RE: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Commentary on unschooling - "unschooler-worthy"
Katie Oxford
I heard about unschooling for the first time at conference last year and was
immediately hooked. I bought Sandra and Pam's books and read them both (one
took much longer than the other J). We have readily adopted some aspects and
are working through the others. However, I have found that when I mention
that we are unschooling to the homeschoolers I know, I either 1. get a blank
stare or a question of "what is that?", or 2. get grilled by someone who
wants to make sure I really am what I say I am. (Note: I want to
specifically exclude the HSC Campers from #2, they were fabulous! J)
For example, the first person I told that I was unschooling was a 'stranger'
who was at a Golfland playdate for a local group that provides classes to
homeschool kids. I think I quoted something from Sandra's book about how to
tell others about your decision to unschool, and she replied "Oh, you're a
"Dodd-er"" (in a very unkind tone). Taken aback, I said "No, I'm not an
anything-er", but I remember thinking how weird it was that after reading so
many words of finding joy, peace and calm, that these people could be so
downright aggressive towards their own. Several minutes later she approached
me again, noting that I couldn't possibly be an unschooler if I belonged to
this group that offered classes, to which I responded that my daughter was
taking a machine sewing class and then immediately felt irritated that I
felt like I needed to justify my 'lifestyle' to her.
Most recently it happened with that Christian list Sandra shared. I thought
it would be a great group for me to join for some additional resources. I
understand that they don't want someone joining the list just to spam or to
spew hate, but I was a little upset when they required me to answer
questions about my "stance" on spanking, media limits, food freedom and
bedtimes in order to join. I wasn't sure how to answer those questions. I'm
not sure I have a stance. If I said I spanked my kids when they were little,
would that mean I can't join? If I said I regretted it and don't do it
anymore, would that matter? If I said they had an approximate bedtime and
that I don't let them play video games until 8am because I tried a
free-for-all right away and they were waking up at 5am to get to the TV
first and then spending the rest of the day crying and melting down from
exhaustion would that exclude me? Should I have to provide that entire
explanation to be an good-enough unschooler to join the list?
To a new unschooler, it can sometimes feel like the pressure is immediate.
Maybe we hear all the do's and don'ts first because they are shared most
often, or maybe we hear them loudest because they go against what we are
currently doing and feeling in the most extreme way. Maybe the schoolish
pressure to succeed (or our take-charge, self-driven nature that makes us
decide it's worth all the work to be an unschooler) causes us to pursue the
loftiest or 'highest-ranked' goal, which is touted as radical unschooling,
before we or our families are ready. I feel the message (not necessarily
here) is sometimes "Yes you can unschool, but can you radically unschool?"
right from the get-go.
My husband says "There's always fanatics about everything." And I've taken
the road that I don't say I'm an unschooler much. I think that's sad. But
without much history to back me up or much visible success under my belt I'm
setting myself up for attack from those who feel they have to prove
unschooling it at least >this level< or higher.
I have many questions about how to live this new lifestyle with my kids and
my family, but I am still comfortable waiting and watching for now. I've
found that the questions in my head are changing from "Is it unschooling if
I.?" to "how can I solve this problem while maintaining the highest level of
respect and joy for everyone in the family?" I'm certainly not ready to give
advice or allay fears, but I am new and I suppose I will only be new once.
Maybe my feelings as one of the new ones here will help someone who has been
here a while to remember this time and speak truth to us while allowing us
some time to process and implement.
It's easy for me to see why this list may be frustrating for some. To belong
to this list demands change. It demands looking at yourself in the mirror,
and that's not always pleasant. It demands being able to hear criticism, and
then being able to move on from that point. But I can also see why so many
value this list because it is unwavering. People telling you what you want
to hear is nice, but only for a little while. Real friends tell the truth
and point out ugliness and beauty as it really is.
