This discussion, and its anniversary
Sandra Dodd
I meant to mention the anniversary of the Always Learning list when it came around, which was last Saturday. I had posted in advance to my blog, but didn't notice it. Still, it happened. Always Learning is eleven years old, working into its twelfth year.
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2012/11/always-learning-11-years-of-discussions.html
Below is something written by Joyce about the Unschooling Discussion list (owned by Joyce Fetteroll, Pam Sorooshian and me--an older discussion that's now gone quiet). The difference between those two discussions was that one was pre-existing and continued under new management, and the other was a reactionay new list (eleven years ago) that was solely owned by me, and everyone who joined joined knowing that's what it would be. The three-owner group was (by owner vote) to be kept peaceful. I didn't mind argument and negativity as much as Joyce and Pam did, and they figured arguments could be allowed to play out on Always Learning (where they were and still are, eleven years later) moderators. The philosophies and method of discussing them was the same in both places, because we've seen it work for hundreds now, and not work for dozens. Some people get too angry when questioned. Some relax into it and really think about what they're doing, saying, and writing.
If you prefer formatted webpages to e-mail, it's here: http://sandradodd.com/lists/beliefs.html
BELIEFS
and when it matters what people believe,
for the purposes of the Unschooling Discussion list
[STARS*** were from someone else on the list. Other paragraphs are Joyce Fetteroll's response.]
***Overall, to each their own. If being a trekkie (and whatever that may encompass) floats a persons boat, then cool by me. It's about them and not about me.***
When a belief is brought to an unschooling discussion list that would make it more difficult for someone to get unschooling, then it's helpful to some who are trying to get unschooling for the list to hold those beliefs up and examine the ramifications. That's what the list is for.
Our beliefs, as Pam succinctly put it (but I can't find it now) and I took a huge post saying ;-) are what we use to decide what are good and bad choices. Part of the purpose of the list is to help people figure out how to make the choices that will get them to unschooling and more joyful lives with their families. And part of that process is examining the beliefs people are using to filter their choices.
But even on a larger scale, do you really mean "whatever floats a person's boat"? So if I hear voices from God that tell me to murder people, that's "cool" by you? If my beliefs lead me to believe that it's a mandate from God that I swat my children for sinful behavior with an appropriately sized dowel chosen from a chart by age, then that's cool too?
***"Mom, is there a wrong way to believe? And how do you know when you are right?" My explanation to them was, "Well, to me there is no wrong about faith/philosophy/religion/beliefs.***
Which sounds really pretty. What I assume you mean is that you are raising your daughters in a moral atmosphere where murdering, stealing and generally being hurtful are not good options. So, as long as their spirituality doesn't cross those moral lines, then whatever they believe is cool with you. Yes?
Some of people will look at what you said and what I said and think "Well, *obviously* that's what she meant. And it's nitpicky to even question it."
On a list where the only tool we have to get our ideas across are the words we use, those words are very important. If we were talking about things we were all well familiar with, like how to nurse a baby, then we could rely on people filling in the gaps of where our words weren't quite right. But the list isn't about familiar things. It's very often about ideas that many people have never contemplated before. So the words we use need to accurately convey what we're thinking.
So, I definitely disagree and say there are wrong ways to believe—wrong for helping people get to unschooling, and wrong for a peaceful society of differing beliefs. There are very definitely beliefs that won't help people get where they want to go. There are ways that will turn people around from where they want to go.
This list is about getting to unschooling so signing onto the list is implying where someone wants to get is unschooling. (Or to at least listen in and absorb some of the process of those who are getting there for those who want to pick and choose.)
This list tries to help people see the ways of viewing the world that *will* help them get where they imply they'd like to go by joining an unschooling discussion list.
Joyce
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2012/11/always-learning-11-years-of-discussions.html
Below is something written by Joyce about the Unschooling Discussion list (owned by Joyce Fetteroll, Pam Sorooshian and me--an older discussion that's now gone quiet). The difference between those two discussions was that one was pre-existing and continued under new management, and the other was a reactionay new list (eleven years ago) that was solely owned by me, and everyone who joined joined knowing that's what it would be. The three-owner group was (by owner vote) to be kept peaceful. I didn't mind argument and negativity as much as Joyce and Pam did, and they figured arguments could be allowed to play out on Always Learning (where they were and still are, eleven years later) moderators. The philosophies and method of discussing them was the same in both places, because we've seen it work for hundreds now, and not work for dozens. Some people get too angry when questioned. Some relax into it and really think about what they're doing, saying, and writing.
