self esteem?
Lisa
I read something that has me thinking unfavorably about a certain behavior of my son's right now, and I would like some feedback.
Joe will be 10 in a week. We put him in preschool and he was kicked out of the first one and I pulled him out of the second one after the teacher made it very clear to me every day that she could not handle him.
It was then that I looked into homeschooling and discovered unschooling. We have been unschooling since then, but we had a LOT of deschooling and paradigm shifting to make over the last 6 years.
I think we are doing quite well these days. Joe's father had doubts about unschooling for a long time, but now that Joe is reading (easily and fluidly, and it seemed to happen almost overnight) he is pretty solidly on board.
Anyway, the group of behaviors that bother me is that Joe is constantly attention seeking, rarely stops talking, and always wants someone (myself, my husband, or a friend) to watch him do what he is doing.
I read something that flat out says this kind of behavior is caused by parents who over-praise when the child is young and it causes a self esteem issue in the child who now is constantly seeking out this kind of praise.
And I can see it. Joe will show me something he did and when I nod or smile or say cool he says "Is it impressive?"
John and I did and do praise Joe a lot, possibly for a number of reasons. 1 reason is that we both are genuinely impressed by him - we think he is quite handsome and quite brilliant and both of us are by nature doting with our children.
Another reason may have something to do with his personality - thinking back on it I remember that Joe was very attached to us from the day he was born and always seemed to need much more attention than the children around him.
I remember watching young children at the park and and the mall who could be put down and left in one spot and told to stay there ... AND THEY WOULD. I would be amazed by this behavior. Joseph NEVER would have sat in one spot and watched me go off a few feet away and do something that didn't involve him.
Joseph talked early, and required almost constant interaction from the day he was born and constant conversation from the day he could talk.
Interestingly enough, I have a 4 month old and he also needs pretty constant interaction. On days like today I wonder are we causing this? Is it just genetic? Are we raising children with low self esteem by something we are doing or not doing?
I am pretty sensitive by nature, as is Joe. I also was quite a talker (constantly getting in trouble in school), but I don't know if I was an attention seeker in the way I am describing Joe to be because my parents were abusive and I don't remember ever being attached to them really (although I'm sure I was, but certainly not like Joe is to us - me especially).
My husband is very high-energy and was diagnosed with ADHD and put on ritalin back in 1969.
So this could all easily be genetic and something that I didn't "cause" per se.
It doesn't bother me to listen to him and it doesn't bother me to give him the attention he needs, but it does bother me to think that I am causing him self esteem issues by giving him this attention or that some sort of damage is already done because of how we have already treated him.
Thank you in advance for any thoughts. Lisa
Joe will be 10 in a week. We put him in preschool and he was kicked out of the first one and I pulled him out of the second one after the teacher made it very clear to me every day that she could not handle him.
It was then that I looked into homeschooling and discovered unschooling. We have been unschooling since then, but we had a LOT of deschooling and paradigm shifting to make over the last 6 years.
I think we are doing quite well these days. Joe's father had doubts about unschooling for a long time, but now that Joe is reading (easily and fluidly, and it seemed to happen almost overnight) he is pretty solidly on board.
Anyway, the group of behaviors that bother me is that Joe is constantly attention seeking, rarely stops talking, and always wants someone (myself, my husband, or a friend) to watch him do what he is doing.
I read something that flat out says this kind of behavior is caused by parents who over-praise when the child is young and it causes a self esteem issue in the child who now is constantly seeking out this kind of praise.
And I can see it. Joe will show me something he did and when I nod or smile or say cool he says "Is it impressive?"
John and I did and do praise Joe a lot, possibly for a number of reasons. 1 reason is that we both are genuinely impressed by him - we think he is quite handsome and quite brilliant and both of us are by nature doting with our children.
Another reason may have something to do with his personality - thinking back on it I remember that Joe was very attached to us from the day he was born and always seemed to need much more attention than the children around him.
