working after unschooling
julie day
I've been pondering something Sandra Dodd said in a recent thread entitled "Reading Comprehension" (not sure how to link it here):
Julie
>>Kirby worked at a gaming store from the time he was 14, and volunteered there earlier....<<My question (for all of you with young adult kids) -- how does unschooling prepare kids for the 40-hour work week (assuming many will have jobs that look like that). How has Kirby (for example) done with the fact that the large corporation owns his time week after week?
>>Today, 12 years later, he teaches people how to understand the rules of World of Warcraft well enough to help players inside the game, and they also all need to "understand the rules) of the legal liability and company policies in addition to that. And Kirby understands the rules of the management of groups of people doing shift work for a large corporation.<<
Julie
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<My question (for all of you with young adult kids) -- how does unschooling prepare kids for the 40-hour work week (assuming many will have jobs that look like that). How has Kirby (for example) done with the fact that the large corporation owns his time week after week?>>>
My kids are young so I know you are not asking me but I do not see it "the large corporation owns his time week after week".
Unschooling kids grow up with choices. THey know they have choices. I see it as a choice he has made to work everyday.
If he did not want to he could quit!
He may love what he does?! I know I am happy my husband likes what he does. I hope my kids see that they have choices in life.
Alex Polikowsky
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My kids are young so I know you are not asking me but I do not see it "the large corporation owns his time week after week".
Unschooling kids grow up with choices. THey know they have choices. I see it as a choice he has made to work everyday.
If he did not want to he could quit!
He may love what he does?! I know I am happy my husband likes what he does. I hope my kids see that they have choices in life.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-My question (for all of you with young adult kids) -- how does unschooling prepare kids for the 40-hour work week (assuming many will have jobs that look like that). How has Kirby (for example) done with the fact that the large corporation owns his time week after week? -=-
I like this question.
First I'm going to quote something from an interview online. Then I'm going to come back with a philosophical answer.
Reader Questions (RQ):
RQ 1: My question about this approach is how children would learn when they have to be in a situation that is structured. Unfortunately, those situations do pop up in life (particularly in higher education or training for future careers). Part of the educational process, to some extent, is learning to cope with different environments in which learning must occur. I love the ideas of letting a child explore his or her passions and think this applies regardless of a child being educated in a homeschool setting or in a school system.
Sandra: It doesn�t take ten years of practice for a kid to learn how to show up on time, and if they�re interested in doing something, they�ll probably get up early! All my children and very many more I�ve known have excelled in structured situations because they were there by choice and they weren�t sick to death of structure. They thought it was fun, when it was their option to be there or not.
When Marty attended a weeklong Jr. Police Academy when he was 14, the sergeant fell over homeself at the awards dinner, telling me how disciplined Marty was and how attentive and cooperative. �You can always tell a kid who comes from a family with a lot of discipline and rules,� he said. What he was seeing was a kid who really wanted to be there, who was interested in learning. School claims that it�s important for kids to learn to follow a schedule, but it takes no learning at all.
School defenders claim that unschooled kids won�t know how to stand in a line. Anyone who�s ever gone to a movie knows how to follow a schedule and queue up. :=) It�s another thing that doesn�t take years of practice.
Another claim is that if kids don�t live with strictly scheduled days, with early bedtimes and early wake-up calls, they will never be able to hold a job. My kids owned their own alarm clocks early on, and it took them about fifteen seconds to learn to use them. My oldest has been working since he was 14, and the other two since mid-teens, too. The three of them have 22 years of work experience among them. Currently, Marty works at 4:00 or 4:30 a.m. (depending on the day), and Kirby works from 8:30 p.m. to 7:30 a.m. four nights a week.
Adding those to the collection of the shift starting-times of the jobs my kids have worked shows a range that would easily suggest that a child who grew up with an early bedtime and a wake-up call would be quite handicapped holding a job, while my kids with their flexible lives based on the requirements of the situation have done very well:
AM:
4:00 (or 4:30 some days)
6:30 (Marty, for 16 months when he was 16/17)
8:00
9:00
10:00 (Holly at a flower shop)
11:00
PM:
1:00
3:00
4:30
5:00
6:00
8:30 (to 7:30 a.m.)