If you prefer formatted webpages to e-mail, it's here: http://sandradodd.com/lists/beliefs.html
BELIEFS
and when it matters what people believe,
for the purposes of the Unschooling Discussion list
[STARS*** were from someone else on the list. Other paragraphs are Joyce Fetteroll's response.]
***Overall, to each their own. If being a trekkie (and whatever that may encompass) floats a persons boat, then cool by me. It's about them and not about me.***
When a belief is brought to an unschooling discussion list that would make it more difficult for someone to get unschooling, then it's helpful to some who are trying to get unschooling for the list to hold those beliefs up and examine the ramifications. That's what the list is for.
Our beliefs, as Pam succinctly put it (but I can't find it now) and I took a huge post saying ;-) are what we use to decide what are good and bad choices. Part of the purpose of the list is to help people figure out how to make the choices that will get them to unschooling and more joyful lives with their families. And part of that process is examining the beliefs people are using to filter their choices.
But even on a larger scale, do you really mean "whatever floats a person's boat"? So if I hear voices from God that tell me to murder people, that's "cool" by you? If my beliefs lead me to believe that it's a mandate from God that I swat my children for sinful behavior with an appropriately sized dowel chosen from a chart by age, then that's cool too?
***"Mom, is there a wrong way to believe? And how do you know when you are right?" My explanation to them was, "Well, to me there is no wrong about faith/philosophy/religion/beliefs.***
Which sounds really pretty. What I assume you mean is that you are raising your daughters in a moral atmosphere where murdering, stealing and generally being hurtful are not good options. So, as long as their spirituality doesn't cross those moral lines, then whatever they believe is cool with you. Yes?
Some of people will look at what you said and what I said and think "Well, *obviously* that's what she meant. And it's nitpicky to even question it."
On a list where the only tool we have to get our ideas across are the words we use, those words are very important. If we were talking about things we were all well familiar with, like how to nurse a baby, then we could rely on people filling in the gaps of where our words weren't quite right. But the list isn't about familiar things. It's very often about ideas that many people have never contemplated before. So the words we use need to accurately convey what we're thinking.
So, I definitely disagree and say there are wrong ways to believe—wrong for helping people get to unschooling, and wrong for a peaceful society of differing beliefs. There are very definitely beliefs that won't help people get where they want to go. There are ways that will turn people around from where they want to go.
This list is about getting to unschooling so signing onto the list is implying where someone wants to get is unschooling. (Or to at least listen in and absorb some of the process of those who are getting there for those who want to pick and choose.)
This list tries to help people see the ways of viewing the world that *will* help them get where they imply they'd like to go by joining an unschooling discussion list.
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
Earlier this year, in this discussion, Rippy Dusseldorp wrote something very interesting about the value of the feedback here. She was responding to something Pam Sorooshian had written. I'll put the links of the full responses below. Part of Pam's and all of Rippy's are here:
Pam Sorooshian wrote:
I don't know of anywhere else outside of a therapeutic relationship where
you can get this kind of direct, critical, and honest feedback. Over the
years, I have very often been amazed at the insights expressed here. I have
sometimes reacted emotionally and felt something was harshly said, and I
have felt defensive, but it is worth it to take the risk and learn to get
over it. I have learned SO much about myself and relationships and
parenting and, really, about living, through the interactions here.
Rippy:
While I was growing up, I used to get this type of feedback when my family went
to 'sangat' - small fellowships in the Sikh faith where in part people learn
about living with kindness and integrity. Sikhism believes that we are all on a
path to reunite with the source (God) and for this to happen, you need to become
kinder and more compassionate. "Direct, critical, and honest feedback" was
highly valued and appreciated.
My family used to regularly travel to India to a Sikh ashram where we were
encouraged to examine our thoughts and words. The philosophy there was that
helping one another grow into more loving, mindful people is one of the greatest
acts of service one can do. Some of the most valuable skills that I learned in
life and use every day were learned in the fellowship and ashram.
I was frequently reminded that 'thoughts become words, words become actions,
actions become habits, habits become your character and your character becomes
your destiny'. My dad was gifted at helping me be more thoughtful with my words
and actions, and make better choices. He was the kindest person I knew.
