learning to read
Pam Sorooshian
This is a comment on a post on Psychology Today. I am swamped and don't
have time to devote to interacting with this mom - but I hear the anguish
in her voice and don't want to leave her hanging either. I'm sending you
all the link and hoping some will go over there to talk with her?
This is the link:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201002/children-teach-themselves-read/comments?page=7
This is the comment:
Subject: late unschooled non-reader
My husband and I both went to graduate school, and are highly literate. My
unschooled son, at 13, still cannot read. I read to him for hours, I help
him
read things when he asks and we have tried a variety of approaches.
My son is mortified that all his friends can read and he can't. He WANTS to
read, but finds the process exceedingly difficult and frustrating. He asks
me
to "force" him to learn to read, and when I suggest we do some reading
practice he goes into a high-stress reaction.
So, I continue to look for "reading programs" that he will submit to
struggle
through. If they have a hint or flavor or being childish, he revolts. I have
to say, both phonics and reading in context approaches have so far not
worked
for us. I inquired at a local university where it was suggested by the
literacy expert I get him labeled as ADHD. Big help.
Any thoughts are appreciated.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have time to devote to interacting with this mom - but I hear the anguish
in her voice and don't want to leave her hanging either. I'm sending you
all the link and hoping some will go over there to talk with her?
This is the link:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201002/children-teach-themselves-read/comments?page=7
This is the comment:
Subject: late unschooled non-reader
My husband and I both went to graduate school, and are highly literate. My
unschooled son, at 13, still cannot read. I read to him for hours, I help
him
read things when he asks and we have tried a variety of approaches.
My son is mortified that all his friends can read and he can't. He WANTS to
read, but finds the process exceedingly difficult and frustrating. He asks
me
to "force" him to learn to read, and when I suggest we do some reading
practice he goes into a high-stress reaction.
So, I continue to look for "reading programs" that he will submit to
struggle
through. If they have a hint or flavor or being childish, he revolts. I have
to say, both phonics and reading in context approaches have so far not
worked
for us. I inquired at a local university where it was suggested by the
literacy expert I get him labeled as ADHD. Big help.
Any thoughts are appreciated.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Claire
By coincidence Tiffany at Freeplaylife just posted about her younger daughter being very dyslexic, and about how they are trying an Orton-Gillingham program to help her learn to read. I've posted this at Psychology Today.
Cheers,
Claire
Cheers,
Claire
Robin Bentley
Here's the post:
http://freeplaylife.com/?s=orton+gillingham&x=0&y=0
Robin B.
http://freeplaylife.com/?s=orton+gillingham&x=0&y=0
Robin B.
On Dec 4, 2012, at 3:35 AM, Claire wrote:
> By coincidence Tiffany at Freeplaylife just posted about her younger
> daughter being very dyslexic, and about how they are trying an Orton-
> Gillingham program to help her learn to read. I've posted this at
> Psychology Today.
>
> Cheers,
> Claire
>
>
>
>
>
Sandra Dodd
What's below was written, but not yet mailed, when I saw that someone had brought the link to the blog post. I'm sorry that was brought here. I don't really want to discuss a blog post by someone who's not on this list and didn't bring it up herself.
____________________________________________________________
Claire wrote:
-=-By coincidence Tiffany at Freeplaylife just posted about her younger daughter being very dyslexic, and about how they are trying an Orton-Gillingham program to help her learn to read. I've posted this at Psychology Today.-=-
Someone wrote to me on the side, and I'll let the comment through without a name. The point isn't to be critical of the blogger, but to keep this discussion clearly on topic.
__________________
I really dislike this blog that was recommended on the list. |I am not sure if I should say something . I am afraid I will sound petty and negative. Many people like it but I really do not as an unschooling blog at all.
_______________
I think sending that comment (Claire's) to Psychology Today is fine.
Leaving it here as a good idea for unschoolers is less fine. :-)
I don't know how young the mentioned younger daughter is, or whether she was ever in school, but if a family's priorities and principles are to try to keep their kids "on track" with school schedules they are more likely to want to push a kid than not. If a family can manage to gain confidence in natural learning, they might be willing to wait until even a "very dyslexic" person figures reading out in his or her own way.
The mom who left her question at an old Psychology Today article could (and might) find unschooling discussions and ask there/here. There are links in those comments there (which are lengthy and hard to wade through).
We aren't responsible for hunting down everyone who has questions anywhere. I feel responsible for the focus and clarity of Always Learning, though, and I don't recommend "trying programs" or labelling children as dyslexic. It puts the brakes on deschooling and it will prevent the child from the inestimable joy of learning to read without having been first labelled a non-reader.
http://sandradodd.com/r/deeper
Sandra
____________________________________________________________
Claire wrote:
-=-By coincidence Tiffany at Freeplaylife just posted about her younger daughter being very dyslexic, and about how they are trying an Orton-Gillingham program to help her learn to read. I've posted this at Psychology Today.-=-
Someone wrote to me on the side, and I'll let the comment through without a name. The point isn't to be critical of the blogger, but to keep this discussion clearly on topic.
