Re: [AlwaysLearning] Spiders!
[email protected]
On Thu, 16 May 2002 08:57:06 -0700 Nancy Wooton <ikonstitcher@...>
writes:
snopes.com (my site of choice for urban legend-checking), but if you
actually go to the page http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/longlegs.htm
you can see the photos, too...
Dar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Claim: The daddy longlegs is the "world's most poisonous animal."
Status: False.
Example: [Collected on the Internet, 2000]
The most poisonous animal, believe it or not, is the daddy long legs,
however, it's mouth is so small, it cannot bite us.
Origins: A popular "fact" these days, especially among youngsters, is
the notion that the North American arachnid commonly called a daddy
longlegs (and also known as a harvestman) is "the world's most poisonous"
animal.
This one is pretty easy to dispose of. First of all, the daddy longlegs
isn't "poisonous" at all. Poisonous animals give off toxins which are
absorbed when they are touched or eaten by attackers; spiders are an
example of venomous creatures, which transmit toxins by injecting them
into their victims. And the honor of the world's most poisonous animal is
generally awarded to the South American poison dart frog or the box
jellyfish.
The daddy longlegs isn't technically a spider, but even if it were, it
wouldn't be the world's most venomous one of those, either -- that prize
is claimed by the funnel web spider or the brown recluse spider. The
daddy longlegs isn't "poisonous" (or venomous) at all. In fact, it
doesn't even bite and poses absolutely no threat to human beings (other
than sometimes emitting a foul smell).
Some of the confusion undoubtedly stems from a North American
perspective, since more than one critter in the world is referred to as
"daddy longlegs." The crane fly, an unrelated winged insect which looks
like a large mosquito, is also called daddy longlegs in some parts of the
world (such as England), but it too is a non-venomous, non-biting
creature. Pholcus phalangioides, also known as the long-legged cellar
spider, is another example of a "daddy longlegs," probably the one
referred to here as being the world's "most poisonous animal":
Although Pholcus phalangioides is indeed a spider and is venomous to
boot, it is (as suggested) far too small to pose any threat to human
beings, so the strength of its venom is moot.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> Aren't all spiders poisonous? I read somewhere (or my kids did, andof
> told me) that a daddy longlegs (though not a spider - thanks, Bill Nye)
> is the most venomous creature you'll meet, but it's mouth is incapable
> biting a person, and the quantity of venom is very small; it's only adanger
> to bugs. It's rather ethnocentric to think only in terms of what ispoisonous
> to humans <g>This is an urban legend, albeit a good one :-) Here's the info from
snopes.com (my site of choice for urban legend-checking), but if you
actually go to the page http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/longlegs.htm
you can see the photos, too...
Dar
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Claim: The daddy longlegs is the "world's most poisonous animal."
Status: False.
Example: [Collected on the Internet, 2000]
The most poisonous animal, believe it or not, is the daddy long legs,
however, it's mouth is so small, it cannot bite us.
Origins: A popular "fact" these days, especially among youngsters, is
the notion that the North American arachnid commonly called a daddy
longlegs (and also known as a harvestman) is "the world's most poisonous"
animal.
This one is pretty easy to dispose of. First of all, the daddy longlegs
isn't "poisonous" at all. Poisonous animals give off toxins which are
absorbed when they are touched or eaten by attackers; spiders are an
example of venomous creatures, which transmit toxins by injecting them
into their victims. And the honor of the world's most poisonous animal is
generally awarded to the South American poison dart frog or the box
jellyfish.
The daddy longlegs isn't technically a spider, but even if it were, it
wouldn't be the world's most venomous one of those, either -- that prize
is claimed by the funnel web spider or the brown recluse spider. The
daddy longlegs isn't "poisonous" (or venomous) at all. In fact, it
doesn't even bite and poses absolutely no threat to human beings (other
than sometimes emitting a foul smell).
Some of the confusion undoubtedly stems from a North American
perspective, since more than one critter in the world is referred to as
"daddy longlegs." The crane fly, an unrelated winged insect which looks
like a large mosquito, is also called daddy longlegs in some parts of the
world (such as England), but it too is a non-venomous, non-biting
creature. Pholcus phalangioides, also known as the long-legged cellar
spider, is another example of a "daddy longlegs," probably the one
referred to here as being the world's "most poisonous animal":
Although Pholcus phalangioides is indeed a spider and is venomous to
boot, it is (as suggested) far too small to pose any threat to human
beings, so the strength of its venom is moot.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen
I love snopes, too. This site gave even a better explanation, though, since
the snopes article referred to a daddy longlegs as an arachnid that wasn't a
true spider, and this explains it:
http://spiders.ucr.edu/daddylonglegs.html
DADDY-LONGLEGS ARE ONE OF THE MOST POISONOUS SPIDERS BUT THEIR FANGS ARE TOO
SHORT TO BITE HUMANS
This tale has been lurking around for years. I have heard it repeatedly in
the United States and even heard a schoolteacher misinforming her class at a
museum in Brisbane, Australia. This is incorrect, but to clarify it, several
points need to be explained first.