This list is especially dear to me because my dad passed away before I had
children. Often when I read here, I realize the advice is probably similar to
something my dad would have suggested. Reading here makes me feel closer to him.
For me, Always Learning feels like my fellowship.
Rippy
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/66414
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/66419
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian wrote:
I don't know of anywhere else outside of a therapeutic relationship where
you can get this kind of direct, critical, and honest feedback. Over the
years, I have very often been amazed at the insights expressed here. I have
sometimes reacted emotionally and felt something was harshly said, and I
have felt defensive, but it is worth it to take the risk and learn to get
over it. I have learned SO much about myself and relationships and
parenting and, really, about living, through the interactions here.
Rippy:
While I was growing up, I used to get this type of feedback when my family went
to 'sangat' - small fellowships in the Sikh faith where in part people learn
about living with kindness and integrity. Sikhism believes that we are all on a
path to reunite with the source (God) and for this to happen, you need to become
kinder and more compassionate. "Direct, critical, and honest feedback" was
highly valued and appreciated.
My family used to regularly travel to India to a Sikh ashram where we were
encouraged to examine our thoughts and words. The philosophy there was that
helping one another grow into more loving, mindful people is one of the greatest
acts of service one can do. Some of the most valuable skills that I learned in
life and use every day were learned in the fellowship and ashram.
I was frequently reminded that 'thoughts become words, words become actions,
actions become habits, habits become your character and your character becomes
your destiny'. My dad was gifted at helping me be more thoughtful with my words
and actions, and make better choices. He was the kindest person I knew.
This list is especially dear to me because my dad passed away before I had
children. Often when I read here, I realize the advice is probably similar to
something my dad would have suggested. Reading here makes me feel closer to him.
For me, Always Learning feels like my fellowship.
Rippy
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/66414
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/66419
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marta Pires
-=-Pam Sorooshian wrote:
I don't know of anywhere else outside of a therapeutic relationship where
you can get this kind of direct, critical, and honest feedback. Over the
years, I have very often been amazed at the insights expressed here. I have
sometimes reacted emotionally and felt something was harshly said, and I
have felt defensive, but it is worth it to take the risk and learn to get
over it. I have learned SO much about myself and relationships and
parenting and, really, about living, through the interactions here.-=-
I have a psychology/family therapy degree (having clinically practiced for
some time) and I was in therapy (cognitive-behavioural therapy) as a client
for five years, some years ago (from my mid-twenties up until my
thirty-something's). As a psychologist and as a client, I very much
believed and accepted the common therapeutic approach to people's issues,
but I have to say that I'm not so sure about it's effectiveness anymore. I
know I don't have all the answers yet, as I'm still learning and at the
beginning of this journey (not even remotely as experienced as some of the
awesome moms who write here), but still, not sure...
First of all, five years of therapy didn't come close to all that has
happened to me from reading and thinking daily about everything that is
discussed on this list, in terms of personal growth. As Pam said, not only
have I learned tons about unschooling and life-learning, but I've also been
learning about relationships, about parenting, and ultimately about myself
-- everything seems to come hand in hand! ;)
I'm a much happier person, more balanced, more thoughtful, calmer (not on a
regular basis, I certainly still have my moments, as my husband can attest
(ha!), but I'm working hard to do better every day, bit by bit). I try to
be a sweet and joyful mom to my daughter, a thoughtful and loving wife to
my husband, and a kind and attentive owner to my cats (just recently, by
taking the time to really look at them, I found out that one of our cats,
who I thought hated being petted, loves it... while she's eating!). I crave
attention less and less. I crave people's approval less and less, to the
point that I think I don't even need it anymore. :P I've dealt with
problems in a totally different and new (to me!) way, in a more positive
and confident way. I'm more secure of myself. I hardly ever feel anxious
anymore. I stress less. I let go more. I've matured in ways I never thought
possible. I see my parents differently, I understand them better now. I
feel more empowered. I'm much more aware of when I'm reacting out of
tiredness, or hunger, or hormones, or whatever, and I usually try to go
take care of whatever I need to collect myself again, or simply just get
out of the picture so I won't hurt anyone. I'm much more creative in
problem-solving. I shut up when something unkind will probably come out of
my mouth, or something that won't lead to a more peaceful moment. Not all
the time, but a LOT more than I used to. I wake up with a smile on my face
every single day. I feel a tremendous amount of peace in my life. Wow, just
wow, as you can see, you guys beat the c*** out of my therapist, no doubt
about it!
