don't settle for better
Sandra Dodd
"Better is better," I've always said. Today I am frustrated with something I hadn't expected. Sometimes "better" isn't much progress at all.
Someone wrote and wrote too much on the facebook group. She said clearly that she was needing help with deschooling but in another thread, two things she wrote are here:
Trying to advise a mom who had a shy son:
-=- for better or worse, that there have been occasions where I've signed up my son for something despite his protests, with the promise that if he tries it and doesn't like it, then I won't make him do it again. And I've had to define what counts as trying (say one hour of a class) so he can't say after 2 minutes he doesn't like it. This has been the less pleasant way for him than observing first, but there are things he has agreed to try and now loves doing.-=-
Another mom suggested the son might be learning unintended things, and the no-deschooled mom wrote something long, containing this:
-=-You also do not know that my children have an abusive controlling father with whom I am divorced, and believe me, my children understand full well the difference between his forceful controlling parenting and my loving gentle parenting.-=-
On the side, where I was trying to explain the situation, and to calm her, she wrote (among other things):
-=- So yes I will read the guidelines first, although in my defense I did not fully know what radical unschooling is. I am choosing to unschool, but my parenting with structure and gentle nudging will not change. It seems that your group has different views than I on this. I believe to spare the rod (of discipline, not abuse) is to spoil the child. And I believe this is biblical and I will not veer from it. -=-
____________
So yes, spanking is not as bad as "an abusive controlling" parent.
But it is still control, and it is a form of abuse.
So it's possible, in such a case, that the children would rather have both parents than just one. And at least one person (the mom) is being less abused (with a divorce). But the kids are with the dad sometimes, probably, and the mom is self-congratulatory about being less controlling and less abusive.
Most of my response:
++++++++++++++
http://sandradodd.com/s/rod
What you believe is biblical is not in the Bible.
-=- in my defense I did not fully know what radical unschooling is-=-
That is not AT ALL a defense, as links to my site and Joyce's are in the group description and the pinned-to-the-top post for new members has a link to my help page.
So that means you posted AND GAVE ADVICE without reading the introduction.
Would you post advice on a Silverado repair discussion and then defend yourself with "I didn't fully know what a Silverado was"?
+++++++++++++++++
Ever-improving, ever better must be the "better" I mean when I say better is better.
Mindful better.
Peaceful better.
Sandra
Someone wrote and wrote too much on the facebook group. She said clearly that she was needing help with deschooling but in another thread, two things she wrote are here:
Trying to advise a mom who had a shy son:
-=- for better or worse, that there have been occasions where I've signed up my son for something despite his protests, with the promise that if he tries it and doesn't like it, then I won't make him do it again. And I've had to define what counts as trying (say one hour of a class) so he can't say after 2 minutes he doesn't like it. This has been the less pleasant way for him than observing first, but there are things he has agreed to try and now loves doing.-=-
Another mom suggested the son might be learning unintended things, and the no-deschooled mom wrote something long, containing this:
-=-You also do not know that my children have an abusive controlling father with whom I am divorced, and believe me, my children understand full well the difference between his forceful controlling parenting and my loving gentle parenting.-=-
On the side, where I was trying to explain the situation, and to calm her, she wrote (among other things):
-=- So yes I will read the guidelines first, although in my defense I did not fully know what radical unschooling is. I am choosing to unschool, but my parenting with structure and gentle nudging will not change. It seems that your group has different views than I on this. I believe to spare the rod (of discipline, not abuse) is to spoil the child. And I believe this is biblical and I will not veer from it. -=-
____________
So yes, spanking is not as bad as "an abusive controlling" parent.
But it is still control, and it is a form of abuse.
So it's possible, in such a case, that the children would rather have both parents than just one. And at least one person (the mom) is being less abused (with a divorce). But the kids are with the dad sometimes, probably, and the mom is self-congratulatory about being less controlling and less abusive.
Most of my response:
++++++++++++++
http://sandradodd.com/s/rod
What you believe is biblical is not in the Bible.
