Trusting my child, waiting, and other adults step in
mommy_singing
In my journey into gentle and trusting parenting and helping with my child's learning, we come across this situation - often.
My child will be doing something that social or hierarchical cues around us suggest is "wrong" read wrong as "awkward", but is not harmful and is a definite part of my child's learning.
For instance, we went hiking with a group of people. My son started throwing snowballs (as other kids were throwing snowballs and we had talked about this happy possibility while driving to the hike). He did not get the clue that someone did not want to play, or my child's desire to play overruled the clue that this other person probably didn't want to play. I noticed that the person didn't like the snowball (the man was bewildered). My son noticed both the person's reaction and my clues to have my son stop (I shook my head, no). My son paused, took in the information, and stopped playing snowball with that person. I was really pleased that he processed the social cue, and I was pleased that my son remained happy and interacting though he had made a "mistake".
But, I was about 10 feet down hill from him and moving slowly. 3 parents decided that they had to intervene, scold my child, become upset because he did not say sorry for it, and tell him to stop throwing snowballs period.
How do I help my son learn his social cues and recognize his success, because he had several successes in his social interactions, when other adults move in and take over?
Also, any ideas on how to regain our aplomb in such a situation?
Theresa
My child will be doing something that social or hierarchical cues around us suggest is "wrong" read wrong as "awkward", but is not harmful and is a definite part of my child's learning.
For instance, we went hiking with a group of people. My son started throwing snowballs (as other kids were throwing snowballs and we had talked about this happy possibility while driving to the hike). He did not get the clue that someone did not want to play, or my child's desire to play overruled the clue that this other person probably didn't want to play. I noticed that the person didn't like the snowball (the man was bewildered). My son noticed both the person's reaction and my clues to have my son stop (I shook my head, no). My son paused, took in the information, and stopped playing snowball with that person. I was really pleased that he processed the social cue, and I was pleased that my son remained happy and interacting though he had made a "mistake".
But, I was about 10 feet down hill from him and moving slowly. 3 parents decided that they had to intervene, scold my child, become upset because he did not say sorry for it, and tell him to stop throwing snowballs period.
How do I help my son learn his social cues and recognize his success, because he had several successes in his social interactions, when other adults move in and take over?
Also, any ideas on how to regain our aplomb in such a situation?
Theresa
Pam Sorooshian
On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 11:37 AM, mommy_singing <theresame2000@...>wrote:
adult (a man?) who isn't already playing, then he might be too young for
you to be that far from him in snow when throwing snowballs was already on
his agenda.
Or - if he's old enough - when throwing snowballs came up, you could have
told him then that he should only throw them at other people who are
playing, not surprise people with them.
If 3 year old throws a snowball at someone, that's one thing. But I'd be
pretty unhappy with an older kid purposely throwing a snowball at me when I
wasn't playing/expecting it.
If you were not nearby, other adults will not have seen your subtle "clues"
to your son and not know he isn't going to do it again. For the sake of the
sense of comfort of others, you might have needed to say it out loud so
they knew you'd handled it.
-pam
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> How do I help my son learn his social cues and recognize his success,Depends on how old he is. If he doesn't know not to throw snowballs at an
> because he had several successes in his social interactions, when other
> adults move in and take over?
adult (a man?) who isn't already playing, then he might be too young for
you to be that far from him in snow when throwing snowballs was already on
his agenda.
Or - if he's old enough - when throwing snowballs came up, you could have
told him then that he should only throw them at other people who are
playing, not surprise people with them.
If 3 year old throws a snowball at someone, that's one thing. But I'd be
pretty unhappy with an older kid purposely throwing a snowball at me when I
wasn't playing/expecting it.
If you were not nearby, other adults will not have seen your subtle "clues"
to your son and not know he isn't going to do it again. For the sake of the
sense of comfort of others, you might have needed to say it out loud so
they knew you'd handled it.
-pam
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Lucy's web
On 14 Feb 2013, at 21:35, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
Lucy
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> If you were not nearby, other adults will not have seen your subtle "clues"Perhaps just a "Thank you � (son's name) �" called out in a proper 'thank you' tone (not that sarcastic tone that some people use to tell kids off) might help show the other adults that you are handling it, and also enable your son to continue to feel O.K about it?
> to your son and not know he isn't going to do it again. For the sake of the
> sense of comfort of others, you might have needed to say it out loud so
> they knew you'd handled it.
Lucy
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Michelle
=My child will be doing something that social or hierarchical cues around us suggest is "wrong" read wrong as "awkward", but is not harmful and is a definite part of my child's learning.=
To be honest, throwing a snowball at someone who isn't prepared for it (nor wanting it) could indeed be harmful. Snowballs can hurt. This is coming from someone who *loathes* having snowballs thrown at her.