__________________
I really dislike this blog that was recommended on the list. |I am not sure if I should say something . I am afraid I will sound petty and negative. Many people like it but I really do not as an unschooling blog at all.
_______________
I think sending that comment (Claire's) to Psychology Today is fine.
Leaving it here as a good idea for unschoolers is less fine. :-)
I don't know how young the mentioned younger daughter is, or whether she was ever in school, but if a family's priorities and principles are to try to keep their kids "on track" with school schedules they are more likely to want to push a kid than not. If a family can manage to gain confidence in natural learning, they might be willing to wait until even a "very dyslexic" person figures reading out in his or her own way.
The mom who left her question at an old Psychology Today article could (and might) find unschooling discussions and ask there/here. There are links in those comments there (which are lengthy and hard to wade through).
We aren't responsible for hunting down everyone who has questions anywhere. I feel responsible for the focus and clarity of Always Learning, though, and I don't recommend "trying programs" or labelling children as dyslexic. It puts the brakes on deschooling and it will prevent the child from the inestimable joy of learning to read without having been first labelled a non-reader.
http://sandradodd.com/r/deeper
Sandra
Frantz Family
I bought a game for my children and my eldest daughter undertook the
task of figuring out how to play. It is a fairly complex game and had a
booklet for directions. After working on setting up the game for a good
hour she said, "If someone wants to learn reading comprehension all she
needs to do is read game instructions and try to explain them to her
sisters."
I laughed and agreed with her. She didn't realize though that it was
calming for me to hear that. I had been starting to stress a bit again
about the lack of fluency in reading for my 8 year old. She isn't
reading as many story books as her older sisters did at this age but she
is reading instructions on the computer for the games she plays,
projects she does, and notes she receives from friends.
This is probably an obvious example to most on this list but it was
perfect timing for me.
Margo
task of figuring out how to play. It is a fairly complex game and had a
booklet for directions. After working on setting up the game for a good
hour she said, "If someone wants to learn reading comprehension all she
needs to do is read game instructions and try to explain them to her
sisters."
I laughed and agreed with her. She didn't realize though that it was
calming for me to hear that. I had been starting to stress a bit again
about the lack of fluency in reading for my 8 year old. She isn't
reading as many story books as her older sisters did at this age but she
is reading instructions on the computer for the games she plays,
projects she does, and notes she receives from friends.
This is probably an obvious example to most on this list but it was
perfect timing for me.
Margo
Sandra Dodd
-=-She isn't
reading as many story books as her older sisters did at this age but she
is reading instructions on the computer for the games she plays,
projects she does, and notes she receives from friends.-=-
Story books are valuable in school, as escape, and to "get credit."
The stories are rarely as good as what's easily available elsewhere, since the late 20th century and easy access to video.
Reading, understanding and explaining gaming instructions is like preparation for law school. :-)
Kirby worked at a gaming store from the time he was 14, and volunteered there earlier. The stores policy was "We teach the games we sell." Kirby was around people explaining the rules to board games and collectible card games and picked up and honed his skill in that.
Today, 12 years later, he teaches people how to understand the rules of World of Warcraft well enough to help players inside the game, and they also all need to "understand the rules) of the legal liability and company policies in addition to that. And Kirby understands the rules of the management of groups of people doing shift work for a large corporation.
Then there's map reading. Map reading and storybooks aren't connected, but games have maps, or at least a spatial element. Checkers, Settlers of Catan, Trans Europe, Eureka (just to name some games I can see from here) have movement over space, with changes happening on each turn. A dynamic map. Video games are often dynamic maps. The player moves, makes decisions, and the maps change.
Marty has been working for Target for a while now, stocking shelves early in the morning. 4:00 a.m. sometimes, or 4:30, or 5:00--depends on the size of shipment that's coming in. It's been part time, and the rarely has two days off in a row. Today he found out he's being seriously considered for a promotion, to be the guy who puts labels on the shelves so the stockers know where to put things. This is a dynamic mapping situation, too. The store changes seasonally, and by promotions and "back to school" and such. Christmas sales take up a large part of the store right now, and those will all come down quickly. The decisions of where things go aren't made in the store. They get a map. Marty is GREAT at reading maps, thanks to a lifetime of video games, board games, collectible card games, playing on the internet with mapquest and google maps and Google Earth, of road maps and exploring in his jeep.
We could have said "no games, no driving aimless around central New Mexico; you STUDY." But there is not, was not, will not be anything that was better preparation for the job he's probably about to start doing after Christmas.
Kirby learned to read maps from a player's guide for the original Mario game. It showed, page after page, what all those right-scrolling screens would lead to. Marty never loved player's guides; he preferred to figure it out on his own as he went.
Parents don't know what their children will need to know in the future.
Unschoolers start to realize that they don't know.
Don't worry about what your children can't do yet.
Learn to see what they CAN do. :-)
Incredible things can happen.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
reading as many story books as her older sisters did at this age but she
is reading instructions on the computer for the games she plays,
projects she does, and notes she receives from friends.-=-
Story books are valuable in school, as escape, and to "get credit."