-=- in my defense I did not fully know what radical unschooling is-=-
That is not AT ALL a defense, as links to my site and Joyce's are in the group description and the pinned-to-the-top post for new members has a link to my help page.
So that means you posted AND GAVE ADVICE without reading the introduction.
Would you post advice on a Silverado repair discussion and then defend yourself with "I didn't fully know what a Silverado was"?
+++++++++++++++++
Ever-improving, ever better must be the "better" I mean when I say better is better.
Mindful better.
Peaceful better.
Sandra
Claire
>>>>>>>-=- So yes I will read the guidelines first, although in my defense I did not fully know what radical unschooling is. I am choosing to unschool, but my parenting with structure and gentle nudging will not change. It seems that your group has different views than I on this. I believe to spare the rod (of discipline, not abuse) is to spoil the child. And I believe this is biblical and I will not veer from it. -=->>>>>>>>>One of the best attributes a parent can have when learning about unschooling is openness. Openness to at least consider the ideas. "Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
I remember clearly when I read here 5 years ago that in order to truly give kids a choice, a parent may end up packing up the toys EVERY SINGLE TIME. "Oh no way", I thought. Ha! Guess what I've been doing most days for the last 4 years and 11 months. I decided that if I didn't feel like packing up the toys, I'd just go ahead and LEAVE them on the floor. It's so cool that for the past 5 years, my kids have experienced zero angst about packing up. Think of all the kids out there who've been harangued for YEARS about something that could be a total non-issue.
It's horrible to read that someone is "choosing to unschool, but my parenting will not change". Unschooling changed my parenting so much. Unschooling changed me! I am more confident, more at peace with myself, more loving, more patient. My children's happiness and incredible learning are the evidence that over the last 5 years my parenting has continued to improve, but they also provide instant feedback on where I can do better.
New ideas can be confronting, admitting error is hard, but I'd much rather being open to ideas and my own mistakes than being stuck and atrophying ... and worse, inflicting my faulty thinking on my kids.
Claire
Jenny Cyphers
***I am choosing to unschool, but my parenting with structure and gentle nudging will not change.***
I'm not sure that it's possible to unschool and not change. I don't think it's even possible to parent and not change. It seems impossible to do the same things over and over while children change and grow bigger and older. If this person has very very compliant children, I suppose it's possible? Some of the very best things that I've done as a person and parent have been exactly because I changed and grew when I needed to, to make the lives of my children better. The things I regret are the things that I thought I knew best and wasn't flexible enough to change. The things I don't regret at all are the things I've changed because they've all been in the direction of better.
***Sometimes "better" isn't much progress at all.***
Sometimes the bar is set really low. Thanks for keeping it set high!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm not sure that it's possible to unschool and not change. I don't think it's even possible to parent and not change. It seems impossible to do the same things over and over while children change and grow bigger and older. If this person has very very compliant children, I suppose it's possible? Some of the very best things that I've done as a person and parent have been exactly because I changed and grew when I needed to, to make the lives of my children better. The things I regret are the things that I thought I knew best and wasn't flexible enough to change. The things I don't regret at all are the things I've changed because they've all been in the direction of better.
***Sometimes "better" isn't much progress at all.***
Sometimes the bar is set really low. Thanks for keeping it set high!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Someone wrote to let me know that two of the links at the page http://sandradodd.com/s/rod were no longer good.
I've found a wayback machine version of the first one, which was an article in 1981, in Theology Today.
The first two parts of that drag on, about the Bible, and about the poem from which "spare the rod and spoil the child came" (and the poem is NOT in the Bible).
So to skip past the boringish parts, I wanted to let people know I had fixed the link, and wanted to bring what I htink is the most powerful part of the article here. From here down is quoted from Section V of the article Spanking Hurts Everybody, by Robert R. Gillogly. (There is also a Section VI.... there's more there.)