One of my sons, who is now 13, is Autistic. Social cues are often very difficult for him to pick up on. Because I know this, when we are in groups of people I stay close to where he is, in case he needs some help to navigate the social world. He feels confident that I'm there if he needs me, and others feel at ease that his mom is paying attention and giving assistance when necessary. Win-Win. :)
Michelle
To be honest, throwing a snowball at someone who isn't prepared for it (nor wanting it) could indeed be harmful. Snowballs can hurt. This is coming from someone who *loathes* having snowballs thrown at her.
One of my sons, who is now 13, is Autistic. Social cues are often very difficult for him to pick up on. Because I know this, when we are in groups of people I stay close to where he is, in case he needs some help to navigate the social world. He feels confident that I'm there if he needs me, and others feel at ease that his mom is paying attention and giving assistance when necessary. Win-Win. :)
Michelle
Sandra Dodd
-=-social or hierarchical cues around us suggest is "wrong" read wrong as "awkward", but is not harmful and is a definite part of my child's learning.-=-
Could you please define "hierarchical cues"?
Sandra
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Could you please define "hierarchical cues"?
Sandra
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mommy_singing
Originally, I wrote:
-=-social or hierarchical cues around us suggest is "wrong" read wrong as "awkward", but is not harmful and is a definite part of my child's learning.-=-
A response:
-= Could you please define "hierarchical cues"?-=
OK, Sandra. Hierarchical cues are the cues by nods, grimaces, and head shakes to determine whose set of rules we are following to be "right" with the group. With the outing that I am highlighting, the cues seemed to go from person to person like a tacit undercurrent.
Let me give another example from the highlighted outing. We had a tour guide for part of the forest adventure. During the tour guide's talk, we had three or four different sets of parenting/learning allowances for children's behavior: 1) Stand completely still and back from the speaker, 2) Standing still but near the speaker, 3) Walking around but not near the speaker, 4) Playing on the logs behind the speaker at their own game. Children were between 5 and 10.
From what I am calling hierarchical cues, my son settled (with my help) from 3, to 2, and then to 1. My 7 year-old wanted to play on the logs (a physical and fun activity that we both value), and I let him do so after the guide had finished his talk. After a short time, I received a series of grimaces and head shakes from one of the parents letting me know that the group was done and we as a group were moving on.
Maybe this explanation is better: cues within a group telling you that you don't get to do what you want to do, that someone else is deciding what you are going to do, and that to be part of the group you will follow along. I think that is what some parents joke about when they tell their kids that "the rule is to have no fun".
Hope that helps explain my meaning behind hierarchical cues.
Theresa
-=-social or hierarchical cues around us suggest is "wrong" read wrong as "awkward", but is not harmful and is a definite part of my child's learning.-=-
A response:
-= Could you please define "hierarchical cues"?-=
OK, Sandra. Hierarchical cues are the cues by nods, grimaces, and head shakes to determine whose set of rules we are following to be "right" with the group. With the outing that I am highlighting, the cues seemed to go from person to person like a tacit undercurrent.
Let me give another example from the highlighted outing. We had a tour guide for part of the forest adventure. During the tour guide's talk, we had three or four different sets of parenting/learning allowances for children's behavior: 1) Stand completely still and back from the speaker, 2) Standing still but near the speaker, 3) Walking around but not near the speaker, 4) Playing on the logs behind the speaker at their own game. Children were between 5 and 10.
From what I am calling hierarchical cues, my son settled (with my help) from 3, to 2, and then to 1. My 7 year-old wanted to play on the logs (a physical and fun activity that we both value), and I let him do so after the guide had finished his talk. After a short time, I received a series of grimaces and head shakes from one of the parents letting me know that the group was done and we as a group were moving on.
Maybe this explanation is better: cues within a group telling you that you don't get to do what you want to do, that someone else is deciding what you are going to do, and that to be part of the group you will follow along. I think that is what some parents joke about when they tell their kids that "the rule is to have no fun".
Hope that helps explain my meaning behind hierarchical cues.
Theresa
Sandra Dodd
-=-OK, Sandra. Hierarchical cues are the cues by nods, grimaces, and head shakes to determine whose set of rules we are following to be "right" with the group. With the outing that I am highlighting, the cues seemed to go from person to person like a tacit undercurrent.-=-
What's the difference between that and social cues?