Secondly, a few years ago, before my daughter was even born, I recommended
my therapist to a friend's wife. I trusted my therapist, thought she was
the best. Well, my friend and his wife split up in January this year. They
have a twelve year old son and had been together for almost twenty years.
She's off with a new boyfriend, but with so many things still to be worked
out inside herself (I know, I was a lot like her). I feel like apologizing
to my friend now... Of course I don't know the details of everything that
happened, but I do know that, had she been advised in another direction
(other than "listen to your heart" or "listen to what you need", "focus on
yourself now", which is what I'm guessing she was told), maybe they would
still be together. From reading on this list and Sandra's site and book and
the chats and thinking about all this on a daily basis, plus from my own
personal experience already, what I do know now is that people can turn
their lives around, they can turn their relationships around.
So, not even in most therapeutical relationships can a person find what
I've found here, I'd say. There are tons of so-called experts out there
that seem to not have a clue about how human beings work on so many levels!
Plus, where can you find free therapeutical relationships that can take
place on a daily basis?
I think this list and the work and dedication of such wonderful women like
Sandra, Pam, Joyce, Schuyler, Brie, Meredith, Alex, Jenny, Robin, just to
name a few, are priceless. I feel so blessed to have found it, to have
found all of you. I'll be forever grateful for what you do, it's
life-changing and world-changing, one family at a time.
Thank you Sandra, for dedicating yourself the way you do. You are such a
special person. I'd also like to thank the moderators of the list for
keeping it so solid, so grounded -- if it weren't for you, how could we be
sure that what was being said here would lead us to more joyful and
peaceful lives with our kids, with our partners, with ourselves? In my
opinion, your hard work is what gives credibility to the information
that is shared here. It was what it took to convince me to try what you
were advising! Thank you to everyone who kindly and generously contributes
to this list, with your insights of how things happened for you, I don't
know if you can imagine how important it has been in our lives. You guys
totally rock my world. :)))
Oh, and Happy (belated) Birthday, Always Learning! So glad you were born!!!
Marta
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't know of anywhere else outside of a therapeutic relationship where
you can get this kind of direct, critical, and honest feedback. Over the
years, I have very often been amazed at the insights expressed here. I have
sometimes reacted emotionally and felt something was harshly said, and I
have felt defensive, but it is worth it to take the risk and learn to get
over it. I have learned SO much about myself and relationships and
parenting and, really, about living, through the interactions here.-=-
I have a psychology/family therapy degree (having clinically practiced for
some time) and I was in therapy (cognitive-behavioural therapy) as a client
for five years, some years ago (from my mid-twenties up until my
thirty-something's). As a psychologist and as a client, I very much
believed and accepted the common therapeutic approach to people's issues,
but I have to say that I'm not so sure about it's effectiveness anymore. I
know I don't have all the answers yet, as I'm still learning and at the
beginning of this journey (not even remotely as experienced as some of the
awesome moms who write here), but still, not sure...
First of all, five years of therapy didn't come close to all that has
happened to me from reading and thinking daily about everything that is
discussed on this list, in terms of personal growth. As Pam said, not only
have I learned tons about unschooling and life-learning, but I've also been
learning about relationships, about parenting, and ultimately about myself
-- everything seems to come hand in hand! ;)
I'm a much happier person, more balanced, more thoughtful, calmer (not on a
regular basis, I certainly still have my moments, as my husband can attest
(ha!), but I'm working hard to do better every day, bit by bit). I try to
be a sweet and joyful mom to my daughter, a thoughtful and loving wife to
my husband, and a kind and attentive owner to my cats (just recently, by
taking the time to really look at them, I found out that one of our cats,
who I thought hated being petted, loves it... while she's eating!). I crave
attention less and less. I crave people's approval less and less, to the
point that I think I don't even need it anymore. :P I've dealt with
problems in a totally different and new (to me!) way, in a more positive
and confident way. I'm more secure of myself. I hardly ever feel anxious
anymore. I stress less. I let go more. I've matured in ways I never thought
possible. I see my parents differently, I understand them better now. I
feel more empowered. I'm much more aware of when I'm reacting out of
tiredness, or hunger, or hormones, or whatever, and I usually try to go
take care of whatever I need to collect myself again, or simply just get
out of the picture so I won't hurt anyone. I'm much more creative in
problem-solving. I shut up when something unkind will probably come out of
my mouth, or something that won't lead to a more peaceful moment. Not all
the time, but a LOT more than I used to. I wake up with a smile on my face
every single day. I feel a tremendous amount of peace in my life. Wow, just
wow, as you can see, you guys beat the c*** out of my therapist, no doubt
about it!