The animals
Most folks who retell this tale have no idea that they are referring to two
completely separate groups of animals: "daddy-longlegs" and "daddy-longlegs
spiders". In the animal class Arachnida, there are several lower level
divisions called Orders. Scorpions are in the Order Scorpiones, spiders are
in the Order Araneae, ticks and mites are in the Order Acari.
The creatures most correctly called daddy-longlegs are in their own separate
Order which is Opiliones. Common names for this Order are 1) daddy-longlegs,
2) harvestmen and 3) opilionids. They are characterized by having one basic
body segment which shows segmentation on the posterior portion, at most 2
eyes and all 8 legs attach to the pill-like body segment. They are usually
found under logs and rocks, prefer moist habitat although they can be found
in the desert, often have long flexible legs (in the temperate Northern
hemisphere but there are also short-legged daddy-longlegs) and they do not
produce silk so therefore they are never found in webs unless they are being
eaten by spiders. Because they are found under logs and other stuff which
people most often are not turning over, most folks don't run into
daddy-longlegs very often.
Another creature often called daddy-longlegs are actually spiders. These
long-legged spiders are in the family Pholcidae. Previously the common name
of this family was the cellar spiders but arachnologists have also given
them the moniker of "daddy-longlegs spiders" because of the confusion
generated by the general public. Because these arachnids are spiders, they
have 2 body basic body parts (cephalothorax and abdomen), have 8 eyes most
often clumped together in the front of the body, the abdomen shows no
evidence of segmentation, have 8 legs all attached to the front most body
part (the cephalothorax) and make webs out of silk. This is most probably
the animal to which people refer when they tell the tale because these
spiders are plentiful especially in cellars (hence their common name) and
are commonly seen by the general public. The most common pholcid spiders
found in U.S. homes are both European immigrants. Pholcus phalangioides is a
uniformly grey spider with rectangular, elongate abdomen and is found
throughout the U.S. Holocnemus pluchei also has a rectangular, elongate
abdomen but has a brown stripe on the ventral side (the belly side - which
is typically directed upwards since the spider hangs upside down in its web)
which covers its sternum and is a stripe on the abdomen. These spiders are
very common along the Pacific Coast. and into the southwest deserts.
Possible envenomation
Is there any truth to this oft-repeated tale?
Daddy-longlegs (Opiliones) - these arachnids make their living by eating
decomposing vegetative and animal matter although are opportunist predators
if they can get away with it. They do not have venom glands, fangs or any
other mechanism for chemically subduing their food. Therefore, they do not
have poison and, by the powers of logic, cannot be poisonous from venom.
Some have defensive secretions that might be poisonous to small animals if
ingested. So, for these daddy-long-legs, the tale is clearly false.
Daddy-longlegs spiders (Pholcidae) - Here, the myth is incorrect at least in
making claims that have no basis in known facts. There is no reference to
any pholcid spider biting a human and causing any detrimental reaction. If
these spiders were indeed deadly poisonous but couldn't bite humans, then
the only way we would know that they are poisonous is by milking them and
injecting the venom into humans. For a variety of reasons including Amnesty
International and a humanitarian code of ethics, this research has never
been done. Furthermore, there are no toxicological studies testing the
lethality of pholcid venom on any mammalian system (this is usually done
with mice). Therefore, no information is available on the likely toxic
effects of their venom in humans, so the part of the myth about their being
especially poisonous is just that: a myth. There is no scientific basis for
the supposition that they are deadly poisonous and there is no reason to
assume that it is true.
What about their fangs being too short to penetrate human skin? Pholcids do
indeed have short fangs, which in arachnological terms is called "uncate"
because they have a secondary tooth which meets the fang like the way the
two grabbing parts of a pair of tongs come together. Brown recluse spiders
similarly have uncate fang structure and they obviously are able to bite
humans. There may be a difference in the musculature that houses the fang
such that recluses have stronger muscles for penetration because they are
hunting spiders needing to subdue prey whereas pholcid spiders are able to
wrap their prey and don't need as strong a musculature. So, again, the myth
states as fact something about which there is no scientific basis.
In summary
For true daddy-long-legs, the opilionids, the myth is certainly false, and
for the daddy-long-legs spiders it is certainly not based on known facts.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the snopes article referred to a daddy longlegs as an arachnid that wasn't a
true spider, and this explains it:
http://spiders.ucr.edu/daddylonglegs.html
DADDY-LONGLEGS ARE ONE OF THE MOST POISONOUS SPIDERS BUT THEIR FANGS ARE TOO
SHORT TO BITE HUMANS
This tale has been lurking around for years. I have heard it repeatedly in
the United States and even heard a schoolteacher misinforming her class at a
museum in Brisbane, Australia. This is incorrect, but to clarify it, several
points need to be explained first.
The animals
Most folks who retell this tale have no idea that they are referring to two
completely separate groups of animals: "daddy-longlegs" and "daddy-longlegs
spiders". In the animal class Arachnida, there are several lower level
divisions called Orders. Scorpions are in the Order Scorpiones, spiders are
in the Order Araneae, ticks and mites are in the Order Acari.
