Siblings calling each other bad names
karin
Hello,
I have two boys, 8 and a half and 4 and a half years old, we are unschooling. I limit my time on-line so I don't check into this group more than once a month or so, but whenever I do it always inspire me in my parenting. Maybe this is a topic that has been discussed here at lenght before, I tried to search for it but couldn't really find anything. Please redirect me towards old threads if there are any.
I am Swedish and my husband is from India, and we divide our time between this two countries. My oldest son, Hakim, wanted to attend some classes in school last year and did so for about 9 months in Sweden. It was gymnastic, dance/music, arts and craft and some science/play classes. I was not so eager about this, but I did let him go and watched my son learn some new things from being with other children. He got some good friends, but his way of speaking to his brother changed in a way that I am not happy about. He lost interest in going to the classes after a while and preferred staying at home again. But he kept playing with his friends, his brother plays with them, too. And he keeps on calling his brother names like idiot, stupid, dumb ass, etc. Now it has become kind of habit, and he does it even when he is not very angry with him. I have tried to approach this by asking him why he feels the need to speak to his brother like this and he says "otherwise he won't listen". I really dislike it and feel a need to protect my youngest son, but I seem to be unable to handle it with love and respect for both boys. I think my confusion aroung this subject goes back to my own childhood. Is there anybody who has any good ideas on how to approach this, or why it may be that he now feels the need to call his brother hurtful names, please let me know.
I have two boys, 8 and a half and 4 and a half years old, we are unschooling. I limit my time on-line so I don't check into this group more than once a month or so, but whenever I do it always inspire me in my parenting. Maybe this is a topic that has been discussed here at lenght before, I tried to search for it but couldn't really find anything. Please redirect me towards old threads if there are any.
I am Swedish and my husband is from India, and we divide our time between this two countries. My oldest son, Hakim, wanted to attend some classes in school last year and did so for about 9 months in Sweden. It was gymnastic, dance/music, arts and craft and some science/play classes. I was not so eager about this, but I did let him go and watched my son learn some new things from being with other children. He got some good friends, but his way of speaking to his brother changed in a way that I am not happy about. He lost interest in going to the classes after a while and preferred staying at home again. But he kept playing with his friends, his brother plays with them, too. And he keeps on calling his brother names like idiot, stupid, dumb ass, etc. Now it has become kind of habit, and he does it even when he is not very angry with him. I have tried to approach this by asking him why he feels the need to speak to his brother like this and he says "otherwise he won't listen". I really dislike it and feel a need to protect my youngest son, but I seem to be unable to handle it with love and respect for both boys. I think my confusion aroung this subject goes back to my own childhood. Is there anybody who has any good ideas on how to approach this, or why it may be that he now feels the need to call his brother hurtful names, please let me know.
Sandra Dodd
-=-He got some good friends, but his way of speaking to his brother changed in a way that I am not happy about. -=-
What I did about school kids visiting was to say "I know kids at school act that way, but you can't bring it to my house."
And when an unschooled kid goes to school, I think it's entirely reasonable for the mom to say (preferably in advance, or as soon as a problem might arise), "If school is going to make you mean, you shouldn't go," and "I can't allow you to bring meanness from school into the house."
I think you've waited too long.
Why should you attempt to be equally supportive of an respectful of a child who is being bullied AND the bully? That makes you the bully's accomplice.
-=- And he keeps on calling his brother names like idiot, stupid, dumb ass, etc. Now it has become kind of habit, and he does it even when he is not very angry with him. I have tried to approach this by asking him why he feels the need to speak to his brother like this and he says "otherwise he won't listen". I really dislike it and feel a need to protect my youngest son, but I seem to be unable to handle it with love and respect for both boys.--=-
Why ask him why he "feels the need"? It doesn't matter. Tell him to stop it, and stop it now. You are responsible for maintaining peace in your home. You can't give that responsibility to little boys who don't know what it means, and let them compromise the safety and positive feelings your younger child deserves to have in his own home.
You might tell your oldest that when he's grown and has his own place, he can call his brother dumbass THERE (IF the brother is willing to visit him) but he may NOT do it at your house.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What I did about school kids visiting was to say "I know kids at school act that way, but you can't bring it to my house."
And when an unschooled kid goes to school, I think it's entirely reasonable for the mom to say (preferably in advance, or as soon as a problem might arise), "If school is going to make you mean, you shouldn't go," and "I can't allow you to bring meanness from school into the house."
I think you've waited too long.
Why should you attempt to be equally supportive of an respectful of a child who is being bullied AND the bully? That makes you the bully's accomplice.
-=- And he keeps on calling his brother names like idiot, stupid, dumb ass, etc. Now it has become kind of habit, and he does it even when he is not very angry with him. I have tried to approach this by asking him why he feels the need to speak to his brother like this and he says "otherwise he won't listen". I really dislike it and feel a need to protect my youngest son, but I seem to be unable to handle it with love and respect for both boys.--=-
Why ask him why he "feels the need"? It doesn't matter. Tell him to stop it, and stop it now. You are responsible for maintaining peace in your home. You can't give that responsibility to little boys who don't know what it means, and let them compromise the safety and positive feelings your younger child deserves to have in his own home.
You might tell your oldest that when he's grown and has his own place, he can call his brother dumbass THERE (IF the brother is willing to visit him) but he may NOT do it at your house.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Becky Geer
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Siblings calling each other bad names
"And when an unschooled kid goes to school, I think it's entirely reasonable for the mom to say (preferably in advance, or as soon as a problem might arise), "If school is going to make you mean, you shouldn't go," and "I can't allow you to bring meanness from school into the house.""
How is this accomplished? How can you "not allow"? Will there be consequences if he does? This is the BIGGEST part of radical unschooling (parenting) I am having trouble with. Some posts make it sound like a child can do whatever makes him happy. Other posts speak of not punishing. Other posts talk about limiting kids from jumping on other peoples furniture. I am not able to differentiate between no punishment, no consequenses,no limits and being able to "enforce kindness".
"...It doesn't matter. Tell him to stop it, and stop it now. "
What if he doesn't want to stop? What if he stands there and tells you "No"
"You might tell your oldest that when he's grown and has his own place, he can call his brother dumbass THERE (IF the brother is willing to visit him) but he may NOT do it at your house."
Again, please advise on how "May not" is enforced. Please provide the links to the articles regarding this.
Becky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Siblings calling each other bad names
"And when an unschooled kid goes to school, I think it's entirely reasonable for the mom to say (preferably in advance, or as soon as a problem might arise), "If school is going to make you mean, you shouldn't go," and "I can't allow you to bring meanness from school into the house.""
How is this accomplished? How can you "not allow"? Will there be consequences if he does? This is the BIGGEST part of radical unschooling (parenting) I am having trouble with. Some posts make it sound like a child can do whatever makes him happy. Other posts speak of not punishing. Other posts talk about limiting kids from jumping on other peoples furniture. I am not able to differentiate between no punishment, no consequenses,no limits and being able to "enforce kindness".
"...It doesn't matter. Tell him to stop it, and stop it now. "
What if he doesn't want to stop? What if he stands there and tells you "No"
"You might tell your oldest that when he's grown and has his own place, he can call his brother dumbass THERE (IF the brother is willing to visit him) but he may NOT do it at your house."
Again, please advise on how "May not" is enforced. Please provide the links to the articles regarding this.
Becky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robert and Colleen
****How is this accomplished? How can you "not allow"? Will there be consequences if he does? This is the BIGGEST part of radical unschooling (parenting) I am having trouble with. Some posts make it sound like a child can do whatever makes him happy. Other posts speak of not punishing. Other posts talk about limiting kids from jumping on other peoples furniture. I am not able to differentiate between no punishment, no consequenses,no limits and being able to "enforce kindness".****
If a person comes from a point of punishment-based/consequence-based thinking, it can be hard to imagine that kids will stop when they are asked to stop – or that they will be kind when you remind them to be kind – or that they will not hit when you say “don’t hit.” People tend to have a habit of saying things like “don’t hit your sister or I’ll send you to your room” or “if you come in late you’ll be grounded” or “if you don’t lower your voice I’ll take away your computer.”