__________________________
Spanking is primarily an adult or parental problem. When the spanking situation is analyzed, in nearly every incident there is a personal problem of parents who resorted to the use of the "rod." It was really the adult ego that had been defied, an adult order disobeyed, an adult request denied, adult authority challenged, adult pride or adult respect offended.
The more one reflects on the popular practice of spanking, the more ridiculous the tragicomedy is revealed. A number of strange parenting contradictions become apparent. For example, aside from the obvious contradiction involved in hitting children for hitting each other, and telling them to "Stop your hitting!" one of the most ludicrous contradictions is to spank a child until it cries, for if it doesn't cry it hasn't been disciplined properly-it hasn't experienced enough pain to learn the lesson-and then tell it to stop crying or it'll get another spanking.
Another child rearing non sequitur surrounds the statement, "I am spanking you for your own good!" as if children are like Al Capp's "Schmoos," and love to be spanked. There is even a parenting primer entitled Spank Me if You Love Me based on the premise that spanking is a demonstration of care and should be administered lovingly. If true for children, why not similarly demonstrate our care and affection for our spouses and friends by spanking them? But that would be called assault and battery. Do we stop loving when we stop spanking? Does he who spanks hardest love best? When does a child deserve to be loved and disciplined, that is, spanked-three months, six months, nine months? When does a child outgrow the need? Obviously, when they have outgrown the spanking parent. As has been intimated earlier, very few six-feet, two-hundred pound children need to be spanked, even though their behavior may evoke the same frustrations in the parent as does the behavior of smaller siblings. Of course, size and strength, according to spanking parents, is supposed to have nothing whatsoever to do with who is or who is not spanked. And, of course, it is a child rearing contradiction of the first order for a parent to say "I'll teach you to pick on someone smaller than you; pick on someone your own size!" as the parent strikes the little bully who had provoked, poked, or punched-out his little sister. In effect, we punish him for learning his lesson from adults so thoroughly. Yet parents are shocked in watching their own children mimic their own actions.
It is terrifying to observe how parental practices are reflected in children's games and their interaction with siblings, peers, pets and even toys. "You're a bad boy!" Spank, spank. "You shouldn't do that! Naughty girl!" Spank, spank. We see in our children the quality of our parental example. For better or worse, the cycle tends to repeat itself in the next generation. The fact is we consistently do unto them what in no way would we tolerate being done unto us and we consistently do unto them what we in no way Would tolerate them doing unto one another.
http://web.archive.org/web/20110927212750/http://theologytoday.ptsem.edu/jan1981/v37-4-article1.htm
I've found a wayback machine version of the first one, which was an article in 1981, in Theology Today.
The first two parts of that drag on, about the Bible, and about the poem from which "spare the rod and spoil the child came" (and the poem is NOT in the Bible).
So to skip past the boringish parts, I wanted to let people know I had fixed the link, and wanted to bring what I htink is the most powerful part of the article here. From here down is quoted from Section V of the article Spanking Hurts Everybody, by Robert R. Gillogly. (There is also a Section VI.... there's more there.)
__________________________
Spanking is primarily an adult or parental problem. When the spanking situation is analyzed, in nearly every incident there is a personal problem of parents who resorted to the use of the "rod." It was really the adult ego that had been defied, an adult order disobeyed, an adult request denied, adult authority challenged, adult pride or adult respect offended.
The more one reflects on the popular practice of spanking, the more ridiculous the tragicomedy is revealed. A number of strange parenting contradictions become apparent. For example, aside from the obvious contradiction involved in hitting children for hitting each other, and telling them to "Stop your hitting!" one of the most ludicrous contradictions is to spank a child until it cries, for if it doesn't cry it hasn't been disciplined properly-it hasn't experienced enough pain to learn the lesson-and then tell it to stop crying or it'll get another spanking.