The creatures most correctly called daddy-longlegs are in their own separate
Order which is Opiliones. Common names for this Order are 1) daddy-longlegs,
2) harvestmen and 3) opilionids. They are characterized by having one basic
body segment which shows segmentation on the posterior portion, at most 2
eyes and all 8 legs attach to the pill-like body segment. They are usually
found under logs and rocks, prefer moist habitat although they can be found
in the desert, often have long flexible legs (in the temperate Northern
hemisphere but there are also short-legged daddy-longlegs) and they do not
produce silk so therefore they are never found in webs unless they are being
eaten by spiders. Because they are found under logs and other stuff which
people most often are not turning over, most folks don't run into
daddy-longlegs very often.
Another creature often called daddy-longlegs are actually spiders. These
long-legged spiders are in the family Pholcidae. Previously the common name
of this family was the cellar spiders but arachnologists have also given
them the moniker of "daddy-longlegs spiders" because of the confusion
generated by the general public. Because these arachnids are spiders, they
have 2 body basic body parts (cephalothorax and abdomen), have 8 eyes most
often clumped together in the front of the body, the abdomen shows no
evidence of segmentation, have 8 legs all attached to the front most body
part (the cephalothorax) and make webs out of silk. This is most probably
the animal to which people refer when they tell the tale because these
spiders are plentiful especially in cellars (hence their common name) and
are commonly seen by the general public. The most common pholcid spiders
found in U.S. homes are both European immigrants. Pholcus phalangioides is a
uniformly grey spider with rectangular, elongate abdomen and is found
throughout the U.S. Holocnemus pluchei also has a rectangular, elongate
abdomen but has a brown stripe on the ventral side (the belly side - which
is typically directed upwards since the spider hangs upside down in its web)
which covers its sternum and is a stripe on the abdomen. These spiders are
very common along the Pacific Coast. and into the southwest deserts.
Possible envenomation
Is there any truth to this oft-repeated tale?
Daddy-longlegs (Opiliones) - these arachnids make their living by eating
decomposing vegetative and animal matter although are opportunist predators
if they can get away with it. They do not have venom glands, fangs or any
other mechanism for chemically subduing their food. Therefore, they do not
have poison and, by the powers of logic, cannot be poisonous from venom.
Some have defensive secretions that might be poisonous to small animals if
ingested. So, for these daddy-long-legs, the tale is clearly false.
Daddy-longlegs spiders (Pholcidae) - Here, the myth is incorrect at least in
making claims that have no basis in known facts. There is no reference to
any pholcid spider biting a human and causing any detrimental reaction. If
these spiders were indeed deadly poisonous but couldn't bite humans, then
the only way we would know that they are poisonous is by milking them and
injecting the venom into humans. For a variety of reasons including Amnesty
International and a humanitarian code of ethics, this research has never
been done. Furthermore, there are no toxicological studies testing the
lethality of pholcid venom on any mammalian system (this is usually done
with mice). Therefore, no information is available on the likely toxic
effects of their venom in humans, so the part of the myth about their being
especially poisonous is just that: a myth. There is no scientific basis for
the supposition that they are deadly poisonous and there is no reason to
assume that it is true.
What about their fangs being too short to penetrate human skin? Pholcids do
indeed have short fangs, which in arachnological terms is called "uncate"
because they have a secondary tooth which meets the fang like the way the
two grabbing parts of a pair of tongs come together. Brown recluse spiders
similarly have uncate fang structure and they obviously are able to bite
humans. There may be a difference in the musculature that houses the fang
such that recluses have stronger muscles for penetration because they are
hunting spiders needing to subdue prey whereas pholcid spiders are able to
wrap their prey and don't need as strong a musculature. So, again, the myth
states as fact something about which there is no scientific basis.
In summary
For true daddy-long-legs, the opilionids, the myth is certainly false, and
for the daddy-long-legs spiders it is certainly not based on known facts.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nancy Wooton
on 5/16/02 10:50 AM, freeform@... at freeform@... wrote:
can't trust my own kids anymore???
Nancy
>> Aren't all spiders poisonous? I read somewhere (or my kids did, andWow! And I usually check everything out at Snopes... Does this mean I
>> told me) that a daddy longlegs (though not a spider - thanks, Bill Nye)
>
>> is the most venomous creature you'll meet, but it's mouth is incapable
> of
>> biting a person, and the quantity of venom is very small; it's only a
> danger
>> to bugs. It's rather ethnocentric to think only in terms of what is
> poisonous
>> to humans <g>
>
> This is an urban legend, albeit a good one :-) Here's the info from
> snopes.com (my site of choice for urban legend-checking), but if you
> actually go to the page http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/longlegs.htm
> you can see the photos, too...
can't trust my own kids anymore???
Nancy
Shyrley
I've just spent 20 mins shouting at my kids and I feel terrible. I'm
finding homeschooling, let along unschooling difficult and
sometimes wish I could just send them to school.
