Unsupportive family members
louise.king76
Has anyone had to deal with members of family of origin who are against Home Education?
We are really struggling right now with my father, who is a retired State teacher. Up until my daughter was 11 yrs he was very supportive but because we did not put her in secondary school this September he is freaking out and being rude and aggressive.
He is demanding to know what "PLAN" we have in place for his granddaughter's education, he is convinved that children need to go to school to have a secure future. We have tried to talk to him about it reasonably but even with all the reasons and evidence we give him, he just comes back saying we are "Wrong".
We are feeling shaken by his aggressive tone and stubboness. His beliefs about education are shocking to hear and it's obvious these are all his own fears. He has no interest in really "Listening or Hearing" us or even agreeing to disagree.
We would be grateful if anyone could offer advice, maybe based on their own experience on how to more forward. Do we stop visiting him and the children lose their granddad just because we home educated, that seems sad.
Louise
We are really struggling right now with my father, who is a retired State teacher. Up until my daughter was 11 yrs he was very supportive but because we did not put her in secondary school this September he is freaking out and being rude and aggressive.
He is demanding to know what "PLAN" we have in place for his granddaughter's education, he is convinved that children need to go to school to have a secure future. We have tried to talk to him about it reasonably but even with all the reasons and evidence we give him, he just comes back saying we are "Wrong".
We are feeling shaken by his aggressive tone and stubboness. His beliefs about education are shocking to hear and it's obvious these are all his own fears. He has no interest in really "Listening or Hearing" us or even agreeing to disagree.
We would be grateful if anyone could offer advice, maybe based on their own experience on how to more forward. Do we stop visiting him and the children lose their granddad just because we home educated, that seems sad.
Louise
Sandra Dodd
-=-We are really struggling ...-=-
Don't struggle.
-=-He is demanding to know what "PLAN" we have in place-=-
"Demanding"? Did he ask nicely and were you not able to articulate it?
There have been discussions about this just lately. I fhey weren't on this list, they were probably on a related page at facebook. I'm really sorry I need to leave the house for a while, but maybe others could bring links and advice from the past week's discussions here for Louise. If they're posts from Always Learning, you can link to a post by going into the archive and cutting and pasting the URL when you've opened the post you want to link.
Pam Laricchia's book is my first and best recommendation for relatives, though.
http://livingjoyfully.ca
and maybe articles here:
http://unschooling.blogspot.com
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Don't struggle.
-=-He is demanding to know what "PLAN" we have in place-=-
"Demanding"? Did he ask nicely and were you not able to articulate it?
There have been discussions about this just lately. I fhey weren't on this list, they were probably on a related page at facebook. I'm really sorry I need to leave the house for a while, but maybe others could bring links and advice from the past week's discussions here for Louise. If they're posts from Always Learning, you can link to a post by going into the archive and cutting and pasting the URL when you've opened the post you want to link.
Pam Laricchia's book is my first and best recommendation for relatives, though.
http://livingjoyfully.ca
and maybe articles here:
http://unschooling.blogspot.com
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vicki Dennis
In the early 90's we dealt with my father's concerns about his
grandchildren. Since we had moved him into a mobile home on our property
after my mother's death (after several months of me basically having two
residences to take care of him 200 miles away) the concerns were very
"close up".
It helped when I shared just how much schools (in this area at least) had
changed since I attended. We did "give in" and let my father assume the
expenses and a new school wardrobe and enrolled the oldest in 7th grade. My
son "wanted" to attend. I believe he and his grandfather "partnered" to
"lobby" for the agreement. My son wanted to meet girls and was able to
accomplish that within the first few days. He stayed in public school a
little over a year and by that time my father was saying he wished he had
never pushed for it. That he simply could not imagine how students were
treated (like prisoners).
If your father lives in a different city, you might explain to him that HE
would not want his granddaughter in the schools in your area. You also
might encourage him to volunteer in his local middle school (or whatever
the current name is for your daughter's grade level) and imagine his
granddaughter interacting in the lunchroom and hallways. Although I was a
very longtime critic of "school" , I was horrified just walking in the
hall of the school my son attended. The toxic atmosphere was far worse
than anything I had imagined.
I think you should continue visiting him although being ever willing to cut
the visits short if he becomes rude and aggressive about ANY subject.
Good for him to see that his granddaughter continues to develop into a
responsible citizen . I think it good for these visits to take place
during what would typically be "school days". I know families in which the
fact of more frequent access to the children was a huge positive for
homeschooling. My opinion is that it is fine for you as a parent to
explain to ANYONE that part of your job is protecting your child. And
that you will not keep your child in an environment where someone is rude
and aggressive. Doesn't matter if the behavior is focused DIRECTLY on the
child or on someone the child loves (you).