-Katie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
immediately hooked. I bought Sandra and Pam's books and read them both (one
took much longer than the other J). We have readily adopted some aspects and
are working through the others. However, I have found that when I mention
that we are unschooling to the homeschoolers I know, I either 1. get a blank
stare or a question of "what is that?", or 2. get grilled by someone who
wants to make sure I really am what I say I am. (Note: I want to
specifically exclude the HSC Campers from #2, they were fabulous! J)
For example, the first person I told that I was unschooling was a 'stranger'
who was at a Golfland playdate for a local group that provides classes to
homeschool kids. I think I quoted something from Sandra's book about how to
tell others about your decision to unschool, and she replied "Oh, you're a
"Dodd-er"" (in a very unkind tone). Taken aback, I said "No, I'm not an
anything-er", but I remember thinking how weird it was that after reading so
many words of finding joy, peace and calm, that these people could be so
downright aggressive towards their own. Several minutes later she approached
me again, noting that I couldn't possibly be an unschooler if I belonged to
this group that offered classes, to which I responded that my daughter was
taking a machine sewing class and then immediately felt irritated that I
felt like I needed to justify my 'lifestyle' to her.
Most recently it happened with that Christian list Sandra shared. I thought
it would be a great group for me to join for some additional resources. I
understand that they don't want someone joining the list just to spam or to
spew hate, but I was a little upset when they required me to answer
questions about my "stance" on spanking, media limits, food freedom and
bedtimes in order to join. I wasn't sure how to answer those questions. I'm
not sure I have a stance. If I said I spanked my kids when they were little,
would that mean I can't join? If I said I regretted it and don't do it
anymore, would that matter? If I said they had an approximate bedtime and
that I don't let them play video games until 8am because I tried a
free-for-all right away and they were waking up at 5am to get to the TV
first and then spending the rest of the day crying and melting down from
exhaustion would that exclude me? Should I have to provide that entire
explanation to be an good-enough unschooler to join the list?
To a new unschooler, it can sometimes feel like the pressure is immediate.
Maybe we hear all the do's and don'ts first because they are shared most
often, or maybe we hear them loudest because they go against what we are
currently doing and feeling in the most extreme way. Maybe the schoolish
pressure to succeed (or our take-charge, self-driven nature that makes us
decide it's worth all the work to be an unschooler) causes us to pursue the
loftiest or 'highest-ranked' goal, which is touted as radical unschooling,
before we or our families are ready. I feel the message (not necessarily
here) is sometimes "Yes you can unschool, but can you radically unschool?"
right from the get-go.
My husband says "There's always fanatics about everything." And I've taken
the road that I don't say I'm an unschooler much. I think that's sad. But
without much history to back me up or much visible success under my belt I'm
setting myself up for attack from those who feel they have to prove
unschooling it at least >this level< or higher.
I have many questions about how to live this new lifestyle with my kids and
my family, but I am still comfortable waiting and watching for now. I've
found that the questions in my head are changing from "Is it unschooling if
I.?" to "how can I solve this problem while maintaining the highest level of
respect and joy for everyone in the family?" I'm certainly not ready to give
advice or allay fears, but I am new and I suppose I will only be new once.
Maybe my feelings as one of the new ones here will help someone who has been
here a while to remember this time and speak truth to us while allowing us
some time to process and implement.
It's easy for me to see why this list may be frustrating for some. To belong
to this list demands change. It demands looking at yourself in the mirror,
and that's not always pleasant. It demands being able to hear criticism, and
then being able to move on from that point. But I can also see why so many
value this list because it is unwavering. People telling you what you want
to hear is nice, but only for a little while. Real friends tell the truth
and point out ugliness and beauty as it really is.
-Katie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-she replied "Oh, you're a
"Dodd-er"" (in a very unkind tone).-=-
Years back some people said "Doddoheads" (reference Rush Limbo's "dittoheads") and "Sandranistas."
When the AOL discussions were the place to be, I was always talking about John Holt. Helen Hegener made fun of me for being "a big Holtie." Recently (in that discussion) she seemed to harken back to the Holt phase with fondness, but she wasn't nice to me about being a Holt fan, and when she had an opportunity to hear him, she didn't. She did go up to him and say she was planning to start a magazine, and she hoped he didn't mind (since Growing Without Schooling was the only thing going then). He said no, he thought it would be good. (This i've heard recounted from others and, directly from Helen (written) both.)