This week we got our CAT tests to do, to fulfill Virginia
requirtements and the children don't want to do them. My husband
seems to think that they should get 90%+ in order to prove that
'unschooling' works (he's amathematician, you'd think he would
know that average is 50% but he's always scored top marks in
every test or exam he looked at and he was top of his year for the
whole country in his maths degree). I tried pointing out to him that
if they were in school, years of boredom would have resulted in not
only low marks but disaffectation with learning itself but because
he enjoyed school he doesn't believe me. accused me of making
up psychobabble. He cited all the homeschoolers we know who's
kids can't read by 8 or so, said I was ruining my children's life
through sticking to a philosophy that was 'unproven' (he's a
scientist, can you tell?)
Then he cited all the other homeschoolers who score in national
tests, who are building rockets by the time they are 6, who spend
ages reading books, who are maths geniuses (are these the same
ones who can't read?), who spend all day excited by microscopes
etc etc.
When my daughter was in school (from age 4 to 8) she was at
least 6 years head of her peers in maths. Now that she is 10 and
has been homeschooled for 2 years, she is not. She's maybe 2
years ahead in some areas and average in others. He ranted on
about that too.
I feel fed up with the lack of support. I feel guilty that everyone else
is buying curricula and spending all day conducting science
experiements. I am tired from fighting with my children all day
about everything. This morning they are refusing to eat because the
bread is american.
They've been de-schooling for 2 years. Why are they not interested
in anything? How can I prove to the state that learning is taking
place if they wont do the tests?
Sorry for the rant.
Shyrley the desperate
"Common sense is what tells you that the world is flat"
finding homeschooling, let along unschooling difficult and
sometimes wish I could just send them to school.
This week we got our CAT tests to do, to fulfill Virginia
requirtements and the children don't want to do them. My husband
seems to think that they should get 90%+ in order to prove that
'unschooling' works (he's amathematician, you'd think he would
know that average is 50% but he's always scored top marks in
every test or exam he looked at and he was top of his year for the
whole country in his maths degree). I tried pointing out to him that
if they were in school, years of boredom would have resulted in not
only low marks but disaffectation with learning itself but because
he enjoyed school he doesn't believe me. accused me of making
up psychobabble. He cited all the homeschoolers we know who's
kids can't read by 8 or so, said I was ruining my children's life
through sticking to a philosophy that was 'unproven' (he's a
scientist, can you tell?)
Then he cited all the other homeschoolers who score in national
tests, who are building rockets by the time they are 6, who spend
ages reading books, who are maths geniuses (are these the same
ones who can't read?), who spend all day excited by microscopes
etc etc.
When my daughter was in school (from age 4 to 8) she was at
least 6 years head of her peers in maths. Now that she is 10 and
has been homeschooled for 2 years, she is not. She's maybe 2
years ahead in some areas and average in others. He ranted on
about that too.
I feel fed up with the lack of support. I feel guilty that everyone else
is buying curricula and spending all day conducting science
experiements. I am tired from fighting with my children all day
about everything. This morning they are refusing to eat because the
bread is american.
They've been de-schooling for 2 years. Why are they not interested
in anything? How can I prove to the state that learning is taking
place if they wont do the tests?
Sorry for the rant.
Shyrley the desperate
"Common sense is what tells you that the world is flat"
Sharon Rudd
Poor Shyrley, poor kids.........blame that damned MS.
It wrecks your stamina.
Have you thought about an umbrella school....in FL we
have two that are unschooling more than friendly.
Clonlara (did I spell it right?), to which Sandra once
sent me a link is national....perhaps that, or
something similar might be an option. Are you and the
children still UK citizens? You may be exempt. As US
citizens in Urawa, Japan we were exempt from Japanese
requirements. And too far away for US (we were
non-military). :-)
Perhaps a few phone calls and your visa could solve
the delima? maybe?
I hear some of the same stuff from my DH. Whenever DH
doesn't like how Roy approaches a problem (how to get
out of doing what DH thinks he should) DH says he is
"Like he is becuase of how you (me) treat him." He
also says he has learned to argue from me, that it is
useless to try tell either of us anything. BWG. He
doesn't see the humour in that:-( But I DEBATE . This
is very frustrating to him. I use facts, samples,
quotes, figures, and state clearly when and if it is
somehting that I care about. Usually the ussues are
things of which he is ignorant, except for info I have
provided, so oh well. Perhaps you and the kids could
make up some graphs or other visuals? Just for fun, on
a flip chart...like a coorporate sales presentation.
How could he help but to be impressed?
The kids will be OK to not eat one breakfast at
breakfast time. Unschooling....remember....
Sometimes I still have (feel compelled) to put the
bites in Roy's mouth (he isn't really concerned if he
doesn't have to stop what he is doing)....he gets so
interested in other things, he forgets to eat....this
drives his Daddy bonkers...he feels it is too babyish
and that I molly-coddle him too much. If I really want
to pull his chain I can refer to Beethoven and his
toilet/piano bench (dunno if that is really real or
myth)....
Hope this helps you to feel a little better.