-=-Let me give another example from the highlighted outing. We had a tour guide for part of the forest adventure. During the tour guide's talk, we had three or four different sets of parenting/learning allowances for children's behavior: 1) Stand completely still and back from the speaker, 2) Standing still but near the speaker, 3) Walking around but not near the speaker, 4) Playing on the logs behind the speaker at their own game. Children were between 5 and 10.-=-
Were these "parenting/learning allowances" described by the tour guide?
Were they in a flyer?
Or are you just listing them now, for the purposes of this discussion?
-=-From what I am calling hierarchical cues, my son settled (with my help) from 3, to 2, and then to 1. -=-
This all sounds very technical.
-=-After a short time, I received a series of grimaces and head shakes from one of the parents letting me know that the group was done and we as a group were moving on.-=-
If you were with the group and the group was moving, it might be setting a better example for your kids if you can move along before people are signalling you.
-=-Maybe this explanation is better: cues within a group telling you that you don't get to do what you want to do, that someone else is deciding what you are going to do, and that to be part of the group you will follow along.-=-
Social cues that you're being disruptive?
When you're in a group, you Don't "get to do what you want to do."
When you're in anyone else's jurisdiction, or on their property, you don't "get to do what you want to do."
-=-I think that is what some parents joke about when they tell their kids that "the rule is to have no fun".-=-
Any parent who tells their kids that is doing a great disservice in being where they are, and in not being the child's partner in acting in socially acceptable ways.
-=-Hope that helps explain my meaning behind hierarchical cues.-=-
Plain English is better than special terminology.
Sandra
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What's the difference between that and social cues?
-=-Let me give another example from the highlighted outing. We had a tour guide for part of the forest adventure. During the tour guide's talk, we had three or four different sets of parenting/learning allowances for children's behavior: 1) Stand completely still and back from the speaker, 2) Standing still but near the speaker, 3) Walking around but not near the speaker, 4) Playing on the logs behind the speaker at their own game. Children were between 5 and 10.-=-
Were these "parenting/learning allowances" described by the tour guide?
Were they in a flyer?
Or are you just listing them now, for the purposes of this discussion?
-=-From what I am calling hierarchical cues, my son settled (with my help) from 3, to 2, and then to 1. -=-
This all sounds very technical.
-=-After a short time, I received a series of grimaces and head shakes from one of the parents letting me know that the group was done and we as a group were moving on.-=-
If you were with the group and the group was moving, it might be setting a better example for your kids if you can move along before people are signalling you.
-=-Maybe this explanation is better: cues within a group telling you that you don't get to do what you want to do, that someone else is deciding what you are going to do, and that to be part of the group you will follow along.-=-
Social cues that you're being disruptive?
When you're in a group, you Don't "get to do what you want to do."
When you're in anyone else's jurisdiction, or on their property, you don't "get to do what you want to do."
-=-I think that is what some parents joke about when they tell their kids that "the rule is to have no fun".-=-
Any parent who tells their kids that is doing a great disservice in being where they are, and in not being the child's partner in acting in socially acceptable ways.
-=-Hope that helps explain my meaning behind hierarchical cues.-=-
Plain English is better than special terminology.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-How do I help my son learn his social cues and recognize his success, because he had several successes in his social interactions, when other adults move in and take over?-=-
If others have moved in, you weren't close enough. Success will be when there's no reason for others to step in.
It can help to discuss situations in movies or on TV shows, or in stories. In fairy tales. Discussing better and worse choices in all kinds of situations is the way to help anyone learn to make choices in the moment.
http://sandradodd.com/choices
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully has some practical ideas (in the transcript, down by the sound file), and those ideas can be shared with children, after the parents practice them a while.
-=-Also, any ideas on how to regain our aplomb in such a situation?-=-
Aplomb is usually individual, isn't it? Maybe you're flustered but he's fine. It would be excellent if you could remain fine even if he has lost his aplomb.
-=-Trusting my child, waiting, and other adults step in-=-
Trust should come from knowing someone is trustworthy. The parent can practice trustworthiness, and help the child develop a feel for what that involves, gradually.
Other adults aren't stepping in when you're at home.
When my kids were going to a birthday party, wedding, funeral, sledding outing, hike, I would remind them (whether I was going to be there or not) what would probably be happening and what would be expected of them. Now that they're grown, they still ask sometimes. And when I've gone to some of their events (party at son's girlfriend's family's house; punk show; friend's art show at a coffee shop), I've asked them what I should take, what I should do... who's the host? How long are we staying?
We also remind each other each night what's up--who needs to be where at what time the next day. The clothes are ready in advance, and we can help each other be ready and on time, whether we're travelling together or not.
Sandra
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If others have moved in, you weren't close enough. Success will be when there's no reason for others to step in.