11:00 (to 8:00 a.m.)
The idea that �discipline� about studying or waking and sleeping is necessary is another of many school-based myths accepted as fact. Unschoolers have done very well in jobs, colleges and universities. Here are some accounts of teens� jobs. Pam Sorooshian wrote this about her three daughters, each of whom received a college degree this Spring.
http://www.mommy-labs.com/holistic_living/sandra-dodd-interview-how-do-unschoolers-cope-with-college-questions-on-learning-without-school-living-joyfully/
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I like this question.
First I'm going to quote something from an interview online. Then I'm going to come back with a philosophical answer.
Reader Questions (RQ):
RQ 1: My question about this approach is how children would learn when they have to be in a situation that is structured. Unfortunately, those situations do pop up in life (particularly in higher education or training for future careers). Part of the educational process, to some extent, is learning to cope with different environments in which learning must occur. I love the ideas of letting a child explore his or her passions and think this applies regardless of a child being educated in a homeschool setting or in a school system.
Sandra: It doesn�t take ten years of practice for a kid to learn how to show up on time, and if they�re interested in doing something, they�ll probably get up early! All my children and very many more I�ve known have excelled in structured situations because they were there by choice and they weren�t sick to death of structure. They thought it was fun, when it was their option to be there or not.
When Marty attended a weeklong Jr. Police Academy when he was 14, the sergeant fell over homeself at the awards dinner, telling me how disciplined Marty was and how attentive and cooperative. �You can always tell a kid who comes from a family with a lot of discipline and rules,� he said. What he was seeing was a kid who really wanted to be there, who was interested in learning. School claims that it�s important for kids to learn to follow a schedule, but it takes no learning at all.
School defenders claim that unschooled kids won�t know how to stand in a line. Anyone who�s ever gone to a movie knows how to follow a schedule and queue up. :=) It�s another thing that doesn�t take years of practice.
Another claim is that if kids don�t live with strictly scheduled days, with early bedtimes and early wake-up calls, they will never be able to hold a job. My kids owned their own alarm clocks early on, and it took them about fifteen seconds to learn to use them. My oldest has been working since he was 14, and the other two since mid-teens, too. The three of them have 22 years of work experience among them. Currently, Marty works at 4:00 or 4:30 a.m. (depending on the day), and Kirby works from 8:30 p.m. to 7:30 a.m. four nights a week.
Adding those to the collection of the shift starting-times of the jobs my kids have worked shows a range that would easily suggest that a child who grew up with an early bedtime and a wake-up call would be quite handicapped holding a job, while my kids with their flexible lives based on the requirements of the situation have done very well:
AM:
4:00 (or 4:30 some days)
6:30 (Marty, for 16 months when he was 16/17)
8:00
9:00
10:00 (Holly at a flower shop)
11:00
PM:
1:00
3:00
4:30
5:00
6:00
8:30 (to 7:30 a.m.)
11:00 (to 8:00 a.m.)
The idea that �discipline� about studying or waking and sleeping is necessary is another of many school-based myths accepted as fact. Unschoolers have done very well in jobs, colleges and universities. Here are some accounts of teens� jobs. Pam Sorooshian wrote this about her three daughters, each of whom received a college degree this Spring.
http://www.mommy-labs.com/holistic_living/sandra-dodd-interview-how-do-unschoolers-cope-with-college-questions-on-learning-without-school-living-joyfully/
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Sandra Dodd
Ah.... Alex touched on my philosophical answer:
She wrote:
"Unschooling kids grow up with choices. THey know they have choices. I see it as a choice he has made to work everyday.
If he did not want to he could quit!"