How are your aches and pains? Can you sleep? Perhaps
you are trying to do TOO much, and DH's lack of
physical help and sympathy and understanding for MS as
well as unschooling is part your frustration. Are the
children sympathetic to your pain? Or do you try to
conceal it?
What are the penalties for omitting the tests?
Sharon of the Swamp
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com
It wrecks your stamina.
Have you thought about an umbrella school....in FL we
have two that are unschooling more than friendly.
Clonlara (did I spell it right?), to which Sandra once
sent me a link is national....perhaps that, or
something similar might be an option. Are you and the
children still UK citizens? You may be exempt. As US
citizens in Urawa, Japan we were exempt from Japanese
requirements. And too far away for US (we were
non-military). :-)
Perhaps a few phone calls and your visa could solve
the delima? maybe?
I hear some of the same stuff from my DH. Whenever DH
doesn't like how Roy approaches a problem (how to get
out of doing what DH thinks he should) DH says he is
"Like he is becuase of how you (me) treat him." He
also says he has learned to argue from me, that it is
useless to try tell either of us anything. BWG. He
doesn't see the humour in that:-( But I DEBATE . This
is very frustrating to him. I use facts, samples,
quotes, figures, and state clearly when and if it is
somehting that I care about. Usually the ussues are
things of which he is ignorant, except for info I have
provided, so oh well. Perhaps you and the kids could
make up some graphs or other visuals? Just for fun, on
a flip chart...like a coorporate sales presentation.
How could he help but to be impressed?
The kids will be OK to not eat one breakfast at
breakfast time. Unschooling....remember....
Sometimes I still have (feel compelled) to put the
bites in Roy's mouth (he isn't really concerned if he
doesn't have to stop what he is doing)....he gets so
interested in other things, he forgets to eat....this
drives his Daddy bonkers...he feels it is too babyish
and that I molly-coddle him too much. If I really want
to pull his chain I can refer to Beethoven and his
toilet/piano bench (dunno if that is really real or
myth)....
Hope this helps you to feel a little better.
How are your aches and pains? Can you sleep? Perhaps
you are trying to do TOO much, and DH's lack of
physical help and sympathy and understanding for MS as
well as unschooling is part your frustration. Are the
children sympathetic to your pain? Or do you try to
conceal it?
What are the penalties for omitting the tests?
Sharon of the Swamp
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com
Elizabeth Hill
**I tried pointing out to him that
if they were in school, years of boredom would have resulted in not
only low marks but disaffectation with learning itself but because
he enjoyed school he doesn't believe me. accused me of making
up psychobabble.**
I hope I won't offend you by saying this, as I know you are feeling very
stressed right now. But, I feel compelled to say that I think your
husband is being a jerk.
(I suppose that's not very helpful, unless it validates what you are
already feeling.)
His response to your arguments is dismissive, and practically accuses
you of lying. I don't think that that is a respectful or loving way for
him to treat you.
It sounds like he really believes a high test score really makes a
person superior. It also seems that he may want the kids to get high
scores just to bolster up his self-esteem.
In my house, I'm the one that always got 99th percentile on all the
standard tests. (So it's easy for me to say that they don't mean
anything. And your husband HAS to believe me, because -- LOOK -- the
test says I'm smart. ::: winking ::: ) My husband is the one who had a
learning style that didn't fit school, but remembers more than I do, and
knows more about life than I do.
(We *do* argue. I *will* confess that I am not perfect. I have been
known to yell. And I personally sometimes worry about the very laidback
nature of unschooling at our house, so I have some empathy for you
there.)
Best wishes,
Betsy
if they were in school, years of boredom would have resulted in not
only low marks but disaffectation with learning itself but because
he enjoyed school he doesn't believe me. accused me of making
up psychobabble.**
I hope I won't offend you by saying this, as I know you are feeling very
stressed right now. But, I feel compelled to say that I think your
husband is being a jerk.
(I suppose that's not very helpful, unless it validates what you are
already feeling.)
His response to your arguments is dismissive, and practically accuses
you of lying. I don't think that that is a respectful or loving way for
him to treat you.
It sounds like he really believes a high test score really makes a
person superior. It also seems that he may want the kids to get high
scores just to bolster up his self-esteem.
In my house, I'm the one that always got 99th percentile on all the
standard tests. (So it's easy for me to say that they don't mean
anything. And your husband HAS to believe me, because -- LOOK -- the
test says I'm smart. ::: winking ::: ) My husband is the one who had a
learning style that didn't fit school, but remembers more than I do, and
knows more about life than I do.
(We *do* argue. I *will* confess that I am not perfect. I have been
known to yell. And I personally sometimes worry about the very laidback
nature of unschooling at our house, so I have some empathy for you
there.)
Best wishes,
Betsy
Nancy Wooton
on 5/17/02 7:22 AM, Sharon Rudd at bearspawprint@... wrote:
joke:
What's brown and sits on a piano bench?
Beethoven's Fifth Movement.
Nancy, who has a sore throat and doesn't feel like doing anything but
e-mail.
> If I really wantIf you put "beethoven toilet piano bench" in a google field, you'll get this
> to pull his chain I can refer to Beethoven and his
> toilet/piano bench (dunno if that is really real or
> myth)....
joke:
What's brown and sits on a piano bench?