It can help to discuss situations in movies or on TV shows, or in stories. In fairy tales. Discussing better and worse choices in all kinds of situations is the way to help anyone learn to make choices in the moment.
http://sandradodd.com/choices
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully has some practical ideas (in the transcript, down by the sound file), and those ideas can be shared with children, after the parents practice them a while.
-=-Also, any ideas on how to regain our aplomb in such a situation?-=-
Aplomb is usually individual, isn't it? Maybe you're flustered but he's fine. It would be excellent if you could remain fine even if he has lost his aplomb.
-=-Trusting my child, waiting, and other adults step in-=-
Trust should come from knowing someone is trustworthy. The parent can practice trustworthiness, and help the child develop a feel for what that involves, gradually.
Other adults aren't stepping in when you're at home.
When my kids were going to a birthday party, wedding, funeral, sledding outing, hike, I would remind them (whether I was going to be there or not) what would probably be happening and what would be expected of them. Now that they're grown, they still ask sometimes. And when I've gone to some of their events (party at son's girlfriend's family's house; punk show; friend's art show at a coffee shop), I've asked them what I should take, what I should do... who's the host? How long are we staying?
We also remind each other each night what's up--who needs to be where at what time the next day. The clothes are ready in advance, and we can help each other be ready and on time, whether we're travelling together or not.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mommy_singing
-=To be honest, throwing a snowball at someone who isn't prepared for it (nor wanting it) could indeed be harmful. Snowballs can hurt. This is coming from someone who *loathes* having snowballs thrown at her.-=
I'm sorry you have been hurt by snowballs, before. My son did not hurt this person; the man was only surprised. His wife was enjoying my son playing in the snow so much that she asked to take his picture, directly after the snowball was thrown. It was just a weird time. The social cues were extremely varied.
I thought it would be OK to mention it, because I just read the excerpt from the Theology Today article mentioning the connection between adult wounded pride and spanking.
If you were on an outing with people who rarely see snow and there was snow, how would you let the children and adults know that you were not going to participate in the snow play? Or better, how would we make it up to you, if we tried to get you to play with us and you were offended by it?
Theresa
I'm sorry you have been hurt by snowballs, before. My son did not hurt this person; the man was only surprised. His wife was enjoying my son playing in the snow so much that she asked to take his picture, directly after the snowball was thrown. It was just a weird time. The social cues were extremely varied.
I thought it would be OK to mention it, because I just read the excerpt from the Theology Today article mentioning the connection between adult wounded pride and spanking.
If you were on an outing with people who rarely see snow and there was snow, how would you let the children and adults know that you were not going to participate in the snow play? Or better, how would we make it up to you, if we tried to get you to play with us and you were offended by it?
Theresa
mommy_singing
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I do appreciate it.
-=Were these "parenting/learning allowances" described by the tour guide?
I don't mind defining and clarifying. Since there are so many perspectives out there, there is no way for me to know that a certain word or phrase is not to your liking or could be confusing - unless I saw that you didn't like something earlier. Clarification is part of the communication process.
Maybe I should clarify that I am not asking for advice about snowballs. I am asking for ideas on how to successfully navigate social cues for myself and for my child and remain personally and parentally intact. And if grace is lost, I am asking for ideas on how to regain it.
Thank you,
Theresa
-=Were these "parenting/learning allowances" described by the tour guide?
> Were they in a flyer?Since I know that AlwaysLearning likes distinct and clear communication, I listed my observations of the changing social structure of the hiking outing. I thought the enumeration would make it easier to understand that there were many ways that the children and adults were behaving and that a norm had simply not been reached.
> Or are you just listing them now, for the purposes of this discussion?
>
> -=-From what I am calling hierarchical cues, my son settled (with my help) from 3, to 2, and then to 1. -=-
>
> This all sounds very technical. -=
I don't mind defining and clarifying. Since there are so many perspectives out there, there is no way for me to know that a certain word or phrase is not to your liking or could be confusing - unless I saw that you didn't like something earlier. Clarification is part of the communication process.
Maybe I should clarify that I am not asking for advice about snowballs. I am asking for ideas on how to successfully navigate social cues for myself and for my child and remain personally and parentally intact. And if grace is lost, I am asking for ideas on how to regain it.
Thank you,
Theresa
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 15, 2013, at 1:48 AM, mommy_singing wrote:
It doesn't matter about the outing or the rarely seeing snow part. It doesn't matter what Pam would do. It's unlikely you'll ever need to decide whether to throw snowballs at her or not ;-)
What's useful is what people in general do.