But what if they left the punishment/consequence threat out? What if the parent knew their child, planned for success to the extent they could by setting up an environment and circumstances and activities where their child could most likely succeed, and then dealt with things that happened anyway as those things came along? What if a mom saw her child about to climb onto Grandma’s couch and said simply “feet on the ground!” or “no climbing here” and then offered something else to do or see or play with or talk about? What if when that child climbed up anyway, Mom was right there, picked the child up, swung him gently through the air, and distracted him with something to see on the other side of the room? What if Mom knew her child really loved climbing and invited Grandma to meet them at the park instead of in Grandma’s knickknack-filled living room? What if 1,000 other things happened besides the things that sound like “if you jump on Grandma’s couch today you’re going to bed an hour early tonight!!”
Lots of (mainstream parenting) people spend lots of time saying “don’t hit your sister or I will send you to your room” – and then their child hits his sister – and then they send him to his room kicking and screaming – and then the next day what does he do? He hits his sister again. Punishment rarely stops the hitting long term.
And the punishment/consequence threats really truly aren’t needed. I can say to my son “please lower your voice” and I don’t need to follow that up with an “or else” – it’s simply an Is. A request. Sometimes a requirement (if we’re somewhere where he Needs to be quiet to be respectful of others or rules of a particular setting, etc.). If it’s a requirement, and he doesn’t lower his voice, I can say “we need to leave” – not to punish him, but to help him be somewhere where he’s not bothering others. When he was little if he threw a toy at me and that toy wasn’t a ball or something good for throwing :-) I’d simply ask him if he’d like to play catch, or I’d distract him, or I’d make sure there were lots of soft toys around for throwing that didn’t hurt people or break things, etc. What I didn’t do was holler “do not throw toys or else!!!” and then stick him in Time Out or slap his hand or do all those other things that some people do to try to Make their kids not throw. That kind of parenting isn’t relationship-building, and it wouldn’t have done much to curb the throwing anyway. Punishment doesn’t work so well, and yet people seem to like to do it anyway. An interesting thing to think about – after all, if punishing worked, wouldn’t we have a world full of Previously Punished And Now Perfectly Behaved People?? :-)
In the end, there are no magic tricks that will make all unschooled kids behave Exactly like their parents want – just like there are no magic tricks that make all not-unschooled kids behave like their parents want. But with unschooling, there is partnering and supporting and figuring out what works for each individual child and family to keep things as peaceful and well-functioning as possible. It’s not that non-unschooling families can’t partner and support too – it’s more that in unschooling families, doing so is usually a particular focus – with parents making specific effort made to help their kids, approach them with kindness, and figure out how to help them meet their needs (to express anger, or move their bodies physically, or master a new skill, or enjoy themselves, or get something good to eat, etc., etc.) without anyone else getting hurt (from hitting, or throwing, or loud voices ruining the show they want to see, or muddy feet on their couch, or special food they were saving being eaten etc etc) in the process.
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If a person comes from a point of punishment-based/consequence-based thinking, it can be hard to imagine that kids will stop when they are asked to stop – or that they will be kind when you remind them to be kind – or that they will not hit when you say “don’t hit.” People tend to have a habit of saying things like “don’t hit your sister or I’ll send you to your room” or “if you come in late you’ll be grounded” or “if you don’t lower your voice I’ll take away your computer.”
But what if they left the punishment/consequence threat out? What if the parent knew their child, planned for success to the extent they could by setting up an environment and circumstances and activities where their child could most likely succeed, and then dealt with things that happened anyway as those things came along? What if a mom saw her child about to climb onto Grandma’s couch and said simply “feet on the ground!” or “no climbing here” and then offered something else to do or see or play with or talk about? What if when that child climbed up anyway, Mom was right there, picked the child up, swung him gently through the air, and distracted him with something to see on the other side of the room? What if Mom knew her child really loved climbing and invited Grandma to meet them at the park instead of in Grandma’s knickknack-filled living room? What if 1,000 other things happened besides the things that sound like “if you jump on Grandma’s couch today you’re going to bed an hour early tonight!!”
Lots of (mainstream parenting) people spend lots of time saying “don’t hit your sister or I will send you to your room” – and then their child hits his sister – and then they send him to his room kicking and screaming – and then the next day what does he do? He hits his sister again. Punishment rarely stops the hitting long term.
And the punishment/consequence threats really truly aren’t needed. I can say to my son “please lower your voice” and I don’t need to follow that up with an “or else” – it’s simply an Is. A request. Sometimes a requirement (if we’re somewhere where he Needs to be quiet to be respectful of others or rules of a particular setting, etc.). If it’s a requirement, and he doesn’t lower his voice, I can say “we need to leave” – not to punish him, but to help him be somewhere where he’s not bothering others. When he was little if he threw a toy at me and that toy wasn’t a ball or something good for throwing :-) I’d simply ask him if he’d like to play catch, or I’d distract him, or I’d make sure there were lots of soft toys around for throwing that didn’t hurt people or break things, etc. What I didn’t do was holler “do not throw toys or else!!!” and then stick him in Time Out or slap his hand or do all those other things that some people do to try to Make their kids not throw. That kind of parenting isn’t relationship-building, and it wouldn’t have done much to curb the throwing anyway. Punishment doesn’t work so well, and yet people seem to like to do it anyway. An interesting thing to think about – after all, if punishing worked, wouldn’t we have a world full of Previously Punished And Now Perfectly Behaved People?? :-)
In the end, there are no magic tricks that will make all unschooled kids behave Exactly like their parents want – just like there are no magic tricks that make all not-unschooled kids behave like their parents want. But with unschooling, there is partnering and supporting and figuring out what works for each individual child and family to keep things as peaceful and well-functioning as possible. It’s not that non-unschooling families can’t partner and support too – it’s more that in unschooling families, doing so is usually a particular focus – with parents making specific effort made to help their kids, approach them with kindness, and figure out how to help them meet their needs (to express anger, or move their bodies physically, or master a new skill, or enjoy themselves, or get something good to eat, etc., etc.) without anyone else getting hurt (from hitting, or throwing, or loud voices ruining the show they want to see, or muddy feet on their couch, or special food they were saving being eaten etc etc) in the process.
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
You stay in the room. You don't let it happen without it stopping the other things. Usually things don't go that far. Simon and Linnaea, for example, don't always get on. When they are more sensitive to each other my presence is a balm. I can change the mood of the room so that they aren't mean to each other. If they are mean I can easily move the meanness from each other and usually dissipate it. If I can't dissipate it, often it is coming from something internal, like hunger. Which I can totally respond to.
What you've written, the questions you've asked read as someone who sees their child as merely defiant. They are being obstinate simply to be obstinate. Neither Simon nor Linnaea truly wish the other one harm, even if there are moments when they harm each other. Neither Simon nor Linnaea are unwilling to see if I have point, if what I am suggesting has value. They usually are willing to explore my ideas, not because I'm their mother nearly so much as because I've not used my position authority for ill. They don't see me as doing to them so much as helping them. It's like with food. Because I've never made them eat anything that they wouldn't like and because I have suggested things that they do like they willing to try something new if I offer it as something they might enjoy. They know that I don't have an agenda beyond their experiencing something pleasurable and tasty.
In order for you to be able to tell you child you won't accept meanness, that you won't accept name calling or cruelty they have to recognise that you are on their side. It isn't quite respect, or it isn't the kind of respect that I think of equating with obedience. You aren't asking, you aren't demanding, you are simply explaining that you aren't going to let one child hurt another child. You aren't going to allow that meanness to become apart of the fabric of your days. That isn't a threat. It isn't a promise of punishment. It is a statement of your own intent.
It's hard to explain. Let me start again. If David, my husband, were being a pain in the ass because work was stressing him out and he was coming home with ideas that other people had put into his head about how he should treat his family, I'd pull him aside and talk to him. I'd tell him he was hurting people in his family. I would tell him that it wasn't cool what he was doing. Or something. Because of our relationship, because of our years of building trust and family and a community of two he wouldn't see me as attacking him so much as me working to make his life and the people who make of a large part of his life happier and better. I wouldn't be drawing a line in the sand and daring him to cross it, I would be reaching out to try and help him feel better and more connected with us.