Secondly, a few years ago, before my daughter was even born, I recommended
my therapist to a friend's wife. I trusted my therapist, thought she was
the best. Well, my friend and his wife split up in January this year. They
have a twelve year old son and had been together for almost twenty years.
She's off with a new boyfriend, but with so many things still to be worked
out inside herself (I know, I was a lot like her). I feel like apologizing
to my friend now... Of course I don't know the details of everything that
happened, but I do know that, had she been advised in another direction
(other than "listen to your heart" or "listen to what you need", "focus on
yourself now", which is what I'm guessing she was told), maybe they would
still be together. From reading on this list and Sandra's site and book and
the chats and thinking about all this on a daily basis, plus from my own
personal experience already, what I do know now is that people can turn
their lives around, they can turn their relationships around.
So, not even in most therapeutical relationships can a person find what
I've found here, I'd say. There are tons of so-called experts out there
that seem to not have a clue about how human beings work on so many levels!
Plus, where can you find free therapeutical relationships that can take
place on a daily basis?
I think this list and the work and dedication of such wonderful women like
Sandra, Pam, Joyce, Schuyler, Brie, Meredith, Alex, Jenny, Robin, just to
name a few, are priceless. I feel so blessed to have found it, to have
found all of you. I'll be forever grateful for what you do, it's
life-changing and world-changing, one family at a time.
Thank you Sandra, for dedicating yourself the way you do. You are such a
special person. I'd also like to thank the moderators of the list for
keeping it so solid, so grounded -- if it weren't for you, how could we be
sure that what was being said here would lead us to more joyful and
peaceful lives with our kids, with our partners, with ourselves? In my
opinion, your hard work is what gives credibility to the information
that is shared here. It was what it took to convince me to try what you
were advising! Thank you to everyone who kindly and generously contributes
to this list, with your insights of how things happened for you, I don't
know if you can imagine how important it has been in our lives. You guys
totally rock my world. :)))
Oh, and Happy (belated) Birthday, Always Learning! So glad you were born!!!
Marta
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Marta Pires <martaborgespires@...> wrote:
>Where's the "Like" button?
> -=-Pam Sorooshian wrote:
>
> I don't know of anywhere else outside of a therapeutic relationship where
> you can get this kind of direct, critical, and honest feedback. Over the
> years, I have very often been amazed at the insights expressed here. I have
> sometimes reacted emotionally and felt something was harshly said, and I
> have felt defensive, but it is worth it to take the risk and learn to get
> over it. I have learned SO much about myself and relationships and
> parenting and, really, about living, through the interactions here.-=-
>
> I have a psychology/family therapy degree (having clinically practiced for
> some time) and I was in therapy (cognitive-behavioural therapy) as a client
> for five years, some years ago (from my mid-twenties up until my
> thirty-something's). As a psychologist and as a client, I very much
> believed and accepted the common therapeutic approach to people's issues,
> but I have to say that I'm not so sure about it's effectiveness anymore. I
> know I don't have all the answers yet, as I'm still learning and at the
> beginning of this journey (not even remotely as experienced as some of the
> awesome moms who write here), but still, not sure...