I guess people will think "I can hear that person later," but people don't always live to be heard later.
There's a profound difference between volunteering to help people for free and setting up to make a living off of them. It's not in the same realm at all. Of course magazine editors/owners who want to make money will try to appease everyone with $30. I'm fine if people read here, and I'm fine if they don't. It's a little like tending a well. There's no reason to advertise that you have a well. The water might be all dirty if too many people tromp up. But those who find it should find it in good shape, and clean. I'm not charging for the water. People helped me freely in La Leche League, in Adult Children of Alcoholics, and I'm not in those groups anymore, but the legacy of groups helping people who come to groups remains. I'm willing to tend the well for the foreseeable future.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"Dodd-er"" (in a very unkind tone).-=-
Years back some people said "Doddoheads" (reference Rush Limbo's "dittoheads") and "Sandranistas."
When the AOL discussions were the place to be, I was always talking about John Holt. Helen Hegener made fun of me for being "a big Holtie." Recently (in that discussion) she seemed to harken back to the Holt phase with fondness, but she wasn't nice to me about being a Holt fan, and when she had an opportunity to hear him, she didn't. She did go up to him and say she was planning to start a magazine, and she hoped he didn't mind (since Growing Without Schooling was the only thing going then). He said no, he thought it would be good. (This i've heard recounted from others and, directly from Helen (written) both.)
I guess people will think "I can hear that person later," but people don't always live to be heard later.
There's a profound difference between volunteering to help people for free and setting up to make a living off of them. It's not in the same realm at all. Of course magazine editors/owners who want to make money will try to appease everyone with $30. I'm fine if people read here, and I'm fine if they don't. It's a little like tending a well. There's no reason to advertise that you have a well. The water might be all dirty if too many people tromp up. But those who find it should find it in good shape, and clean. I'm not charging for the water. People helped me freely in La Leche League, in Adult Children of Alcoholics, and I'm not in those groups anymore, but the legacy of groups helping people who come to groups remains. I'm willing to tend the well for the foreseeable future.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angeline Taylor
I just want to say wow on so many things in just the two postings from
Katie and Sandra both....
On Katie's - I am so with you on all you said about being a new
unschooler.
often, or maybe we hear them loudest because they go against what we are
currently doing and feeling in the most extreme way. Maybe the schoolish
pressure to succeed (or our take-charge, self-driven nature that makes us
decide it's worth all the work to be an unschooler) causes us to pursue the
loftiest or 'highest-ranked' goal, which is touted as radical unschooling,
before we or our families are ready. <<
I find this so true for myself and stated so well. I felt this way at
first.. I wanted a handbook, someone to tell me how to apply the "rules and
what not".
Now I find that I am at a point a year or so later that I have goals, some
I have yet to reach but still I can see that unschooling is working for my
child and family.
She's learning, she's interested. Sure I'm not perfect but all of it's
coming together and I can see it and where I want to be without feeling
like this pressure is on me to get it right this very minute.
my family, but I am still comfortable waiting and watching for now. I've
found that the questions in my head are changing from "Is it unschooling if
I.?" to "how can I solve this problem while maintaining the highest level of
respect and joy for everyone in the family?" I'm certainly not ready to give
advice or allay fears, but I am new and I suppose I will only be new once.
Maybe my feelings as one of the new ones here will help someone who has been
here a while to remember this time and speak truth to us while allowing us
some time to process and implement.<<
There is no perfect method or exact way, it's not a one size fits all but
what is? Really? I loved Sandra's book and after reading it I think that's
when it all started to come together for me and realize it's more about the
outcome, the intention, getting it right for our family and succeeding
where it works for us. I think there is a basic philosophy, sometimes a
hard line of what not to do and what to do, but from Sandra and others in
this group its about family first, keeping your marriage happy (I love this
positiveness) and getting everything in sync with basic principals. It
takes time and with everything that's true.
