Unschooling badly
Sandra Dodd
I wrote someting on facebook, which is so much like writing on toilet paper with a wet finger that it sometimes seems a waste of time.
I'm bringing it here, because I feel it strongly. Someone there had written that anyone can unschool. Meredith objected. I was glad she had. Here's what I wrote:
_________________________
There are many people whose fluffy feel-good rhetoric includes "anyone can unschool." The problem with that is that there are eople who think saying "Ok! Then I am an unschooler" is the same as becoming an unschooler. It's not that simple and it's not that easy.
If unschooling is not done well, it's not being done at all.
Anytime a family calls doing nothing "unschooling," or is neglectful and lazy and says "that's because we're unschoolers," it's not good for their family, and it reflects badly on all other unschoolers.
I have no interest in helping other people made bad decisions and get stuck in a place they can't get out of. I AM willing to help other people understand unschooling in ways that help them do it well, and I've been doing that for a long time.
_________________________
It's not that I don't think there's a place for feel-good rhetoric. For me, it's Just Add Light and Stir !
In case there's anyone here who doesn't subscribe to that, it's here:
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
People who make changes in their lives and beliefs in order to focus on their children's peaceful lives of learning become happier.
The people who will NOT become happier are those who think they don't need to change anything, who choose NOT to focus on learning, because they vaguely think someone said that kids learn all the time, so the parents don't need to do anything about that, or who choose not to focus on peaceful lives because they like drama and self-righteous indignation. Those are not things to support or encourage.
It is possible to screw it up. One way to fail to unschool is to think that saying "We're unschoolers" is enough.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm bringing it here, because I feel it strongly. Someone there had written that anyone can unschool. Meredith objected. I was glad she had. Here's what I wrote:
_________________________
There are many people whose fluffy feel-good rhetoric includes "anyone can unschool." The problem with that is that there are eople who think saying "Ok! Then I am an unschooler" is the same as becoming an unschooler. It's not that simple and it's not that easy.
If unschooling is not done well, it's not being done at all.
Anytime a family calls doing nothing "unschooling," or is neglectful and lazy and says "that's because we're unschoolers," it's not good for their family, and it reflects badly on all other unschoolers.
I have no interest in helping other people made bad decisions and get stuck in a place they can't get out of. I AM willing to help other people understand unschooling in ways that help them do it well, and I've been doing that for a long time.
_________________________
It's not that I don't think there's a place for feel-good rhetoric. For me, it's Just Add Light and Stir !
In case there's anyone here who doesn't subscribe to that, it's here:
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
People who make changes in their lives and beliefs in order to focus on their children's peaceful lives of learning become happier.
The people who will NOT become happier are those who think they don't need to change anything, who choose NOT to focus on learning, because they vaguely think someone said that kids learn all the time, so the parents don't need to do anything about that, or who choose not to focus on peaceful lives because they like drama and self-righteous indignation. Those are not things to support or encourage.
It is possible to screw it up. One way to fail to unschool is to think that saying "We're unschoolers" is enough.
Sandra
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Nadine Toppozada
>>If unschooling is not done well, it's not being done at all<<This feels a bit extreme to me. If a task is not done well, is it not
being done at all?
If a job is not done well, is it not being done at all?
Two questions come to mind....
1. "Done well" according to whom? Who is judging whether unschooling is
being done well?
It feels like there is a standard to meet and anything short of that means
nothing is being done at all.
2. Is this what we want to pass on to our children, do it well or you're
not doing anything at all?
Which takes me back to the first question - "well" according to whom?
>>Anytime a family calls doing nothing "unschooling,**" or is neglectfuland lazy and says "that's because we're unschoolers,**" it's not good for
their family, and it reflects badly on all other unschoolers. <<
I agree with the first part, but not with the last >>it reflects badly on
all other unschoolers<<. I think this is an old paradigm where if someone
in a family did something bad, others in the family believed it reflected
badly on the rest of them. Does it? Is it not just someone's individual
choice/action?
Nadine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robert and Colleen
****I agree with the first part, but not with the last >>it reflects badly
on all other unschoolers<<. I think this is an old paradigm where if someone
in a family did something bad, others in the family believed it reflected
badly on the rest of them. Does it? Is it not just someone's individual
choice/action?****
When someone is a member of a minority group, or a subculture, or any sort
of non-mainstream/non-majority grouping, that someone runs into the reality
of the mainstream looking at their individual character and actions as
representative of their sub-group as a whole.
This isn't just an Unschooling Thing - it happens with race, ethnicity,
sexuality, ability/disability, gender, religion, etc. One person of a
subgroup is often assumed by society to represent the entire subgroup, even
though this is in many ways faulty thinking. I am female, but I do not
represent Women with my individual views. However if I'm in a
male-dominated situation I might be looked at that way. My husband is
Cuban, but he does not represent Cubans with his day to day life - he's
simply a person. But if he's in a gathering with no other Cubans, speaking
his mind, those non-Cubans might well think his political views, for
example, are Cuban Views - even though, again, that's not realistic.
Similarly, unschoolers are homeschoolers. Homeschoolers are a
non-mainstream group in that we do not represent the majority in any country
I know of in terms of how we choose to educate our children (at home). When
those who are part of mainstream educational culture look at us, it is
simple to chalk poor behavior or poor social skills or unkempt appearance or
a thousand other things up to the fact that we homeschool. This isn't
necessarily true - when my son doesn't want to take a shower before going
out, it's not because he's a homeschooler :-) But at the same time, the
reality is that if we're going out in public, it's important he be clean so
as *not* to stand as someone to point fingers at as "one of THOSE people."
Not because it's Fair that the world acts that way - but because it's Real.
Similarly, unschoolers behaving poorly in public (being destructive, for
example) can easily be pointed out by the mainstream to be doing that
*because* they are unschoolers. Not necessarily true in each individual
case - but it's something for the mainstream to point out and shake fingers
at. Not necessarily Fair, again - but just Real.
So yes, by being unschoolers, in my opinion, if we identify ourselves as
such and then behave poorly in public, we do reflect poorly on others who
also identify as unschoolers. Not Fair - but Real.
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
on all other unschoolers<<. I think this is an old paradigm where if someone
in a family did something bad, others in the family believed it reflected
badly on the rest of them. Does it? Is it not just someone's individual
choice/action?****
When someone is a member of a minority group, or a subculture, or any sort
of non-mainstream/non-majority grouping, that someone runs into the reality
of the mainstream looking at their individual character and actions as
representative of their sub-group as a whole.
This isn't just an Unschooling Thing - it happens with race, ethnicity,
sexuality, ability/disability, gender, religion, etc. One person of a
subgroup is often assumed by society to represent the entire subgroup, even
though this is in many ways faulty thinking. I am female, but I do not
represent Women with my individual views. However if I'm in a
male-dominated situation I might be looked at that way. My husband is
Cuban, but he does not represent Cubans with his day to day life - he's
simply a person. But if he's in a gathering with no other Cubans, speaking
his mind, those non-Cubans might well think his political views, for
example, are Cuban Views - even though, again, that's not realistic.
Similarly, unschoolers are homeschoolers. Homeschoolers are a
non-mainstream group in that we do not represent the majority in any country
I know of in terms of how we choose to educate our children (at home). When
those who are part of mainstream educational culture look at us, it is
simple to chalk poor behavior or poor social skills or unkempt appearance or
a thousand other things up to the fact that we homeschool. This isn't
necessarily true - when my son doesn't want to take a shower before going
out, it's not because he's a homeschooler :-) But at the same time, the
reality is that if we're going out in public, it's important he be clean so
as *not* to stand as someone to point fingers at as "one of THOSE people."
Not because it's Fair that the world acts that way - but because it's Real.
Similarly, unschoolers behaving poorly in public (being destructive, for
example) can easily be pointed out by the mainstream to be doing that
*because* they are unschoolers. Not necessarily true in each individual
case - but it's something for the mainstream to point out and shake fingers
at. Not necessarily Fair, again - but just Real.
So yes, by being unschoolers, in my opinion, if we identify ourselves as
such and then behave poorly in public, we do reflect poorly on others who
also identify as unschoolers. Not Fair - but Real.
Colleen
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Sandra Dodd
-=>>If unschooling is not done well, it's not being done at all<<
-=-This feels a bit extreme to me. If a task is not done well, is it not
being done at all?
If a job is not done well, is it not being done at all?-=-
It depends on the job.
And it depends what you mean by "being done."
Could you please describe this unschooling that's not done well that you're defending?
Sandra
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-=-This feels a bit extreme to me. If a task is not done well, is it not
being done at all?
If a job is not done well, is it not being done at all?-=-
It depends on the job.
And it depends what you mean by "being done."
Could you please describe this unschooling that's not done well that you're defending?
Sandra
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Meredith
Nadine Toppozada <ntoppozada@...> wrote:
The first families I met who said "we're unschooling" included a 13yo girl who hated her parents and wanted to go to school more than anything, three children under the age of 5 who broke things and hurt people while their moms ignored them to have sex and get stoned, two families who were on the run (whether from some real threat or their own paranoia was never evident), and one fairly together young mother of an infant. There was nothing in those experiences to recommend unschooling to me.
Now, admittedly, I was living in a commune at the time and living in communes you get to meet all sorts of crazy people - mostly in a good way, but still, it's not hard to argue that I had a very, very skewed sample. And it was that fact which eventually led me to look at unschooling more seriously and try to gather some Other data - but I was also actively looking for something to help me out.
A good basic question to ask yourself regularly is: Are the kids happier than if you did something else? Happier than if they were in school or homeschooling? Sometime the answer can be yes for some of the kids in a family and no for others - and while that seems odd to me, I have a lot of respect for the kind of personal integrity it takes to say "I can't do well by all my kids" and then look for alternatives. I know families who have gone from unschooling to homeschooling because mom struggles with depression or illness or other disability and homeschooling helps them stay more focused on the needs of their children.