In general in any situation, if someone's standing off to the side they aren't participating. If someone is closer but just standing there, usually they're not participating. If someone's in the middle, taking pictures they're not participating. And sometimes people are a bit clueless that they aren't sending clear signals ;-)
The first one kids generally pick up on their own. If they don't, a mom can clue the child in. If a child is very exuberant they might need mom near by to notice for them. But if a child can't play so that others are having fun, then mom needs to avoid those kinds of situations until the child can.
The second two are less obvious. Notice for him if he can't. Clue him in.
If you make a mistake, you say, "Sorry!" If he makes a mistake but hasn't noticed, you say, "Sorry!" In that situation you need to pick up the slack for your team. Then do what's needed so that your child isn't making it unfun for others.
Joyce
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> If you were on an outing with people who rarely see snow and there was snow,Do you have difficulties reading social cues yourself? I ask because you're seeing -- and including -- a lot of irrelevant detail. Details that aren't useful for deciding what to do.
> how would you let the children and adults know that you were not going to
> participate in the snow play?
It doesn't matter about the outing or the rarely seeing snow part. It doesn't matter what Pam would do. It's unlikely you'll ever need to decide whether to throw snowballs at her or not ;-)
What's useful is what people in general do.
In general in any situation, if someone's standing off to the side they aren't participating. If someone is closer but just standing there, usually they're not participating. If someone's in the middle, taking pictures they're not participating. And sometimes people are a bit clueless that they aren't sending clear signals ;-)
The first one kids generally pick up on their own. If they don't, a mom can clue the child in. If a child is very exuberant they might need mom near by to notice for them. But if a child can't play so that others are having fun, then mom needs to avoid those kinds of situations until the child can.
The second two are less obvious. Notice for him if he can't. Clue him in.
> Or better, how would we make it up to you, if we tried to get you to play with us and you were offended by it?Too many layers of complexity.
If you make a mistake, you say, "Sorry!" If he makes a mistake but hasn't noticed, you say, "Sorry!" In that situation you need to pick up the slack for your team. Then do what's needed so that your child isn't making it unfun for others.
> The social cues were extremely varied.Don't expect your child to understand all the different cues yet. Do that for him so your team can play nice with others.
Joyce
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 15, 2013, at 1:50 AM, mommy_singing wrote:
Maybe you're confusing precision with clarity. Plain words are less precise than 25 cent words but they're usually clearer. Capturing an idea with one word is clearer than burying it in a dozen precise details.
It will help you -- and help you help you child -- to focus on the point of the gathering. Then help your child meet his needs without being disruptive. If you can't figure out how to do that, move away or leave so you're not bothering people. If someone's speaking, if people are listening, that trumps other people -- adults or children -- doing their own thing.
Helping him understand how to meet his needs AND be nice to others will be a mixture of doing and telling. Doing is usually best. The more you help him meet his needs without disturbing others in a variety of situations, the clearer he'll get on what behavior is okay where. Sometimes a few words will help him see what's most important, like, "People are trying to listen." But it's really up to you to be aware and do what your team needs to do -- to meet his needs in ways that are kind to him and others -- until he's able to do it himself.
He's going to miss clues. He's a kid. He'll get better as he gets older *if* he has someone helping him with better choices.
If there were no way to know if a wording would be confusing, no one could communicate! Feedback lets us know when we're not being clear. Use feedback not only to clarify what you said. Use it to help you be more clear in the first place.
It will probably hep to write a question out then let it sit for a couple of days. Reread it and try to hear how a stranger might hear it. Cut out complexity that muddies clarity. Substitute plainer words for complex words.
Neither of those goals are helpful. He'll miss clues. He'll make mistakes. You'll miss clues. You'll be less attentive than you needed. Use people's reactions as feedback on how to do better next time.
Are you projecting those feelings of devastation onto your son? Don't do that! Let him feel what he feels. And work to feel not devastated.
Joyce
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> Since I know that AlwaysLearning likes distinct and clear communication,Clarity comes from *just enough" detail for someone else to paint a picture with it. Both too little and too much are unclear.
Maybe you're confusing precision with clarity. Plain words are less precise than 25 cent words but they're usually clearer. Capturing an idea with one word is clearer than burying it in a dozen precise details.
It will help you -- and help you help you child -- to focus on the point of the gathering. Then help your child meet his needs without being disruptive. If you can't figure out how to do that, move away or leave so you're not bothering people. If someone's speaking, if people are listening, that trumps other people -- adults or children -- doing their own thing.
Helping him understand how to meet his needs AND be nice to others will be a mixture of doing and telling. Doing is usually best. The more you help him meet his needs without disturbing others in a variety of situations, the clearer he'll get on what behavior is okay where. Sometimes a few words will help him see what's most important, like, "People are trying to listen." But it's really up to you to be aware and do what your team needs to do -- to meet his needs in ways that are kind to him and others -- until he's able to do it himself.