I remember watching young children at the park and and the mall who could be put down and left in one spot and told to stay there ... AND THEY WOULD. I would be amazed by this behavior. Joseph NEVER would have sat in one spot and watched me go off a few feet away and do something that didn't involve him.
Joseph talked early, and required almost constant interaction from the day he was born and constant conversation from the day he could talk.
Interestingly enough, I have a 4 month old and he also needs pretty constant interaction. On days like today I wonder are we causing this? Is it just genetic? Are we raising children with low self esteem by something we are doing or not doing?
I am pretty sensitive by nature, as is Joe. I also was quite a talker (constantly getting in trouble in school), but I don't know if I was an attention seeker in the way I am describing Joe to be because my parents were abusive and I don't remember ever being attached to them really (although I'm sure I was, but certainly not like Joe is to us - me especially).
My husband is very high-energy and was diagnosed with ADHD and put on ritalin back in 1969.
So this could all easily be genetic and something that I didn't "cause" per se.
It doesn't bother me to listen to him and it doesn't bother me to give him the attention he needs, but it does bother me to think that I am causing him self esteem issues by giving him this attention or that some sort of damage is already done because of how we have already treated him.
Thank you in advance for any thoughts. Lisa
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 8, 2013, at 12:56 AM, Lisa wrote:
But that's not the only reason for it. In your son's case it sounds genetic.
You might try throwing in some "It must feel good to have accomplished that!" and other forms that revel in what he's feeling. But if right now he needs to hear you feel the same way, it's what he needs. It takes a while for kids to develop the understanding that other people can have different feelings than what they're having. That comes with maturity.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Anyway, the group of behaviors that bother me is that Joe is constantlyWhile it's not typical, it's not unusual. A big part of his enjoyment comes from sharing it with someone else. It sounds like he's on the far end of the extrovert scale ;-)
> attention seeking, rarely stops talking, and always wants someone
> (myself, my husband, or a friend) to watch him do what he is doing.
> I read something that flat out says this kind of behavior isPerhaps. If praise were the only form of affection a child could get their parent to give.
> caused by parents who over-praise when the child is young
But that's not the only reason for it. In your son's case it sounds genetic.
You might try throwing in some "It must feel good to have accomplished that!" and other forms that revel in what he's feeling. But if right now he needs to hear you feel the same way, it's what he needs. It takes a while for kids to develop the understanding that other people can have different feelings than what they're having. That comes with maturity.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Clatie
While I am by no means an expert, it seems that since one of the strongest needs a child has is to feel a sense of belonging and significance, you and your husband are filling that need. In terms of *self* esteem, though, if you are concerned, simply ask him how he feels about his own works. Perhaps if he begins to express his own thoughts on what he has done, in addition to how you see it, you will have a peek at how he esteems himself.
Meredith
"Lisa" <lisakleinweber@...> wrote:
Some people need more attention and human interaction than others. My stepson is like this. When he was a kid, when he was getting enough attention he was interacting with someone most of the day. When he wasn't getting enough attention he was Still interacting most of the day - clamoring, yelling, breaking things, hitting people... he Found ways to get more attention than was being offered, but it was hard on his self-esteem and hard on everyone around him.
Now, at 19, he's a very social person, but he doesn't need to be the center of attention all the time. He outgrew that in his teens, after some deschooling and unschooling and getting lots and lots of attention.
If there's any truth to that at all it's because kids who need a lot of attention clamor for it when it's not forthcoming - and maybe some parents respond to that with praise because it's all they can think to do. A case of correlation not being causality, or not in the way someone assumes right off the bat.
The adults I know who clamor for attention didn't get Nearly enough praise or positive regard as kids - they got a lot of neglect and some abuse. That's not a good recipe for self esteem.