Short version: sometimes the best way to deal is "How about them Giants?,
Pass the Dip please"
vicki
grandchildren. Since we had moved him into a mobile home on our property
after my mother's death (after several months of me basically having two
residences to take care of him 200 miles away) the concerns were very
"close up".
It helped when I shared just how much schools (in this area at least) had
changed since I attended. We did "give in" and let my father assume the
expenses and a new school wardrobe and enrolled the oldest in 7th grade. My
son "wanted" to attend. I believe he and his grandfather "partnered" to
"lobby" for the agreement. My son wanted to meet girls and was able to
accomplish that within the first few days. He stayed in public school a
little over a year and by that time my father was saying he wished he had
never pushed for it. That he simply could not imagine how students were
treated (like prisoners).
If your father lives in a different city, you might explain to him that HE
would not want his granddaughter in the schools in your area. You also
might encourage him to volunteer in his local middle school (or whatever
the current name is for your daughter's grade level) and imagine his
granddaughter interacting in the lunchroom and hallways. Although I was a
very longtime critic of "school" , I was horrified just walking in the
hall of the school my son attended. The toxic atmosphere was far worse
than anything I had imagined.
I think you should continue visiting him although being ever willing to cut
the visits short if he becomes rude and aggressive about ANY subject.
Good for him to see that his granddaughter continues to develop into a
responsible citizen . I think it good for these visits to take place
during what would typically be "school days". I know families in which the
fact of more frequent access to the children was a huge positive for
homeschooling. My opinion is that it is fine for you as a parent to
explain to ANYONE that part of your job is protecting your child. And
that you will not keep your child in an environment where someone is rude
and aggressive. Doesn't matter if the behavior is focused DIRECTLY on the
child or on someone the child loves (you).
Short version: sometimes the best way to deal is "How about them Giants?,
Pass the Dip please"
vicki
On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 10:14 AM, louise.king76 <louise.j.king@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
>
> Has anyone had to deal with members of family of origin who are against
> Home Education?
> We are really struggling right now with my father, who is a retired State
> teacher. Up until my daughter was 11 yrs he was very supportive but because
> we did not put her in secondary school this September he is freaking out
> and being rude and aggressive.
>
> He is demanding to know what "PLAN" we have in place for his
> granddaughter's education, he is convinved that children need to go to
> school to have a secure future. We have tried to talk to him about it
> reasonably but even with all the reasons and evidence we give him, he just
> comes back saying we are "Wrong".
> We are feeling shaken by his aggressive tone and stubboness. His beliefs
> about education are shocking to hear and it's obvious these are all his own
> fears. He has no interest in really "Listening or Hearing" us or even
> agreeing to disagree.
>
> We would be grateful if anyone could offer advice, maybe based on their
> own experience on how to more forward. Do we stop visiting him and the
> children lose their granddad just because we home educated, that seems sad.
>
> Louise
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"louise.king76" <louise.j.king@...> wrote:
It doesn't have to be permanent or even acrimonious. If the kids are uncomfortable visiting him, then take a break from that for awhile. If he asks, you have other plans that day. Sometimes it can be helpful to come right out and say "you can't see the kids if you're going to behave badly" - it will depend on the specific details of your family relationships though.
If he's not hassling the kids, though, maybe You could take a break from visiting him - if the kids are okay seeing him without you.
---Meredith
> Do we stop visiting him and the children lose their granddad just because we home educated, that seems sad.***************
It doesn't have to be permanent or even acrimonious. If the kids are uncomfortable visiting him, then take a break from that for awhile. If he asks, you have other plans that day. Sometimes it can be helpful to come right out and say "you can't see the kids if you're going to behave badly" - it will depend on the specific details of your family relationships though.
If he's not hassling the kids, though, maybe You could take a break from visiting him - if the kids are okay seeing him without you.
---Meredith
CASS KOTRBA
There is a great documentary running this week on the Documentary Channel, if you are fortunate enough to get that channel, called "The War on Kids." It was very interesting and did a great job making the case for unschooling. It features interviews with children and experienced professionals about the difficult conditions children are forced to endure and compares the experience children face today to those of past generations. It might be a helpful tool in enlightening a person from a different generation. To purchase the video it's $20 but even the trailer is informative: http://www.thewaronkids.com/<http://www.thewaronkids.com/>.
-Cass
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-Cass
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary Whited
Oh, fantastic! It's available on Netflix streaming right now. :)
Thanks.