Another child rearing non sequitur surrounds the statement, "I am spanking you for your own good!" as if children are like Al Capp's "Schmoos," and love to be spanked. There is even a parenting primer entitled Spank Me if You Love Me based on the premise that spanking is a demonstration of care and should be administered lovingly. If true for children, why not similarly demonstrate our care and affection for our spouses and friends by spanking them? But that would be called assault and battery. Do we stop loving when we stop spanking? Does he who spanks hardest love best? When does a child deserve to be loved and disciplined, that is, spanked-three months, six months, nine months? When does a child outgrow the need? Obviously, when they have outgrown the spanking parent. As has been intimated earlier, very few six-feet, two-hundred pound children need to be spanked, even though their behavior may evoke the same frustrations in the parent as does the behavior of smaller siblings. Of course, size and strength, according to spanking parents, is supposed to have nothing whatsoever to do with who is or who is not spanked. And, of course, it is a child rearing contradiction of the first order for a parent to say "I'll teach you to pick on someone smaller than you; pick on someone your own size!" as the parent strikes the little bully who had provoked, poked, or punched-out his little sister. In effect, we punish him for learning his lesson from adults so thoroughly. Yet parents are shocked in watching their own children mimic their own actions.
It is terrifying to observe how parental practices are reflected in children's games and their interaction with siblings, peers, pets and even toys. "You're a bad boy!" Spank, spank. "You shouldn't do that! Naughty girl!" Spank, spank. We see in our children the quality of our parental example. For better or worse, the cycle tends to repeat itself in the next generation. The fact is we consistently do unto them what in no way would we tolerate being done unto us and we consistently do unto them what we in no way Would tolerate them doing unto one another.
http://web.archive.org/web/20110927212750/http://theologytoday.ptsem.edu/jan1981/v37-4-article1.htm
CASS KOTRBA
-=- It is terrifying to observe how parental practices are reflected in children's games and their interaction with siblings, peers, pets and even toys. "You're a bad boy!" Spank, spank. "You shouldn't do that! Naughty girl!" Spank, spank. -=-
My daughter went through a phase where she would get upset with our kitty for playing too roughly and she would lock him in the bathroom for a time out. It was a good example to me of how fruitless our former time-outs were! I told her that he wouldn't make a connection & there were better ways to teach him, such as leading their play times more gently. It amuses me that when I've tried to "teach" her it's ended up with her teaching me!
Happy Valentine's Day!
-Cass
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My daughter went through a phase where she would get upset with our kitty for playing too roughly and she would lock him in the bathroom for a time out. It was a good example to me of how fruitless our former time-outs were! I told her that he wouldn't make a connection & there were better ways to teach him, such as leading their play times more gently. It amuses me that when I've tried to "teach" her it's ended up with her teaching me!
Happy Valentine's Day!
-Cass
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
CASS KOTRBA
I just noticed I used the word "teach" way too many times in that paragraph! Ughh! I appreciate having this safe place to try out new thoughts. It is a scary thing for me to express myself but I learn so much each time I post and appreciate your patience as I fumble my way down this path!
-Cass
-Cass
----- Original Message -----
From: CASS KOTRBA<mailto:caskot@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] don't settle for better
-=- It is terrifying to observe how parental practices are reflected in children's games and their interaction with siblings, peers, pets and even toys. "You're a bad boy!" Spank, spank. "You shouldn't do that! Naughty girl!" Spank, spank. -=-
My daughter went through a phase where she would get upset with our kitty for playing too roughly and she would lock him in the bathroom for a time out. It was a good example to me of how fruitless our former time-outs were! I told her that he wouldn't make a connection & there were better ways to teach him, such as leading their play times more gently. It amuses me that when I've tried to "teach" her it's ended up with her teaching me!
Happy Valentine's Day!
-Cass
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mommy_singing
< It amuses me that when I've tried to "teach" her it's ended up with her teaching me!>
I've also found that my son "plays" with some of my discipline and with the discipline he sees around him. Two things he did the other day clued me into how I had interacted with him and others around him in the past.