---Meredith
>> I agree with the first part, but not with the last >>it reflects badly onNot at all - in addition to what Colleen pointed out about minorities, the "results" of a particular parenting philosophy Are going to be examined critically.
> all other unschoolers<<. I think this is an old paradigm
The first families I met who said "we're unschooling" included a 13yo girl who hated her parents and wanted to go to school more than anything, three children under the age of 5 who broke things and hurt people while their moms ignored them to have sex and get stoned, two families who were on the run (whether from some real threat or their own paranoia was never evident), and one fairly together young mother of an infant. There was nothing in those experiences to recommend unschooling to me.
Now, admittedly, I was living in a commune at the time and living in communes you get to meet all sorts of crazy people - mostly in a good way, but still, it's not hard to argue that I had a very, very skewed sample. And it was that fact which eventually led me to look at unschooling more seriously and try to gather some Other data - but I was also actively looking for something to help me out.
> 1. "Done well" according to whom? Who is judging whether unschooling isYour children. If you have a spouse or partner, he or she will be judging you, too, based on the wellbeing of your children. And ideally, you're judging yourself against your own best principles and adjusting what you do to what you see.
> being done well?
A good basic question to ask yourself regularly is: Are the kids happier than if you did something else? Happier than if they were in school or homeschooling? Sometime the answer can be yes for some of the kids in a family and no for others - and while that seems odd to me, I have a lot of respect for the kind of personal integrity it takes to say "I can't do well by all my kids" and then look for alternatives. I know families who have gone from unschooling to homeschooling because mom struggles with depression or illness or other disability and homeschooling helps them stay more focused on the needs of their children.
> 2. Is this what we want to pass on to our children, do it well or you'reOn the one hand, it helped me to step back from the idea of the "good mother" as that idea is, in my mind, tied to a whole lot of baggage. But at the same time, it has always been important to me to be a Competent parent. I didn't want my kids to be unhappy - and not wanting Ray to be unhappy kept me looking and looking for better.
> not doing anything at all?
---Meredith
Alex
--- In [email protected], "Robert and Colleen" <3potatoes@...> wrote:
At the same time, I was lucky enough to take an awesome Sociology of Social Movements class years ago, and the #1 thing I learned is this:
EVERY social movement includes people who the bulk of participants think take things too far and "ruin it for everybody": the militant Black Panthers in the US Civil Rights movement, radical lesbian/"bra-burning" (even though that didn't really happen so much LOL) feminists, etc. Depending how you feel as a homeschooler you might lump unschoolers in there, or maybe just radical/whole life unschoolers, or maybe radical unschoolers who are doing what you consider to be a bad job of it or who conflate it with another philosophy or represent themselves as experts, as has happened in many other movements.
History shows that the radical fringe doesn't bring movements down but instead helps make the average participant seem more normal, and bring the related conversation into the mainstream. There will always be people who take things one step too far and/or aren't respectful of other people's space/opinions/belongings and/or dress/groom like nuts and/or espouse other unrelated controversial stuff and/or say they're really doing/supporting something while also doing things that seem imcompatible, in any movement. I'm grateful that people are out there, doing things I wouldn't do, so that the things I do that other "normal" people" wouldn't do don't seem quite as bizarre.:) Homeschooling has become SO much more a normal, somewhat mainstream option in my lifetime. I think it's likely unschooling will get there too, not only despite but in part BECAUSE of people who seem like they are reflecting badly on everyone else. Realizing that makes me want to skip the concern/criticism/complaining altogether.
Anyway, regardless of how I feel, what other people do certainly isn't something I can control. It's nice to have a way to see the value in it.
Alex N.
>I totally agree. It's nice to be aware of that.
> ****I agree with the first part, but not with the last >>it reflects badly
> on all other unschoolers<<. I think this is an old paradigm where if someone
> in a family did something bad, others in the family believed it reflected
> badly on the rest of them. Does it? Is it not just someone's individual
> choice/action?****
>
> When someone is a member of a minority group, or a subculture, or any sort
> of non-mainstream/non-majority grouping, that someone runs into the reality
> of the mainstream looking at their individual character and actions as
> representative of their sub-group as a whole.
At the same time, I was lucky enough to take an awesome Sociology of Social Movements class years ago, and the #1 thing I learned is this:
EVERY social movement includes people who the bulk of participants think take things too far and "ruin it for everybody": the militant Black Panthers in the US Civil Rights movement, radical lesbian/"bra-burning" (even though that didn't really happen so much LOL) feminists, etc. Depending how you feel as a homeschooler you might lump unschoolers in there, or maybe just radical/whole life unschoolers, or maybe radical unschoolers who are doing what you consider to be a bad job of it or who conflate it with another philosophy or represent themselves as experts, as has happened in many other movements.
History shows that the radical fringe doesn't bring movements down but instead helps make the average participant seem more normal, and bring the related conversation into the mainstream. There will always be people who take things one step too far and/or aren't respectful of other people's space/opinions/belongings and/or dress/groom like nuts and/or espouse other unrelated controversial stuff and/or say they're really doing/supporting something while also doing things that seem imcompatible, in any movement. I'm grateful that people are out there, doing things I wouldn't do, so that the things I do that other "normal" people" wouldn't do don't seem quite as bizarre.:) Homeschooling has become SO much more a normal, somewhat mainstream option in my lifetime. I think it's likely unschooling will get there too, not only despite but in part BECAUSE of people who seem like they are reflecting badly on everyone else. Realizing that makes me want to skip the concern/criticism/complaining altogether.
Anyway, regardless of how I feel, what other people do certainly isn't something I can control. It's nice to have a way to see the value in it.
Alex N.
Sandra Dodd
-=- I think it's likely unschooling will get there too, not only despite but in part BECAUSE of people who seem like they are reflecting badly on everyone else. Realizing that makes me want to skip the concern/criticism/complaining altogether.-=-
I can see that, and this: -=-It's nice to have a way to see the value in it. -=-
Most people here can relax a whole lot then!
I can't, really. And it's that I'm afraid unschooling will become illegal and my kids will need to go to school. My youngest is 21. :-)
It's that I'm asked *daily* for advice, approval, blessings, information.... and I'm volunteering. I'm willing to do a good job, but not willing to dedicate so much of my life to doing a half-assed job.
If I'm going to be saying "Yeah, no pressure; whatever you do is fine," I would MUCH, much rather go and work at the grocery store near my house. That's right livelihood--something that needs to be done that wouldn't mar my integrity.
There are people telling other unschoolers that unschooling never looks the same in two families, and so whatever they think is unschooling IS unschooling. I don't want to be one of those people. It looks different in different houses with different people, but there is such a thing (a great, huge range) of NOT unschooling.
From the outside, from a distance, the idea of a small fringe of embarrassments can be significantly insignificant.
But when we're talking about a child, that child is someone's only, or 50% or 30% of their children and THOSE statistics count. If one single family says "we're unschoolers" but they're being neglectful poseurs (or not even bothering to pose), and if other unschoolers around them encourage that or cover for it, then laws are being broken. Child neglect isn't legal or moral.
-=-"Done well" according to whom? Who is judging whether unschooling is being done well?-=-
Sometimes judges are judging. Sometimes social workers.
Those judgments can result in a court order to put children in school or in foster homes.
Sandra
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I can see that, and this: -=-It's nice to have a way to see the value in it. -=-
Most people here can relax a whole lot then!
I can't, really. And it's that I'm afraid unschooling will become illegal and my kids will need to go to school. My youngest is 21. :-)
It's that I'm asked *daily* for advice, approval, blessings, information.... and I'm volunteering. I'm willing to do a good job, but not willing to dedicate so much of my life to doing a half-assed job.
If I'm going to be saying "Yeah, no pressure; whatever you do is fine," I would MUCH, much rather go and work at the grocery store near my house. That's right livelihood--something that needs to be done that wouldn't mar my integrity.
There are people telling other unschoolers that unschooling never looks the same in two families, and so whatever they think is unschooling IS unschooling. I don't want to be one of those people. It looks different in different houses with different people, but there is such a thing (a great, huge range) of NOT unschooling.
From the outside, from a distance, the idea of a small fringe of embarrassments can be significantly insignificant.
But when we're talking about a child, that child is someone's only, or 50% or 30% of their children and THOSE statistics count. If one single family says "we're unschoolers" but they're being neglectful poseurs (or not even bothering to pose), and if other unschoolers around them encourage that or cover for it, then laws are being broken. Child neglect isn't legal or moral.
-=-"Done well" according to whom? Who is judging whether unschooling is being done well?-=-
Sometimes judges are judging. Sometimes social workers.
Those judgments can result in a court order to put children in school or in foster homes.
Sandra
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Jenny Cyphers
***1. "Done well" according to whom? Who is judging whether unschooling is
being done well?
It feels like there is a standard to meet and anything short of that means
nothing is being done at all.***
I have my own standards of what it looks like to be done well. I fully recognize that my standard may not be the same standard of others. This is one reason why I've never wanted to be a spokesperson for unschooling. I'm not trying to hide anything, but I do have a very non traditional older child that others will judge by standards that are not mine. People who know her, know how awesome she is. She's not a poster child for unschooling, even though she's very typical of an unschooling kid in many ways. My younger kid is much more "normal".
We've been at this for a long time and got it going well early on, so I felt as if my unusual child wasn't such a big deal. She's an adult now and is still awesome and unusual. Still though, people will judge.
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being done well?