The stories are rarely as good as what's easily available elsewhere, since the late 20th century and easy access to video.
Reading, understanding and explaining gaming instructions is like preparation for law school. :-)
Kirby worked at a gaming store from the time he was 14, and volunteered there earlier. The stores policy was "We teach the games we sell." Kirby was around people explaining the rules to board games and collectible card games and picked up and honed his skill in that.
Today, 12 years later, he teaches people how to understand the rules of World of Warcraft well enough to help players inside the game, and they also all need to "understand the rules) of the legal liability and company policies in addition to that. And Kirby understands the rules of the management of groups of people doing shift work for a large corporation.
Then there's map reading. Map reading and storybooks aren't connected, but games have maps, or at least a spatial element. Checkers, Settlers of Catan, Trans Europe, Eureka (just to name some games I can see from here) have movement over space, with changes happening on each turn. A dynamic map. Video games are often dynamic maps. The player moves, makes decisions, and the maps change.
Marty has been working for Target for a while now, stocking shelves early in the morning. 4:00 a.m. sometimes, or 4:30, or 5:00--depends on the size of shipment that's coming in. It's been part time, and the rarely has two days off in a row. Today he found out he's being seriously considered for a promotion, to be the guy who puts labels on the shelves so the stockers know where to put things. This is a dynamic mapping situation, too. The store changes seasonally, and by promotions and "back to school" and such. Christmas sales take up a large part of the store right now, and those will all come down quickly. The decisions of where things go aren't made in the store. They get a map. Marty is GREAT at reading maps, thanks to a lifetime of video games, board games, collectible card games, playing on the internet with mapquest and google maps and Google Earth, of road maps and exploring in his jeep.
We could have said "no games, no driving aimless around central New Mexico; you STUDY." But there is not, was not, will not be anything that was better preparation for the job he's probably about to start doing after Christmas.
Kirby learned to read maps from a player's guide for the original Mario game. It showed, page after page, what all those right-scrolling screens would lead to. Marty never loved player's guides; he preferred to figure it out on his own as he went.
Parents don't know what their children will need to know in the future.
Unschoolers start to realize that they don't know.
Don't worry about what your children can't do yet.
Learn to see what they CAN do. :-)
Incredible things can happen.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
I did go and make a reply. I hope it helps. There are a ton of doctors and
literacy experts over there all suggesting ever more reading programs and
diagnoses, despite the prior info from Dr. Gray and Sandra in the original
comment thread.
Folks, don't let me be the lone voice in the wilderness over there for
actually trusting natural learning. This poor lady and her son.
--
Robyn L. Coburn
Iggy Jingles Crafts <http://www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com>
Design Team www.ScraPerfect.com
www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
literacy experts over there all suggesting ever more reading programs and
diagnoses, despite the prior info from Dr. Gray and Sandra in the original
comment thread.
Folks, don't let me be the lone voice in the wilderness over there for
actually trusting natural learning. This poor lady and her son.
--
Robyn L. Coburn
Iggy Jingles Crafts <http://www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com>
Design Team www.ScraPerfect.com
www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 4, 2012, at 1:33 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Parents don't know what their children will need to know in the future.Most parents look at the corporate world they know right now and assume that's the world their kids need prepared for. But 10 years -- maybe less -- those kids will be in management. They'll be the ones deciding about that world, steering it, shaping it. They'll see the world through they eyes of video game players, texters, app downloaders, kids who've had instant access to movies as well as answers to what they want to know, stored what they own in the Cloud. That's the knowledge they will use to shape the world. Parents who keep their kids away from technology handicap them. Their kids will be more oriented to the way things are done in the 20th century -- or 19th! -- than the 21st. ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I'm working on Just Add Light and Stir, trying to get posts set up in advance so I don't have to worry about it during the symposium.
I came across this, which hadn't been used there:
Because my children learned to read without having been taught, they have no doubt whatsoever that they could learn anything else. Few things are as important or as complex as reading, yet they figured it out and enjoyed doing it. If I thought I had taught them, they too would think I taught them, and they would be waiting for me to teach them something else.
http://sandradodd.com/thoughts
=================
I know a few people from here are posting at the psychology today blog. That's fine, but people will be resistent there because they're trying to protect their fears. We can't help everyone, and we don't need to go door to door (or even blog to blog) about this. I do wish everyone felt they had the option to be soft and peaceful with their children. I'm glad so many people who read here have tried that and found it helpful.
Sandra
I came across this, which hadn't been used there:
Because my children learned to read without having been taught, they have no doubt whatsoever that they could learn anything else. Few things are as important or as complex as reading, yet they figured it out and enjoyed doing it. If I thought I had taught them, they too would think I taught them, and they would be waiting for me to teach them something else.
http://sandradodd.com/thoughts
=================
I know a few people from here are posting at the psychology today blog. That's fine, but people will be resistent there because they're trying to protect their fears. We can't help everyone, and we don't need to go door to door (or even blog to blog) about this. I do wish everyone felt they had the option to be soft and peaceful with their children. I'm glad so many people who read here have tried that and found it helpful.
Sandra