Maybe, if you don't have that relationship with your child, or if your child struggles to see beyond the immediate moment and the feeling within that moment, it would be difficult for them not to see it as a line drawn in the sand. If that were the case, maybe other approaches would be better. Or simultaneous approaches would be better. So one child is bullying another child. Be present. Be in the room. Not in an arms crossed waiting for the inevitable trouble to erupt, but in an engaged and playful way. Make it fun to be happy with each other. Make it not fun to be mean or bullying. Be prepared to take the bully or the bullied child away to do something else when that was needed. Make sure that there is food and drink and comfortable places to relax and interesting things to do. Diminish the unpleasantness by making your home a joyful place to be. Go out and run around more so that energy is used up in moving instead of in growing frustrated enough to
lash out. Make it easy to be kind and they will be less likely to be mean. You see your family as your team and you work to make the team work well together. Not by bullying or by words, but by actions and gifts and engagements and kindnesses.
Schuyler
What you've written, the questions you've asked read as someone who sees their child as merely defiant. They are being obstinate simply to be obstinate. Neither Simon nor Linnaea truly wish the other one harm, even if there are moments when they harm each other. Neither Simon nor Linnaea are unwilling to see if I have point, if what I am suggesting has value. They usually are willing to explore my ideas, not because I'm their mother nearly so much as because I've not used my position authority for ill. They don't see me as doing to them so much as helping them. It's like with food. Because I've never made them eat anything that they wouldn't like and because I have suggested things that they do like they willing to try something new if I offer it as something they might enjoy. They know that I don't have an agenda beyond their experiencing something pleasurable and tasty.
In order for you to be able to tell you child you won't accept meanness, that you won't accept name calling or cruelty they have to recognise that you are on their side. It isn't quite respect, or it isn't the kind of respect that I think of equating with obedience. You aren't asking, you aren't demanding, you are simply explaining that you aren't going to let one child hurt another child. You aren't going to allow that meanness to become apart of the fabric of your days. That isn't a threat. It isn't a promise of punishment. It is a statement of your own intent.
It's hard to explain. Let me start again. If David, my husband, were being a pain in the ass because work was stressing him out and he was coming home with ideas that other people had put into his head about how he should treat his family, I'd pull him aside and talk to him. I'd tell him he was hurting people in his family. I would tell him that it wasn't cool what he was doing. Or something. Because of our relationship, because of our years of building trust and family and a community of two he wouldn't see me as attacking him so much as me working to make his life and the people who make of a large part of his life happier and better. I wouldn't be drawing a line in the sand and daring him to cross it, I would be reaching out to try and help him feel better and more connected with us.
Maybe, if you don't have that relationship with your child, or if your child struggles to see beyond the immediate moment and the feeling within that moment, it would be difficult for them not to see it as a line drawn in the sand. If that were the case, maybe other approaches would be better. Or simultaneous approaches would be better. So one child is bullying another child. Be present. Be in the room. Not in an arms crossed waiting for the inevitable trouble to erupt, but in an engaged and playful way. Make it fun to be happy with each other. Make it not fun to be mean or bullying. Be prepared to take the bully or the bullied child away to do something else when that was needed. Make sure that there is food and drink and comfortable places to relax and interesting things to do. Diminish the unpleasantness by making your home a joyful place to be. Go out and run around more so that energy is used up in moving instead of in growing frustrated enough to
lash out. Make it easy to be kind and they will be less likely to be mean. You see your family as your team and you work to make the team work well together. Not by bullying or by words, but by actions and gifts and engagements and kindnesses.
Schuyler
----- Original Message -----
From: Becky Geer <beckytgtl@...>
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Siblings calling each other bad names
"And when an unschooled kid goes to school, I think it's entirely reasonable for the mom to say (preferably in advance, or as soon as a problem might arise), "If school is going to make you mean, you shouldn't go," and "I can't allow you to bring meanness from school into the house.""
How is this accomplished? How can you "not allow"? Will there be consequences if he does? This is the BIGGEST part of radical unschooling (parenting) I am having trouble with. Some posts make it sound like a child can do whatever makes him happy. Other posts speak of not punishing. Other posts talk about limiting kids from jumping on other peoples furniture. I am not able to differentiate between no punishment, no consequenses,no limits and being able to "enforce kindness".
"...It doesn't matter. Tell him to stop it, and stop it now. "
What if he doesn't want to stop? What if he stands there and tells you "No"
"You might tell your oldest that when he's grown and has his own place, he can call his brother dumbass THERE (IF the brother is willing to visit him) but he may NOT do it at your house."
Again, please advise on how "May not" is enforced. Please provide the links to the articles regarding this.
Becky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-How is this accomplished? How can you "not allow"? Will there be consequences if he does? -=-
By "consequences" I assume you mean punishment. The consequences now are that his brother is feeling worse about himself, you're feeling worse about your oldest, and you don't know what to do. Those are real world consequences.
If he says "NO" when you ask him to stop doing something, that means the relationship between you isn't good and solid. Did you, for a while, have punishments? When a family has "trained" kids with rewards and punishments, sometimes when they let that go, the kids seem to go wild, and are unmanageable. When a family starts early with being partners, and working things through reasonably, with reasons, and options, it seems to me (from families I've known who started early) that they listen to each other.
Nothing any of us write or say can "make" a family get along and communicate well.
If you say "It's not okay to say dumbass," be prepared to say why it's not okay. It's hurtful, and hurts can last a lifetime, and you're the mom and you need to defend each child's peace in his own home. Being called names in your own home isn't a good way to be. It harms the younger child, and it harms the older child to be that kind of person. He won't be able to take those things back.
What he decides to do in his own home, when he's grown, can be up to him. What he does when he's still at your house needs to be agreed on by his parents.
-=-"You might tell your oldest that when he's grown and has his own place, he can call his brother dumbass THERE (IF the brother is willing to visit him) but he may NOT do it at your house."
Again, please advise on how "May not" is enforced. Please provide the links to the articles regarding this.-=-
There might not be links to article regarding that.
If your son isn't listening to you, an article won't save you.
The principles of unschooling and mindful parenting might help you.
You seem to be saying that unless I can tell you how to "enforce" something, that your older son will continue to say "NO" to you and "dumbass" to his brother.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
By "consequences" I assume you mean punishment. The consequences now are that his brother is feeling worse about himself, you're feeling worse about your oldest, and you don't know what to do. Those are real world consequences.
If he says "NO" when you ask him to stop doing something, that means the relationship between you isn't good and solid. Did you, for a while, have punishments? When a family has "trained" kids with rewards and punishments, sometimes when they let that go, the kids seem to go wild, and are unmanageable. When a family starts early with being partners, and working things through reasonably, with reasons, and options, it seems to me (from families I've known who started early) that they listen to each other.
Nothing any of us write or say can "make" a family get along and communicate well.
If you say "It's not okay to say dumbass," be prepared to say why it's not okay. It's hurtful, and hurts can last a lifetime, and you're the mom and you need to defend each child's peace in his own home. Being called names in your own home isn't a good way to be. It harms the younger child, and it harms the older child to be that kind of person. He won't be able to take those things back.
What he decides to do in his own home, when he's grown, can be up to him. What he does when he's still at your house needs to be agreed on by his parents.
-=-"You might tell your oldest that when he's grown and has his own place, he can call his brother dumbass THERE (IF the brother is willing to visit him) but he may NOT do it at your house."
Again, please advise on how "May not" is enforced. Please provide the links to the articles regarding this.-=-
There might not be links to article regarding that.
If your son isn't listening to you, an article won't save you.
The principles of unschooling and mindful parenting might help you.
You seem to be saying that unless I can tell you how to "enforce" something, that your older son will continue to say "NO" to you and "dumbass" to his brother.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Becky Geer wrote:
The consequences are real-life relationship consequences... but how that all plays out depends a lot on the people involved and especially whether or not there's been school and a need for deschooling.
For several years my stepson lived with his bio mom and went to public school, then he moved into our unschooling home. At first, he was really obnoxious toward my daughter - it was how he was used to treating younger kids at school and the younger brother by his bio mom. And he was used to being told "no, no stop, knock it off, stop it or there will be Consequences" etc. It helped to talk with him about his frustration with a younger child and offer him some other ways to handle that. It helped for me to be on the lookout for the younger sibling doing frustrating things (to Ray) and run interference - be the one to distract the little kid and give Ray a break. And it helped to point out that *I* didn't talk to him the way he was talking to Morgan - it was especially helpful with Ray because he said over and over that he much prefered the way he was treated at our house.
And over time, I was able to say "hey! knock it off!" and he'd stop - but at first, no, that wouldn't have been the least bit helpful, it was just more of the same.