> I listed my observations of the changing social structure of the hiking outing.That's a very complex way of saying that the situation kept changing. And not being able to word it simply, burying the essence in detail, might be a big clue on why you're finding it difficult to help him. If you can't make the ideas clear to others, they can't be clear to you.
> I thought the enumeration would make it easier to understand that there were
> many ways that the children and adults were behaving and that a norm had
> simply not been reached.
He's going to miss clues. He's a kid. He'll get better as he gets older *if* he has someone helping him with better choices.
> Since there are so many perspectives out there, there is no way for meYou shouldn't be communicating clearly just to Sandra but to several thousand people.
> to know that a certain word or phrase is not to your liking or could be confusing
> - unless I saw that you didn't like something earlier. Clarification is part of the communication process.
If there were no way to know if a wording would be confusing, no one could communicate! Feedback lets us know when we're not being clear. Use feedback not only to clarify what you said. Use it to help you be more clear in the first place.
It will probably hep to write a question out then let it sit for a couple of days. Reread it and try to hear how a stranger might hear it. Cut out complexity that muddies clarity. Substitute plainer words for complex words.
> I am asking for ideas on how to successfully navigate social cues forWhat do you consider successful? Is it never bothering someone? Is it never making a mistake?
> myself and for my child
Neither of those goals are helpful. He'll miss clues. He'll make mistakes. You'll miss clues. You'll be less attentive than you needed. Use people's reactions as feedback on how to do better next time.
> and remain personally and parentally intact.What's causing you to become "un-intact"? Are you overly sensitive to making mistakes in public? Do you feel devastated if someone corrects your son?
Are you projecting those feelings of devastation onto your son? Don't do that! Let him feel what he feels. And work to feel not devastated.
> And if grace is lost, I am asking for ideas on how to regain it.Your and your son's grace shouldn't be a factor. If you or your son hurt someone, say you're sorry. Do so sincerely. Make it about you and your mistake and not a request for forgiveness. If you made a mess, help clean it up.
Joyce
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Sandra Dodd
-=-> The social cues were extremely varied.
-=-Don't expect your child to understand all the different cues yet. Do that for him so your team can play nice with others.-=-
Yes, and social clues aren't votes. You can't consider two smiles to cancel out a look of fear or disgust. No should be no.
And if not snowballs, what of dirt clods? Water balloons?
People should agree to play, and not be attacked when they're minding their own business.
And some of it, even in fairly willing participants, should be about what they're wearing, how their hair is, how big and strong they are. MANY, many factors.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-Don't expect your child to understand all the different cues yet. Do that for him so your team can play nice with others.-=-
Yes, and social clues aren't votes. You can't consider two smiles to cancel out a look of fear or disgust. No should be no.
And if not snowballs, what of dirt clods? Water balloons?
People should agree to play, and not be attacked when they're minding their own business.
And some of it, even in fairly willing participants, should be about what they're wearing, how their hair is, how big and strong they are. MANY, many factors.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=- don't mind defining and clarifying. Since there are so many perspectives out there, there is no way for me to know that a certain word or phrase is not to your liking or could be confusing - unless I saw that you didn't like something earlier. Clarification is part of the communication process. -=-
It's better not to obfuscate in the first place.
State simply and clearly.
-=-Maybe I should clarify that I am not asking for advice about snowballs.-=-
Always Learning is for discussing ideas. The ideas you put out will be discussed in an unschooling light, for the benefit of anyone reading. Once it's out here, the ideas are on the table for examination.
You can read more about the way this group operates here: http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning
-=-I thought it would be OK to mention it, because I just read the excerpt from the Theology Today article mentioning the connection between adult wounded pride and spanking.-=-
If you had spanked your son because your pride was wounded, then it would have matched what was discussed in that article.
If a stranger is suprised or irritated by being hit by a snowball (or anything else) that is NOT what the article was about, at all.
It's good not to hit children. It's good not to hit strangers.
Sandra
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It's better not to obfuscate in the first place.
State simply and clearly.
-=-Maybe I should clarify that I am not asking for advice about snowballs.-=-
Always Learning is for discussing ideas. The ideas you put out will be discussed in an unschooling light, for the benefit of anyone reading. Once it's out here, the ideas are on the table for examination.
You can read more about the way this group operates here: http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning
-=-I thought it would be OK to mention it, because I just read the excerpt from the Theology Today article mentioning the connection between adult wounded pride and spanking.-=-
If you had spanked your son because your pride was wounded, then it would have matched what was discussed in that article.