My son asked to sit next to another child. The other child flatly refused. My son started shouting that he had to let him sit there. I moved my child to another spot, and he did not stay upset (just didn't know how to handle the refusal of his gesture for closer friendship).....That would be me losing it in the past and yelling at him in frustration - now I wait for another choice and choose the better option (love that advice).
Later in the same outing, my son had claimed a seat from earlier in the outing. Another child was sitting there. He was kind and gentle during this whole interaction. First he asked the child to move. Then he asked the child to share her seat. They started to share and I stepped in to ask him to find one of the nearby seats....Again this is a matter of working out and creating social expectations. That instance was a repeat of my asking another child to share his seat with a new girl when all the seats had been taken.
As for <don't settle for better> The second response was quite personally and interpersonally responsible of my son and I could take a step back and not intervene.
Theresa
I've also found that my son "plays" with some of my discipline and with the discipline he sees around him. Two things he did the other day clued me into how I had interacted with him and others around him in the past.
My son asked to sit next to another child. The other child flatly refused. My son started shouting that he had to let him sit there. I moved my child to another spot, and he did not stay upset (just didn't know how to handle the refusal of his gesture for closer friendship).....That would be me losing it in the past and yelling at him in frustration - now I wait for another choice and choose the better option (love that advice).
Later in the same outing, my son had claimed a seat from earlier in the outing. Another child was sitting there. He was kind and gentle during this whole interaction. First he asked the child to move. Then he asked the child to share her seat. They started to share and I stepped in to ask him to find one of the nearby seats....Again this is a matter of working out and creating social expectations. That instance was a repeat of my asking another child to share his seat with a new girl when all the seats had been taken.
As for <don't settle for better> The second response was quite personally and interpersonally responsible of my son and I could take a step back and not intervene.
Theresa
Pam Sorooshian
On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 11:04 AM, mommy_singing <theresame2000@...>wrote:
right? But then when the girl was willing to share, you did step in and ask
him to move to another seat? Why didn't you let them share? And what did
you mean that you could take a step back and not intervene - seems like you
stepped in and intervened.
Confused.
The point of "don't settle for better," is that doing better is good but
then don't settle for that level of better, keep on trying to do even
better with every choice. Sandra meant it to apply to us, the parents, in
trying to be better (and better) parents. You seem to be applying it to
your child, maybe?
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>I couldn't quite follow this - the second response was him asking to share,
> Later in the same outing, my son had claimed a seat from earlier in the
> outing. Another child was sitting there. He was kind and gentle during
> this whole interaction. First he asked the child to move. Then he asked
> the child to share her seat. They started to share and I stepped in to
> ask him to find one of the nearby seats....Again this is a matter of
> working out and creating social expectations. That instance was a repeat
> of my asking another child to share his seat with a new girl when all the
> seats had been taken.
>
> As for <don't settle for better> The second response was quite
> personally and interpersonally responsible of my son and I could take a
> step back and not intervene.<<<
>
right? But then when the girl was willing to share, you did step in and ask
him to move to another seat? Why didn't you let them share? And what did
you mean that you could take a step back and not intervene - seems like you
stepped in and intervened.
Confused.
The point of "don't settle for better," is that doing better is good but
then don't settle for that level of better, keep on trying to do even
better with every choice. Sandra meant it to apply to us, the parents, in
trying to be better (and better) parents. You seem to be applying it to
your child, maybe?
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mommy_singing
<Why didn't you let them share? And what did
you mean that you could take a step back and not intervene - seems like you
stepped in and intervened.>
Yes, I intervened. Please accept the following clarification.
The better for parenting is in this order from worse, to better, to even better.
Worse: yelling.
Better: directing a child to share.
Even better: letting the children figure out the sharing.
The reason for responding to the thread was to show that my son also copies my parenting in his play. The following is the order for copying my parenting. The copying behavior follows the list: worse, better, even better.
Worse: yelling - he yelled at his friend for not sharing the seat next to him.
Better: He wanted a seat and worked out sharing the seat with the child next to him.
Even better: I was putting my future choice to not intervene (my better) into his life and expecting that he would have a more relaxed social experience if I did not intervene when he had worked out a "contract" with another child.