Once kids are used to the idea that their interests and desires and values are going to be taken seriously by parents, then any consequences are real life consequences. If I say "hey, knock it off" in a firm voice to one of my kids - or my partner for that matter - that person is going to at least pause and say "I'm sorry, what's the problem?"
To use another example, lately my daughter has been creating her own "Warrior Cats" characters and making pictures of them. She downloaded some cat outlines and has been coloring the in different ways. On facebook, someone asked if the drawings were hers and she replied "yes, I downloaded the outlines and colored them" - not misrepresenting herself in any deliberate way, but not understanding exactly what was being asked. So I explained that they were asking if the Outlines were hers as well. It wasn't a big deal, she wasn't trying to lie or be sneaky, she just hadn't thought about the difference between "this is my picture" and "I colored this picture". I didn't have to go into a big thing about plagarism or internet piracy or intellectual property rights - she understands the basic ideas already from writing and sharing fan fiction and other kinds of art. There was no need to make a stink about "consequences" because she already understand the principles - not in a "you will be punished" way, but in a "this is how to be kind and thoughtful" sort of way.
---Meredith
>How can you "not allow"? Will there be consequences if he does?  This is the BIGGEST part of radical unschooling (parenting) I am having trouble with.**************
The consequences are real-life relationship consequences... but how that all plays out depends a lot on the people involved and especially whether or not there's been school and a need for deschooling.
For several years my stepson lived with his bio mom and went to public school, then he moved into our unschooling home. At first, he was really obnoxious toward my daughter - it was how he was used to treating younger kids at school and the younger brother by his bio mom. And he was used to being told "no, no stop, knock it off, stop it or there will be Consequences" etc. It helped to talk with him about his frustration with a younger child and offer him some other ways to handle that. It helped for me to be on the lookout for the younger sibling doing frustrating things (to Ray) and run interference - be the one to distract the little kid and give Ray a break. And it helped to point out that *I* didn't talk to him the way he was talking to Morgan - it was especially helpful with Ray because he said over and over that he much prefered the way he was treated at our house.
And over time, I was able to say "hey! knock it off!" and he'd stop - but at first, no, that wouldn't have been the least bit helpful, it was just more of the same.
>>Some posts make it sound like a child can do whatever makes him happy.  Other posts speak of not punishing.   Other posts talk about limiting kids from jumping on other peoples furniture.     I am not able to differentiate between no punishment, no consequenses,no limits and being able to "enforce kindness".************
Once kids are used to the idea that their interests and desires and values are going to be taken seriously by parents, then any consequences are real life consequences. If I say "hey, knock it off" in a firm voice to one of my kids - or my partner for that matter - that person is going to at least pause and say "I'm sorry, what's the problem?"
To use another example, lately my daughter has been creating her own "Warrior Cats" characters and making pictures of them. She downloaded some cat outlines and has been coloring the in different ways. On facebook, someone asked if the drawings were hers and she replied "yes, I downloaded the outlines and colored them" - not misrepresenting herself in any deliberate way, but not understanding exactly what was being asked. So I explained that they were asking if the Outlines were hers as well. It wasn't a big deal, she wasn't trying to lie or be sneaky, she just hadn't thought about the difference between "this is my picture" and "I colored this picture". I didn't have to go into a big thing about plagarism or internet piracy or intellectual property rights - she understands the basic ideas already from writing and sharing fan fiction and other kinds of art. There was no need to make a stink about "consequences" because she already understand the principles - not in a "you will be punished" way, but in a "this is how to be kind and thoughtful" sort of way.
>>limiting kids from jumping on other peoples furnitureThere have been times when we didn't go certain places or visit certain people because I knew my kids couldn't deal with the rules of that environment. Or I'd only go into certain places if I was sure I could stick to my kid like glue and help him or her make good choices. When Ray was first out of school this included things like "don't climb the display". He could do it if I was right there helping him, not if I was ten feet away yelling NO! Don't climb the display wasn't a rule, it was a choice I was helping him make in the moment. But it can't Be a real choice in the moment if a kid feels like a hundred rules are hemming him in at every turn - it can only be a choice between following a rule or not following it.
---Meredith
Mrs Jones
>>> I am not able to differentiate between no punishment, no consequenses,no limits and being able to "enforce kindness".<<<
A punishment is something you create, "no tv for a week" or "sit on the naughty chair for 15min" for instance. The intent behind it is to modify behavior.
A consequence occurs naturally, there are tons of those everyday....there are no intents behind them, they just follow an action in a cause and effect way.
No limits doesn't mean no limits at all ;-) It means no limits for the sake of limiting. Real-life limits are all around, all the time.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'enforce kindness' - but kindness usually generates kindness, so not scolding is helpful. Talking about what someone might have said or done instead of a mean thing is helpful. Role playing can be helpful. Humor is often helpful. Working on creating harmony (proactively) rather than responding to a particular behavior (reactively) is helpful too.
Maria
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karin
Thank you all for your input.
Just to clarify; I read John Holt before I even had kids, so the unschooling approach to parenting has been with me since the start. I don't use punishment or rewards in my relationship to my children. And reading my post again I can see that I was not clear about the fact that I do tell him to stop the name calling, and I tell him that I do not tolerate any kind of bullying, verbal or other. I have told him a hundred times, and he stops everytime, he get's it every time. He just does it again when he gets annoyed or just bored and want's to pick a fight with his brother. They play wonderfully for long periods of time, but it's bad enough that it happens twice a day or once a day or even once in a while, because it hurts his younger brother to have his older brother that he loves so much call him these things. They never hit eachother, for example, simply because they feel that it's hurtful and that it's not anything we do in our family. So how come the same knowledge doesn't apply to the name calling? There where other things that disrupted the harmony at home after Hakims school experience, for example he started to invent competition games, where he would compete against his brother (and win, due to the age difference). I used to offer something more interesting to do and after a while he stopped to suggest competitions. It's just the name calling that lingers. The only thing working is to provide a fun, interesting setting for the kids to play in, and minimize confrontations between the brothers (no surprises there). But people living together, kids or adults, are bound to disagree on things or just get on each others nerves occasionally. But calling each other hurtful names is just not an okay way of expressing that. I guess there are no quick fixes to this, I will just keep on be there and give my undivided attention and keep on tell him that it's not okay. And hope that they never chose to try out school again, at least not until they are much much older!
Just to clarify; I read John Holt before I even had kids, so the unschooling approach to parenting has been with me since the start. I don't use punishment or rewards in my relationship to my children. And reading my post again I can see that I was not clear about the fact that I do tell him to stop the name calling, and I tell him that I do not tolerate any kind of bullying, verbal or other. I have told him a hundred times, and he stops everytime, he get's it every time. He just does it again when he gets annoyed or just bored and want's to pick a fight with his brother. They play wonderfully for long periods of time, but it's bad enough that it happens twice a day or once a day or even once in a while, because it hurts his younger brother to have his older brother that he loves so much call him these things. They never hit eachother, for example, simply because they feel that it's hurtful and that it's not anything we do in our family. So how come the same knowledge doesn't apply to the name calling? There where other things that disrupted the harmony at home after Hakims school experience, for example he started to invent competition games, where he would compete against his brother (and win, due to the age difference). I used to offer something more interesting to do and after a while he stopped to suggest competitions. It's just the name calling that lingers. The only thing working is to provide a fun, interesting setting for the kids to play in, and minimize confrontations between the brothers (no surprises there). But people living together, kids or adults, are bound to disagree on things or just get on each others nerves occasionally. But calling each other hurtful names is just not an okay way of expressing that. I guess there are no quick fixes to this, I will just keep on be there and give my undivided attention and keep on tell him that it's not okay. And hope that they never chose to try out school again, at least not until they are much much older!
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 5, 2013, at 6:12 AM, karin wrote:
Help him. Don't stop with what he's doing wrong. Focus on what he's trying to do. Help him by going about it a different way. By focusing on what he's doing wrong, you're shifting the situation to your agenda, shoving his aside. Then wondering why he's not paying attention to you.
Human interactions are complex. Younger kids are often not cooperative. Kids need to see adults solving lots of problems before they really understand how the tools work.
If someone didn't post this page before, it has lots of useful information about siblings:
http://sandradodd.com/siblings
And, first and foremost, be more present. Redirect if they're getting antsy. Bring them food before they know they're hungry (which can be, for some kids, too late). It's up to you to do things to create a nest that feels calm and peaceful, not wait until things break down and then enforce peace.