It feels like there is a standard to meet and anything short of that means
nothing is being done at all.***
I have my own standards of what it looks like to be done well. I fully recognize that my standard may not be the same standard of others. This is one reason why I've never wanted to be a spokesperson for unschooling. I'm not trying to hide anything, but I do have a very non traditional older child that others will judge by standards that are not mine. People who know her, know how awesome she is. She's not a poster child for unschooling, even though she's very typical of an unschooling kid in many ways. My younger kid is much more "normal".
We've been at this for a long time and got it going well early on, so I felt as if my unusual child wasn't such a big deal. She's an adult now and is still awesome and unusual. Still though, people will judge.
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Is this what we want to pass on to our children, do it well or you're not doing anything at all?-=-
There's something kids learn in school that they carry into their jobs. And some people have carried it into unschooling.
It is the question "how much do I *have to* do?" And it is said (or thought) with a whiney air of avoidance.
When parents require chores, kids learn to do the minimum required job. If the mom says "sweep the floor," it's possible for a child to move the broom around and not get it really clean, but still say he swept.
Is that better than doing nothing at all?
If someone tells me to wash the dishes, it's not the same as saying "clean the kitchen," and so I might (especially if there is a reward for finishing quickly, or doing on ly what I "have to" do).
-=-Is this what we want to pass on to our children, do it well or you're not doing anything at all?-=-
What is already, very often, passed on to children is that there's no point in doing something really well. "You don't get paid enough to do that," co-workers say. "Stop wrecking the curve" and "don't be a suck-up/lambe/brown-noser," the other kids will say to those who are enthusiastic and helpful.
Unschooling won't work well unless parents are enthusiastic and energetic. Any parent who wants to find out how little she can do to still be technically considered to be unschooling is NOT going to be a successful unschooler. Her children will suffer, they won't learn as much as they would have if she had been more engaged and engaging, and the relationships other unschoolers are so excited about won't happen.
Those things don't happen because someone joins this discussion or subscribes to information from Pam Laricchia, or memorizes Joyce-Fetteroll quotes. It only happens when they DO it... when they create and maintain a rich environment in which learning can and does flourish.
If they don't do it well, they are still doing something, but it's more likely to be neglect than unschooling.
Sandra
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There's something kids learn in school that they carry into their jobs. And some people have carried it into unschooling.
It is the question "how much do I *have to* do?" And it is said (or thought) with a whiney air of avoidance.
When parents require chores, kids learn to do the minimum required job. If the mom says "sweep the floor," it's possible for a child to move the broom around and not get it really clean, but still say he swept.
Is that better than doing nothing at all?
If someone tells me to wash the dishes, it's not the same as saying "clean the kitchen," and so I might (especially if there is a reward for finishing quickly, or doing on ly what I "have to" do).
-=-Is this what we want to pass on to our children, do it well or you're not doing anything at all?-=-
What is already, very often, passed on to children is that there's no point in doing something really well. "You don't get paid enough to do that," co-workers say. "Stop wrecking the curve" and "don't be a suck-up/lambe/brown-noser," the other kids will say to those who are enthusiastic and helpful.
Unschooling won't work well unless parents are enthusiastic and energetic. Any parent who wants to find out how little she can do to still be technically considered to be unschooling is NOT going to be a successful unschooler. Her children will suffer, they won't learn as much as they would have if she had been more engaged and engaging, and the relationships other unschoolers are so excited about won't happen.
Those things don't happen because someone joins this discussion or subscribes to information from Pam Laricchia, or memorizes Joyce-Fetteroll quotes. It only happens when they DO it... when they create and maintain a rich environment in which learning can and does flourish.
If they don't do it well, they are still doing something, but it's more likely to be neglect than unschooling.
Sandra
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Alex
> But when we're talking about a child, that child is someone's only, or 50% or 30% of their children and THOSE statistics count. If one single family says "we're unschoolers" but they're being neglectful poseurs (or not even bothering to pose), and if other unschoolers around them encourage that or cover for it, then laws are being broken. Child neglect isn't legal or moral.Agreed, on all counts. Just pointing out that there's a bit of history to show that the behavior of other people questionably calling themselves unschoolers may not negatively affect us and in a weird way may help. Which is just one reason for me to not be motivated by fear that someone will make me look bad. I'm much more likely to be effective in making my family look good.
Of course it is the right thing to want to help families who seem to be doing things that can hurt their kids. People just aren't easily influenced by people who seem pissed at them or motivated mostly by fear for their own well being. Personally when I focus on things outside of my control--such as people who aren't open to advice--it clouds my ability to calmly do the positive things that I AM capable of doing.
I'd love to hear discussion of what others have been able to do to help families who didn't seem to "get it." This is a great resource because of the lack of wishy-washy bullshit found elsewhere. I send people here.
I just see as reality the facts that A/ some people will never get it B/ some of them won't want advice even and C/ there is no way to know whether that will be a problem for anyone outside their family so maybe a focus elsewhere would be more productive. This is NOT a criticism of this thread, just a response to the "doesn't it make us look bad" type question. Maybe, maybe not, but YES either way it is great to do what we can for other families.
Alex N.
Sandra Dodd
-=- Just pointing out that there's a bit of history to show that the behavior of other people questionably calling themselves unschoolers may not negatively affect us and in a weird way may help.-=-
I understood that.
I wasn't talking about "the unschooling community."
I'm talking about unschooling in a pure form that either is happening or not, in a moment, in a family.
And I'm not thinking about comparisons, when I talk about making us look bad. I'm thinking about legal cases.
Sandra
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I understood that.
I wasn't talking about "the unschooling community."
I'm talking about unschooling in a pure form that either is happening or not, in a moment, in a family.
And I'm not thinking about comparisons, when I talk about making us look bad. I'm thinking about legal cases.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=Similarly, unschoolers behaving poorly in public (being destructive, for
example) can easily be pointed out by the mainstream to be doing that
*because* they are unschoolers. Not necessarily true in each individual
case - but it's something for the mainstream to point out and shake fingers
at. Not necessarily Fair, again - but just Real.-=-
There are unschoolers who have said themselves that their children's wild behavior is okay because they're unschoolers.
Those folks are not doing their children any good with that.
Coaching and helping children be gentle and civil, courteous and protective of materials and situations is better for everything and everyone involved.
Children should be learning about themselves in the world, and the world outside themselves.
They shouldn't be learning that their parents are unschoolers, and they are unschoolers and that somehow the laws, rules and expectations of others don't apply to them at all in any way, ever again.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
example) can easily be pointed out by the mainstream to be doing that
*because* they are unschoolers. Not necessarily true in each individual
case - but it's something for the mainstream to point out and shake fingers
at. Not necessarily Fair, again - but just Real.-=-
There are unschoolers who have said themselves that their children's wild behavior is okay because they're unschoolers.
Those folks are not doing their children any good with that.
Coaching and helping children be gentle and civil, courteous and protective of materials and situations is better for everything and everyone involved.
Children should be learning about themselves in the world, and the world outside themselves.
They shouldn't be learning that their parents are unschoolers, and they are unschoolers and that somehow the laws, rules and expectations of others don't apply to them at all in any way, ever again.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nadine Toppozada
>>It depends on the job.And it depends what you mean by "being done."
Could you please describe this unschooling that's not done well that you're
defending?<<
I am not defending any particular unschooling act / choice / practice that
is not being done well.
I am actually avoiding judging any act / choice / practice as being done
well or not.
"Well" for one person may mean "not good enough" for another and "nothing
being done at all" for a third.
Nadine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<<"At the same time, I was lucky enough to take an awesome Sociology of Social Movements class years ago, and the #1 thing I learned is this:
EVERY social movement includes people who the bulk of participants think take things too far and "ruin it for everybody""
"History shows that the radical fringe doesn't bring movements down but instead helps make the average participant seem more normal, and bring the related conversation into the mainstream. ">>>>
I personally do not see my choice to unschool my children as a social movement. I am not trying to change the world, the education system or anyone's mind.
Just last week in the Radical Unschooling Info group on Facebook there was a discussion and the word " movement" was used several times by someone.
Unschooling is how my children learn and how we live our lives in my home, using principles as a guide, that will lead me to creating a learning environment where my kids can thrive, learn and we can make our relationship stronger. It is not a social movement I joined.
As an unschooler that does help others in my spare time I am very aware of how my home life and my kids can be seen as a picture of unschooling.
I am happy that my son is opening and closing doors to people when we go places, that he helps little kids when we are around them.
They are not always perfect but I am proud of them and I love to see them be super sweet, polite and considerate.
Alex Polikowky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
EVERY social movement includes people who the bulk of participants think take things too far and "ruin it for everybody""
"History shows that the radical fringe doesn't bring movements down but instead helps make the average participant seem more normal, and bring the related conversation into the mainstream. ">>>>
I personally do not see my choice to unschool my children as a social movement. I am not trying to change the world, the education system or anyone's mind.
Just last week in the Radical Unschooling Info group on Facebook there was a discussion and the word " movement" was used several times by someone.
Unschooling is how my children learn and how we live our lives in my home, using principles as a guide, that will lead me to creating a learning environment where my kids can thrive, learn and we can make our relationship stronger. It is not a social movement I joined.
As an unschooler that does help others in my spare time I am very aware of how my home life and my kids can be seen as a picture of unschooling.
I am happy that my son is opening and closing doors to people when we go places, that he helps little kids when we are around them.
They are not always perfect but I am proud of them and I love to see them be super sweet, polite and considerate.
Alex Polikowky
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Nov 13, 2012, at 10:29 AM, Nadine Toppozada wrote:
Happiness is an effect. Engagement is an effect. Learning is an effect. If those aren't happening for a child, unschooling isn't being done well.
I think you're confusing the concepts of "right" and "well".