The question was -=-how does unschooling prepare kids for the 40-hour work week (assuming many will have jobs that look like that). How has Kirby (for example) done with the fact that the large corporation owns his time week after week? -=-
Blizzard Entertainment doesn't own Kirby Dodd. They invited him to work there. :-) He accepted. They paid for him to move to Austin; if he didn't last six months, he would have owed some of the moving money. He's been there five and a half years. But each day is a choice. He knows he can quit when he's done. He was relieved not to have lost his job when they had a big layoff last year.
My kids have a friend, who's about Kirby's age. He went to school. He didn't go to college.
A few years ago he was very happy that he had applied for a job at T-Mobile and gotten it! He was giddy, when he found out he had the job. A few days later, before he had gone in for training, but knew the job was his, he was at a party here and was posing/posturing about what a drag it was to be working for a corporation. I was not the least bit embarrassed to say "You APPLIED for that job."
He wasn't drafted, or snatched by a press gang.
If he goes to work, he gets paid.
If he goes to work happily, he helps other people be happy.
If he goes to work and does well, he's praised and rewarded for that. He's had three promotions.
Your question seemed to be about evil corporations. :-)
Partly it seemed to be about your concern that unschooling is risky and iffy.
My answer, though, is all about Kirby. (And partly about the contrast to his always-schooled friend.)
Sandra
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She wrote:
"Unschooling kids grow up with choices. THey know they have choices. I see it as a choice he has made to work everyday.
If he did not want to he could quit!"
The question was -=-how does unschooling prepare kids for the 40-hour work week (assuming many will have jobs that look like that). How has Kirby (for example) done with the fact that the large corporation owns his time week after week? -=-
Blizzard Entertainment doesn't own Kirby Dodd. They invited him to work there. :-) He accepted. They paid for him to move to Austin; if he didn't last six months, he would have owed some of the moving money. He's been there five and a half years. But each day is a choice. He knows he can quit when he's done. He was relieved not to have lost his job when they had a big layoff last year.
My kids have a friend, who's about Kirby's age. He went to school. He didn't go to college.
A few years ago he was very happy that he had applied for a job at T-Mobile and gotten it! He was giddy, when he found out he had the job. A few days later, before he had gone in for training, but knew the job was his, he was at a party here and was posing/posturing about what a drag it was to be working for a corporation. I was not the least bit embarrassed to say "You APPLIED for that job."
He wasn't drafted, or snatched by a press gang.
If he goes to work, he gets paid.
If he goes to work happily, he helps other people be happy.
If he goes to work and does well, he's praised and rewarded for that. He's had three promotions.
Your question seemed to be about evil corporations. :-)
Partly it seemed to be about your concern that unschooling is risky and iffy.
My answer, though, is all about Kirby. (And partly about the contrast to his always-schooled friend.)
Sandra
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Jenny Cyphers
***how does unschooling prepare kids for the 40-hour work week (assuming many will have jobs that look like that).***
A couple of nights ago I took a young adult to the ER at 2 am. He's staying at our house for a couple of months. He has diabetes and he accidentally took the wrong insulin and couldn't get his blood sugar to stop dropping, so we took him in.
The ER was peaceful at that hour. I'm sure it isn't always that way but it was that night. At 2 am there were many people up and working and enjoying their jobs. There were front desk staff and nurses and doctors and janitors and security guards and police officers.
While I was sitting there waiting, trying not to fall asleep, I thought about what it would be like to work there in that moment. The two women at the front desk were happily chatting and working and based on the location of their desk, they could watch the sun rise every morning through a magnificent huge window.
Margaux, 11 yrs old, was with us because she was worried about our friend. We were there until 6 am. For four hrs, she stayed awake and watched and waited. She could have a job with unconventional hrs for sure. Maybe some of those people working had regular 40 hr weeks, maybe some of them didn't. Maybe some of them never wanted to work nights and ended up there anyway.
What I know for sure is that either of my kids could have a job at whatever hour of the day and settle in just fine as long as they liked the work.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A couple of nights ago I took a young adult to the ER at 2 am. He's staying at our house for a couple of months. He has diabetes and he accidentally took the wrong insulin and couldn't get his blood sugar to stop dropping, so we took him in.