Beethoven's Fifth Movement.
Nancy, who has a sore throat and doesn't feel like doing anything but
e-mail.
Pam Hartley
----------
I feel fed up with the lack of support.
----------
That's problem #1 and the biggest. If your husband doesn't understand and
endorse unschooling, or at the very LEAST understand and endorse that you
will not intentionally screw up your kids and that you've done a lot of work
and research on this and can be trusted, I don't know how you do it, either.
This is a marriage problem, not a homeschooling problem, and his undermining
it has got to stop if you're going to be able to go on with anything
resembling peace and prosperity.
If he's going to go around ranting about a child who is "not ahead enough"
or "average" or "behind" even, he's toxic to the unschooling environment,
for you AND the kids.
----------
I feel guilty that everyone else
is buying curricula and spending all day conducting science
experiements. I am tired from fighting with my children all day
about everything. This morning they are refusing to eat because the
bread is american.
----------
Is there some reason you're fighting with them about things like not wanting
to eat a particular thing? Is there some reason not to say, "Okay, let's go
to the grocery store"?
----------
They've been de-schooling for 2 years. Why are they not interested
in anything?
----------
They're interested in not eating american bread (er, what IS american bread?
Bread made in America, or a brand?) If you mean that they are not interested
in anything academic, such interest is not and cannot be the measure of
success in unschooling.
I don't believe they are not interested in "anything". What do they and you
do all day every day? What are their hobbies? Where do you go?
----------
How can I prove to the state that learning is taking
place if they wont do the tests?
----------
I would be focusing my energy not on proving anything to the state, but in
making any absolutely necessary hoop-jumping as problem-free for my children
as possible. There may be other alternatives: what happens if they don't
take the test? What happens if they take the test but do poorly on it? What
are the loopholes? Post a note on the Virginia board at www.unschooling.com
and ask.
If they DO have to take the test and there ARE real and nasty penalties for
poor performance, I would have no moral problem with taking the test for
them and turning it in, or making it an open-book
let's-all-get-this-blasted-thing-done-together scenario.
Loopholes. Find them, love them.
Your husband. Talk to him, convert him.
If he's unconvertible, I'm sorry.
MHOs,
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I feel fed up with the lack of support.
----------
That's problem #1 and the biggest. If your husband doesn't understand and
endorse unschooling, or at the very LEAST understand and endorse that you
will not intentionally screw up your kids and that you've done a lot of work
and research on this and can be trusted, I don't know how you do it, either.
This is a marriage problem, not a homeschooling problem, and his undermining
it has got to stop if you're going to be able to go on with anything
resembling peace and prosperity.
If he's going to go around ranting about a child who is "not ahead enough"
or "average" or "behind" even, he's toxic to the unschooling environment,
for you AND the kids.
----------
I feel guilty that everyone else
is buying curricula and spending all day conducting science
experiements. I am tired from fighting with my children all day
about everything. This morning they are refusing to eat because the
bread is american.
----------
Is there some reason you're fighting with them about things like not wanting
to eat a particular thing? Is there some reason not to say, "Okay, let's go
to the grocery store"?
----------
They've been de-schooling for 2 years. Why are they not interested
in anything?
----------
They're interested in not eating american bread (er, what IS american bread?
Bread made in America, or a brand?) If you mean that they are not interested
in anything academic, such interest is not and cannot be the measure of
success in unschooling.
I don't believe they are not interested in "anything". What do they and you
do all day every day? What are their hobbies? Where do you go?
----------
How can I prove to the state that learning is taking
place if they wont do the tests?
----------
I would be focusing my energy not on proving anything to the state, but in
making any absolutely necessary hoop-jumping as problem-free for my children
as possible. There may be other alternatives: what happens if they don't
take the test? What happens if they take the test but do poorly on it? What
are the loopholes? Post a note on the Virginia board at www.unschooling.com
and ask.
If they DO have to take the test and there ARE real and nasty penalties for
poor performance, I would have no moral problem with taking the test for
them and turning it in, or making it an open-book
let's-all-get-this-blasted-thing-done-together scenario.
Loopholes. Find them, love them.
Your husband. Talk to him, convert him.
If he's unconvertible, I'm sorry.
MHOs,
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/17/02 10:01:53 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:
<< In my house, I'm the one that always got 99th percentile on all the
standard tests. (So it's easy for me to say that they don't mean
anything. And your husband HAS to believe me, because -- LOOK -- the
test says I'm smart. ::: winking ::: ) >>
That IS a freakish problem. If someone says "Test scores aren't that
important; IQ isn't that important," then the people assume the speaker's are
low so you don't think they're important. Or if they know the person's ARE
high, they think "Ooooh... she says they're not important, and she should
know because her scores are so high! I wish I had high scores like that too
so I could think they weren't important."