While there are practices that are clearly right for unschooling and clearly wrong, a better way of judging practices is whether they're moving someone towards a peaceful home, joyful learning, closer relationships.
There is a current message in society not to be *judgmental* of people, e.g., excessively critical especially done with a surface knowledge. It's impolite to judge someone as a bad parent because she sends her children to school.
But the message isn't to stop judging whether something is good or bad, useful or not, helpful or not. Not judging means not thinking.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>That statement makes no sense. "Well" is a judgement on the effect not on a practice.
> "Well" for one person may mean "not good enough" for another and "nothing
> being done at all" for a third.
Happiness is an effect. Engagement is an effect. Learning is an effect. If those aren't happening for a child, unschooling isn't being done well.
I think you're confusing the concepts of "right" and "well".
While there are practices that are clearly right for unschooling and clearly wrong, a better way of judging practices is whether they're moving someone towards a peaceful home, joyful learning, closer relationships.
There is a current message in society not to be *judgmental* of people, e.g., excessively critical especially done with a surface knowledge. It's impolite to judge someone as a bad parent because she sends her children to school.
But the message isn't to stop judging whether something is good or bad, useful or not, helpful or not. Not judging means not thinking.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I am actually avoiding judging any act / choice / practice as being done well or not.-=-
How will you nudge your children toward better?
How will you improve your own actions, choices and practices?
-=-"Well" for one person may mean "not good enough" for another and "nothing being done at all" for a third.-=-
And for people who attempt or succeed at not judging? What will the person be doing in their world?
The very hypocritical and revealing thing in all this is that you judged my statements as wrong. :-)
But I have many, many years of experience with unschoolers. I've seen glowing successes and shameful failures. I think you would like to imagine that it's immoral or wrong, somehow for me to think that, or write that out in public--that somehow I'm a bad person for knowing the difference between success and failure, between glow and shame.
In addition to 22 years of experience with unschooling and most of a long lifetime with education and learning, I had twenty years of organizing formal discussion of virtues (based mostly on ideas of medieval knightly virtue, and the religion and philosophy connected to all that). Denying that there is "better" and "worse" can be the defense of someone without very much interpersonal or intrapersonal skill. I can unerstand it when someone who is tone deaf doesn't think much or melody or harmony. But for those who do have interpersonal awareness, the difference between doing something well or badly is perceivable, and important, and that person's capacity to do well is a factor, too. If someone works hard to do well, while someone else who could do that well with no effort is purposely slacking off, there is another relative comparison that can be important to those who might be called on to advise or defend or encourage those folks.
Sandra
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How will you nudge your children toward better?
How will you improve your own actions, choices and practices?
-=-"Well" for one person may mean "not good enough" for another and "nothing being done at all" for a third.-=-
And for people who attempt or succeed at not judging? What will the person be doing in their world?
The very hypocritical and revealing thing in all this is that you judged my statements as wrong. :-)
But I have many, many years of experience with unschoolers. I've seen glowing successes and shameful failures. I think you would like to imagine that it's immoral or wrong, somehow for me to think that, or write that out in public--that somehow I'm a bad person for knowing the difference between success and failure, between glow and shame.
In addition to 22 years of experience with unschooling and most of a long lifetime with education and learning, I had twenty years of organizing formal discussion of virtues (based mostly on ideas of medieval knightly virtue, and the religion and philosophy connected to all that). Denying that there is "better" and "worse" can be the defense of someone without very much interpersonal or intrapersonal skill. I can unerstand it when someone who is tone deaf doesn't think much or melody or harmony. But for those who do have interpersonal awareness, the difference between doing something well or badly is perceivable, and important, and that person's capacity to do well is a factor, too. If someone works hard to do well, while someone else who could do that well with no effort is purposely slacking off, there is another relative comparison that can be important to those who might be called on to advise or defend or encourage those folks.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-As an unschooler that does help others in my spare time I am very aware of how my home life and my kids can be seen as a picture of unschooling.-=-
The experience of learning about unschooling is different for different people. For those who go to coferences or meet many unschoolers in person it matters a great deal how the families function.
I trust others more when I've seen their families get along well, and have seen them be calmly enthusastic about new situations or ideas or experiences. I trust others less when I've seen tension and negativity.
I want to help others. I want to encourage the best of others to help, and discourage the negative and the fakers from speaking and writing so much, or at least to encourage anyone looking for ideas use some discretion and judgment in where they will go and whom they will trust.
This is changing directions a bit, for a minute:
Ideas are ideas. If someone plagiarizes from me or Pam Sorooshian or Anne Ohman and puts those ideas out there as her own, the ideas will still be useful. :-) It might be nice, though, to know where the ideas came from. Someone who quotes other people's ideas without credit isn't honest. When someone isn't honest, you can't put faith in their accounts of success. It's a problem that doesn't affect everyone equally, but if someone who isn't affected denies there is a problem, it doesn't make the problem go away; it just shows that the person saying "doesn't matter" isn't planning (or isn't able) to exercise critical thought in such situations.
Back to doing it well or badly...
I don't just take a person's word for how things are going at her house, in general. Some people say little to nothing, and unschooling is going GREAT for them. Some people coo and brag and those who've visited them or who know them know that it's more talk than reality.
People are that way about all kinds of things. Some people brag about their sports prowess, and make excuses for losses. Some people call themselves writers, or artists, or singers, but never DO that thing unless they are paid to do it, or they're waiting to be paid to do it maybe someday, but don't actually just DO it, for free, for fun. And those things don't matter to anyone but the friends they might be irritating.
In the case of something like learning about unschooling, though, it can matter.
If I went to La Leche League and was taking breastfeeding advice about someone who was not being honest about her own relationship with her child, then what? If I were at Adult Children of Alcoholics meetings for a while and discovered that one of the prominent members was doing the same alcohol-abusing damage to his own family as his parents did to him, then what?
But even without witnesses, for the sake of a child it only matters how it is done within that family.
WITH witnesses, with other unschoolers wanting to learn about unschooling from other unschoolers, then integrity and honesty matter.
In relationship to representatives of government agencies or family courts, what matters is how the parents are fulfilling their responsibilities under the law.
Sandra
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The experience of learning about unschooling is different for different people. For those who go to coferences or meet many unschoolers in person it matters a great deal how the families function.
I trust others more when I've seen their families get along well, and have seen them be calmly enthusastic about new situations or ideas or experiences. I trust others less when I've seen tension and negativity.
I want to help others. I want to encourage the best of others to help, and discourage the negative and the fakers from speaking and writing so much, or at least to encourage anyone looking for ideas use some discretion and judgment in where they will go and whom they will trust.
This is changing directions a bit, for a minute:
Ideas are ideas. If someone plagiarizes from me or Pam Sorooshian or Anne Ohman and puts those ideas out there as her own, the ideas will still be useful. :-) It might be nice, though, to know where the ideas came from. Someone who quotes other people's ideas without credit isn't honest. When someone isn't honest, you can't put faith in their accounts of success. It's a problem that doesn't affect everyone equally, but if someone who isn't affected denies there is a problem, it doesn't make the problem go away; it just shows that the person saying "doesn't matter" isn't planning (or isn't able) to exercise critical thought in such situations.
Back to doing it well or badly...
I don't just take a person's word for how things are going at her house, in general. Some people say little to nothing, and unschooling is going GREAT for them. Some people coo and brag and those who've visited them or who know them know that it's more talk than reality.
People are that way about all kinds of things. Some people brag about their sports prowess, and make excuses for losses. Some people call themselves writers, or artists, or singers, but never DO that thing unless they are paid to do it, or they're waiting to be paid to do it maybe someday, but don't actually just DO it, for free, for fun. And those things don't matter to anyone but the friends they might be irritating.
In the case of something like learning about unschooling, though, it can matter.
If I went to La Leche League and was taking breastfeeding advice about someone who was not being honest about her own relationship with her child, then what? If I were at Adult Children of Alcoholics meetings for a while and discovered that one of the prominent members was doing the same alcohol-abusing damage to his own family as his parents did to him, then what?
But even without witnesses, for the sake of a child it only matters how it is done within that family.
WITH witnesses, with other unschoolers wanting to learn about unschooling from other unschoolers, then integrity and honesty matter.
In relationship to representatives of government agencies or family courts, what matters is how the parents are fulfilling their responsibilities under the law.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
I don't like to disagree with Joyce, but I disagree about this one:
I don't think so.
It could be possible for a creative, energetic parent to provide very well for a child who is for some reason (or combination of reasons) not very responsive to it all. Openness to new experience (curiosiy) is a personality trait some people are born with more than others. I can imagine a situation where effect might not follow from the best of practices.
In such a case I think all of us would help the parent find what was good practice *for that particular child."
But to the original statement, it does make sense to me. And I think I can explain it.
My opinion is just my opinion. Some people value it and some people don't.
A judge's opinion is not just the judge's opinion. He has social workers and policemen, juries and jails.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> "Well" for one person may mean "not good enough" for another and "nothingJoyce wrote "That statement makes no sense. "Well" is a judgement on the effect not on a practice."
> being done at all" for a third.
I don't think so.
It could be possible for a creative, energetic parent to provide very well for a child who is for some reason (or combination of reasons) not very responsive to it all. Openness to new experience (curiosiy) is a personality trait some people are born with more than others. I can imagine a situation where effect might not follow from the best of practices.
In such a case I think all of us would help the parent find what was good practice *for that particular child."
But to the original statement, it does make sense to me. And I think I can explain it.
> "Well" for one person may mean "not good enough" for another and "nothingYes. There is a range, and it is somewhat subjective. There is also an objetive scale that can (and will) be applied if the person is taken to court or examined within divorce and custody procedings, or questioned by educational authorities.
> being done at all" for a third.