Joyce
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> I do tell him to stop the name calling, ... I have told him a hundred times,He has a need. The name calling is a tool. You're saying, "Stop using that tool." But then what? He still has a need but doesn't have a tool that works as well as name calling.
> and he stops everytime, he get's it every time.
> He just does it again when he gets annoyed or just bored and want's to pick a
> fight with his brother
Help him. Don't stop with what he's doing wrong. Focus on what he's trying to do. Help him by going about it a different way. By focusing on what he's doing wrong, you're shifting the situation to your agenda, shoving his aside. Then wondering why he's not paying attention to you.
Human interactions are complex. Younger kids are often not cooperative. Kids need to see adults solving lots of problems before they really understand how the tools work.
If someone didn't post this page before, it has lots of useful information about siblings:
http://sandradodd.com/siblings
And, first and foremost, be more present. Redirect if they're getting antsy. Bring them food before they know they're hungry (which can be, for some kids, too late). It's up to you to do things to create a nest that feels calm and peaceful, not wait until things break down and then enforce peace.
Joyce
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karin
> He has a need. The name calling is a tool. You're saying, "Stop using that tool." But then what? He still has a need but doesn't have a tool that works as well as name calling.Thank you Joyce, that is what I feel, excactly. I am usually so intuitive about the kids needs, I feel that I get what they need most of the time without them having to ask me for it. I don't know why I can't seem to figure this one out when he needs my help to do so. I will try to give him more alonetime with me, while his younger brother is with my husband. He sometimes says that he misses doing things together, just me and him, how it was before his brother were born. I will see if that helps.
>
> Help him. Don't stop with what he's doing wrong. Focus on what he's trying to do. Help him by going about it a different way. By focusing on what he's doing wrong, you're shifting the situation to your agenda, shoving his aside. Then wondering why he's not paying attention to you.
>
Thankfully, Karin
Sandra Dodd
-=- I have told him a hundred times, and he stops everytime, he get's it every time.-=-
No, he doesn't get it.
He says what make you think he gets it.
If a hundred is an exaggeration, try not to exaggerate. :-)
Let's say it was 30 times. He didn't get it. He hushed to get you to hush.
-=- They play wonderfully for long periods of time, but it's bad enough that it happens twice a day or once a day or even once in a while, because it hurts his younger brother to have his older brother that he loves so much call him these things. They never hit eachother, for example, simply because they feel that it's hurtful and that it's not anything we do in our family. So how come the same knowledge doesn't apply to the name calling? -=-
#1, it's not "knowledge."
#2, have you said that words hurt more than hitting hurts? Probably all of us have a phrase or an insult stuck inside that's something someone said to us in childhood.
#3, it hurts his younger brother. But it also hurts the brother. He is a name-calling bully. HE and his own actions are making him a person who is not kind. He is disturbing the peace of everyone in the home.
Help him to think before he speaks. Maybe the next few times he uses one of those insults, say "Did you think before you said that?" Or "Why did you say he's stupid?" Engage him in an analysis of what happened and why. Don't let one go by without saying "Did you make a decision, and still decide to say that?"
Every time someone speaks without thinking first, he spoke thoughtlessly. Young kids probably don't want to be that philosophical; I'm not saying he wants to get that. But he's surely not getting whatever it is you've told him a hundred times, so try something different, from a different angle.
Sandra
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No, he doesn't get it.
He says what make you think he gets it.
If a hundred is an exaggeration, try not to exaggerate. :-)
Let's say it was 30 times. He didn't get it. He hushed to get you to hush.
-=- They play wonderfully for long periods of time, but it's bad enough that it happens twice a day or once a day or even once in a while, because it hurts his younger brother to have his older brother that he loves so much call him these things. They never hit eachother, for example, simply because they feel that it's hurtful and that it's not anything we do in our family. So how come the same knowledge doesn't apply to the name calling? -=-
#1, it's not "knowledge."
#2, have you said that words hurt more than hitting hurts? Probably all of us have a phrase or an insult stuck inside that's something someone said to us in childhood.
#3, it hurts his younger brother. But it also hurts the brother. He is a name-calling bully. HE and his own actions are making him a person who is not kind. He is disturbing the peace of everyone in the home.
Help him to think before he speaks. Maybe the next few times he uses one of those insults, say "Did you think before you said that?" Or "Why did you say he's stupid?" Engage him in an analysis of what happened and why. Don't let one go by without saying "Did you make a decision, and still decide to say that?"
Every time someone speaks without thinking first, he spoke thoughtlessly. Young kids probably don't want to be that philosophical; I'm not saying he wants to get that. But he's surely not getting whatever it is you've told him a hundred times, so try something different, from a different angle.
Sandra
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Robin Bentley
> He just does it again when he gets annoyed or just bored and want'sMy first thought is maybe it's his default reaction to not enough food
> to pick a fight with his brother. They play wonderfully for long
> periods of time, but it's bad enough that it happens twice a day or
> once a day or even once in a while, because it hurts his younger
> brother to have his older brother that he loves so much call him
> these things.
or not enough sleep. That's the time my daughter is the most cranky
(my husband and I, too!)
> But calling each other hurtful names is just not an okay way ofHow about thinking of alternatives to name-calling? If he doesn't have
> expressing that. I guess there are no quick fixes to this, I will
> just keep on be there and give my undivided attention and keep on
> tell him that it's not okay.
something to replace it with when you say "this is not okay" he has no
option to express his frustration.
So maybe say "instead of calling your brother names, come and talk to
me" or "here's a stress ball - squeeze that" or "go in the bathroom
and yell your head off". Maybe none of those will work for your son,
but you can probably find something that will appeal to him.
It's not helping him right now to only say "stop it" - he needs an
alternative to what he's doing.
Robin B.
Sandra Dodd
-=-He has a need. The name calling is a tool. You're saying, "Stop using that tool." But then what? He still has a need but doesn't have a tool that works as well as name calling.-=-
If the need is to play with his friend without his brother present, then find something much cooler for the brother to do, or persuade the kid to let the brother play.
When Marty was nine he had a friend from his hockey team, who invited him over the play. The boy had a younger brother. They lived with their grandmother in a nice, big house.
Marty went twice, and the third invitation was turned down. He couldn't figure out how to say no, so he asked me to call the grandmother and explain.
Marty is a younger brother. What was happening when Marty was there is the friend was being mean to his younger brother, and expecting Marty to participate or condone it by silence. When Marty ignored it and tried to engage the younger boy in play, then the friend was mean to Marty, trying to shame him for being nice to the younger brother. Marty wasn't having fun anymore at all, and was unwilling to be cruel to a younger boy.
I know school creates distance and separation between kids of different ages, and that it transfers home. Parents should know that too, and take aggressive steps to balance or prevent it, if they have a child who wants to try school. Trying school can be fine, but parents should say right up front that the negativity of school is not to be brought into their unschooling nest. "Can I have a pet wolverine?" The answer should be no. Anything that comes home all stinky and dangerous and wanting to bite is a bad idea. "Can I go to school?" Yes, if you can NOT bring the wolverine home.
Sandra
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If the need is to play with his friend without his brother present, then find something much cooler for the brother to do, or persuade the kid to let the brother play.
When Marty was nine he had a friend from his hockey team, who invited him over the play. The boy had a younger brother. They lived with their grandmother in a nice, big house.
Marty went twice, and the third invitation was turned down. He couldn't figure out how to say no, so he asked me to call the grandmother and explain.
Marty is a younger brother. What was happening when Marty was there is the friend was being mean to his younger brother, and expecting Marty to participate or condone it by silence. When Marty ignored it and tried to engage the younger boy in play, then the friend was mean to Marty, trying to shame him for being nice to the younger brother. Marty wasn't having fun anymore at all, and was unwilling to be cruel to a younger boy.
I know school creates distance and separation between kids of different ages, and that it transfers home. Parents should know that too, and take aggressive steps to balance or prevent it, if they have a child who wants to try school. Trying school can be fine, but parents should say right up front that the negativity of school is not to be brought into their unschooling nest. "Can I have a pet wolverine?" The answer should be no. Anything that comes home all stinky and dangerous and wanting to bite is a bad idea. "Can I go to school?" Yes, if you can NOT bring the wolverine home.