The ER was peaceful at that hour. I'm sure it isn't always that way but it was that night. At 2 am there were many people up and working and enjoying their jobs. There were front desk staff and nurses and doctors and janitors and security guards and police officers.
While I was sitting there waiting, trying not to fall asleep, I thought about what it would be like to work there in that moment. The two women at the front desk were happily chatting and working and based on the location of their desk, they could watch the sun rise every morning through a magnificent huge window.
Margaux, 11 yrs old, was with us because she was worried about our friend. We were there until 6 am. For four hrs, she stayed awake and watched and waited. She could have a job with unconventional hrs for sure. Maybe some of those people working had regular 40 hr weeks, maybe some of them didn't. Maybe some of them never wanted to work nights and ended up there anyway.
What I know for sure is that either of my kids could have a job at whatever hour of the day and settle in just fine as long as they liked the work.
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Meredith
"julie day" <julie@...> wrote:
Ray's spent the fall working on an organic farm - harvesting, which is long, dull work, more than 40hrs a week. He's done agricultural work before, though; we live in a rural area, and it's relatively easy for a teenage boy to get jobs fencing and haying and helping with livestock, so he's done those things. He's knows the hard, sweaty, no days off side of farming. We have neighbors who know they can call him for odd jobs and know he's trustworthy.
He also knows about living as a professional craftsperson - something he hopes to do, himself, has done to a small extent. He knows about the mad rush to get things done before a show, about deadlines and all-nighters and the need to look cool and unruffled at the show itself, for the customers. He knows about having to work two or three jobs to support one's passions.
A lot of jobs - "regular" jobs - have crunch times and less intense times, seasons of work where people are asked to work extra hours, sometimes for no more than the usual pay. It can be a problem when you have people on your team who are there resentfully or just "going through the motions" to meet a requirement or draw the overtime. Ray got to that point in one job a couple years ago and quit - his personal integrity wasn't worth the money.
Ray will be back in a few weeks. There was never an age limit on him living here, and there's no expectation that he get it all together and move out by a particular deadline. So he has time to learn what works for him in terms of work - whether that's a regular job or self-employment, seasonal work, or something else - without the pressure of needing to keep his bills paid. That's a great luxury, one a lot of his friends don't have.
---Meredith
>> My question (for all of you with young adult kids) -- how does unschooling prepare kids for the 40-hour work week************
Ray's spent the fall working on an organic farm - harvesting, which is long, dull work, more than 40hrs a week. He's done agricultural work before, though; we live in a rural area, and it's relatively easy for a teenage boy to get jobs fencing and haying and helping with livestock, so he's done those things. He's knows the hard, sweaty, no days off side of farming. We have neighbors who know they can call him for odd jobs and know he's trustworthy.
He also knows about living as a professional craftsperson - something he hopes to do, himself, has done to a small extent. He knows about the mad rush to get things done before a show, about deadlines and all-nighters and the need to look cool and unruffled at the show itself, for the customers. He knows about having to work two or three jobs to support one's passions.
A lot of jobs - "regular" jobs - have crunch times and less intense times, seasons of work where people are asked to work extra hours, sometimes for no more than the usual pay. It can be a problem when you have people on your team who are there resentfully or just "going through the motions" to meet a requirement or draw the overtime. Ray got to that point in one job a couple years ago and quit - his personal integrity wasn't worth the money.
Ray will be back in a few weeks. There was never an age limit on him living here, and there's no expectation that he get it all together and move out by a particular deadline. So he has time to learn what works for him in terms of work - whether that's a regular job or self-employment, seasonal work, or something else - without the pressure of needing to keep his bills paid. That's a great luxury, one a lot of his friends don't have.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-There was never an age limit on him living here, and there's no expectation that he get it all together and move out by a particular deadline. So he has time to learn what works for him in terms of work - whether that's a regular job or self-employment, seasonal work, or something else - without the pressure of needing to keep his bills paid. That's a great luxury, one a lot of his friends don't have.-=-
That's true of our kids, too. They can work part time, and go to school at a leisurely fashion, and not feel the fear of supporting themselves in their early 20's.