> "Well" for one person may mean "not good enough" for another and "nothingThere is no voting and certification of "good enough." If ten or a hundred or a thousand other unschoolers, or strangers, voted and the consensus was "great unschooling! Excellent! A+!" it would be bullshit. It doesn't matter. That's not how it works. And if lots of other people say "awesome mom; your kids are lucky to have you," but the kids are unhappy, then the "friends" were wrong. That sort of support feels good for a second, but is false and can be harmful. http://sandradodd.com/support
> being done at all" for a third.
> "Well" for one person may mean "not good enough" for another and "nothingIt deends whose opinion one values. If ten people say "awesom mom," and one person says "yikes; your child seems to be following you saying 'mom, mom' and you're not even noticing," or "Didn't you notice how negative you were being about his interests and questions?" or "if you don't take care of your marriage, you won't be unschooling for much longer," then the mom needs to decide whether to listen to "not good enough" or to deny it.
> being done at all" for a third.
My opinion is just my opinion. Some people value it and some people don't.
A judge's opinion is not just the judge's opinion. He has social workers and policemen, juries and jails.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
Openness to new experience (curiosity) Curiosity I had meant to write, but wrote "curiosiy" (sorry).
To read about those traits there's this and other stuff online and out and about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits
There are genetic factors, but any of them can be nurtured or stunted by the way a child is treated growing up.
Sandra
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To read about those traits there's this and other stuff online and out and about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits
There are genetic factors, but any of them can be nurtured or stunted by the way a child is treated growing up.
Sandra
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Jenny Cyphers
***I've seen glowing successes and shameful failures. I think you would like to imagine that it's immoral or wrong, somehow for me to think that, or write that out in public--that somehow I'm a bad person for knowing the difference between success and failure, between glow and shame.***
I've met some amazing unschooling families and some really terrible ones. It's the same for other non unschooling families. What I've taken from my experience is knowing what not to do, how not to behave. There are many ways to be within a family. If my goal is happy learning, then there are even more ways not to be. I set the bar pretty high for myself in that way.
There are some families that I absolutely don't want to emulate in any way shape or form. That's a judgement call on my part.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've met some amazing unschooling families and some really terrible ones. It's the same for other non unschooling families. What I've taken from my experience is knowing what not to do, how not to behave. There are many ways to be within a family. If my goal is happy learning, then there are even more ways not to be. I set the bar pretty high for myself in that way.
There are some families that I absolutely don't want to emulate in any way shape or form. That's a judgement call on my part.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
If you mean some people's best might not be very good and some people's
worst might be pretty good, then yeah.
But "nothing being done at all" isn't unschooling well from any sensible
point of view.
-pam
worst might be pretty good, then yeah.
But "nothing being done at all" isn't unschooling well from any sensible
point of view.
-pam
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Nadine Toppozada <ntoppozada@...>wrote:
> "Well" for one person may mean "not good enough" for another and "nothing
> being done at all" for a third.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nadine Toppozada
I left on vacation for a few days and although this may be a bit late, I
thought I would post it anyway....
They will practice presence, be aware of their actions, outcomes, causes
and conditions.
They will live transparently and authentically, without concern for the
opinions of others unless they have asked for them.
They will share their wisdom when asked, without judgment.
They will see external judgment as intimately related with inner judgment,
which reflects the internal mental states and associated feelings of
dissatisfaction, insecurity, fear of inadequacy....
I have really enjoyed reading all the perspectives presented on many issues
in this group and I particularly enjoy it because people feel free to
disagree and agree and the list holds it all.
I absolutely did not judge any statement as "wrong", I believe the word I
used was "extreme", and it brought up some questions in my mind which I
listed.
Again, I did not think any of it was wrong, just very different from how I
process things.
I have deep respect for the years of experience many on this list have,
which need not even be listed.
I have read words, thought-patterns, ways of analyzing, disassembling, and
re-assembling life as it unfolds with all its happenings that are simply
INCREDIBLE, INSPIRING, and LIFE-CHANGING to say the least.
What a gift to be able to question and recreate!
"Denying that there is "better" and "worse" can be the defense of someone
without very much interpersonal or intrapersonal skill."
Or it can be a way of living whilst holding it all with compassion and a
deep sense of reverence for life.
A way of making a conscious choice to not summon the judge, jury, and
executioner, both inside and outside.
Nadine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thought I would post it anyway....
>>And for people who attempt or succeed at not judging? What will theperson be doing in their world?<<
They will practice presence, be aware of their actions, outcomes, causes
and conditions.
They will live transparently and authentically, without concern for the
opinions of others unless they have asked for them.
They will share their wisdom when asked, without judgment.
They will see external judgment as intimately related with inner judgment,
which reflects the internal mental states and associated feelings of
dissatisfaction, insecurity, fear of inadequacy....
>>The very hypocritical and revealing thing in all this is that you judgedmy statements as wrong. :-)<<
I have really enjoyed reading all the perspectives presented on many issues
in this group and I particularly enjoy it because people feel free to
disagree and agree and the list holds it all.
I absolutely did not judge any statement as "wrong", I believe the word I
used was "extreme", and it brought up some questions in my mind which I
listed.
Again, I did not think any of it was wrong, just very different from how I
process things.
I have deep respect for the years of experience many on this list have,
which need not even be listed.
I have read words, thought-patterns, ways of analyzing, disassembling, and
re-assembling life as it unfolds with all its happenings that are simply
INCREDIBLE, INSPIRING, and LIFE-CHANGING to say the least.
What a gift to be able to question and recreate!
"Denying that there is "better" and "worse" can be the defense of someone
without very much interpersonal or intrapersonal skill."
Or it can be a way of living whilst holding it all with compassion and a
deep sense of reverence for life.
A way of making a conscious choice to not summon the judge, jury, and
executioner, both inside and outside.
Nadine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-They will practice presence, be aware of their actions, outcomes, causes
and conditions.-=-
Outcomes and conditions without value judgment?
If all things are equally valid, why even bother to make decisions?
-=-They will live transparently and authentically, without concern for the
opinions of others unless they have asked for them.-=-
The suggestion, when someone describes her newfound, superior beliefs and practices, then, is that others are not being "transparent" or "authentic."
If acting without concern for the opinions of others is valuable, then what triggered your criticism in this topic in the first place?
This discussion is intended for nothing BUT discussion of the opinions of others, on the topic of unschooling. My assumption (as the creator and still-owner of the list) is that anyone who comes here and posts is asking for others' opinions.
-=-They will see external judgment as intimately related with inner judgment,
which reflects the internal mental states and associated feelings of
dissatisfaction, insecurity, fear of inadequacy....-=-
So...
If someone else makes a false or rude comment about something I'm doing, and I see it as false or rude, that means it's all about me and the comment was a neutral action, neither false nor rude?
-=-I have really enjoyed reading all the perspectives presented on many issues
in this group and I particularly enjoy it because people feel free to
disagree and agree and the list holds it all.-=-
It doesn't hold it all to be equally valid.
I wrote:
-=-"Denying that there is "better" and "worse" can be the defense of someone
without very much interpersonal or intrapersonal skill."-=-
Nadine responded:
-=-Or it can be a way of living whilst holding it all with compassion and a
deep sense of reverence for life.-=-
That sounds really sweet and good until you plug liars, plagiarists, rapists and child molesters in there.
-=-A way of making a conscious choice to not summon the judge, jury, and executioner, both inside and outside.-=-
EXTREME!
If you think that seeing one thing as better than another thing is summoning the judge, jury and executioner, it seems an accusation of those outside your alleged compassionate holding .... cell?
We made bizcochitos at a party last night. I made the traditional recipe, which uses lard and brandy. Another guest there who is not local and who had never seen or tasted a bizcochito in her life decided to amend the recipe to Crisco, butter and orange juice. I didn't want her executed, but perhaps, maybe, she should have known what the cookies are supposed to be like before she changed the recipe. Our cookies weren't equal, when the scale was "those Christmas cookies from New Mexico." If they were "how to use up six cups of flour and two hours work," if the judge and jury didn't like cookies or their new religion said no gluten, then they were equal.
If one judge of what's written on Always Learning thinks unschooling is wrong and internet discussions are a waste of time, then all the posts become equal, every five-letter word is equal to any other five-letter word. If another has come to think that there really *are* simple ways she can improve her understanding of unschooling and her relationship with her children immediately, some posts will be more valuable to her (i.e. "better") than others.
Families who share the ways in which unschooling has improved their families andtheir lives are practicing a kind of transparency that is rare and precious. They are letting others peek into their "private lives." Because they think something has made life better, they reveal things about themselves, to pass that benefit on to others who would like to make their own lives better. There is no benefit to discouraging people from doing that.
I don't like the term "authentic," of human behavior. It suggests that all those doing anything differently are false, inauthentic, wrong.
If it means being thoughtful and mindful, those are much better terms and concepts to use. If it means living by principles and making careful decisions rather than stumbling along following vague rules, then let's talk about living by principles. But "authenticity" is a false clarity. It's not as real as it sounds.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and conditions.-=-
Outcomes and conditions without value judgment?
If all things are equally valid, why even bother to make decisions?
-=-They will live transparently and authentically, without concern for the
opinions of others unless they have asked for them.-=-
The suggestion, when someone describes her newfound, superior beliefs and practices, then, is that others are not being "transparent" or "authentic."
If acting without concern for the opinions of others is valuable, then what triggered your criticism in this topic in the first place?
This discussion is intended for nothing BUT discussion of the opinions of others, on the topic of unschooling. My assumption (as the creator and still-owner of the list) is that anyone who comes here and posts is asking for others' opinions.