Sandra
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Mrs Jones
>>> It's up to you to do things to create a nest that feels calm and peaceful, not wait until things break down and then enforce peace.<<<This is such an important point. I read somewhere on the web, a mother talking about doing what is important rather than what is urgent. This is a real good concept to keep in mind. Especially with younger children, it often takes a lot of pro-active work to maintain that nest. My two middle children (7 and 5) currently need a lot of help in solving conflicts in a constructive manner. If I keep an ear on what's going on, I can catch a potential conflict and sometimes dissipate it before it becomes one. For instance if I hear them starting to talk to eachother in a tone of voice that I know signals frustration, I can pop in and cheerfully say "hey, what's that red thing on the screen" or "wow, the wind is really blowing today huh" or something, and that will often be enough for the atmosphere to change and have everyone interacting joyfully again. When I do that, I'm doing what is important. If I wait until the conflict is already in full swing, I'm doing
what is urgent.
Maria
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Sandra Dodd
-=-It's not helping him right now to only say "stop it" - he needs an
alternative to what he's doing.-=-
I don't want any parent reading here to think that a parent must rack her brain to find a solution acceptable to a troublesome kid who is insulting another kid, and that "stop it" is a bad move.
Yes of course there are tons of things that can be done differently and preventively, but if a child were hitting, cutting, sexually abusing, threatening a younger child I don't think the advice would be "It's not helping him right now to only say "stop it" - he needs an
alternative to what he's doing."
Sometimes a person needs to stop. Just stop. Right then, and without explanation.
A younger child should be able to depend on his parents to keep him safe on a normal day in his own home. Parents aren't magic, and there are times they aren't there. There are earthquakes and tsunamis, floods and fires. But I'm talking about Tuesday 2:00 p.m. when the world is still. Safety.
Sandra
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alternative to what he's doing.-=-
I don't want any parent reading here to think that a parent must rack her brain to find a solution acceptable to a troublesome kid who is insulting another kid, and that "stop it" is a bad move.
Yes of course there are tons of things that can be done differently and preventively, but if a child were hitting, cutting, sexually abusing, threatening a younger child I don't think the advice would be "It's not helping him right now to only say "stop it" - he needs an
alternative to what he's doing."
Sometimes a person needs to stop. Just stop. Right then, and without explanation.
A younger child should be able to depend on his parents to keep him safe on a normal day in his own home. Parents aren't magic, and there are times they aren't there. There are earthquakes and tsunamis, floods and fires. But I'm talking about Tuesday 2:00 p.m. when the world is still. Safety.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=- I read somewhere on the web, a mother talking about doing what is important rather than what is urgent. This is a real good concept to keep in mind. -=-
I hope what you wrote is not what you meant.
Parents must deal with what is urgent. It's not a "rather than" situation.
Perhaps you meant to say she said if people do what's important there will be less urgency?
As it's written, though, I don't think it's a good concept to keep in mind.
Sandra
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I hope what you wrote is not what you meant.
Parents must deal with what is urgent. It's not a "rather than" situation.
Perhaps you meant to say she said if people do what's important there will be less urgency?
As it's written, though, I don't think it's a good concept to keep in mind.
Sandra
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Mrs Jones
>>>Perhaps you meant to say she said if people do what's important there will be less urgency? <<<<That is exactly what I meant, and what I thought was clear from the rest of the post. I gave a concrete example of how that concept might translate in actual life.
Well, I really cannot seem to express myself in a manner that is understandable :)
I will take a break from expressing myself :)
Maria
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Sandra Dodd
-=-That is exactly what I meant, and what I thought was clear
from the rest of the post. I gave a concrete example of how
that concept might translate in actual life.-=-
The rest of the post wouldn't change the definite (and incorrect) statement made earlier, which you clearly marked as something people should pay special attention to.
The purpose of this discussion is much bigger than any little social chat. We've built an archive with (checking the current count...) 70184 messages in it. (This one will up the number.) That is right up there with the most important kind of writing there can be, because people are providing information that can, and will, change lives today, tomorrow, next year. Real parents can take what's written here and improve the lives of everyone in their family from what we have here, and so it's important to me that the writing be as clear and to the point as possible.
With that in mind, each person who writes should be a little more careful, and a little more aware, that you're not writing just to the hundreds of people reading this week (maybe thousands read; there are 3939 list members, but some aren't reading), but writing for people who will come in a month or a year and search the archives.
If there's anyone here who hasn't read, or hasn't read lately, the intro and guidelines, please do. On the home page of the group (if you read online) or at the bottom of each e-mail ("visit your group") you can get to this.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
Thanks!
Sandra
from the rest of the post. I gave a concrete example of how
that concept might translate in actual life.-=-
The rest of the post wouldn't change the definite (and incorrect) statement made earlier, which you clearly marked as something people should pay special attention to.
The purpose of this discussion is much bigger than any little social chat. We've built an archive with (checking the current count...) 70184 messages in it. (This one will up the number.) That is right up there with the most important kind of writing there can be, because people are providing information that can, and will, change lives today, tomorrow, next year. Real parents can take what's written here and improve the lives of everyone in their family from what we have here, and so it's important to me that the writing be as clear and to the point as possible.
With that in mind, each person who writes should be a little more careful, and a little more aware, that you're not writing just to the hundreds of people reading this week (maybe thousands read; there are 3939 list members, but some aren't reading), but writing for people who will come in a month or a year and search the archives.
If there's anyone here who hasn't read, or hasn't read lately, the intro and guidelines, please do. On the home page of the group (if you read online) or at the bottom of each e-mail ("visit your group") you can get to this.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
Thanks!
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 5, 2013, at 1:41 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
If "Stop it," did make the name calling disappear in a home where the kid didn't trust his mom cared about him, I'd suspect the kid had discovered how to be mean more sneakily so the mom didn't notice.
For "Stop it," to work, the relationships need to be there. The kid needs to trust that if he stops his mom will help him. The kid needs to care about his brother. (If he thinks his mom doesn't care about him, it's likely he won't care about his brother. Why should he care about his brother when he's hurting and his mom doesn't care?)
To get "Stop it" to work, I'd focus on rebuilding the trust and the relationship. But *first* I'd be more present, be more attentive to needs (bringing food, redirecting, calling one away to do something and relieve tension) to prevent as much as possible the situations that create the name calling while I worked on the relationship.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I don't want any parent reading here to think that a parent mustIf a kid doesn't trust that his Mom cares about his needs, "STOP IT!" won't have the effect it will in an unschooling home where the kids trust the Mom. "Stop it" will sound like, "I don't care about you and your needs. I only care that you do what I say." It may even sound like, "I don't care about your feelings. I care about your brother."
> rack her brain to find a solution acceptable to a troublesome kid
> who is insulting another kid, and that "stop it" is a bad move.
If "Stop it," did make the name calling disappear in a home where the kid didn't trust his mom cared about him, I'd suspect the kid had discovered how to be mean more sneakily so the mom didn't notice.
For "Stop it," to work, the relationships need to be there. The kid needs to trust that if he stops his mom will help him. The kid needs to care about his brother. (If he thinks his mom doesn't care about him, it's likely he won't care about his brother. Why should he care about his brother when he's hurting and his mom doesn't care?)
To get "Stop it" to work, I'd focus on rebuilding the trust and the relationship. But *first* I'd be more present, be more attentive to needs (bringing food, redirecting, calling one away to do something and relieve tension) to prevent as much as possible the situations that create the name calling while I worked on the relationship.
Joyce
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Lucy's web
On 5 Jan 2013, at 18:03, Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...> wrote:
My two daughters have 18 months between them. Since they were quite small I have had an agreement with each of them that when they feel frustration building they come to me and give me a signal that basically means: "Mummy, stop what you're doing right now because I really need you to help me with my frustration." The signal, and the thing they want to do has changed many times over the years. Currently my older daughter (now aged 11) wants me to sit with her and listen to her frustrations. She doesn't currently have a 'secret signal' but it used to be a special word.
My younger daughter (now aged 9) currently gives me a thumbs down signal, and wants me just to cuddle her without asking questions or offering words.
My side of the bargain is that I won't say any kind of: "just a minute while I finish up �" things, and also that I won't ask direct questions like: "what's wrong" unless I am invited to.
These little meetings/cuddles seem to enable my girls to calm down, recharge, and go back into whatever the situation was without feeling the need to take out their frustrations on anyone else. Sometimes they come at those moments when otherwise they feel they would say or do something hurtful to someone. Sometimes it's because they are beginning to feel hurt themselves and don't know how to deal with those feelings. Sometimes it's because they have just lost a race on the Gamecube and will otherwise want to run from the room in tears.