Mary
Thanks.
Mary
On Tuesday, October 30, 2012, CASS KOTRBA wrote:
> **
>
>
> There is a great documentary running this week on the Documentary Channel,
> if you are fortunate enough to get that channel, called "The War on Kids."
>
>
Reply via web
post<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxZTU2ZjVkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ0MTAyNTAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NTQyMTExBG1zZ0lkAzY5NTI5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1MTYyNDYxNg--?act=reply&messageNum=69529>
Reply
> to sender <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> 'Sandra@...?subject\x3dRe%3A%20%5BAlwaysLearning%5D%20Re%3A%20Unsupportive%20family%20members');> Reply
> to group <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> '[email protected]?subject\x3dRe%3A%20%5BAlwaysLearning%5D%20Re%3A%20Unsupportive%20family%20members');> Start
> a New Topic<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcXRkNHV2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ0MTAyNTAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NTQyMTExBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1MTYyNDYxNg--> Messages
> in this topic<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/69517;_ylc=X3oDMTM2ZXVodGdoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ0MTAyNTAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NTQyMTExBG1zZ0lkAzY5NTI5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1MTYyNDYxNgR0cGNJZAM2OTUxNw-->(5)
> Recent Activity:
>
> - New Members<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmMzl2cTRkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ0MTAyNTAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NTQyMTExBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzNTE2MjQ2MTY-?o=6>
> 15
>
> Visit Your Group<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNWJxcXFzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ0MTAyNTAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NTQyMTExBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1MTYyNDYxNg-->
> [image: Yahoo! Groups]<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkcG81ZnU5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ0MTAyNTAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NTQyMTExBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzUxNjI0NjE2>
> Switch to: Text-Only <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> '[email protected]?subject\x3dChange+Delivery+Format:+Traditional');>,
> Daily Digest <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> '[email protected]?subject\x3dEmail+Delivery:+Digest');>�
> Unsubscribe <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> '[email protected]?subject\x3dUnsubscribe');> �
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
casouthworth
>>>>>>>There is a great documentary running this week on the Documentary Channel, if you are fortunate enough to get that channel, called "The War on Kids." It was very interesting and did a great job making the case for unschooling. It features interviews with children and experienced professionals about the difficult conditions children are forced to endure and compares the experience children face today to those of past generations. It might be a helpful tool in enlightening a person from a different generation. <<<<<<<I have this documentary on DVD and have watched it with a variety of people. The movie is a bit sensationalist. I did a bunch of fact checking on the movie and everything is accurate but one of the things that I have seen happen in watching it with others is that it makes the people that already hate school hate it even more. People that are very pro school may walk away from watching this movie feeling a bit attacked. There are so many other positive resources out there that would be so much better to share with doubting family members.
I don't think the movie makes the case for unschooling at all. It attempts to expose a bunch of problems with schools but it does not provide any alternatives nor does it make the case for anything else. One of the things that I have found more helpful than anything is to try to stay positive. I can make a case for unschooling or homeschooling without attacking or discrediting schools.
Connie
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 30, 2012, at 2:59 PM, CASS KOTRBA wrote:
There are all sorts of horrible messages about school out there. And have been since the 60s when the big push to get kids into college began. Yet droves of parents still choose school. That speaks volumes about how fearful parents are that their kids can't get what they need for their kids: the stuff that schools teach.
You'd think schools failing, kids suffering would make parents abandon schools. But it has the opposite effect. It says that if the experts can't get what kids need into them, it must be a near impossible task. Which makes parents feel even more dependent on the schools. :-/
Which is why unschooling is unlikely to be seen as an alternative to school. Because it isn't a better way to get school knowledge into kids. What parents want is school without the bad parts. But they're willing to put up with -- well, force their kids to put up with -- the bad parts to get what they're absolutely convinced is essential for future security.
Until parents understand that the knowledge schools push into kids isn't what kids need to succeed, parents will cling to schools. And I don't see that realization happening any time soon. The process may be torture for the kids but companies aren't shutting their doors to them in massive number and saying they want unschooled kids instead. Companies are, though, choosing Chinese and Indian technical graduates. Unfortunately the perception is the Chinese and Indians are doing school even better. The reality is more complex, but it reinforces the message that school is necessary for a secure job.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> It was very interesting and did a great job making the case for unschoolingParents aren't merely blindly choosing school. They choose school because it offers what they believe their kids need to have a secure future.
There are all sorts of horrible messages about school out there. And have been since the 60s when the big push to get kids into college began. Yet droves of parents still choose school. That speaks volumes about how fearful parents are that their kids can't get what they need for their kids: the stuff that schools teach.