>
> First of all, five years of therapy didn't come close to all that has
> happened to me from reading and thinking daily about everything that is
> discussed on this list, in terms of personal growth. As Pam said, not only
> have I learned tons about unschooling and life-learning, but I've also been
> learning about relationships, about parenting, and ultimately about myself
> -- everything seems to come hand in hand! ;)
>
> I'm a much happier person, more balanced, more thoughtful, calmer (not on a
> regular basis, I certainly still have my moments, as my husband can attest
> (ha!), but I'm working hard to do better every day, bit by bit). I try to
> be a sweet and joyful mom to my daughter, a thoughtful and loving wife to
> my husband, and a kind and attentive owner to my cats (just recently, by
> taking the time to really look at them, I found out that one of our cats,
> who I thought hated being petted, loves it... while she's eating!). I crave
> attention less and less. I crave people's approval less and less, to the
> point that I think I don't even need it anymore. :P I've dealt with
> problems in a totally different and new (to me!) way, in a more positive
> and confident way. I'm more secure of myself. I hardly ever feel anxious
> anymore. I stress less. I let go more. I've matured in ways I never thought
> possible. I see my parents differently, I understand them better now. I
> feel more empowered. I'm much more aware of when I'm reacting out of
> tiredness, or hunger, or hormones, or whatever, and I usually try to go
> take care of whatever I need to collect myself again, or simply just get
> out of the picture so I won't hurt anyone. I'm much more creative in
> problem-solving. I shut up when something unkind will probably come out of
> my mouth, or something that won't lead to a more peaceful moment. Not all
> the time, but a LOT more than I used to. I wake up with a smile on my face
> every single day. I feel a tremendous amount of peace in my life. Wow, just
> wow, as you can see, you guys beat the c*** out of my therapist, no doubt
> about it!
>
> Secondly, a few years ago, before my daughter was even born, I recommended
> my therapist to a friend's wife. I trusted my therapist, thought she was
> the best. Well, my friend and his wife split up in January this year. They
> have a twelve year old son and had been together for almost twenty years.
> She's off with a new boyfriend, but with so many things still to be worked
> out inside herself (I know, I was a lot like her). I feel like apologizing
> to my friend now... Of course I don't know the details of everything that
> happened, but I do know that, had she been advised in another direction
> (other than "listen to your heart" or "listen to what you need", "focus on
> yourself now", which is what I'm guessing she was told), maybe they would
> still be together. From reading on this list and Sandra's site and book and
> the chats and thinking about all this on a daily basis, plus from my own
> personal experience already, what I do know now is that people can turn
> their lives around, they can turn their relationships around.
>
> So, not even in most therapeutical relationships can a person find what
> I've found here, I'd say. There are tons of so-called experts out there
> that seem to not have a clue about how human beings work on so many levels!
> Plus, where can you find free therapeutical relationships that can take
> place on a daily basis?
>
> I think this list and the work and dedication of such wonderful women like
> Sandra, Pam, Joyce, Schuyler, Brie, Meredith, Alex, Jenny, Robin, just to
> name a few, are priceless. I feel so blessed to have found it, to have
> found all of you. I'll be forever grateful for what you do, it's
> life-changing and world-changing, one family at a time.
>
> Thank you Sandra, for dedicating yourself the way you do. You are such a
> special person. I'd also like to thank the moderators of the list for
> keeping it so solid, so grounded -- if it weren't for you, how could we be
> sure that what was being said here would lead us to more joyful and
> peaceful lives with our kids, with our partners, with ourselves? In my
> opinion, your hard work is what gives credibility to the information
> that is shared here. It was what it took to convince me to try what you
> were advising! Thank you to everyone who kindly and generously contributes
> to this list, with your insights of how things happened for you, I don't
> know if you can imagine how important it has been in our lives. You guys
> totally rock my world. :)))
>
> Oh, and Happy (belated) Birthday, Always Learning! So glad you were born!!!
>
> Marta
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
alma
Pam Sorooshian wrote:
I have been practicing Buddhist meditation at a centre near me for two years now. The teachers there are from a Dzogchen lineage which supports a transformative approach to Buddhism rather than the usual (in the West) renunciative.
Some have been curious why I have not chosen to "take refuge", which is a little ceremony to declare that you trust that the dharma (Buddhist teachings) are your "bottom line" in how you choose to live your life. Most people who stick around the centre do so after a few months. Well, for me, I have a second, secular, bottom line, and that is the wisdom of this list.
In fact, the two are telling the same truths. I was in a class the other night. First there were quotes from the Song of the Owl Headed Dakini (http://arobuddhism.org/retreats/the-song-of-the-owl-headed-dakini.html - a Dzogchen interpreatation of the five precepts for anyone interested). Then there was some discussion around the Buddhist philosophy, and finally the nitty gritty of what this means in everyday life. At that point I recognised, as so often, the voices from this list Sandra, Meredith, Pam etc.