Lucy
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> So maybe say "instead of calling your brother names, come and talk toThe "come and talk to me" approach works well with us in those situations when I haven't - for whatever reasons - spotted the discord coming.
> me" or "here's a stress ball - squeeze that" or "go in the bathroom
> and yell your head off". Maybe none of those will work for your son,
> but you can probably find something that will appeal to him.
My two daughters have 18 months between them. Since they were quite small I have had an agreement with each of them that when they feel frustration building they come to me and give me a signal that basically means: "Mummy, stop what you're doing right now because I really need you to help me with my frustration." The signal, and the thing they want to do has changed many times over the years. Currently my older daughter (now aged 11) wants me to sit with her and listen to her frustrations. She doesn't currently have a 'secret signal' but it used to be a special word.
My younger daughter (now aged 9) currently gives me a thumbs down signal, and wants me just to cuddle her without asking questions or offering words.
My side of the bargain is that I won't say any kind of: "just a minute while I finish up �" things, and also that I won't ask direct questions like: "what's wrong" unless I am invited to.
These little meetings/cuddles seem to enable my girls to calm down, recharge, and go back into whatever the situation was without feeling the need to take out their frustrations on anyone else. Sometimes they come at those moments when otherwise they feel they would say or do something hurtful to someone. Sometimes it's because they are beginning to feel hurt themselves and don't know how to deal with those feelings. Sometimes it's because they have just lost a race on the Gamecube and will otherwise want to run from the room in tears.
Lucy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Hello
Then I heard a story about a boy throwing a stone in a bag at his sister's head and how his mother's reaction was: "Oh, that's my fault, I didn't give him enough food!". There's a lot of confusion and misunderstanding. We try to be better parents and we don't want to be like traditional parents, but in specific situations it tends to be more complicated.
Bettina
> -=-It's not helping him right now to only say "stop it" - he needs anYes, I agree with that. We had a time when my oldest would keep having aggressions towards his little brother and other children. I only always tried to address underlying needs, but didn't also try to really stop him. I was somehow hoping that the aggressions would just go away if I kept addressing his needs. That didn't really work. (I was also misleaded by thinking children should learn to solve conflicts by themselves and that children should be allowed to fight.)
> alternative to what he's doing.-=-
>
> I don't want any parent reading here to think that a parent must rack her brain to find a solution acceptable to a troublesome kid who is insulting another kid, and that "stop it" is a bad move.
Then I heard a story about a boy throwing a stone in a bag at his sister's head and how his mother's reaction was: "Oh, that's my fault, I didn't give him enough food!". There's a lot of confusion and misunderstanding. We try to be better parents and we don't want to be like traditional parents, but in specific situations it tends to be more complicated.
Bettina
karin
> The "come and talk to me" approach works well with us in those situations when I haven't - for whatever reasons - spotted the discord coming.Thank you Lucy, that is the best suggestion I have heard on the subject! Because that is exactly what it is, frustration building up inside of him.
>
> My two daughters have 18 months between them. Since they were quite small I have had an agreement with each of them that when they feel frustration building they come to me and give me a signal that basically means: "Mummy, stop what you're doing right now because I really need you to help me with my frustration." The signal, and the thing they want to do has changed many times over the years. Currently my older daughter (now aged 11) wants me to sit with her and listen to her frustrations. She doesn't currently have a 'secret signal' but it used to be a special word.
>
He is not a bully. He is just an 8-year old kid with lot's of things going on inside and around him, some of that stuff is frustrating to him. And by using bad language he knows he will get my attention that very second.
> My side of the bargain is that I won't say any kind of: "just a minute while I finish up " things, and also that I won't ask direct questions like: "what's wrong" unless I am invited to.That's just brilliant. That's what I will do this very minute. Close the computer and make a deal with my lovely kids, that whenever they feel frustrated, bored or annoyed they can come to me and show me instead of acting out on eachother.
>
That's a useful tool to deal with frustration if ever I saw one!
Thankfully,
Karin
alma
I think this idea stems from the time management tool - the urgent/important matrix. The idea is to draw a four square table and label the quadrants 1. urgent and important 2. urgent but not important 3. non-urgent but important and 4. non-urgent and not important. The idea is to assign each of your business tasks to one of these quadrants and allocate your time accordingly ie prioritise no.1, abandon no.4 and make sure you allocate enough time for no.3 over no.2, which is where most people fail. The point to take away from the exercise (in terms of business/time management) is that people have a tendency to spend more time doing things which are urgent but not important rather than things which are important but not urgent.
I have found this matrix popping into my head on many occasions eg when I find myself frittering away time or when I find myself telling a child to wait until I've loaded the dishwasher or I when I find my mind wandering away from watching a child do something they want me to watch or some such thing. It often helps me find my priorities, and juggle more effectively.
So yes, I think these can be helpful distinctions to bear in mind when used properly.
Alison
(with boys aged 10 and 7)
I have found this matrix popping into my head on many occasions eg when I find myself frittering away time or when I find myself telling a child to wait until I've loaded the dishwasher or I when I find my mind wandering away from watching a child do something they want me to watch or some such thing. It often helps me find my priorities, and juggle more effectively.
So yes, I think these can be helpful distinctions to bear in mind when used properly.
Alison
(with boys aged 10 and 7)
--- In [email protected], Mrs Jones wrote:
>
> >>>Perhaps you meant to say she said if people do what's important there will be less urgency? <<<<
>
>
> That is exactly what I meant, and what I thought was clear from the rest of the post. I gave a concrete example of how that concept might translate in actual life.
> Well, I really cannot seem to express myself in a manner that is understandable :)
>
> I will take a break from expressing myself :)
>
> Maria
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-If a kid doesn't trust that his Mom cares about his needs, "STOP IT!" won't have the effect it will in an unschooling home where the kids trust the Mom. "Stop it" will sound like, "I don't care about you and your needs. I only care that you do what I say." It may even sound like, "I don't care about your feelings. I care about your brother."-=-
Perhaps so. That's not at all the kind of relationships your site or mine are created to help create.
Even in a family in which there is not trust, and the mom doesn't much care about one child, and she DOES care more about the younger brother, as unfortunate as all that is, if the mother fails to defend that younger brother then she and the older one are partners in his torment. That's not what I've ever mean when I said "be your child's partner."
I think too often people look at an action, in a person, and think of who it's hurting. It's hurting everyone involved. It's not just the younger brother who is harmed. The mother's dismay can spread into her other thoughts and actions. The older child is wounding his own value, integrity and soul. A good partner should help prevent that erosion of wholeness and kindness.
With my kids, a time or two when they were moving toward thoughtless or reckless social behaviors, I would suggest that it's better for their future to be the kind of person someone would marry, hire, or befriend.
"How will they get a job?" Not with a piece of paper, but by being thoughtful, goodhearted, agreeable people.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Perhaps so. That's not at all the kind of relationships your site or mine are created to help create.
Even in a family in which there is not trust, and the mom doesn't much care about one child, and she DOES care more about the younger brother, as unfortunate as all that is, if the mother fails to defend that younger brother then she and the older one are partners in his torment. That's not what I've ever mean when I said "be your child's partner."
I think too often people look at an action, in a person, and think of who it's hurting. It's hurting everyone involved. It's not just the younger brother who is harmed. The mother's dismay can spread into her other thoughts and actions. The older child is wounding his own value, integrity and soul. A good partner should help prevent that erosion of wholeness and kindness.
With my kids, a time or two when they were moving toward thoughtless or reckless social behaviors, I would suggest that it's better for their future to be the kind of person someone would marry, hire, or befriend.
"How will they get a job?" Not with a piece of paper, but by being thoughtful, goodhearted, agreeable people.
Sandra
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Lucy's web
On 6 Jan 2013, at 15:34, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
She has told me - very clearly and definitely - that when she does or says something that hurts her younger sister, she feels it inside as hurt herself, too. And that's why she asked me for my help to stop her getting frustrated to the point that she wanted to lash out. Up until that conversation I had only really thought about the effect it was having on my younger child.