The subject line showed itself more brightly this morning. "Working after unschooling." All of my kids worked "during" unschooling, from the ages of 14 (Kirby), 15 (Marty, who was working fulltime all the time he was 17) and 16 (Holly).
Sandra
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That's true of our kids, too. They can work part time, and go to school at a leisurely fashion, and not feel the fear of supporting themselves in their early 20's.
The subject line showed itself more brightly this morning. "Working after unschooling." All of my kids worked "during" unschooling, from the ages of 14 (Kirby), 15 (Marty, who was working fulltime all the time he was 17) and 16 (Holly).
Sandra
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Robert and Colleen
****how does unschooling prepare kids for the 40-hour work week (assuming
many will have jobs that look like that)****
I think there are people who are really good at following exact schedules,
being on time, staying somewhere til the clock says they can leave, taking
Responsibility seriously, keeping commitments, and following through on what
they say they'll do. Those people often make excellent, reliable employees
of corporations or other businesses. Many of these people have been to
school, because school is where the majority of children (statistically
speaking) in the US, Europe, and many other places spend their childhoods.
But school doesn't create people who can follow schedules and be on time and
do what they're told and learn what they're told and when. School rewards
people who can do these things - whose internal rhythms are set up this way
and whose preferences lean this way - and it encourages these behaviors, and
discourages the opposite. Kids who do what Schools require are rewarded
with good grades and praise and special jobs (like Hall Monitor). School
tells these kids they will have great jobs one day - that they will be able
to Do Anything They Want if they keep their grades up and behave well and
follow along with what they're asked to do. Lots of parents in turn believe
that what this means is that school is Making their children into Future
Wonderful Workers. But the school isn't doing the Making - there are so
very many people who go through school without coming out as Good Workers at
graduation :-)
Look at all the people who, because of their personality or interests etc.
don't want to (or can't) hold a Traditional job with Traditional hours - and
who have been to the same schools as the Good Workers :-) People who own
their own businesses or who follow their dreams of being artists or actors
or such. People who spend their lives traveling, or volunteering rather
than working. People who decide they'd rather stay at home with their kids
than Work a Regular job. People who literally can't hold a job and need to
rely on public assistance or charity to get by. People who work part-time,
flex-time, or other Non-Traditional schedules. For example, people who flex
their time among shifts working anywhere within the 24-hour day in a given
week depending on the needs of their employer (my husband had a job like
that for a while, where he was a manager who was expected to show up any
given day on whatever shift he felt needed him most).
There are many ways to Make a Living - or to simply Live - that barely touch
on the world Schools envision of clocks and bells and lunch hours and
stagnant, precise schedules. I personally work part-time from home, don't
punch a clock, work when I need to (day or night) during the week to meet my
deadlines, and rarely if ever need to set an alarm clock and rise before the
sun does like I did in order to get to school on time :-)
And re the original question - unschooling, in my mind, doesn't prepare kids
for the 40 hour week any more than school does. What unschooling does is
let kids Live - now - today - in a happy, fun way full of learning and joy
and peace and wonder. Unschooling doesn't only reward kids who will fit
into the corporate world - doesn't tell kids the only way their lives will
Count is if they have good jobs and make good money and get promotions and
then use their money to Buy Things :-) Unschooling is about looking at who
your kids are Now - Today - and helping them explore and enjoy in a world
that is full of possibilities -not a world that is pointed one-way toward
the corporate entrance doors.
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
many will have jobs that look like that)****
I think there are people who are really good at following exact schedules,
being on time, staying somewhere til the clock says they can leave, taking
Responsibility seriously, keeping commitments, and following through on what
they say they'll do. Those people often make excellent, reliable employees
of corporations or other businesses. Many of these people have been to
school, because school is where the majority of children (statistically
speaking) in the US, Europe, and many other places spend their childhoods.