If a stranger is suprised or irritated by being hit by a snowball (or anything else) that is NOT what the article was about, at all.
It's good not to hit children. It's good not to hit strangers.
Sandra
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 14, 2013, at 11:53 PM, mommy_singing wrote:
If you've guessed wrong about what's acceptable in a group, if you weren't paying attention, those cues are useful feedback. But those signals shouldn't be a constant thing. If they are, you're missing the big picture of how your behavior is impacting others.
Was it a group new to you? Did they have certain expectations you weren't aware of? Then part of your learning about the group is hanging back more to observe. (Just as new members are asked to do here to help them figure out how the list works. It's a principle useful when joining any new group :-)
Is the group made up of a non-mainstream culture or religion? They'll have different rules of behavior. It's up to you to figure them out then help your son with them. If you visit Japan, you pay attention so you know to leave your shoes at the door, then help your son do the same.
If your general rule is helping him meet his needs AND let the core of the group do what it's gathered for, you've got a good start. Then you can use what other parents are doing to help you decide if you need to adjust. Or decide if this is the right group for you. If everyone's making their kids sit quietly to listen and your kids can't, it's not a good fit for your family.
Why were they grimacing and head shaking? It sound negative. Did you miss subtler clues? Are there expectations of this particular group that you're not aware of?
If the way they communicated made you uncomfortable, then maybe the group isn't for you.
Or are you being hyper-sensitive to criticism? Just with this group? Or in general?
Joyce
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> Hierarchical cues are the cues by nods, grimaces, and head shakesYou should already have a sound set of general rules of how to behave in groups. You're shouldn't be depending on "hierarchical cues" to tell you.
> to determine whose set of rules we are following to be "right" with the group.
If you've guessed wrong about what's acceptable in a group, if you weren't paying attention, those cues are useful feedback. But those signals shouldn't be a constant thing. If they are, you're missing the big picture of how your behavior is impacting others.
> With the outing that I am highlighting, the cues seemed to go from person to person like a tacit undercurrent.I think the question that will be more helpful to ask yourself is why did the situation seem so out of the ordinary that you needed to rely on other people to give you signals about how to behave?
Was it a group new to you? Did they have certain expectations you weren't aware of? Then part of your learning about the group is hanging back more to observe. (Just as new members are asked to do here to help them figure out how the list works. It's a principle useful when joining any new group :-)
Is the group made up of a non-mainstream culture or religion? They'll have different rules of behavior. It's up to you to figure them out then help your son with them. If you visit Japan, you pay attention so you know to leave your shoes at the door, then help your son do the same.
> we had three or four different sets of parenting/learning allowances for children's behavior:Different parents will have different standards of behavior for their kids. A well established group will generally have its own standards about what's okay and what's not.
If your general rule is helping him meet his needs AND let the core of the group do what it's gathered for, you've got a good start. Then you can use what other parents are doing to help you decide if you need to adjust. Or decide if this is the right group for you. If everyone's making their kids sit quietly to listen and your kids can't, it's not a good fit for your family.
> 1) Stand completely still and back from the speaker, 2) Standing still but near the speaker, 3) Walking around but not near the speaker, 4) Playing on the logs behind the speaker at their own game. Children were between 5 and 10.Different groups will have different rules about acceptable behavior. Some will want kids more contained than others. Don't expect your son to be able to figure this out himself yet. He might not be able until he's a teen. Use your rules as a first guess then adjust.
>
> From what I am calling hierarchical cues, my son settled (with my help) from 3, to 2, and then to 1.
> My 7 year-old wanted to play on the logs (a physical and fun activity that we both value),Why is your value of this important? What's important in a group is whether others find it disrupting or not.
> and I let him do so after the guide had finished his talk. After a short time, I received a series of grimaces and head shakes from one of the parents letting me know that the group was done and we as a group were moving on.If you weren't paying attention, then it was thoughtful of people to give you a clue that the group was moving on.
Why were they grimacing and head shaking? It sound negative. Did you miss subtler clues? Are there expectations of this particular group that you're not aware of?
If the way they communicated made you uncomfortable, then maybe the group isn't for you.
Or are you being hyper-sensitive to criticism? Just with this group? Or in general?
> Maybe this explanation is better: cues within a group telling you that you don't get to do what you want to do, that someone else is deciding what you are going to do, and that to be part of the group you will follow along.That's what groups are for: to do something together. Some groups are tighter. Some looser. Depends on the group. Depends on what the group has gathered for. If you can't adjust your own actions so the group can do its thing, don't join a group.
> I think that is what some parents joke about when they tell their kids that "the rule is to have no fun".If you feel that vibe from the group, then it doesn't sound like a good fit. Don't expect your son to be able to pick up what's going on and adjust. It's too subtle.