Lucy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I think too often people look at an action, in a person, and think of who it's hurting. It's hurting everyone involved. It's not just the younger brother who is harmed. The mother's dismay can spread into her other thoughts and actions. The older child is wounding his own value, integrity and soul. A good partner should help prevent that erosion of wholeness and kindness.My 11yo daughter is very good at talking about her innermost feelings and thoughts, putting them into words I can understand, and has been from a very young age. It takes my breath away at times.
She has told me - very clearly and definitely - that when she does or says something that hurts her younger sister, she feels it inside as hurt herself, too. And that's why she asked me for my help to stop her getting frustrated to the point that she wanted to lash out. Up until that conversation I had only really thought about the effect it was having on my younger child.
Lucy
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Meredith
"karin" wrote:
That's exactly what a bully is: someone who is frustrated and unhappy, not getting his or her needs met, and displacing that onto another person. That's why it's important both to help meet his needs and to let him know that it's absolutely not Okay to insult his brother - because otherwise over time bullies get used to the idea that hurtful behavior is the best way to get their needs met. He's told you as much: he's mean to his brother because that's the only time he's listened to. Woops.
It may not be enough to "make a deal" - it may not change anything at all. If your son is being obnoxious to his brother because he's not getting enough attention to begin with, then telling him he can always come to you is going to sound like blah, blah, blah, blah. Your actions have already shown him that the way to get attention from you is to be hurtful. Which isn't to say you shouldn't drop what you're doing and go be with your kids, but don't make an announcement. Just Do it - show your kids by your actions that their needs and feelings are important to you.
Make a deal with Yourself to be closer to your son, spend more time where he is - be more present. Don't leave the onus of deciding he's grumpy, tired, lonely, frustrated, uncertain, bored, or whatever on him. That's why he has a mom, to notice those things when he can't so he can Learn to notice them, rather than learning how to be a bully.
---Meredith
>> He is not a bully. He is just an 8-year old kid with lot's of things going on inside and around him, some of that stuff is frustrating to him. And by using bad language he knows he will get my attention that very second.**************
That's exactly what a bully is: someone who is frustrated and unhappy, not getting his or her needs met, and displacing that onto another person. That's why it's important both to help meet his needs and to let him know that it's absolutely not Okay to insult his brother - because otherwise over time bullies get used to the idea that hurtful behavior is the best way to get their needs met. He's told you as much: he's mean to his brother because that's the only time he's listened to. Woops.
>>That's what I will do this very minute. Close the computer and make a deal with my lovely kids, that whenever they feel frustrated, bored or annoyed they can come to me and show me instead of acting out on eachother.************
It may not be enough to "make a deal" - it may not change anything at all. If your son is being obnoxious to his brother because he's not getting enough attention to begin with, then telling him he can always come to you is going to sound like blah, blah, blah, blah. Your actions have already shown him that the way to get attention from you is to be hurtful. Which isn't to say you shouldn't drop what you're doing and go be with your kids, but don't make an announcement. Just Do it - show your kids by your actions that their needs and feelings are important to you.
Make a deal with Yourself to be closer to your son, spend more time where he is - be more present. Don't leave the onus of deciding he's grumpy, tired, lonely, frustrated, uncertain, bored, or whatever on him. That's why he has a mom, to notice those things when he can't so he can Learn to notice them, rather than learning how to be a bully.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-don't make an announcement. Just Do it - show your kids by your actions that their needs and feelings are important to you.
-=-Make a deal with Yourself to be closer to your son, spend more time where he is - be more present. Don't leave the onus of deciding he's grumpy, tired, lonely, frustrated, uncertain, bored, or whatever on him. That's why he has a mom, to notice those things when he can't so he can Learn to notice them, rather than learning how to be a bully. -=-
YES.
Too many parents talk and talk to their kids, and ask them how they feel and ask them what they need.
Learn to guess. Learn to provide in advance. Food is good to practice with. Soft, clean cleared-off beds are good to practice with. Clearing off space for video gaming is nice. Soon you start to think about heat, softness, clean clothes, toothpaste before it runs out, favorite foods when you shop. And then people feel heard and comforted and entertained and loved.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-Make a deal with Yourself to be closer to your son, spend more time where he is - be more present. Don't leave the onus of deciding he's grumpy, tired, lonely, frustrated, uncertain, bored, or whatever on him. That's why he has a mom, to notice those things when he can't so he can Learn to notice them, rather than learning how to be a bully. -=-
YES.
Too many parents talk and talk to their kids, and ask them how they feel and ask them what they need.
Learn to guess. Learn to provide in advance. Food is good to practice with. Soft, clean cleared-off beds are good to practice with. Clearing off space for video gaming is nice. Soon you start to think about heat, softness, clean clothes, toothpaste before it runs out, favorite foods when you shop. And then people feel heard and comforted and entertained and loved.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yvonne Laborda
Hi, I'm new here but have been unschooling our 3 children since they were
born, Ainara is nearly 8, Urtzi 6 and Naikari nearly 4.. I'm a Spanish mum
living in Spain, near Barcelona.
I mostly agree that calling bad names can hurt. But if we tell them that
those words hurt we are also preparing them to feel hurt whenever anybody
calls them "something". My children don't actually use these kind of words
but other kids have told them "things" sometimes but I have always asked
them if they think they are bad, silly, stupid... or whatever the word was.
They answered: "No, I'm not... of course not". So I said to them that what
they think about themselves is much more important than what others think.
I also tell them not to use them because there are people who do feel hurt
but mine don't really care too much when someone calls them XXX. They look
at me and roll their eyes o just say : "Oh... that's what you think...it's
not true, though".
I love this list! Thanks to all of you!
I think I've mostly read all Sandra's, Joyce's and Pam's webs and blogs.
2013/1/6 Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Yvonne Laborda.
www.welivelearning.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
born, Ainara is nearly 8, Urtzi 6 and Naikari nearly 4.. I'm a Spanish mum
living in Spain, near Barcelona.
I mostly agree that calling bad names can hurt. But if we tell them that
those words hurt we are also preparing them to feel hurt whenever anybody
calls them "something". My children don't actually use these kind of words
but other kids have told them "things" sometimes but I have always asked
them if they think they are bad, silly, stupid... or whatever the word was.
They answered: "No, I'm not... of course not". So I said to them that what
they think about themselves is much more important than what others think.
I also tell them not to use them because there are people who do feel hurt
but mine don't really care too much when someone calls them XXX. They look
at me and roll their eyes o just say : "Oh... that's what you think...it's
not true, though".
I love this list! Thanks to all of you!
I think I've mostly read all Sandra's, Joyce's and Pam's webs and blogs.
2013/1/6 Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
> **--
>
>
> -=-don't make an announcement. Just Do it - show your kids by your actions
> that their needs and feelings are important to you.
>
> -=-Make a deal with Yourself to be closer to your son, spend more time
> where he is - be more present. Don't leave the onus of deciding he's
> grumpy, tired, lonely, frustrated, uncertain, bored, or whatever on him.
> That's why he has a mom, to notice those things when he can't so he can
> Learn to notice them, rather than learning how to be a bully. -=-
>
> YES.
> Too many parents talk and talk to their kids, and ask them how they feel
> and ask them what they need.
>
> Learn to guess. Learn to provide in advance. Food is good to practice
> with. Soft, clean cleared-off beds are good to practice with. Clearing off
> space for video gaming is nice. Soon you start to think about heat,
> softness, clean clothes, toothpaste before it runs out, favorite foods when
> you shop. And then people feel heard and comforted and entertained and
> loved.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
Yvonne Laborda.
www.welivelearning.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 6, 2013, at 3:25 PM, Yvonne Laborda wrote:
It suggests kids who are highly suggestible, that others' thoughts easily replace their own.
Kids are pretty good about knowing their own feelings even if they can't name them. And those feelings don't change whimsically. What they don't know is what others are feeling. They can think that because something isn't hurting them that it isn't hurting someone else. And parents can help by cluing them in.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I mostly agree that calling bad names can hurt.What about it don't you agree with? "Can" means for some kids it will hurt and others it won't.
> But if we tell them thatHave you seen that happen?
> those words hurt we are also preparing them to feel hurt whenever anybody
> calls them "something"
It suggests kids who are highly suggestible, that others' thoughts easily replace their own.
Kids are pretty good about knowing their own feelings even if they can't name them. And those feelings don't change whimsically. What they don't know is what others are feeling. They can think that because something isn't hurting them that it isn't hurting someone else. And parents can help by cluing them in.
Joyce
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