But school doesn't create people who can follow schedules and be on time and
do what they're told and learn what they're told and when. School rewards
people who can do these things - whose internal rhythms are set up this way
and whose preferences lean this way - and it encourages these behaviors, and
discourages the opposite. Kids who do what Schools require are rewarded
with good grades and praise and special jobs (like Hall Monitor). School
tells these kids they will have great jobs one day - that they will be able
to Do Anything They Want if they keep their grades up and behave well and
follow along with what they're asked to do. Lots of parents in turn believe
that what this means is that school is Making their children into Future
Wonderful Workers. But the school isn't doing the Making - there are so
very many people who go through school without coming out as Good Workers at
graduation :-)
Look at all the people who, because of their personality or interests etc.
don't want to (or can't) hold a Traditional job with Traditional hours - and
who have been to the same schools as the Good Workers :-) People who own
their own businesses or who follow their dreams of being artists or actors
or such. People who spend their lives traveling, or volunteering rather
than working. People who decide they'd rather stay at home with their kids
than Work a Regular job. People who literally can't hold a job and need to
rely on public assistance or charity to get by. People who work part-time,
flex-time, or other Non-Traditional schedules. For example, people who flex
their time among shifts working anywhere within the 24-hour day in a given
week depending on the needs of their employer (my husband had a job like
that for a while, where he was a manager who was expected to show up any
given day on whatever shift he felt needed him most).
There are many ways to Make a Living - or to simply Live - that barely touch
on the world Schools envision of clocks and bells and lunch hours and
stagnant, precise schedules. I personally work part-time from home, don't
punch a clock, work when I need to (day or night) during the week to meet my
deadlines, and rarely if ever need to set an alarm clock and rise before the
sun does like I did in order to get to school on time :-)
And re the original question - unschooling, in my mind, doesn't prepare kids
for the 40 hour week any more than school does. What unschooling does is
let kids Live - now - today - in a happy, fun way full of learning and joy
and peace and wonder. Unschooling doesn't only reward kids who will fit
into the corporate world - doesn't tell kids the only way their lives will
Count is if they have good jobs and make good money and get promotions and
then use their money to Buy Things :-) Unschooling is about looking at who
your kids are Now - Today - and helping them explore and enjoy in a world
that is full of possibilities -not a world that is pointed one-way toward
the corporate entrance doors.
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
> >> My question (for all of you with young adult kids) -- how doesUnschooling encourages thoughtful and conscious decision making because the
> unschooling prepare kids for the 40-hour work week
kids aren't marched through forced schedules and told what and when and how
to do most things in their lives. The decide within a family structure,
though, so it isn't like they never have other people's interests, demands,
needs to consider.
When they get older, they often choose to put themselves into circumstances
that involve commitments to other people's schedules and requirements,
though. Their own interests usually lead to involvement with organizations,
classes, groups of people, businesses, etc. What I've observed is that they
are excellent at keeping to schedules, appointments, agendas, regulations
and rules. They don't shirk responsibilities to groups. I do believe this
is because they haven't been put into a position of learning to shirk -
something schools manage to teach quite well.
When they decide to take a job, they decide carefully - they think ahead
about what they are committing to do. One of my daughters who is a night
owl, normally, took a job this past few months that requires her to get up
around 5:30 am and catch a bus at 6:30 to be at work by 7:30 am. She really
thought about that schedule and what impact it would have on her usual way
of life. She decided she would do it and she has not missed a single day or
been late a single day since she started the job three months ago.
People who are used to making smaller decisions (what to eat, when to go to
bed, what to read, what to spend their time on) get used to thinking before
acting - they get used to considering the possible options before
committing to one of them.
I have three unschooled kids all now in their 20s. They've all had jobs and
been valued employees.
I will also say, though, that it is very possible that unschooled kids will
choose their work more consciously than other kids, too, and they'll think
about the kind of work schedule it will entail. My daughters have very
consciously thought about this kind of thing and most definitely are not
wanting 8 to 5 jobs sitting in an office while their own children are off
at daycare, so that entered strongly into career choices for them. They
want flexibility of scheduling and they want part-time options, too. So
they're planning ahead for that.