---Meredith
>> Anyway, the group of behaviors that bother me is that Joe is constantly attention seeking, rarely stops talking, and always wants someone (myself, my husband, or a friend) to watch him do what he is doing.************
Some people need more attention and human interaction than others. My stepson is like this. When he was a kid, when he was getting enough attention he was interacting with someone most of the day. When he wasn't getting enough attention he was Still interacting most of the day - clamoring, yelling, breaking things, hitting people... he Found ways to get more attention than was being offered, but it was hard on his self-esteem and hard on everyone around him.
Now, at 19, he's a very social person, but he doesn't need to be the center of attention all the time. He outgrew that in his teens, after some deschooling and unschooling and getting lots and lots of attention.
> I read something that flat out says this kind of behavior is caused by parents who over-praise when the child is young and it causes a self esteem issue in the child who now is constantly seeking out this kind of praise.****************
If there's any truth to that at all it's because kids who need a lot of attention clamor for it when it's not forthcoming - and maybe some parents respond to that with praise because it's all they can think to do. A case of correlation not being causality, or not in the way someone assumes right off the bat.
The adults I know who clamor for attention didn't get Nearly enough praise or positive regard as kids - they got a lot of neglect and some abuse. That's not a good recipe for self esteem.
---Meredith
Robyn Coburn
This is very interesting to me, because I have recently been doing some
reading about praise, self esteem and inner motivation in a new book,
"Nurture Shock: New Thinking About Children" which critically examines
recent studies and academic literature about child development and
education. It is both interesting and frustrating, since almost all the
problems the kids cited were having could be solved by radical unschooling,
or even just relaxed home schooling with an attentive parent. But that is
another story.
The part that is relevant to this issue is the research about praise. The
short summary is that praise that is focused on physical or intrinsic
characteristics, that are out of a child's control, ends up in the long
term being detrimental to their motivation rather than lifting their self
esteem. EG telling a child they are smart in a general way.
The kind of praise that is helpful - and remember this is in the context of
school so the markers were things like grade improvements over time, but I
can see the relevance - is to praise something that the child is in control
of, like "I can see you really worked hard on that".
However the whole thing is still a bit manipulative.
What I do with Jayn is have a real conversation. If she is showing me
something that she is proud of, at the moment often some new costume item
her WoW character has won, I will make a specific remark about it, or ask a
question about how she accomplished it. Sometimes I can't see what is
different at all, and so I can ask her what I am looking at.
"Smile and nod" are always signs with me that I am not fully present, and
Jayn will pretty much always call me on it if it happens.
Robyn L. Coburn
Design Team www.ScraPerfect.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
reading about praise, self esteem and inner motivation in a new book,
"Nurture Shock: New Thinking About Children" which critically examines
recent studies and academic literature about child development and
education. It is both interesting and frustrating, since almost all the
problems the kids cited were having could be solved by radical unschooling,
or even just relaxed home schooling with an attentive parent. But that is
another story.
The part that is relevant to this issue is the research about praise. The
short summary is that praise that is focused on physical or intrinsic
characteristics, that are out of a child's control, ends up in the long
term being detrimental to their motivation rather than lifting their self
esteem. EG telling a child they are smart in a general way.
The kind of praise that is helpful - and remember this is in the context of
school so the markers were things like grade improvements over time, but I
can see the relevance - is to praise something that the child is in control
of, like "I can see you really worked hard on that".
However the whole thing is still a bit manipulative.
What I do with Jayn is have a real conversation. If she is showing me
something that she is proud of, at the moment often some new costume item
her WoW character has won, I will make a specific remark about it, or ask a
question about how she accomplished it. Sometimes I can't see what is
different at all, and so I can ask her what I am looking at.
"Smile and nod" are always signs with me that I am not fully present, and
Jayn will pretty much always call me on it if it happens.