-=-They will see external judgment as intimately related with inner judgment,
which reflects the internal mental states and associated feelings of
dissatisfaction, insecurity, fear of inadequacy....-=-
So...
If someone else makes a false or rude comment about something I'm doing, and I see it as false or rude, that means it's all about me and the comment was a neutral action, neither false nor rude?
-=-I have really enjoyed reading all the perspectives presented on many issues
in this group and I particularly enjoy it because people feel free to
disagree and agree and the list holds it all.-=-
It doesn't hold it all to be equally valid.
I wrote:
-=-"Denying that there is "better" and "worse" can be the defense of someone
without very much interpersonal or intrapersonal skill."-=-
Nadine responded:
-=-Or it can be a way of living whilst holding it all with compassion and a
deep sense of reverence for life.-=-
That sounds really sweet and good until you plug liars, plagiarists, rapists and child molesters in there.
-=-A way of making a conscious choice to not summon the judge, jury, and executioner, both inside and outside.-=-
EXTREME!
If you think that seeing one thing as better than another thing is summoning the judge, jury and executioner, it seems an accusation of those outside your alleged compassionate holding .... cell?
We made bizcochitos at a party last night. I made the traditional recipe, which uses lard and brandy. Another guest there who is not local and who had never seen or tasted a bizcochito in her life decided to amend the recipe to Crisco, butter and orange juice. I didn't want her executed, but perhaps, maybe, she should have known what the cookies are supposed to be like before she changed the recipe. Our cookies weren't equal, when the scale was "those Christmas cookies from New Mexico." If they were "how to use up six cups of flour and two hours work," if the judge and jury didn't like cookies or their new religion said no gluten, then they were equal.
If one judge of what's written on Always Learning thinks unschooling is wrong and internet discussions are a waste of time, then all the posts become equal, every five-letter word is equal to any other five-letter word. If another has come to think that there really *are* simple ways she can improve her understanding of unschooling and her relationship with her children immediately, some posts will be more valuable to her (i.e. "better") than others.
Families who share the ways in which unschooling has improved their families andtheir lives are practicing a kind of transparency that is rare and precious. They are letting others peek into their "private lives." Because they think something has made life better, they reveal things about themselves, to pass that benefit on to others who would like to make their own lives better. There is no benefit to discouraging people from doing that.
I don't like the term "authentic," of human behavior. It suggests that all those doing anything differently are false, inauthentic, wrong.
If it means being thoughtful and mindful, those are much better terms and concepts to use. If it means living by principles and making careful decisions rather than stumbling along following vague rules, then let's talk about living by principles. But "authenticity" is a false clarity. It's not as real as it sounds.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robert and Colleen
****Denying that there is "better" and "worse" can be the defense of someone
without very much interpersonal or intrapersonal skill.****
****Or it can be a way of living whilst holding it all with compassion and a
deep sense of reverence for life. A way of making a conscious choice to not
summon the judge, jury, and executioner, both inside and outside.****
I don't think of making choices as "summon[ing] judge, jury, and executioner
both inside and out."
I think of making choices as evaluating options, and ensuring that I do my
best to do what is better for me and my family, and that at the same time I
do my best to avoid what is worse for me and my family.
My choices might not be someone else's choices - so I agree that Better and
Worse when used as Absolutes aren't helpful words. But when they are used
as evaluative words - as words that help guide me and my family toward peace
and away from things that aren't peaceful, they're extremely helpful and
very appropriate words (and concepts) to ponder.
The other day, my son was tired, as nightmares have been keeping him awake.
He had a major meltdown and he had several very angry hours - and toward the
end of those hours of anger, after doing everything I could think of to do
to distract or help him, I yelled back at him. That was a lousy choice.
Given the choice I had between yell and not-yell, I chose the worse one.
When I realized I was making a bad choice, I stopped. Not as soon as I wish
I had - I wish that I had never yelled at all. But soothing myself and
saying "you're only human." or looking for others to say "that's ok - it
happens" wouldn't help me Not Yell next time. Standing objectively and
looking at myself and my choice and saying "that stunk!!" is what inspires
me to not do it again anytime soon. It's not judging myself in a "you are a
terrible human being" sort of way - but indeed it is judging my choice,
knowing it was Not Good, and recommitting myself to doing something
different and more positive next time.
Without Better and Worse I guess I might feel happier when I think about
that day, since there would be no need to think of myself as having failed
at doing good and being peaceful and helpful in that moment. But I think it
does much more good for my son and my family for me to say to myself "bad
choice there - do Better next time!"
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
without very much interpersonal or intrapersonal skill.****
****Or it can be a way of living whilst holding it all with compassion and a
deep sense of reverence for life. A way of making a conscious choice to not
summon the judge, jury, and executioner, both inside and outside.****
I don't think of making choices as "summon[ing] judge, jury, and executioner
both inside and out."
I think of making choices as evaluating options, and ensuring that I do my
best to do what is better for me and my family, and that at the same time I
do my best to avoid what is worse for me and my family.
My choices might not be someone else's choices - so I agree that Better and
Worse when used as Absolutes aren't helpful words. But when they are used
as evaluative words - as words that help guide me and my family toward peace
and away from things that aren't peaceful, they're extremely helpful and
very appropriate words (and concepts) to ponder.
The other day, my son was tired, as nightmares have been keeping him awake.
He had a major meltdown and he had several very angry hours - and toward the
end of those hours of anger, after doing everything I could think of to do
to distract or help him, I yelled back at him. That was a lousy choice.
Given the choice I had between yell and not-yell, I chose the worse one.
When I realized I was making a bad choice, I stopped. Not as soon as I wish
I had - I wish that I had never yelled at all. But soothing myself and
saying "you're only human." or looking for others to say "that's ok - it
happens" wouldn't help me Not Yell next time. Standing objectively and
looking at myself and my choice and saying "that stunk!!" is what inspires
me to not do it again anytime soon. It's not judging myself in a "you are a
terrible human being" sort of way - but indeed it is judging my choice,
knowing it was Not Good, and recommitting myself to doing something
different and more positive next time.
Without Better and Worse I guess I might feel happier when I think about
that day, since there would be no need to think of myself as having failed
at doing good and being peaceful and helpful in that moment. But I think it
does much more good for my son and my family for me to say to myself "bad
choice there - do Better next time!"
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
> >>And for people who attempt or succeed at not judging? What will theThat's not my experience; for the most part, the people I know who value sentiments like "its all good" are more often dismissive, wrapped up in their own needs and feelings and willing to hurt other people to shore up their own sense of self. Not-judging is a shield that people who have been badly hurt sometimes wrap around them as a way of disconnecting from others - because others are sources of hurt. And as parents, that makes them very un-sensitive to the needs and feelings of their children, unwilling to really look at their kids and evaluate their needs and look for ways to meet them better. Because "better" is a judgement, so nevermind that. It's all good.
> person be doing in their world?<<
>
> They will practice presence, be aware of their actions, outcomes, causes
> and conditions.
If you value presence, then practice that, but realize that there's a judgement involved - you Judge presence to be better than absence or dismissal. If you value awareness, thoughtfulness, practice those because you find them good, valuable, worthy, without beating yourself up over that judgement. Living by your principles requires judgement. It doesn't require beating yourself up - but that can be embedded within your principles. If you value kindness, be kind to yourself, too. If you value presence, touch base with what You need, too.
Maybe what you feel when you think about "not-judging" is like what I feel when I think about graciousness - and on a personal level those feelings are much more important than words or definitions, particularly if you're not a "words" person or an analytic person. But for most people words, the words we use in our own thoughts, can have a surprisingly large effect on the way we think about the world and ourselves, so it's useful to look hard at them.
> They will live transparently and authentically, without concern for theWhat about the opinions of your children? Don't they matter? One of the worst things a parent can do is be Too "transparent and authentic" with children. They don't want or need to be inflicted with the weight of adult baggage - they want to know what's going on around them, to an extent, but they don't want to be thrust into the position of parenting their parents. That's cruel. But that's where some parents get from words like "transparent and authentic".
> opinions of others unless they have asked for them.
My dad wasn't a very communicative person when I was a kid - he did a good job being the kind of old fashioned, "knight in shining armor" dad he thought he was supposed to be, but it was hard to see him as a real person. My mom cried, made mistakes, explained her thinking, fumbled around for solutions, and generally was a very "human" person... to me, anyway. I'm guessing you mean something similar when you say "transparent and authentic" but those are ideas which need a loooooot of good judgement to work well as principles, they need to be weighed heavily against other people's needs and feelings. Personally, I don't find it helpful to have principles which require other principles in opposition to them.
There's a way, too, in which ideas like "authenticity" are hurtful in that they dismiss the complexity of real people. I'm a quirky sort of person, and I like that about myself, but I don't need to be quirky all the time - in fact, sometimes I don't want to be the least bit quirky, I want to be wallpaper, I want to be unremarkable. I'm an opinionated person, but I don't need to be overtly opinionated all the time - I want to listen and take in the ideas of others, even if I don't agree with them. Or I want to be politely quiet because I'm not in the mood to get into it, or because I don't want to hurt someone's feelings. "Authenticity" doesn't cover that very well. In fact, it sometimes feels insulting to me - triggering old schoolish goop about "not living up to my potential" as well as more adult feelings of human complexity. Because I am strong willed and quirky and opinionated... and I am also kind and gracious and try to be thoughtful. If "authenticity" is one of my principles, it needs another principle in opposition to it to account for that complexity. But an idea like "mindfulness" doesn't - I can be mindful of my needs, my feelings, the needs and feelings of others, the appropriateness of the time and place, and what I know about causes and effects. And I can weigh and judge all that information and make a decision about what to say and how to be in the moment.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=- I can be mindful of my needs, my feelings, the needs and feelings of others, the appropriateness of the time and place, and what I know about causes and effects. And I can weigh and judge all that information and make a decision about what to say and how to be in the moment. -=-
Meredith wrote that, and it seems to me the crux of the whole topic. If someone is NOT thinking and deciding, then unschooling isn't going to be working well.