A very interesting observation is also that these grown-up unschooled kids
turn out almost always to be rule followers and extremely reliable. At the
beginning of our unschooling journey I thought this might happen (for
various reasons) - but now I've seen it and not just for my own kids, but
all of their unschooled friends, too.
Honestly, I think that years of forced practice at following schedules
imposed by other people (schools or by parents) is what makes so many
adults irresponsible and unreliable.
Coercion causes people to become apathetic or resistant. Neither of those
bodes well for someone being a reliable employee holding down a 40-hour
workweek job.
-pam
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Sandra Dodd
I would stand and applaud if we were in person. :-)
-=-What I've observed is that they
are excellent at keeping to schedules, appointments, agendas, regulations
and rules. They don't shirk responsibilities to groups. I do believe this
is because they haven't been put into a position of learning to shirk -
something schools manage to teach quite well.-=- (Pam Sorooshian wrote that.)
Yes, yes:
-=-People who are used to making smaller decisions (what to eat, when to go to
bed, what to read, what to spend their time on) get used to thinking before
acting - they get used to considering the possible options before
committing to one of them.-=-
The adversarial relationship most traditional parenting (and the addition of school) creates means IF a child get up early, the parent wins and the child loses. The child looks forward to becoming an adult, so he can sleep as late as he wants to (his "win," in the contest set up by his parents, and school's schedule).
My kids got to sleep late lots, and it's no big deal to them.
Sandra
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-=-What I've observed is that they
are excellent at keeping to schedules, appointments, agendas, regulations
and rules. They don't shirk responsibilities to groups. I do believe this
is because they haven't been put into a position of learning to shirk -
something schools manage to teach quite well.-=- (Pam Sorooshian wrote that.)
Yes, yes:
-=-People who are used to making smaller decisions (what to eat, when to go to
bed, what to read, what to spend their time on) get used to thinking before
acting - they get used to considering the possible options before
committing to one of them.-=-
The adversarial relationship most traditional parenting (and the addition of school) creates means IF a child get up early, the parent wins and the child loses. The child looks forward to becoming an adult, so he can sleep as late as he wants to (his "win," in the contest set up by his parents, and school's schedule).
My kids got to sleep late lots, and it's no big deal to them.
Sandra
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Jay Ford
Regarding how unschooling prepares kids for a 40-hour work week:
My daughter is 18 and last summer began working at a local bakery. It wasn't an issue getting her up and out the door; she loved it so much she wanted to be there. She made so many friends at work, and we had a lot of good discussions of work ethics and dating coworkers and what bosses expect, etc. She was a valued employee and they called her in a lot to fill in for others who needed days off, were sick, etc, and she made a bunch of overtime. She finally had to scale back on saying yes so much as she was burned out.
She scaled back this semester while attending community college, but was having too much fun at work to want to study hard enough for school, and consequently didn't do as well as she would have liked in math (algebra) because of her own procrastination. But she was able to see that in herself, and I think she learned a lot from the experience of trying to balance school and work. She still doesn't know what she wants to do with her life, but I'm glad she has had these experiences that are shaping who she is.
Jon
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My daughter is 18 and last summer began working at a local bakery. It wasn't an issue getting her up and out the door; she loved it so much she wanted to be there. She made so many friends at work, and we had a lot of good discussions of work ethics and dating coworkers and what bosses expect, etc. She was a valued employee and they called her in a lot to fill in for others who needed days off, were sick, etc, and she made a bunch of overtime. She finally had to scale back on saying yes so much as she was burned out.
She scaled back this semester while attending community college, but was having too much fun at work to want to study hard enough for school, and consequently didn't do as well as she would have liked in math (algebra) because of her own procrastination. But she was able to see that in herself, and I think she learned a lot from the experience of trying to balance school and work. She still doesn't know what she wants to do with her life, but I'm glad she has had these experiences that are shaping who she is.