At the heart of Dzogchen Buddhism is the experiential knowledge of the non-duality of emptiness and form, and their constant exquisite interplay through energy. Emptiness can be experienced through wisdom and form through active compassion. In everyday parlance these are recognised as awareness and kindness. And where do I hear these concepts discussed on a daily basis? Here of course!
That's why I do not take refuge exclusively in the teachings of the Buddha, because I see the teachings there, and on this list, to be beautifully complimentary. This list supports my growth as a person in exactly the same direction as my meditation practice does.
Thank you Sandra, and everyone, for your continued wisdom, helping me be the best I can.
Alison
DS1(10) and DS2(7)
>******************
> I don't know of anywhere else outside of a therapeutic relationship where
> you can get this kind of direct, critical, and honest feedback. Over the
> years, I have very often been amazed at the insights expressed here.
I have been practicing Buddhist meditation at a centre near me for two years now. The teachers there are from a Dzogchen lineage which supports a transformative approach to Buddhism rather than the usual (in the West) renunciative.
Some have been curious why I have not chosen to "take refuge", which is a little ceremony to declare that you trust that the dharma (Buddhist teachings) are your "bottom line" in how you choose to live your life. Most people who stick around the centre do so after a few months. Well, for me, I have a second, secular, bottom line, and that is the wisdom of this list.
In fact, the two are telling the same truths. I was in a class the other night. First there were quotes from the Song of the Owl Headed Dakini (http://arobuddhism.org/retreats/the-song-of-the-owl-headed-dakini.html - a Dzogchen interpreatation of the five precepts for anyone interested). Then there was some discussion around the Buddhist philosophy, and finally the nitty gritty of what this means in everyday life. At that point I recognised, as so often, the voices from this list Sandra, Meredith, Pam etc.
At the heart of Dzogchen Buddhism is the experiential knowledge of the non-duality of emptiness and form, and their constant exquisite interplay through energy. Emptiness can be experienced through wisdom and form through active compassion. In everyday parlance these are recognised as awareness and kindness. And where do I hear these concepts discussed on a daily basis? Here of course!
That's why I do not take refuge exclusively in the teachings of the Buddha, because I see the teachings there, and on this list, to be beautifully complimentary. This list supports my growth as a person in exactly the same direction as my meditation practice does.
Thank you Sandra, and everyone, for your continued wisdom, helping me be the best I can.
Alison
DS1(10) and DS2(7)
Rippy and Graham Dusseldorp
Alison wrote:
-=- the teachings of the Buddha ... and ... this list, [are] beautifully complimentary. This list supports my growth as a person in exactly the same direction as my meditation practice does. -=-
This is true for me too.
Earlier this year I started a blog called Seeking Nectar. Before I named my blog, I googled 'seeking nectar' to make sure another blog of the same name did not already exist and found this poem:
As a bee seeks nectar
from all kinds of flowers
seek teachings everywhere.
Like a deer that finds a quiet place to graze,
seek seclusion to digest all you have gathered.
Like a lion, live completely free of all fear.
And, finally, like a madman, beyond all limits,
go wherever you please.
- A Tantra of Dzogchen
From the Crystal and the Way of Light: Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen (Tibetan Buddhist Philosophy)
by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
The poem inspired me to describe our unschooling lives in this way on my blog:
To be nourished from beautiful and interesting ideas, people, places and things.
To learn from everywhere.
To take time to reflect.
To be daring.
To have adventures.
---
Happy Anniversary Always Learning!
Rippy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=- the teachings of the Buddha ... and ... this list, [are] beautifully complimentary. This list supports my growth as a person in exactly the same direction as my meditation practice does. -=-
This is true for me too.
Earlier this year I started a blog called Seeking Nectar. Before I named my blog, I googled 'seeking nectar' to make sure another blog of the same name did not already exist and found this poem:
As a bee seeks nectar
from all kinds of flowers
seek teachings everywhere.
Like a deer that finds a quiet place to graze,
seek seclusion to digest all you have gathered.
Like a lion, live completely free of all fear.
And, finally, like a madman, beyond all limits,
go wherever you please.
- A Tantra of Dzogchen
From the Crystal and the Way of Light: Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen (Tibetan Buddhist Philosophy)
by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
The poem inspired me to describe our unschooling lives in this way on my blog:
To be nourished from beautiful and interesting ideas, people, places and things.
To learn from everywhere.
To take time to reflect.
To be daring.
To have adventures.
---
Happy Anniversary Always Learning!
Rippy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]