And in relationships, if someone believes that there is something, some trick, some "identification," some channelled entity or some terminology that will somehow free them from needing to think, that's a danger. You can buy a book or take a course or hire a coach to tell you that as long as you are communicating non-violently, or living authentically, that you won't need to think. Maybe re-think that, though.
Every time a person acts without thinking, he's acted thoughtlessly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith wrote that, and it seems to me the crux of the whole topic. If someone is NOT thinking and deciding, then unschooling isn't going to be working well.
And in relationships, if someone believes that there is something, some trick, some "identification," some channelled entity or some terminology that will somehow free them from needing to think, that's a danger. You can buy a book or take a course or hire a coach to tell you that as long as you are communicating non-violently, or living authentically, that you won't need to think. Maybe re-think that, though.
Every time a person acts without thinking, he's acted thoughtlessly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Nov 18, 2012, at 2:58 PM, Nadine Toppozada wrote:
Or do you mean your transparent and authentic self can't ever be rude because you're aware of your actions? But if your actions aren't to be judged then there is no distinction being made between rude and not rude.
Either your not explaining this well or you've adopted some nice sounding ideas without judging whether they make sense or not.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> They will practice presence, be aware of their actions, outcomes, causesAwareness of actions without judging is Jane Goodall observing her chimps nursing, carrying out infanticide, eating bugs and bashing in the skulls of rival troops. The reaction to each is the same: to record dispassionately.
> and conditions.
> They will live transparently and authentically, without concern for theSo if my opinion is you're being rude or disrupting my party, you'll continue on with your authenticity and transparency?
> opinions of others unless they have asked for them.
Or do you mean your transparent and authentic self can't ever be rude because you're aware of your actions? But if your actions aren't to be judged then there is no distinction being made between rude and not rude.
> They will see external judgment as intimately related with inner judgment,So a judgement of rudeness or hurtfulness means the other person is feeling insecure or inadequate?
> which reflects the internal mental states and associated feelings of
> dissatisfaction, insecurity, fear of inadequacy....
Either your not explaining this well or you've adopted some nice sounding ideas without judging whether they make sense or not.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nadine Toppozada
>>One of the worst things a parent can do is be Too "transparent andauthentic" with children. They don't want or need to be inflicted with the
weight of adult baggage - they want to know what's going on around them, to
an extent, but they don't want to be thrust into the position of parenting
their parents.<<
Authenticity and transparency to me do not mean tossing out discernment and
weighing children down with adult baggage.
If I am a wreck and my discernment guides me to remove myself from being
with my children because I deem it inappropriate to be around them with my
baggage, then I will.
However, I will not lie or shroud the event in some false pretense, I will
be authentic and transparent, announcing that I am not ok right now and I
think it best if I remove myself, rather than lying.
>> But if your actions aren't to be judged then there is no distinctionbeing made between rude and not rude.<<
>>So if my opinion is you're being rude or disrupting my party, you'llcontinue on with your authenticity and transparency?<<
Rude or not rude is a judgment and in being so, is subjective.
If I take a cupcake and fling it at the birthday boy, he may think it is
funny as hell and laugh his way into the pool to wash off, whereas his mom
may think this was rude and inappropriate. Who makes the ultimate call as
to whether the boy who flinged the cupcake goes home or stays? The kid who
is laughing with his face covered in cupcake or the angry mom?
>>Families who share the ways in which unschooling has improved theirfamilies and their lives are practicing a kind of transparency that is rare
and precious. They are letting others peek into their "private lives."
Because they think something has made life better, they reveal things about
themselves, to pass that benefit on to others who would like to make their
own lives better. There is no benefit to discouraging people from doing
that.<<
Absolutely!! Precisely what I mentioned earlier � practicing transparency,
and not just saying it is all good; but actually living transparently,
sharing what works and what does not. They share their trials and moments
of disconnection and disharmony as well as moments of joy and connection.
They come seeking help, advice, past experiences with the same
issues/problems/challenges�..There is a raw truth in those life
experiences.
>>So a judgment of rudeness or hurtfulness means the other person isfeeling insecure or inadequate?<<
A dog bite received as a child often results in extreme caution of
four-legged furry creatures encountered in the present. What results is a
feeling of insecurity around all four-leggeds, a feeling of inadequacy to
face the situation when running into a four-legged based on the past
experience.
When we judge, we look outside of ourselves to what should or shouldn�t be
happening, we are interpreting what happened now in light of what happened
back then.
I prefer discernment (and that is not just a play on words). *The main
difference for me between discernment and judgment is emotion. Judgment
holds a frozen/stuck/unprocessed emotion based upon a past painful
experience and discernment does not. Discernment is about the present and,
it is devoid of an emotional story.***
*
*
*Nadine*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Authenticity and transparency to me do not mean tossing out discernment and
weighing children down with adult baggage.
-=-If I am a wreck and my discernment guides me to remove myself from being
with my children because I deem it inappropriate to be around them with my
baggage, then I will.-=-
All those words and special definitions are likely putting a thick layer of noise between you and your children.
They're causing you to have a problem with the information in this discussion.
If your discernment guides you to do ANYthing, then you're not making decisions.
Discernment is perception. It's being able to tell a good thing from a bad thing.
You (or whatever book you might be reading) can't really change the meaning of a perfectly good English word.
To be judgmental is to be negative and frustrated--it's a negative term for someone who finds fault habitually.
To use good judgment is not negative. It doesn't need any frustration. It's not a negative.
If you don't have good judgment, you can't use discernment.
-=-However, I will not lie or shroud the event in some false pretense, -=-
See how you've judged others who aren't like you to be SHROUDING events in false (dishonest PRETENSE? TOO thoroughly dark and negative.
-=-Rude or not rude is a judgment and in being so, is subjective.-=-
To some extent that's true. There are cultural realties--hand gestures, belching, the order of entering or leaving a room, seitting postures, greetings--that can be rude or not depending on the surroundings. There are cultural realities in our own culture. Anyone who acts the very same way at a wedding and a funeral needs to stop going to public events.
Because SOME behavior is subjective doesn't mean that all behavior is.
And if you do figure out at some point that it's rude to keep on and on and on criticizing this discussion, and you continue to do it, that will not be subjective. If you yourself know that what your'e doing is rude, it won't matter if a hundred others claim not to be offended.
-=-If I take a cupcake and fling it at the birthday boy, he may think it is
funny as hell and laugh his way into the pool to wash off, whereas his mom
may think this was rude and inappropriate. Who makes the ultimate call as
to whether the boy who flinged the cupcake goes home or stays? The kid who
is laughing with his face covered in cupcake or the angry mom?-=-
There is no ultimate call. The mother's opinion is more valid if she made the cupcakes or you're throwing food at her son in her home. The son's opinion might be valid for him, but he might feel differently when he has some time to think about it.
An adult who gets frosting on a child at his own birthday party, and who causes (or allows) him to wash it off in the pool instead of helping him get it off with a napkin seems to me to be an irresponsible bully.
If you hosted the party, and you made the cupcakes, and it was your pool, that makes it somewhat different. Somewhat. It depends on the child. And if you're not an adult who believes there is such a thing as good judgment, you probably shouldn't be throwing food at anyone, ever, under any circumstances.
-=-A dog bite received as a child often results in extreme caution of
four-legged furry creatures encountered in the present. What results is a
feeling of insecurity around all four-leggeds, a feeling of inadequacy to
face the situation when running into a four-legged based on the past
experience.-=-
But a child who has not been bitten is not living in a world where dogs never bite.
Your logic is very flawed and your examples are not helpful for others trying to understand unschooling.
-=-When we judge, we look outside of ourselves to what should or shouldn‚t be
happening, we are interpreting what happened now in light of what happened
back then.-=-
When you think, the thoughts should be based on everything you know. That's what experience and wisdom are about. People who are more careful thinkers, and who have had more practice with it, can sometimes think better than those who are newer, younger, or who deny half of the tools they could be using.
You should ALWAYS interpret what's happening in the light of everything you know.
Sandra
weighing children down with adult baggage.
-=-If I am a wreck and my discernment guides me to remove myself from being
with my children because I deem it inappropriate to be around them with my
baggage, then I will.-=-
All those words and special definitions are likely putting a thick layer of noise between you and your children.
They're causing you to have a problem with the information in this discussion.
If your discernment guides you to do ANYthing, then you're not making decisions.
Discernment is perception. It's being able to tell a good thing from a bad thing.
You (or whatever book you might be reading) can't really change the meaning of a perfectly good English word.
To be judgmental is to be negative and frustrated--it's a negative term for someone who finds fault habitually.
To use good judgment is not negative. It doesn't need any frustration. It's not a negative.
If you don't have good judgment, you can't use discernment.
-=-However, I will not lie or shroud the event in some false pretense, -=-
See how you've judged others who aren't like you to be SHROUDING events in false (dishonest PRETENSE? TOO thoroughly dark and negative.
-=-Rude or not rude is a judgment and in being so, is subjective.-=-
To some extent that's true. There are cultural realties--hand gestures, belching, the order of entering or leaving a room, seitting postures, greetings--that can be rude or not depending on the surroundings. There are cultural realities in our own culture. Anyone who acts the very same way at a wedding and a funeral needs to stop going to public events.
Because SOME behavior is subjective doesn't mean that all behavior is.
And if you do figure out at some point that it's rude to keep on and on and on criticizing this discussion, and you continue to do it, that will not be subjective. If you yourself know that what your'e doing is rude, it won't matter if a hundred others claim not to be offended.