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Sandra
<< In my house, I'm the one that always got 99th percentile on all the
standard tests. (So it's easy for me to say that they don't mean
anything. And your husband HAS to believe me, because -- LOOK -- the
test says I'm smart. ::: winking ::: ) >>
That IS a freakish problem. If someone says "Test scores aren't that
important; IQ isn't that important," then the people assume the speaker's are
low so you don't think they're important. Or if they know the person's ARE
high, they think "Ooooh... she says they're not important, and she should
know because her scores are so high! I wish I had high scores like that too
so I could think they weren't important."
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Sandra
Fetteroll
on 5/18/02 2:24 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
you already acheived what we're trying to acheive." Sort of like a wealthy
person saying money doesn't mean anything! ;-)
Joyce
> Or if they know the person's AREOr they can say "Well, yeah, easy for you to say they aren't important since
> high, they think "Ooooh... she says they're not important, and she should
> know because her scores are so high! I wish I had high scores like that too
> so I could think they weren't important."
>
> Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
you already acheived what we're trying to acheive." Sort of like a wealthy
person saying money doesn't mean anything! ;-)
Joyce
Kate Green
I am tired from fighting with my children all day
from both you and the kids. It's very cyclical and amazing how it crops up
even when you think you are settled and used to a place. It can make
everyone really cranky.
When it hits us we try and do something from "home" and talking about what
we miss. Then we talk about all the things we are now enjoying and what we
DON'T miss about home. It helps us just to acknowledge our feelings.
Just an idea...
Kate
> about everything. This morning they are refusing to eat because theYou know I was thinking that perhaps some of this could be culture shock
> bread is american.
> ----------
>
from both you and the kids. It's very cyclical and amazing how it crops up
even when you think you are settled and used to a place. It can make
everyone really cranky.
When it hits us we try and do something from "home" and talking about what
we miss. Then we talk about all the things we are now enjoying and what we
DON'T miss about home. It helps us just to acknowledge our feelings.
Just an idea...
Kate
moonmeghan
<<<<--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., "Shyrley" <shyrley.williams@v...>
wrote:
sometimes wish I could just send them to school. This week we
got our CAT tests to do, to fulfill Virginia requirtements and the
children don't want to do them. My husband seems to think that
they should get 90%+ in order to prove that 'unschooling' works
(he's amathematician, you'd think he would know that average is
50% but he's always scored top marks in every test or exam he
looked at and he was top of his year for the whole country in his
maths degree). I tried pointing out to him that if they were in
school, years of boredom would have resulted in not only low
marks but disaffectation with learning itself but because he
enjoyed school he doesn't believe me. accused me of making
up psychobabble. He cited all the homeschoolers we know
who's kids can't read by 8 or so, said I was ruining my children's
life through sticking to a philosophy that was 'unproven' (he's a
scientist, can you tell?)
Then he cited all the other homeschoolers who score in national
tests, who are building rockets by the time they are 6, who spend
ages reading books, who are maths geniuses (are these the
same ones who can't read?), who spend all day excited by
microscopes etc etc.
When my daughter was in school (from age 4 to 8) she was at
least 6 years head of her peers in maths. Now that she is 10 and
has been homeschooled for 2 years, she is not. She's maybe 2
years ahead in some areas and average in others. He ranted on
about that too.
I feel fed up with the lack of support. I feel guilty that everyone
else is buying curricula and spending all day conducting science
experiements. I am tired from fighting with my children all day
about everything.>>>>
I'm sorry you're having a hard time Shyrley. It sounds like you're
under a lot of stress right now. I'm sorry that you're husband is
being so unsupportive of you. I don't mean to offend you, but it
sounds to me as if he doesn't have faith in you, to do what is
right for your kids. Doesn't he believe that you've researched
unschooling and have faith in what you're doing? What does he
consider to be important for his children to be successful, and
why does he measure their success against his (as in they have
to get top marks)? Is a love of life and learning successful? Or is
it just how much money they earn, or how much notoriety they
have in their field? What if one of them chooses to be a
housecleaner or a handyperson? Is that going to be totally
unacceptable to him and, if so, why? Has he done any reading
or research on unschooling himself? If he hasn't, then I would
point him in the direction of books and websites and tell him to
start reading before he criticizes any more. If he is undermining
you and doesn't seem to trust you then your kids are probably
picking up on it and feeling unsettled and insecure, which in turn
leads to more strife between you and your kids.
There are millions of people in this world who hated or had a
hard time in school. That's not "psychobabble". I'm sure there
are books and websites where this could be researched and
documented as well.
<<<< This morning they are refusing to eat because the bread is
american.>>>>
This may be because you've all seemed to have a hard time
assimilating into the area you're in, and so have negative
images of the USA. Also you've all been homesick. When you
do some travelling (and/or when you move), you may find that
your impressions and/or feelings about the USA change. In the
meantime you could make scones or bread. It'll be English
because YOU made it <g>.
<<<<They've been de-schooling for 2 years. Why are they not
interested in anything? How can I prove to the state that learning
is taking place if they wont do the tests?
Sorry for the rant.