Joyce
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[email protected]
Hello Theresa,
Sometimes when people realise that parents are often mean to their children and that there are better, more joyful ways to live with children, they want others to change as well. They want the world to be a more child-friendly place. While this wish is very understandable, it can sometimes lead to disrespectful behaviour towards others.
I remember a discussion on a German parenting list where someone just couldn't understand why churches couldn't be a place for children to play noisily. But I wasn't much better myself at that time: When my oldest was little (1 year old) I used to let him run into people's frontyards when we were out and about. It wasn't enough for me to be nicer to my child, I also wanted others to be nicer to children and give them more space. In the same way, I could imagine that you just wanted people to be more relaxed about children's mistakes.
But the problem with this kind of thinking is that it doesn't respect other ways of living. I didn't respect people's property by letting my toddler run into their frontyard. The lady from the German mailinglist didn't respect people's wish to pray in peace when she wanted the church to be a place where children could play. And you might have come across as disrespectful when you didn't respect the groups wish for listening to a guide or for carrying on.
Cheers
Bettina
Sometimes when people realise that parents are often mean to their children and that there are better, more joyful ways to live with children, they want others to change as well. They want the world to be a more child-friendly place. While this wish is very understandable, it can sometimes lead to disrespectful behaviour towards others.
I remember a discussion on a German parenting list where someone just couldn't understand why churches couldn't be a place for children to play noisily. But I wasn't much better myself at that time: When my oldest was little (1 year old) I used to let him run into people's frontyards when we were out and about. It wasn't enough for me to be nicer to my child, I also wanted others to be nicer to children and give them more space. In the same way, I could imagine that you just wanted people to be more relaxed about children's mistakes.
But the problem with this kind of thinking is that it doesn't respect other ways of living. I didn't respect people's property by letting my toddler run into their frontyard. The lady from the German mailinglist didn't respect people's wish to pray in peace when she wanted the church to be a place where children could play. And you might have come across as disrespectful when you didn't respect the groups wish for listening to a guide or for carrying on.
Cheers
Bettina
Marina DeLuca-Howard
By "hierarchical cues" are you perhaps suggesting your place in the group
is not secure? Are you feeling little emotional connection to these folks
or perhaps you are concerned this is the only game in town and its either
these people or isolation?
It sounds to me as though you aren't sure you like these people very much
and perhaps you need to find a group of people you like, so that you can
use words rather than confusing gestures or expressions.
If nobody in the group can say to others, " I don't like that" or "Stop
that" or apologise and accept apologies when mistakes happen this group is
going to be a source of trouble.
You can start by articulating your feelings or thoughts, and working with
other people to help meet group needs. You can only change your behavour
though, so "I notice by your expression that you were upset by abc" might
be the way to go and then apologise and give others a graceful way out when
possible.
Marina
When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human
misery rather than avenge it? Eleanor Roosevelt
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is not secure? Are you feeling little emotional connection to these folks
or perhaps you are concerned this is the only game in town and its either
these people or isolation?
It sounds to me as though you aren't sure you like these people very much
and perhaps you need to find a group of people you like, so that you can
use words rather than confusing gestures or expressions.
If nobody in the group can say to others, " I don't like that" or "Stop
that" or apologise and accept apologies when mistakes happen this group is
going to be a source of trouble.
You can start by articulating your feelings or thoughts, and working with
other people to help meet group needs. You can only change your behavour
though, so "I notice by your expression that you were upset by abc" might
be the way to go and then apologise and give others a graceful way out when
possible.
Marina
When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human
misery rather than avenge it? Eleanor Roosevelt
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Sandra Dodd
-=-If nobody in the group can say to others, " I don't like that" or "Stop
that" or apologise and accept apologies when mistakes happen this group is
going to be a source of trouble.-=-
Maybe the group wasn't the source of trouble. :-)
If a person is brash and yet hypersensitive, that combination will be a source of trouble for that person, and maybe for others around.
-=- perhaps you need to find a group of people you like, so that you can
use words rather than confusing gestures or expressions.-=-
It's really interesting, to discuss gestures and expressions in a text-only environment. :-)
Sandra
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that" or apologise and accept apologies when mistakes happen this group is
going to be a source of trouble.-=-
Maybe the group wasn't the source of trouble. :-)
If a person is brash and yet hypersensitive, that combination will be a source of trouble for that person, and maybe for others around.
-=- perhaps you need to find a group of people you like, so that you can
use words rather than confusing gestures or expressions.-=-
It's really interesting, to discuss gestures and expressions in a text-only environment. :-)
Sandra
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