Jon
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Meredith
Jay Ford <jay.ford79@...> wrote:
When I was in high school and college, work was kind of a "guilty pleasure" for me. I was working in a fabric shop and loving every minute of it, learning a ton, but it wasn't the sort of work I was supposed to care about - just the sort of job students get while they're still students. In retrospect, I remember and use and value more of what I learned working at the fabric shop than in school but at the time I felt like I had to justify my job in terms "developing independence" and "learning good work ethics".
Back when I was in my late 20s or early 30s, I remember saying "I don't know what I want to do with my life" and someone was kind enough to say "the important thing is to Live it." That was good for me to hear. In college I Knew what I wanted to do as a career... until I actually started doing the work and discovered it didn't suit me at all. It helped to hear that maybe I wasn't floundering around trying to figure things out after all, that I wasn't failing in the process of becoming a real adult, I was already a real person, living my life.
I've changed directions a few times in my life and have a number of friends who have also had big changes - some for spiritual reasons, some health reasons, some to do with technology and the changing workforce, some because they had children and discovered homeschooling ;)
---Meredith
>> She scaled back this semester while attending community college, but was having too much fun at work to want to study hard enough for school, and consequently didn't do as well as she would have liked in math (algebra) because of her own procrastination.***************
When I was in high school and college, work was kind of a "guilty pleasure" for me. I was working in a fabric shop and loving every minute of it, learning a ton, but it wasn't the sort of work I was supposed to care about - just the sort of job students get while they're still students. In retrospect, I remember and use and value more of what I learned working at the fabric shop than in school but at the time I felt like I had to justify my job in terms "developing independence" and "learning good work ethics".
>>She still doesn't know what she wants to do with her life, but I'm glad she has had these experiences that are shaping who she is.****************
Back when I was in my late 20s or early 30s, I remember saying "I don't know what I want to do with my life" and someone was kind enough to say "the important thing is to Live it." That was good for me to hear. In college I Knew what I wanted to do as a career... until I actually started doing the work and discovered it didn't suit me at all. It helped to hear that maybe I wasn't floundering around trying to figure things out after all, that I wasn't failing in the process of becoming a real adult, I was already a real person, living my life.
I've changed directions a few times in my life and have a number of friends who have also had big changes - some for spiritual reasons, some health reasons, some to do with technology and the changing workforce, some because they had children and discovered homeschooling ;)
---Meredith
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<<"Back when I was in my late 20s or early 30s, I remember saying "I don't know what I want to do with my life" and someone was kind enough to say "the important thing is to Live it." That was good for me to hear. In college I Knew what I wanted to do as a career... until I actually started doing the work and discovered it didn't suit me at all. It helped to hear that maybe I wasn't floundering around trying to figure things out after all, that I wasn't failing in the process of becoming a real adult, I was already a real person, living my life. "">>>>>>>>>>>>
I wish I had someone say this to me. I could have written the first part above.
I was not until I had my children that I changed how I view what I do.
I went to Law School graduated. Loved Law School but not really working with. I have been working since I was 13 years old with many many different things
and continued that until I had my children.
I still like to do lots of different things but my children completely changed me. I now know what I want to do. I want to
be the best mom I can and create the best home for my children.
That does not stop me from liking and doing many other things I love to do. The big differnce is that I no longer
even think about what I want to do in my life. I just do it. I do what I love and that gives me and my family joy.
It is hard to explain but having my children and learning about unschooling has made me a more content and peaceful life.
|I have been always a content and optimistic person but now I have less anxiety and more peace.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I wish I had someone say this to me. I could have written the first part above.
I was not until I had my children that I changed how I view what I do.
I went to Law School graduated. Loved Law School but not really working with. I have been working since I was 13 years old with many many different things
and continued that until I had my children.
I still like to do lots of different things but my children completely changed me. I now know what I want to do. I want to
be the best mom I can and create the best home for my children.
That does not stop me from liking and doing many other things I love to do. The big differnce is that I no longer
even think about what I want to do in my life. I just do it. I do what I love and that gives me and my family joy.
It is hard to explain but having my children and learning about unschooling has made me a more content and peaceful life.
|I have been always a content and optimistic person but now I have less anxiety and more peace.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]