Somewhere (perhaps a Facebook group) it was mentioned the idea about
children getting frustrated with something and saying "I can't do this, I'm
not good at this or that" and someone mentioned to remind them that they
just haven't practiced the thing or ability enough to be perfect at it. I
love that idea and we need to remember it ourselves, this is a new thing,
and yeah I'm not as good at it as Sandra or someone else, but it's new. I
need practice and practice takes time. And I think that's where the idea of
deschooling comes in. That's time to just get over all the gitters and
self doubt and fear and punishment we give ourselves on not just being able
to accept this new thought process and be perfect at it immediately.
to this list demands change. It demands looking at yourself in the mirror,
and that's not always pleasant. It demands being able to hear criticism, and
then being able to move on from that point. But I can also see why so many
value this list because it is unwavering. People telling you what you want
to hear is nice, but only for a little while. Real friends tell the truth
and point out ugliness and beauty as it really is.<<
Amen Katie, I agree wholeheartedly. I having posted much and I don't read
everything that comes through the list anymore, but I'm finding my path and
I like that things are challenged and I'm sure my comments will be if
they're off colored or just plain needing to be. I don't want someone to
tell me I'm perfect when I know I'm not and I won't grow from that either.
In regards to Sandra's comments...
**
seemed to be anti-Dodd... sorry Sandra, but I didn't know too much about
you and if anything the fact that you were mentioned often even if it was
in a derogatory fashion gave me reason to look you up and find out more.
It led me here and for that I'm thankful. I left the group, I saw no
reason to argue with them or to stay for they have their personal feelings
and for whatever reason they are entitled to them and I couldn't find
anything to validate their animosity.
about way. When I read his book "Teach your own" I was moved to tears (I'm
not an overly emotional person, more a hard boiled type! lol) because one I
knew I would never meet this genius of a man and how much the world gained
by his presence and how much it lost by his death and second that what he
understood and described was so alive and true and so basically fundamental
to children and human nature in general. When I read his writings I swear I
can almost hear his heart beating because the words just seem to be so
alive within him. He wasn't in it for the money, he was in it for the love
of it. Some people dream of hearing Martin Luther King Jr, or meeting
Einstein, but John Holt is every bit a hero to me.
I guess I just needed to share, this topic so hit a place in my heart!
- Angie
mom to Meadoux 6yrs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Katie and Sandra both....
On Katie's - I am so with you on all you said about being a new
unschooler.
>>To a new unschooler, it can sometimes feel like the pressure is immediate.Maybe we hear all the do's and don'ts first because they are shared most
often, or maybe we hear them loudest because they go against what we are
currently doing and feeling in the most extreme way. Maybe the schoolish
pressure to succeed (or our take-charge, self-driven nature that makes us
decide it's worth all the work to be an unschooler) causes us to pursue the
loftiest or 'highest-ranked' goal, which is touted as radical unschooling,
before we or our families are ready. <<
I find this so true for myself and stated so well. I felt this way at
first.. I wanted a handbook, someone to tell me how to apply the "rules and
what not".
Now I find that I am at a point a year or so later that I have goals, some
I have yet to reach but still I can see that unschooling is working for my
child and family.
She's learning, she's interested. Sure I'm not perfect but all of it's
coming together and I can see it and where I want to be without feeling
like this pressure is on me to get it right this very minute.
>>I have many questions about how to live this new lifestyle with my kidsand
my family, but I am still comfortable waiting and watching for now. I've
found that the questions in my head are changing from "Is it unschooling if
I.?" to "how can I solve this problem while maintaining the highest level of
respect and joy for everyone in the family?" I'm certainly not ready to give
advice or allay fears, but I am new and I suppose I will only be new once.
Maybe my feelings as one of the new ones here will help someone who has been
here a while to remember this time and speak truth to us while allowing us
some time to process and implement.<<
There is no perfect method or exact way, it's not a one size fits all but
what is? Really? I loved Sandra's book and after reading it I think that's
when it all started to come together for me and realize it's more about the
outcome, the intention, getting it right for our family and succeeding
where it works for us. I think there is a basic philosophy, sometimes a
hard line of what not to do and what to do, but from Sandra and others in
this group its about family first, keeping your marriage happy (I love this
positiveness) and getting everything in sync with basic principals. It
takes time and with everything that's true.