Robyn L. Coburn
Design Team www.ScraPerfect.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
i think there's a really big difference between attention and praise, just
as there's a difference between attention seeking and praise seeking. in
my experience, there are many kids (and adults!) who need more, and more
focused, attention than others might, and we don't "create" that need by
giving attention - we get closer to filling the emotional cup so the need
feels met and they feel abundance around it. but we *can* inadvertently
create 'praise seeking" behavior by emphasizing praise as the bulk of our
attention, and especially when the praise is evaluative in nature - like
"that's impressive" as opposed to observational or personal in nature, such
as "wow i love the shades of blue you chose and how they swirls create a
sense of movement" - while criticism erodes self esteem mightily, so does
praise that removes the locus of accomplishment and evaluation from the
child to an extrinsic evaluator.
everything i've read about self esteem seems to indicate that self esteem
comes from competency/mastery, and from a general feeling of valuing
oneself separate and apart from accomplishments as well - so praise that's
externally evaluative in nature "good job" - can erode *self* esteem.
"punished by rewards" by alfie kohn, and "drive: the surprising truth
about what motivates us" by daniel pink are two books on this, though not
at all about unschooling. there's a short article about praise as well, by
alfie kohn (again, not an unschooler, or even supportive of it, but good
research in my opinion) http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm. there's
another book about depression, self esteem, and optimism, called "the
optimistic child" that has some interesting information about the roots of
self esteem and optimism.
lyla
as there's a difference between attention seeking and praise seeking. in
my experience, there are many kids (and adults!) who need more, and more
focused, attention than others might, and we don't "create" that need by
giving attention - we get closer to filling the emotional cup so the need
feels met and they feel abundance around it. but we *can* inadvertently
create 'praise seeking" behavior by emphasizing praise as the bulk of our
attention, and especially when the praise is evaluative in nature - like
"that's impressive" as opposed to observational or personal in nature, such
as "wow i love the shades of blue you chose and how they swirls create a
sense of movement" - while criticism erodes self esteem mightily, so does
praise that removes the locus of accomplishment and evaluation from the
child to an extrinsic evaluator.
everything i've read about self esteem seems to indicate that self esteem
comes from competency/mastery, and from a general feeling of valuing
oneself separate and apart from accomplishments as well - so praise that's
externally evaluative in nature "good job" - can erode *self* esteem.
"punished by rewards" by alfie kohn, and "drive: the surprising truth
about what motivates us" by daniel pink are two books on this, though not
at all about unschooling. there's a short article about praise as well, by
alfie kohn (again, not an unschooler, or even supportive of it, but good
research in my opinion) http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm. there's
another book about depression, self esteem, and optimism, called "the
optimistic child" that has some interesting information about the roots of
self esteem and optimism.
lyla
On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Robyn Coburn <dezignarob@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> This is very interesting to me, because I have recently been doing some
> reading about praise, self esteem and inner motivation in a new book,
> "Nurture Shock: New Thinking About Children" which critically examines
> recent studies and academic literature about child development and
> education. It is both interesting and frustrating, since almost all the
> problems the kids cited were having could be solved by radical unschooling,
> or even just relaxed home schooling with an attentive parent. But that is
> another story.
>
> The part that is relevant to this issue is the research about praise. The
> short summary is that praise that is focused on physical or intrinsic
> characteristics, that are out of a child's control, ends up in the long
> term being detrimental to their motivation rather than lifting their self
> esteem. EG telling a child they are smart in a general way.
>
> The kind of praise that is helpful - and remember this is in the context of
> school so the markers were things like grade improvements over time, but I
> can see the relevance - is to praise something that the child is in control
> of, like "I can see you really worked hard on that".
>
> However the whole thing is still a bit manipulative.
>
> What I do with Jayn is have a real conversation. If she is showing me
> something that she is proud of, at the moment often some new costume item
> her WoW character has won, I will make a specific remark about it, or ask a
> question about how she accomplished it. Sometimes I can't see what is
> different at all, and so I can ask her what I am looking at.
>
> "Smile and nod" are always signs with me that I am not fully present, and
> Jayn will pretty much always call me on it if it happens.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
> Design Team www.ScraPerfect.com
> www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
> www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
> www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]