You'd think schools failing, kids suffering would make parents abandon schools. But it has the opposite effect. It says that if the experts can't get what kids need into them, it must be a near impossible task. Which makes parents feel even more dependent on the schools. :-/
Which is why unschooling is unlikely to be seen as an alternative to school. Because it isn't a better way to get school knowledge into kids. What parents want is school without the bad parts. But they're willing to put up with -- well, force their kids to put up with -- the bad parts to get what they're absolutely convinced is essential for future security.
Until parents understand that the knowledge schools push into kids isn't what kids need to succeed, parents will cling to schools. And I don't see that realization happening any time soon. The process may be torture for the kids but companies aren't shutting their doors to them in massive number and saying they want unschooled kids instead. Companies are, though, choosing Chinese and Indian technical graduates. Unfortunately the perception is the Chinese and Indians are doing school even better. The reality is more complex, but it reinforces the message that school is necessary for a secure job.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
louise.king76
I sent this wonderful TED talk/animation by Sir Ken Robinson to my Dad. He just dismissed it.
I think some people are so stuck in their beliefs and fears it's impossible to reach them. Thank you to you all for your supportive words. My daughter is producing her own CD of her flute playing with a friend of ours who is a professional musician....this will be her granddad's christmas present!
Sorry, not sure how to make this link "live" on yahoo but it's really worth seeing if you haven't already.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U
Louise
I think some people are so stuck in their beliefs and fears it's impossible to reach them. Thank you to you all for your supportive words. My daughter is producing her own CD of her flute playing with a friend of ours who is a professional musician....this will be her granddad's christmas present!
Sorry, not sure how to make this link "live" on yahoo but it's really worth seeing if you haven't already.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U
Louise
--- In [email protected], "CASS KOTRBA" <caskot@...> wrote:
>
> There is a great documentary running this week on the Documentary Channel, if you are fortunate enough to get that channel, called "The War on Kids." It was very interesting and did a great job making the case for unschooling. It features interviews with children and experienced professionals about the difficult conditions children are forced to endure and compares the experience children face today to those of past generations. It might be a helpful tool in enlightening a person from a different generation. To purchase the video it's $20 but even the trailer is informative: http://www.thewaronkids.com/<http://www.thewaronkids.com/>.
>
> -Cass
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Parents aren't merely blindly choosing school. They choose school because it offers what they believe their kids need to have a secure future.-=-
I don't think this is true of most parents, Joyce. We frequently hear people say they didn't know there were options. Or that they didn't nkow that there were homeschoolers who weren't fundamentalist Christians.
MANY parents choose school when they know full well that there are more structured and less structured options, and they could afford to choose them.
Many more parents put their kids in school because they were made to go to school and they are immersed in families and social groups and neighborhoods where going with the flow, the status quo, is the only thing they're going to consider. They don't want to think hard. They don't want to inquire or to be critical in their view of what's going on.
Many people are persuaded by their own lives that if they had worked harder on their homework, they would be making more money. So they press their child into the same chute, with more pressure.
-=-There are all sorts of horrible messages about school out there. -=-
It's easy to ignore them, to avoid them, or to say "bad parenting," or "video games" or "our school district is better than *that* one.
-=-You'd think schools failing, kids suffering would make parents abandon schools. But it has the opposite effect. It says that if the experts can't get what kids need into them, it must be a near impossible task. Which makes parents feel even more dependent on the schools. :-/-=-
I agree with that, for sure, but I think the majority of people don't feel qualified to question the pro-school messages all around them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't think this is true of most parents, Joyce. We frequently hear people say they didn't know there were options. Or that they didn't nkow that there were homeschoolers who weren't fundamentalist Christians.
MANY parents choose school when they know full well that there are more structured and less structured options, and they could afford to choose them.
Many more parents put their kids in school because they were made to go to school and they are immersed in families and social groups and neighborhoods where going with the flow, the status quo, is the only thing they're going to consider. They don't want to think hard. They don't want to inquire or to be critical in their view of what's going on.
Many people are persuaded by their own lives that if they had worked harder on their homework, they would be making more money. So they press their child into the same chute, with more pressure.
-=-There are all sorts of horrible messages about school out there. -=-
It's easy to ignore them, to avoid them, or to say "bad parenting," or "video games" or "our school district is better than *that* one.