-=-If I take a cupcake and fling it at the birthday boy, he may think it is
funny as hell and laugh his way into the pool to wash off, whereas his mom
may think this was rude and inappropriate. Who makes the ultimate call as
to whether the boy who flinged the cupcake goes home or stays? The kid who
is laughing with his face covered in cupcake or the angry mom?-=-
There is no ultimate call. The mother's opinion is more valid if she made the cupcakes or you're throwing food at her son in her home. The son's opinion might be valid for him, but he might feel differently when he has some time to think about it.
An adult who gets frosting on a child at his own birthday party, and who causes (or allows) him to wash it off in the pool instead of helping him get it off with a napkin seems to me to be an irresponsible bully.
If you hosted the party, and you made the cupcakes, and it was your pool, that makes it somewhat different. Somewhat. It depends on the child. And if you're not an adult who believes there is such a thing as good judgment, you probably shouldn't be throwing food at anyone, ever, under any circumstances.
-=-A dog bite received as a child often results in extreme caution of
four-legged furry creatures encountered in the present. What results is a
feeling of insecurity around all four-leggeds, a feeling of inadequacy to
face the situation when running into a four-legged based on the past
experience.-=-
But a child who has not been bitten is not living in a world where dogs never bite.
Your logic is very flawed and your examples are not helpful for others trying to understand unschooling.
-=-When we judge, we look outside of ourselves to what should or shouldn‚t be
happening, we are interpreting what happened now in light of what happened
back then.-=-
When you think, the thoughts should be based on everything you know. That's what experience and wisdom are about. People who are more careful thinkers, and who have had more practice with it, can sometimes think better than those who are newer, younger, or who deny half of the tools they could be using.
You should ALWAYS interpret what's happening in the light of everything you know.
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
On Nov 19, 2012, at 11:25 AM, Nadine Toppozada wrote:
(Which is likely to happen on a list where people may dip in when they have time. There's no requirement to read every word every day. There's no requirement to learn a new language to read this list. People should be able to jump in anytime.)
Too many people grew up having to shove down their feelings and thoughts. They are looking for permission to finally express exactly what they feel without censorship. The concepts of "authentic" and "transparent" seemingly tell them, "Say whatever you feel and believe. Don't hide who you are." People will read into the words what they need them to mean.
That the words mean something else to you is problematic when the goal on this list is being as clear as possible to a diverse and always changing readership. To use the words as you're using them, would mean studying a whole 'nother philosophy in addition to unschooling. Then working to dump a load of baggage to take on that point of view.
Passing meaning onto others as cleanly as possible is why people are urged to use plain English. It's bad enough "unschooling" conjures up false images ;-) People want to throw in RU, authentic, edutainment, attachment, freedom, rights ...
Unschooling ideas are hard enough to understand. It won't help to label new concepts with common words. It won't help to label them with new words either! Best to begin where people are likely to be and build an understanding of unschooling using what they already know.
Discernment is a good word. My dictionary says "the ability to judge." :-)
But it also goes on to say "(in Christian contexts) perception in the absence of judgment with a view to obtaining spiritual direction and understanding."
Even if you've pulled it out to give it a secular meaning, that adds another layer of philosophy to the concept "discernment" is being used as a label for. It won't help people unschool to expect them to learn a bunch of new ways of using common words to understand what we're saying here.
Discernment should allow a parent to decide each time what's better.
I know that's not what you mean. But what you said is the choices are between being "authentic" and lying.
For a parent, making a good choice in a crisis is good. But for unschooling the larger focus should be on finding ways to not repeat the same choices that led to a crisis. Be proactive. The more a mom can do to avoid being a wreck, the more peaceful life can be, and the better she and the kids will handle the times when the downward slide catches mom by surprise.
In terms of living peacefully with each other, in terms of helping out kids live peacefully with others, it won't help to see people's feelings as reactions to subjective judgements.
Whether I'm right that something was rude or not, isn't the issue! The issue is avoiding doing what is likely to cause others distress.
If a hostess feels someone is upsetting her guests, she is right in asking them to leave.
Feelings are what count in getting along with others, not the rightness or wrongness of their judging or their judgement. That's the world unschooling kids will be released into.
Is it the label of rudeness that you're trying to avoid? Are you saying look at the feelings, not at the judgement of what caused those feelings? Is that where the hang up is?
It's a lot of words and twisty thoughts to prevent a common word from stirring baggage. Much simpler to work at letting go of the emotional baggage that gets stirred up by the thought of being judged. Not simple! But more straightforward.
If it works for you, if your kids are happy, keep doing it. But for an unschooling list, straightforward ideas are better than tacking on an additional philosophy.
But if it's causing you to think it means you shouldn't help your son use better judgment about cupcakes then your quest to avoid judging and it's emotional (for you) baggage isn't helping you live peacefully with the rest of the world that *is* judging and reacting with real feelings based on those judgements.
Joyce
> Authenticity and transparency to me do not mean tossing out discernment andAnd yet dumping baggage on kids and passers by is what happens when people adopt those concepts casually.
> weighing children down with adult baggage.
(Which is likely to happen on a list where people may dip in when they have time. There's no requirement to read every word every day. There's no requirement to learn a new language to read this list. People should be able to jump in anytime.)
Too many people grew up having to shove down their feelings and thoughts. They are looking for permission to finally express exactly what they feel without censorship. The concepts of "authentic" and "transparent" seemingly tell them, "Say whatever you feel and believe. Don't hide who you are." People will read into the words what they need them to mean.
That the words mean something else to you is problematic when the goal on this list is being as clear as possible to a diverse and always changing readership. To use the words as you're using them, would mean studying a whole 'nother philosophy in addition to unschooling. Then working to dump a load of baggage to take on that point of view.
Passing meaning onto others as cleanly as possible is why people are urged to use plain English. It's bad enough "unschooling" conjures up false images ;-) People want to throw in RU, authentic, edutainment, attachment, freedom, rights ...
Unschooling ideas are hard enough to understand. It won't help to label new concepts with common words. It won't help to label them with new words either! Best to begin where people are likely to be and build an understanding of unschooling using what they already know.
> If I am a wreck and my discernment guides me to remove myself from beingWhich is a twisty way of avoiding the word judge that seems to hold too much baggage for you.
> with my children because I deem it inappropriate to be around them with my
> baggage, then I will.
Discernment is a good word. My dictionary says "the ability to judge." :-)
But it also goes on to say "(in Christian contexts) perception in the absence of judgment with a view to obtaining spiritual direction and understanding."
Even if you've pulled it out to give it a secular meaning, that adds another layer of philosophy to the concept "discernment" is being used as a label for. It won't help people unschool to expect them to learn a bunch of new ways of using common words to understand what we're saying here.
> However, I will not lie or shroud the event in some false pretense, I willThose are your only two choices: being authentic or lying?
> be authentic and transparent, announcing that I am not ok right now and I
> think it best if I remove myself, rather than lying.
Discernment should allow a parent to decide each time what's better.
I know that's not what you mean. But what you said is the choices are between being "authentic" and lying.
For a parent, making a good choice in a crisis is good. But for unschooling the larger focus should be on finding ways to not repeat the same choices that led to a crisis. Be proactive. The more a mom can do to avoid being a wreck, the more peaceful life can be, and the better she and the kids will handle the times when the downward slide catches mom by surprise.
> Rude or not rude is a judgment and in being so, is subjective.But my feelings aren't subjective. They're real yucky feelings. If someone did something that created those yucky feelings, and they dismiss my judgment of their actions as subjective, that's going to make me even more upset!
In terms of living peacefully with each other, in terms of helping out kids live peacefully with others, it won't help to see people's feelings as reactions to subjective judgements.
Whether I'm right that something was rude or not, isn't the issue! The issue is avoiding doing what is likely to cause others distress.
> If I take a cupcake and fling it at the birthday boy, he may think it isMade up situations aren't good for clear discussions. Real people have reasons for what they do and what they feel. Pretend people can be twisted into whatever point someone wants to make.
> funny as hell and laugh his way into the pool to wash off, whereas his mom
> may think this was rude and inappropriate. Who makes the ultimate call as
> to whether the boy who flinged the cupcake goes home or stays? The kid who
> is laughing with his face covered in cupcake or the angry mom?
If a hostess feels someone is upsetting her guests, she is right in asking them to leave.
Feelings are what count in getting along with others, not the rightness or wrongness of their judging or their judgement. That's the world unschooling kids will be released into.
>> So a judgment of rudeness or hurtfulness means the other person isNo. If my guests are upset that your child is flinging cupcakes causing other kids to fling cupcakes and you're not stopping your son, that means I'm insecure or inadequate?
>> feeling insecure or inadequate?<<
>
> A dog bite received ....
Is it the label of rudeness that you're trying to avoid? Are you saying look at the feelings, not at the judgement of what caused those feelings? Is that where the hang up is?
It's a lot of words and twisty thoughts to prevent a common word from stirring baggage. Much simpler to work at letting go of the emotional baggage that gets stirred up by the thought of being judged. Not simple! But more straightforward.
If it works for you, if your kids are happy, keep doing it. But for an unschooling list, straightforward ideas are better than tacking on an additional philosophy.
> When we judge, we look outside of ourselves to what should or shouldn‚t beIf it helps you treat your children better, if it helps you treat others better to think of it that way, then keep doing it.
> happening, we are interpreting what happened now in light of what happened
> back then.
But if it's causing you to think it means you shouldn't help your son use better judgment about cupcakes then your quest to avoid judging and it's emotional (for you) baggage isn't helping you live peacefully with the rest of the world that *is* judging and reacting with real feelings based on those judgements.
Joyce