Somewhere (perhaps a Facebook group) it was mentioned the idea about
children getting frustrated with something and saying "I can't do this, I'm
not good at this or that" and someone mentioned to remind them that they
just haven't practiced the thing or ability enough to be perfect at it. I
love that idea and we need to remember it ourselves, this is a new thing,
and yeah I'm not as good at it as Sandra or someone else, but it's new. I
need practice and practice takes time. And I think that's where the idea of
deschooling comes in. That's time to just get over all the gitters and
self doubt and fear and punishment we give ourselves on not just being able
to accept this new thought process and be perfect at it immediately.
>>It's easy for me to see why this list may be frustrating for some. Tobelong
to this list demands change. It demands looking at yourself in the mirror,
and that's not always pleasant. It demands being able to hear criticism, and
then being able to move on from that point. But I can also see why so many
value this list because it is unwavering. People telling you what you want
to hear is nice, but only for a little while. Real friends tell the truth
and point out ugliness and beauty as it really is.<<
Amen Katie, I agree wholeheartedly. I having posted much and I don't read
everything that comes through the list anymore, but I'm finding my path and
I like that things are challenged and I'm sure my comments will be if
they're off colored or just plain needing to be. I don't want someone to
tell me I'm perfect when I know I'm not and I won't grow from that either.
In regards to Sandra's comments...
**
> >>-=-she replied "Oh, you're aI joined a group when I first found out about unschooling and the members
>
> "Dodd-er"" (in a very unkind tone).-=-
>
> Years back some people said "Doddoheads" (reference Rush Limbo's
> "dittoheads") and "Sandranistas."<<
>
seemed to be anti-Dodd... sorry Sandra, but I didn't know too much about
you and if anything the fact that you were mentioned often even if it was
in a derogatory fashion gave me reason to look you up and find out more.
It led me here and for that I'm thankful. I left the group, I saw no
reason to argue with them or to stay for they have their personal feelings
and for whatever reason they are entitled to them and I couldn't find
anything to validate their animosity.
> >>I guess people will think "I can hear that person later," but peopleI got turned on to unschool because of John Holt, though in a very round
> don't always live to be heard later<<
>
about way. When I read his book "Teach your own" I was moved to tears (I'm
not an overly emotional person, more a hard boiled type! lol) because one I
knew I would never meet this genius of a man and how much the world gained
by his presence and how much it lost by his death and second that what he
understood and described was so alive and true and so basically fundamental
to children and human nature in general. When I read his writings I swear I
can almost hear his heart beating because the words just seem to be so
alive within him. He wasn't in it for the money, he was in it for the love
of it. Some people dream of hearing Martin Luther King Jr, or meeting
Einstein, but John Holt is every bit a hero to me.
I guess I just needed to share, this topic so hit a place in my heart!
- Angie
mom to Meadoux 6yrs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I loved Sandra's book and after reading it I think that's
when it all started to come together for me and realize it's more about the
outcome, the intention, getting it right for our family and succeeding
where it works for us. -=-
There's something almost magical built into that book, it turns out.
The second time you read it, it will seem like Volume 2!
If a year or two passes and you read it a third time, you won't even remember ever having seen some of that. Or if you do remember, you might notice it seems lame or nonsensical the first time, but reading it after a few years of unschooling, you can plug in your own examples and successes.
I didn't plan that, but it seems to be the way of it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
when it all started to come together for me and realize it's more about the
outcome, the intention, getting it right for our family and succeeding
where it works for us. -=-
There's something almost magical built into that book, it turns out.
The second time you read it, it will seem like Volume 2!
If a year or two passes and you read it a third time, you won't even remember ever having seen some of that. Or if you do remember, you might notice it seems lame or nonsensical the first time, but reading it after a few years of unschooling, you can plug in your own examples and successes.
I didn't plan that, but it seems to be the way of it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tori
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
I teach at a state university where folks are all up in arms wondering how to profit by offering curricula online the way Berkeley and MIT are doing it, but for free. They seem oblivious to the principles behind these scenarios. There's some serious anger about big name schools giving away something perceived as more valuable than what we're offering for sale. I sense a similar situation regarding unschooling.
