense of power and contentedness from knowing how to survive on a budget and from making your own things, whether that be graham crackers, clothing and accessories, finding something that other people think is garbage and giving it new life or whatever. I remember my parents saving old candles and melting down the wax to make colorful new ones. I remember having a sense of wonder and excitement when looking at that box of old candles. What kind of wonderful creations would we make from those raw materials? There is a reality show called "Dirty Money" where two NYC brothers take street finds and discarded items and give them the most amazing new lives. There are some scenes here: http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/other-shows/videos/dirty-money-cart-for-sale.htm<http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/other-shows/videos/dirty-money-cart-for-sale.htm>
I am a people pleaser myself and I do not feel like I have a responsibility to share the details of our lives with other people. I don't feel like I have the strength or confidence to announce to folks "Hey we're doing something different over here!" cuz most folks find that to be very threatening to their own status quo. 99% of the time when it comes up I just tell people that we homeschool. Most people get an overwhelmed look in their eyes just thinking about the idea and they do not want to hear more. People have a preconceived idea of what homeschooling is so I just let them make that assumption. Only one time have I been pressed for more information and that was at an event at a friend's house when two moms cornered me and asked how it was going. I like both of the women and consider them friends so I felt comfortable to open up to them. The main thing they wanted to know was "do they listen to you?". When I said "no" and explained that we are taking a different approach you could see the relief in both mom's eyes. What they were really saying to me was "I can't make my children mind me and I'm going to feel like an utter failure if you tell me that you have." I explained to them a bit about the unschooling philosophy and they both felt reassured that there was no secret way I had stumbled onto to make the children obedient.
So I would say have fun with your daughter and try not to get drawn into detailed conversations about unschooling with people. I portray an air of "this is working for us, we are happy and we are not soliciting opinions on the matter". It's easy for me to portray that because that's how I feel. The more I believe in myself, my instincts and my ability to take care of my family the stronger I feel within myself. Let your daughter's laughter and joy wash over you like a healing balm and take pride in knowing that you have given her the opportunity to feel that sense of safety and happiness. You have a lot to be proud of!! And lots and lots of great memory making opportunities ahead of you!
Best of luck,
Cass
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am a people pleaser myself and I do not feel like I have a responsibility to share the details of our lives with other people. I don't feel like I have the strength or confidence to announce to folks "Hey we're doing something different over here!" cuz most folks find that to be very threatening to their own status quo. 99% of the time when it comes up I just tell people that we homeschool. Most people get an overwhelmed look in their eyes just thinking about the idea and they do not want to hear more. People have a preconceived idea of what homeschooling is so I just let them make that assumption. Only one time have I been pressed for more information and that was at an event at a friend's house when two moms cornered me and asked how it was going. I like both of the women and consider them friends so I felt comfortable to open up to them. The main thing they wanted to know was "do they listen to you?". When I said "no" and explained that we are taking a different approach you could see the relief in both mom's eyes. What they were really saying to me was "I can't make my children mind me and I'm going to feel like an utter failure if you tell me that you have." I explained to them a bit about the unschooling philosophy and they both felt reassured that there was no secret way I had stumbled onto to make the children obedient.
So I would say have fun with your daughter and try not to get drawn into detailed conversations about unschooling with people. I portray an air of "this is working for us, we are happy and we are not soliciting opinions on the matter". It's easy for me to portray that because that's how I feel. The more I believe in myself, my instincts and my ability to take care of my family the stronger I feel within myself. Let your daughter's laughter and joy wash over you like a healing balm and take pride in knowing that you have given her the opportunity to feel that sense of safety and happiness. You have a lot to be proud of!! And lots and lots of great memory making opportunities ahead of you!
Best of luck,
Cass
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-while there may have been indications
for some to re examine unschooling as a whole, I must respond with, I DO
know my daughter, -=-
If you're not interested in examining unschooling as a whole, this list won't be helpful to you, nor will you be an asset to the list.
It's not about your daughter. It's about the principles of unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
for some to re examine unschooling as a whole, I must respond with, I DO
know my daughter, -=-
If you're not interested in examining unschooling as a whole, this list won't be helpful to you, nor will you be an asset to the list.
It's not about your daughter. It's about the principles of unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
D. Regan
> -=- ...I DO know my daughter, she and I have been through hell and back together, are best friends... -=-Those kinds of experiences can result in strong bonds forming. I think of the types of relationships that can form in war zones. People can form strong bonds through the shared experience, through finding comfort in each other when others do not understand or relate to what they have been through.
However people who have lived through those kinds of experiences as children, in which the adults around them are frequently panicking, fearful, angry or bitter, often look back with regret at a 'missed' childhood. They have often put their natural needs aside for extended periods, and functioned on some sort of emergency mode much of the time.
Children prosper when parents are able to provide enough sense of safety, calmness and support, that feelings of peace and joy are close at hand. From there the business of childhood - exploring and learning about the world can progress unimpeded by stress. Stress is a distraction from the natural flow of curiosity, focus, joy, excitement, engagement, creativity, emotional awareness, learning...
The more peace and mindfulness I bring in my home, the more all those good things swirl around.
Debbie.
Meredith
AngelOvFaith@... wrote:
---Meredith
>> One girl the same age called her "pathetic that you have to let your momSchool kids say things like that to each other. I remember comments like that from when I was a schoolgirl, decades ago - about kids who had to check in, girls who couldn't wear make-up and shorts skirts, that sort of thing. The "right answer" in school circles is to then complain about how horrible one's parents are and plot ways around them. That might be useful information to pass on to your daughter, that if she wants to blend in a bit more, she could complain about "having to" check in with you.
> know". For some reason this is seen this way and i'm not sure why.
>sheIf she doesn't want to play and doesn't want to hurt their feelings, she can say she has to do homeschool right now - she didn't get her work done in time. Again, that makes her seem a little more "normal" in the eyes of other kids - not the homeschool part, but the fact that she'd be expected to finish school work before playing with friends.
> would rather be inside drawing or on the computer or doing something with
> me
> than playing with these children who knock for her after school
>a lot of them dont "get" what unschoolingAnd they're right - homeschooling Is a luxury and unschooling even more so. There are places it's not possible, places it's not legal. And even in places where it's easy to home/unschool not everyone can pull together enough resources to do so.
> is and think that "homeschooling" is a luxury we have taken because I'm
> not
> working.
---Meredith