-=-You'd think schools failing, kids suffering would make parents abandon schools. But it has the opposite effect. It says that if the experts can't get what kids need into them, it must be a near impossible task. Which makes parents feel even more dependent on the schools. :-/-=-
I agree with that, for sure, but I think the majority of people don't feel qualified to question the pro-school messages all around them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 31, 2012, at 9:36 AM, louise.king76 wrote:
Hmm, sounds like a familiar philosophy that gets batted around on this list. ;-)
It sounds a bit hypocritical to pressure someone to learn that pressuring people to learn isn't the best way to learn ;-)
What has he seen that would intrigue *him* enough to want to know more about what you're doing? The more confident and happy you are in what you're doing, the less you're invested in him understanding and approving, the more likely he'll get intrigued. It's not a guarantee but it's more likely to work than pressure.
That sounds familiar too!
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I think some people are so stuck in their beliefs and fears it's impossible to reach them.I think making someone learn something against their will is a good path to failure.
Hmm, sounds like a familiar philosophy that gets batted around on this list. ;-)
It sounds a bit hypocritical to pressure someone to learn that pressuring people to learn isn't the best way to learn ;-)
What has he seen that would intrigue *him* enough to want to know more about what you're doing? The more confident and happy you are in what you're doing, the less you're invested in him understanding and approving, the more likely he'll get intrigued. It's not a guarantee but it's more likely to work than pressure.
That sounds familiar too!
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=It sounds a bit hypocritical to pressure someone to learn that pressuring people to learn isn't the best way to learn ;-)
-=-What has he seen that would intrigue *him* enough to want to know more about what you're doing? The more confident and happy you are in what you're doing, the less you're invested in him understanding and approving, the more likely he'll get intrigued. It's not a guarantee but it's more likely to work than pressure.-=-
Ironic, maybe. And hypocritical.
But when someone is pressuring me and attempting to shame me, I have zero hesitation about pointing out that I know more about it than they do, but if they're wiling to read some introductory material I would be glad to discuss that with them. Otherwise, they're not qualified to discuss unschooling.
It's harsh, but not as harsh as being bullied for years by someone unwilling to read some.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-What has he seen that would intrigue *him* enough to want to know more about what you're doing? The more confident and happy you are in what you're doing, the less you're invested in him understanding and approving, the more likely he'll get intrigued. It's not a guarantee but it's more likely to work than pressure.-=-
Ironic, maybe. And hypocritical.
But when someone is pressuring me and attempting to shame me, I have zero hesitation about pointing out that I know more about it than they do, but if they're wiling to read some introductory material I would be glad to discuss that with them. Otherwise, they're not qualified to discuss unschooling.
It's harsh, but not as harsh as being bullied for years by someone unwilling to read some.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 31, 2012, at 12:07 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
The people we hear from on the list are self selected and not most parents. They want alternatives to school. I don't know what percentage of parents do. It would be interesting to know.
I do know I'm surrounded by parents who do care about their kids educations but who for the most part want schools to do better at being school, not alternatives to school.
What causes people to consider other options in anything? Or not consider other options?
Sometimes it's wanting a different goal. Sometimes it's damage or disappointment with the quality. Sometimes it's curiosity.
It's a matter of weighing the risk of change against the energy needed to change against what they'll gain. The risk and energy just seems to high for most people and the gain is unknown. Which is why most people aren't going to question. Most don't want something different. And the damage often has to reach the "last straw" point to push some people into looking elsewhere.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I don't think this is true of most parents, Joyce.True, I live in a very academic oriented area. There's a lot of focus on school performance here. It's the land of $10,000 a year preschools with wait lists and admission requirements.
> We frequently hear people say they didn't know there were options.
The people we hear from on the list are self selected and not most parents. They want alternatives to school. I don't know what percentage of parents do. It would be interesting to know.
I do know I'm surrounded by parents who do care about their kids educations but who for the most part want schools to do better at being school, not alternatives to school.
> they are immersed in families and social groups and neighborhoodsA lot of that is fear, I think. If you stick with what everyone else is doing at least you can't screw up worse than anyone else. If someone lacks the confidence that they can do better, sticking with the tried and true seems the path of least likely to fail. (And that lack of confidence is why it's so important that kids have the opportunity to make choices so they don't need experts to tell them the right way to look at things.)
> where going with the flow, the status quo, is the only thing they're going to consider.
What causes people to consider other options in anything? Or not consider other options?
Sometimes it's wanting a different goal. Sometimes it's damage or disappointment with the quality. Sometimes it's curiosity.
It's a matter of weighing the risk of change against the energy needed to change against what they'll gain. The risk and energy just seems to high for most people and the gain is unknown. Which is why most people aren't going to question. Most don't want something different. And the damage often has to reach the "last straw" point to push some people into looking elsewhere.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]