Thank you, Sandra! And thanks to Joyce, Meredith, Jenny, Robin, and Connie...also many others whose names escape me at the moment. Also thanks to many who've asked questions that I didn't always have words to articulate.
Tori
>Sandra, this is enormous. Before I go further I want to qualify and say that I don't have a problem with people making money on their efforts, BUT....intention is significant. It's pretty clear when the opportunity to profit leads. And it's also evident when someone is acting out of principle...willing to tend the well.
>I'm not charging for the water. People helped me freely in La Leche League, in Adult Children of Alcoholics, and I'm not in those groups anymore, but the legacy of groups helping people who come to groups remains. I'm willing to tend the well for the foreseeable future.
>
>
>
I teach at a state university where folks are all up in arms wondering how to profit by offering curricula online the way Berkeley and MIT are doing it, but for free. They seem oblivious to the principles behind these scenarios. There's some serious anger about big name schools giving away something perceived as more valuable than what we're offering for sale. I sense a similar situation regarding unschooling.
Thank you, Sandra! And thanks to Joyce, Meredith, Jenny, Robin, and Connie...also many others whose names escape me at the moment. Also thanks to many who've asked questions that I didn't always have words to articulate.
Tori
Sandra Dodd
-=-intention is significant. It's pretty clear when the opportunity to profit leads. And it's also evident when someone is acting out of principle...willing to tend the well.-=-
Thanks, Tori.
The current e-mail announcements from Life Learning (to which I have subscribed in the past some, and had a free subscription a couple of times to but am not now subsribed to), and its sister publications just arrived. Two things relating to this discussion, I think:
----------------------------
• From authorities to advertisers, we are bombarded with the message, explicit and implicit, “Trust Us. We know what is best, we are the experts.” Here's some timeless advice from Natural Life Magazine's archives about why that's a problem and what to do about it.
• “If we taught babies to talk as most skills are taught in school, they would memorize lists of sounds in a predetermined order and practice them alone in a closet.” ~ Linda Darling-Hammond. This is one of many such quotes on the Life Learning Magazine website
----------------------------
To the first one. Don't they survive on advertising? Aren't there messages in that? Isn't the newsletter itself the announcements of authorities?
And to the second, we do not teach babies to talk. It's not about how we teach them. They learn naturally. And the quote is by an education professor, a school reformer (of sorts), and not a homeschooler. I don't even know if she's a mother.
Sandra
Thanks, Tori.
The current e-mail announcements from Life Learning (to which I have subscribed in the past some, and had a free subscription a couple of times to but am not now subsribed to), and its sister publications just arrived. Two things relating to this discussion, I think:
----------------------------
• From authorities to advertisers, we are bombarded with the message, explicit and implicit, “Trust Us. We know what is best, we are the experts.” Here's some timeless advice from Natural Life Magazine's archives about why that's a problem and what to do about it.
• “If we taught babies to talk as most skills are taught in school, they would memorize lists of sounds in a predetermined order and practice them alone in a closet.” ~ Linda Darling-Hammond. This is one of many such quotes on the Life Learning Magazine website
----------------------------
To the first one. Don't they survive on advertising? Aren't there messages in that? Isn't the newsletter itself the announcements of authorities?
And to the second, we do not teach babies to talk. It's not about how we teach them. They learn naturally. And the quote is by an education professor, a school reformer (of sorts), and not a homeschooler. I don't even know if she's a mother.
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 3, 2013, at 6:02 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
I think what she really meant to say is experts who seek to make money off their expertise say, "We know what is best for you better than you do because we're experts."
Joyce
> From authorities to advertisers, we are bombarded with theWhat strikes me is that people buy her magazine because they trust she has the expertise not to steer them wrong and to give them what they believe is best. ;-)
> message, explicit and implicit, “Trust Us. We know what is best,
> we are the experts.” Here's some timeless advice from Natural
> Life Magazine's archives about why that's a problem and what to do about it.
I think what she really meant to say is experts who seek to make money off their expertise say, "We know what is best for you better than you do because we're experts."
Joyce