<Why did I intervene?>
I intervened, because I saw that there was a seat completely free at the table that he could sit in and that he did not have to share a seat with the girl. Since he did not have to share, I thought that it could be an infringement on the other child's physical space for him to sit in the same chair as her. So I gently suggested that he sit a different chair. My son is 7 and the other child was 4 or 5 and not someone we had met before.
you mean that you could take a step back and not intervene - seems like you
stepped in and intervened.>
Yes, I intervened. Please accept the following clarification.
The better for parenting is in this order from worse, to better, to even better.
Worse: yelling.
Better: directing a child to share.
Even better: letting the children figure out the sharing.
The reason for responding to the thread was to show that my son also copies my parenting in his play. The following is the order for copying my parenting. The copying behavior follows the list: worse, better, even better.
Worse: yelling - he yelled at his friend for not sharing the seat next to him.
Better: He wanted a seat and worked out sharing the seat with the child next to him.
Even better: I was putting my future choice to not intervene (my better) into his life and expecting that he would have a more relaxed social experience if I did not intervene when he had worked out a "contract" with another child.
<Why did I intervene?>
I intervened, because I saw that there was a seat completely free at the table that he could sit in and that he did not have to share a seat with the girl. Since he did not have to share, I thought that it could be an infringement on the other child's physical space for him to sit in the same chair as her. So I gently suggested that he sit a different chair. My son is 7 and the other child was 4 or 5 and not someone we had met before.
Pam Sorooshian
On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 1:28 PM, mommy_singing <theresame2000@...>wrote:
is how he then tends to treat others? Good point.
I'm not super thrilled with the idea that it is necessarily "even better"
to not intervene/let children figure things out on their own. Parents use
that for justifying using logical or natural consequences in ways that can
be pretty meanspirited. And kids very very often need us to step in and
intervene.
There is more to it than either intervene or not intervene...right? There
is knowing when to do it and when not to. Sometimes, not intervening means
kids learn the parent is not protecting, helping, supporting, attentive.
Sometimes intervening means kids learn the parent doesn't trust them,
doesn't approve of their choices, won't let them try to resolve problems
themselves.
Sometimes unschoolers seem to me to glorify the "not intervening" times too
much, at the expense of recognizing when stepping in is a good thing.
Intervening isn't necessarily bad - it can be supportive, kind, helpful,
informative, and thoughtful. That's why I was trying to clarify that part
of the story.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The better for parenting is in this order from worse, to better, to evenThanks, that was more clear. The point was that the way you treat your son
> better.
>
> Worse: yelling.
> Better: directing a child to share.
> Even better: letting the children figure out the sharing.
>
>>>
is how he then tends to treat others? Good point.
I'm not super thrilled with the idea that it is necessarily "even better"
to not intervene/let children figure things out on their own. Parents use
that for justifying using logical or natural consequences in ways that can
be pretty meanspirited. And kids very very often need us to step in and
intervene.
There is more to it than either intervene or not intervene...right? There
is knowing when to do it and when not to. Sometimes, not intervening means
kids learn the parent is not protecting, helping, supporting, attentive.
Sometimes intervening means kids learn the parent doesn't trust them,
doesn't approve of their choices, won't let them try to resolve problems
themselves.
Sometimes unschoolers seem to me to glorify the "not intervening" times too
much, at the expense of recognizing when stepping in is a good thing.
Intervening isn't necessarily bad - it can be supportive, kind, helpful,
informative, and thoughtful. That's why I was trying to clarify that part
of the story.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Pam Sorooshian wrote:
---Meredith
>> There is more to it than either intervene or not intervene...right? ThereAnd sometimes part of knowing is watching a little, being close enough that kids can ask for help, close enough that you can jump in if necessary, or offer a comment or idea. There are a lot of options in between swooping in and taking over on the one hand and doing nothing on the other.
> is knowing when to do it and when not to.
---Meredith