Shyrley the desperate
"Common sense is what tells you that the world is flat">>>>
I bet they're interested in a lot of stuff. It may just be at this point
in your life it's hard to see what. Do you mean specifically
academic stuff? If so, open your mind to other things and look
for the worth in ALL activities. You'll be surprised at how much
'academic' stuff is done in the everyday doings and interests in
life.
You may be exempt from the tests if you're a UK citizen and not
an American one. Check with the British Consulate on that one.
Does it matter if you 'help' with the test a bit or if they don't score
off the charts? Use any and all loopholes.
Last but not least: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Shyrley}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Meghan
wrote:
>I'm finding homeschooling, let along unschooling difficult and
> I've just spent 20 mins shouting at my kids and I feel terrible.
sometimes wish I could just send them to school. This week we
got our CAT tests to do, to fulfill Virginia requirtements and the
children don't want to do them. My husband seems to think that
they should get 90%+ in order to prove that 'unschooling' works
(he's amathematician, you'd think he would know that average is
50% but he's always scored top marks in every test or exam he
looked at and he was top of his year for the whole country in his
maths degree). I tried pointing out to him that if they were in
school, years of boredom would have resulted in not only low
marks but disaffectation with learning itself but because he
enjoyed school he doesn't believe me. accused me of making
up psychobabble. He cited all the homeschoolers we know
who's kids can't read by 8 or so, said I was ruining my children's
life through sticking to a philosophy that was 'unproven' (he's a
scientist, can you tell?)
Then he cited all the other homeschoolers who score in national
tests, who are building rockets by the time they are 6, who spend
ages reading books, who are maths geniuses (are these the
same ones who can't read?), who spend all day excited by
microscopes etc etc.
When my daughter was in school (from age 4 to 8) she was at
least 6 years head of her peers in maths. Now that she is 10 and
has been homeschooled for 2 years, she is not. She's maybe 2
years ahead in some areas and average in others. He ranted on
about that too.
I feel fed up with the lack of support. I feel guilty that everyone
else is buying curricula and spending all day conducting science
experiements. I am tired from fighting with my children all day
about everything.>>>>
I'm sorry you're having a hard time Shyrley. It sounds like you're
under a lot of stress right now. I'm sorry that you're husband is
being so unsupportive of you. I don't mean to offend you, but it
sounds to me as if he doesn't have faith in you, to do what is
right for your kids. Doesn't he believe that you've researched
unschooling and have faith in what you're doing? What does he
consider to be important for his children to be successful, and
why does he measure their success against his (as in they have
to get top marks)? Is a love of life and learning successful? Or is
it just how much money they earn, or how much notoriety they
have in their field? What if one of them chooses to be a
housecleaner or a handyperson? Is that going to be totally
unacceptable to him and, if so, why? Has he done any reading
or research on unschooling himself? If he hasn't, then I would
point him in the direction of books and websites and tell him to
start reading before he criticizes any more. If he is undermining
you and doesn't seem to trust you then your kids are probably
picking up on it and feeling unsettled and insecure, which in turn
leads to more strife between you and your kids.
There are millions of people in this world who hated or had a
hard time in school. That's not "psychobabble". I'm sure there
are books and websites where this could be researched and
documented as well.
<<<< This morning they are refusing to eat because the bread is
american.>>>>
This may be because you've all seemed to have a hard time
assimilating into the area you're in, and so have negative
images of the USA. Also you've all been homesick. When you
do some travelling (and/or when you move), you may find that
your impressions and/or feelings about the USA change. In the
meantime you could make scones or bread. It'll be English
because YOU made it <g>.
<<<<They've been de-schooling for 2 years. Why are they not
interested in anything? How can I prove to the state that learning
is taking place if they wont do the tests?
Sorry for the rant.
Shyrley the desperate
"Common sense is what tells you that the world is flat">>>>
I bet they're interested in a lot of stuff. It may just be at this point
in your life it's hard to see what. Do you mean specifically
academic stuff? If so, open your mind to other things and look
for the worth in ALL activities. You'll be surprised at how much
'academic' stuff is done in the everyday doings and interests in
life.
You may be exempt from the tests if you're a UK citizen and not
an American one. Check with the British Consulate on that one.
Does it matter if you 'help' with the test a bit or if they don't score
off the charts? Use any and all loopholes.
Last but not least: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Shyrley}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Meghan
Elizabeth Hill
moonmeghan wrote:
Nobel Prize winners who hated school and thought it was terrible and
harmful. I remember quotes from Einstein, Churchill and G. B. Shaw in
particular.
Doesn't someone here use an Einstein anti-school quote as a sig line?
Betsy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Karl Bunday's "School is Dead, Learn in Freedom" website has quotes from
> There are millions of people in this world who hated or had a
> hard time in school. That's not "psychobabble". I'm sure there
> are books and websites where this could be researched and
> documented as well.
Nobel Prize winners who hated school and thought it was terrible and
harmful. I remember quotes from Einstein, Churchill and G. B. Shaw in
particular.
Doesn't someone here use an Einstein anti-school quote as a sig line?
Betsy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Doesn't someone here use an Einstein anti-school quote as a sig line?
Betsy
I DO!
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
Betsy
I DO!
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein