3 y.o. and breast grabbing
teresa
I've lived with this one for months, wanting so much to post. It's not unschooling, being that my son is 3 years and 9 months old, but it is challenging me at being a peaceful parent. I'm hoping some of you may have some ideas about how to handle this one well and keep things good between my little boy and me.
I'm having a lot of difficult feelings about him grabbing my breasts, fondling my breasts, smacking me in the breast, burying his face in my breasts, and reaching into my clothes to "bounce" my breasts. (I know--it seems so silly typed out like this! But truly, I'm struggling, because in the moment, it's not always funny.) I have taken to wearing double sports-bras during the day to limit the physically jarring sensation, but that doesn't work all the time.
Fox weaned himself when he was just three, so about nine months ago now. I could tell almost right away that he wasn't sure about having stopped. But, I didn't offer for him to start back up again. I felt good about our breastfeeding relationship, and I felt good about stopping when we did. My milk was gone anyway, but he continues to sleep with me in bed. So, at first, I would just gently redirect him when he showed a lot of interest in my breasts, playing a silly game, getting out a toy we hadn't played with in a while, etc.
But I think Fox started picking up on my resistance to the attention he paid to my chest, because his demeanor began changing when he did it. He'd come up and grab my boob, then look up at me with a challenging expression. I'd say, "I don't like that. Touch me here (moving his hand to my arm, side, stomach)." And then try to move on to something light and fun, or offer to sit and cuddle him. But, the cuddles led to more grabs and squeezes, and taking his hands playfully to otherwise occupy them by giving them kisses playing a hand-clapping game do not fool him one bit.
He's a pretty independent little guy and likes to do his own thing a lot, but when he's ready for time together again, then it's all cuddles and climbing on me and sitting right next to me, as we watch TV together, read books, play with toys, go to the park, etc. That's lovely for us both. I give him lots of love when I walk by and he's playing by himself or with his brother. It seems like a good rhythm to our day of being together, him doing something else, being together, us all doing something together (6 y.o. brother, him, and me).
But almost inevitably, periods of physical contact go to the boob-grabbing place. I'm getting nowhere with distraction or words. And I usually just get up and walk away to do something else--get us both drinks, let the dogs in, get a book. I don't like breaking up what's a precious, sweet time for us, but I'm so uncomfortable! I am starting to cringe inwardly when he comes running into my lap, and I want desperately not to be in that mindset.
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Teresa
mama to Woody (almost 7) and Fox (3 years, 9 months)
http://honeyhousehomeschool.blogspot.com/
I'm having a lot of difficult feelings about him grabbing my breasts, fondling my breasts, smacking me in the breast, burying his face in my breasts, and reaching into my clothes to "bounce" my breasts. (I know--it seems so silly typed out like this! But truly, I'm struggling, because in the moment, it's not always funny.) I have taken to wearing double sports-bras during the day to limit the physically jarring sensation, but that doesn't work all the time.
Fox weaned himself when he was just three, so about nine months ago now. I could tell almost right away that he wasn't sure about having stopped. But, I didn't offer for him to start back up again. I felt good about our breastfeeding relationship, and I felt good about stopping when we did. My milk was gone anyway, but he continues to sleep with me in bed. So, at first, I would just gently redirect him when he showed a lot of interest in my breasts, playing a silly game, getting out a toy we hadn't played with in a while, etc.
But I think Fox started picking up on my resistance to the attention he paid to my chest, because his demeanor began changing when he did it. He'd come up and grab my boob, then look up at me with a challenging expression. I'd say, "I don't like that. Touch me here (moving his hand to my arm, side, stomach)." And then try to move on to something light and fun, or offer to sit and cuddle him. But, the cuddles led to more grabs and squeezes, and taking his hands playfully to otherwise occupy them by giving them kisses playing a hand-clapping game do not fool him one bit.
He's a pretty independent little guy and likes to do his own thing a lot, but when he's ready for time together again, then it's all cuddles and climbing on me and sitting right next to me, as we watch TV together, read books, play with toys, go to the park, etc. That's lovely for us both. I give him lots of love when I walk by and he's playing by himself or with his brother. It seems like a good rhythm to our day of being together, him doing something else, being together, us all doing something together (6 y.o. brother, him, and me).
But almost inevitably, periods of physical contact go to the boob-grabbing place. I'm getting nowhere with distraction or words. And I usually just get up and walk away to do something else--get us both drinks, let the dogs in, get a book. I don't like breaking up what's a precious, sweet time for us, but I'm so uncomfortable! I am starting to cringe inwardly when he comes running into my lap, and I want desperately not to be in that mindset.
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Teresa
mama to Woody (almost 7) and Fox (3 years, 9 months)
http://honeyhousehomeschool.blogspot.com/
Sandra Dodd
Have you tried a sharp NO! ?
It's your body. You said no. It shouldn't be negotiable.
Don't set an example that suggests to him that if a woman says no it's okay for him to keep pressuring her, or to grab even after she's said not to.
It's your body. You said no. It shouldn't be negotiable.
Don't set an example that suggests to him that if a woman says no it's okay for him to keep pressuring her, or to grab even after she's said not to.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 1, 2012, at 1:13 PM, teresa wrote:
Or it might be a power thing, wanting to test boundaries.
A clear No may be what he needs. Not angry. But firm. Don't send mixed messages. Perhaps add on if needed. "It's not fun unless we're both having fun." Then "Let's do something we can both enjoy."
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> He'd come up and grab my boob, then look up at me with a challenging expressionMy first thought is he's asking "Do you still love me even when I do this?"
Or it might be a power thing, wanting to test boundaries.
A clear No may be what he needs. Not angry. But firm. Don't send mixed messages. Perhaps add on if needed. "It's not fun unless we're both having fun." Then "Let's do something we can both enjoy."
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
teresa
I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that's exactly what he's asking...will you still love me when...? and testing the boundaries. But I'm fumbling with what to do with that.
As it is now, I almost always start with a sharp "No." (Sometimes followed by "I don't like that." or "That's uncomfortable.") That sometimes works for that moment--he'll stop touching my breast, but then gently lean his head on my shoulder, slowly, slowly, moving his hand or his head down again... At that point, I have told him I was going to put him down or leave the room if he kept touching me there, because I said no. Then, one of two things happens: he stops, because of my threat, or he doesn't, and I leave the room to do something else, with him usually grabbing at me as I go to keep me there with him.
It feels awful. I didn't start with this strategy, so maybe I let it go with the gentle redirection for too long and made things harder for myself. But I've been consistent with the "stops"--there's no point that I want to or even feel as if I *could* let things slide! But it has kept up. So, I find myself in that sharp/rejecting/growing-into-angry/frustrated place with him too often.
Teresa
As it is now, I almost always start with a sharp "No." (Sometimes followed by "I don't like that." or "That's uncomfortable.") That sometimes works for that moment--he'll stop touching my breast, but then gently lean his head on my shoulder, slowly, slowly, moving his hand or his head down again... At that point, I have told him I was going to put him down or leave the room if he kept touching me there, because I said no. Then, one of two things happens: he stops, because of my threat, or he doesn't, and I leave the room to do something else, with him usually grabbing at me as I go to keep me there with him.
It feels awful. I didn't start with this strategy, so maybe I let it go with the gentle redirection for too long and made things harder for myself. But I've been consistent with the "stops"--there's no point that I want to or even feel as if I *could* let things slide! But it has kept up. So, I find myself in that sharp/rejecting/growing-into-angry/frustrated place with him too often.
Teresa
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 1, 2012, at 1:13 PM, teresa wrote:
>
> > He'd come up and grab my boob, then look up at me with a challenging expression
>
> My first thought is he's asking "Do you still love me even when I do this?"
>
> Or it might be a power thing, wanting to test boundaries.
>
> A clear No may be what he needs. Not angry. But firm. Don't send mixed messages. Perhaps add on if needed. "It's not fun unless we're both having fun." Then "Let's do something we can both enjoy."
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
You might already have tried this, but you could tell him that there are some parts of bodies that can't be touched by other people.
The way we talked about those things here was that it wasn't okay for anyone to touch them in their private places, and it wasn't okay for them to touch other people there, either. And that if they were older and did that, it would be a crime, so to be very careful.
I don't think you should make him worry that it's a crime for him to touch you, but maybe in a funny way you could make an example, like if his dad touched your neighbor there, or if the mailman walked up and touched you there, or if the president of the United States touched the Queen of England there.... and maybe it the examples are silly and memorable he'll laugh, and remember, and not be offended.
Sandra
The way we talked about those things here was that it wasn't okay for anyone to touch them in their private places, and it wasn't okay for them to touch other people there, either. And that if they were older and did that, it would be a crime, so to be very careful.
I don't think you should make him worry that it's a crime for him to touch you, but maybe in a funny way you could make an example, like if his dad touched your neighbor there, or if the mailman walked up and touched you there, or if the president of the United States touched the Queen of England there.... and maybe it the examples are silly and memorable he'll laugh, and remember, and not be offended.
Sandra
Meredith
"teresa" <treesock@...> wrote:
I'm not sure that's necessarily true. It could be he's not really done nursing, or misses it and is grieving a bit. Have you offered to nurse again, or is that something you don't want to get into? Do you hold him and baby him as if you were nursing? That might be a kind of compromise, but I would expect it to involve him at least touching your breasts.
---Meredith
>*****************
> I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that's exactly what he's asking...will you still love me when...? and testing the boundaries.
I'm not sure that's necessarily true. It could be he's not really done nursing, or misses it and is grieving a bit. Have you offered to nurse again, or is that something you don't want to get into? Do you hold him and baby him as if you were nursing? That might be a kind of compromise, but I would expect it to involve him at least touching your breasts.
---Meredith
Theda Rogers
My daughter stopped nursing around 3 years/1 month, and I vaguely remember
something similar. I know that I had to cover up or else she wanted to
nurse or she wanted to play with them. At that age, I believe I told her,
"No, this is Mommy's body, and Mommy says no touching." Something to the
effect of "this is my body and I have the right to say how I want to be
touched." I taught her that for herself too. I didn't go into appropriate
vs. inappropriate because it wouldn't have made any sense to her yet. To
her, my breasts were the same as my hands or feet...just another part of my
body.
I might have also said something to the effect of, "If you're going to play
with my body, we're not going to XYZ." I'm not sure if that's unschooling
or not, since it's kind of a punishment, but it's also kind of a cause and
effect. If someone treats your body a certain way, you may not agree to
continue doing whatever it is. Rather than just walk away, make sure to say
WHY you're doing so. You may already be doing this (sorry if I'm repeating
something you've already tried.)
One thing I know for sure, it passes. To some extent (my daughter is now
7). She still thinks it's funny to touch my breasts, but it's only
sometimes. I don't make a big deal out of it, but I do tell her to stop. I
realize, though, that she finds comfort in them, even though nursing has
stopped. So I don't stop her right away. Also, she will go out of her way
to hug me sometimes...especially in the early years after weaning.
I think it's important to remember what our breasts meant to them,
especially when we nursed them for so long that they have a vivid memory of
nursing. They were comforting....like two hugs. They still need to
occasionally see and feel them and gradually let them go, like a security
blanket. Maybe consider allowing faux nursing (not suckling, just time to
hug or cuddle so that he can feel your breasts on his body hugging him or
something) a few times a day. Maybe promise that (please don't touch now,
but maybe later you can cuddle on them). Try to imagine how he's feeling
about them.
Hope this helps! I'm new here, so I hope I responded appropriately per the
guidelines (there were a lot!) :)
Theda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
something similar. I know that I had to cover up or else she wanted to
nurse or she wanted to play with them. At that age, I believe I told her,
"No, this is Mommy's body, and Mommy says no touching." Something to the
effect of "this is my body and I have the right to say how I want to be
touched." I taught her that for herself too. I didn't go into appropriate
vs. inappropriate because it wouldn't have made any sense to her yet. To
her, my breasts were the same as my hands or feet...just another part of my
body.
I might have also said something to the effect of, "If you're going to play
with my body, we're not going to XYZ." I'm not sure if that's unschooling
or not, since it's kind of a punishment, but it's also kind of a cause and
effect. If someone treats your body a certain way, you may not agree to
continue doing whatever it is. Rather than just walk away, make sure to say
WHY you're doing so. You may already be doing this (sorry if I'm repeating
something you've already tried.)
One thing I know for sure, it passes. To some extent (my daughter is now
7). She still thinks it's funny to touch my breasts, but it's only
sometimes. I don't make a big deal out of it, but I do tell her to stop. I
realize, though, that she finds comfort in them, even though nursing has
stopped. So I don't stop her right away. Also, she will go out of her way
to hug me sometimes...especially in the early years after weaning.
I think it's important to remember what our breasts meant to them,
especially when we nursed them for so long that they have a vivid memory of
nursing. They were comforting....like two hugs. They still need to
occasionally see and feel them and gradually let them go, like a security
blanket. Maybe consider allowing faux nursing (not suckling, just time to
hug or cuddle so that he can feel your breasts on his body hugging him or
something) a few times a day. Maybe promise that (please don't touch now,
but maybe later you can cuddle on them). Try to imagine how he's feeling
about them.
Hope this helps! I'm new here, so I hope I responded appropriately per the
guidelines (there were a lot!) :)
Theda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I might have also said something to the effect of, "If you're going to play
with my body, we're not going to XYZ." I'm not sure if that's unschooling
or not, since it's kind of a punishment, but it's also kind of a cause and
effect. -=-
The statement "I'm not sure if that's unschooling or not" isn't very useful. It's what you did. :-)
If you called it "playing with my body" that might have been confusing to her. If you play with each other's hair or fingers, that's playing.
"Cause and effect" isn't a good way to describe a punishment. Neither is "natural consequences."
I don't think it would be helpful in any way for a mother to say "I was going to take you to the park, but you played with my body. Now we'll stay home and be unhappy with each other." Or "We can't go to the movies now, because you touched my breast."
None of that sounds like a recommendation that will help the relationship between the mom and child.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
with my body, we're not going to XYZ." I'm not sure if that's unschooling
or not, since it's kind of a punishment, but it's also kind of a cause and
effect. -=-
The statement "I'm not sure if that's unschooling or not" isn't very useful. It's what you did. :-)
If you called it "playing with my body" that might have been confusing to her. If you play with each other's hair or fingers, that's playing.
"Cause and effect" isn't a good way to describe a punishment. Neither is "natural consequences."
I don't think it would be helpful in any way for a mother to say "I was going to take you to the park, but you played with my body. Now we'll stay home and be unhappy with each other." Or "We can't go to the movies now, because you touched my breast."
None of that sounds like a recommendation that will help the relationship between the mom and child.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
teresa
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
But there might be a testing the love/limits, too--he asked to nurse again a month or so after weaning, then a month or so after that, and I gave a gentle no. I bet that was a hard no to hear for him, and even harder to understand. I could see there being some lingering hard feelings about it, or at least confused and a little mad.
We do play baby a lot--he eats that up! And the laying on my breasts, hugging me at breast-level, I don't mind at all (when it stays at cuddling level and not grabbing), and I'm glad my children find security/comfort at my chest. Still, I don't think I want to offer to nurse him again. But I'll give it a think. In the far reaches of my mind I've thought, heck, that would probably solve this whole thing, and he might even turn it down once he discovers it's a possibility again. But, I'm not sure I want to start that back up.
Thanks, all, for these replies.
Teresa
mama to Woody (nearly 7) and Fox (3 years, 9 months)
>Maybe it's both. I went into detail about his weaning in my original post because I first thought it was mostly about his still wishing he nursed. He talks about it *a lot*, reminding me that he did nurse when he was a baby and little boy, telling me children he knows who nursed or still nurse, explaining how mommies nurse but daddies don't, etc.
> "teresa" <treesock@> wrote:
> >
> > I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that's exactly what he's asking...will you still love me when...? and testing the boundaries.
> *****************
>
> I'm not sure that's necessarily true. It could be he's not really done nursing, or misses it and is grieving a bit.
> ---Meredith
But there might be a testing the love/limits, too--he asked to nurse again a month or so after weaning, then a month or so after that, and I gave a gentle no. I bet that was a hard no to hear for him, and even harder to understand. I could see there being some lingering hard feelings about it, or at least confused and a little mad.
We do play baby a lot--he eats that up! And the laying on my breasts, hugging me at breast-level, I don't mind at all (when it stays at cuddling level and not grabbing), and I'm glad my children find security/comfort at my chest. Still, I don't think I want to offer to nurse him again. But I'll give it a think. In the far reaches of my mind I've thought, heck, that would probably solve this whole thing, and he might even turn it down once he discovers it's a possibility again. But, I'm not sure I want to start that back up.
Thanks, all, for these replies.
Teresa
mama to Woody (nearly 7) and Fox (3 years, 9 months)
zurro
<<Fox weaned himself when he was just three, so about nine months ago now. I could tell almost right away that he wasn't sure about having stopped. But, I didn't offer for him to start back up again. I felt good about our breastfeeding relationship, and I felt good about stopping when we did.>>
I think Meredith has a good point. I would suspect he isn't done either and you yourself stated that you weren't sure he was when he stopped but you did feel good about stopping. Is there any possibility that he really wasn't ready to wean but you pushed him in that direction because you were ready? If that's the case then I am not surprised that he is still looking for the comfort from nursing. Have you checked with La Leche League about strategies you could use so it's not so hard for him if he wasn't ready to wean?
Caitlyn nursed until just this past Winter when she turned 5 and weaned slowly on her own, but she still talks about our nursing relationship and how much she loved nursing. She also occasionally asked to nurse just for a moment for a couple of months after which I was able to work with.
Laura Z
I think Meredith has a good point. I would suspect he isn't done either and you yourself stated that you weren't sure he was when he stopped but you did feel good about stopping. Is there any possibility that he really wasn't ready to wean but you pushed him in that direction because you were ready? If that's the case then I am not surprised that he is still looking for the comfort from nursing. Have you checked with La Leche League about strategies you could use so it's not so hard for him if he wasn't ready to wean?
Caitlyn nursed until just this past Winter when she turned 5 and weaned slowly on her own, but she still talks about our nursing relationship and how much she loved nursing. She also occasionally asked to nurse just for a moment for a couple of months after which I was able to work with.
Laura Z
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> "teresa" <treesock@> wrote:
> >
> > I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that's exactly what he's asking...will you still love me when...? and testing the boundaries.
> *****************
>
> I'm not sure that's necessarily true. It could be he's not really done nursing, or misses it and is grieving a bit. Have you offered to nurse again, or is that something you don't want to get into? Do you hold him and baby him as if you were nursing? That might be a kind of compromise, but I would expect it to involve him at least touching your breasts.
>
> ---Meredith
>
ioana voiculescu
Hi Teresa,
My son is still nursing at almost 3 and 1/2 and I experience kinda the same things you do. Not that extreme, though, and I suppose that is because we still nurse. But the interest in breasts, in being extremely close to them, fondling them and loving them is there. Talking about it, too, and how men do not have them, but have nipples, and other women who have no children do not have milk in the breast, etc.. What I noticed is that my son understands very well the concept of another one's body or pain, so when I feel that I do not want him to do something I just explain. I do not know if all children are "the same" in that, because generalization on the base of age does not do very much good in other areas.. But with my son being around the same age, I will just tell you what works for us. You can take some of what I say and see how it feels for you.
My son loves the breast and he loves nursing - although I do not think I have much milk left.. He nurses especially at night and he wants to do it during the day when he is sleepy or scared. When during the day nursing is not possible or desirable (socially or for me) I just explain to him why that is not possible and mostly he just wants to be "by me", to compensate. At night, and especially in the morning when we wake up, he wants to play a lot with the breasts. With his hands, making circles, with his face against the bare breasts, you get the picture. And he wants to play with the nipple. Some of these things annoy me physically.. I do not have any problem with all this psychically or emotionally because I can sense his real need in closeness to the breasts. If I look at my son I see no testing of the boundaries, or asking if I still love him when he plays, just a pleasure of playing with something that is familiar and loved, soft and warm and mommy. When children nurse (for such a long time) they are attached to that kind of closeness and the breasts are a symbol for them. If I forbid my son to play (with the breasts) (or any other thing), it develops into a kind of mini obsession, to do it anyway possible. I think he is also transitioning to stopping with nursing and as the nursing subsides, the play with the breast increases. To me, it looks like he is now able to learn healthy boundaries. I am showing him that I have another body (believe it or not, that might be an issue!!) and that doing what he does can provoke pain in my body. I explain that "doing so" does pain (to me) and I know that he knows what "pain" means, other wise I remember him about times he had pain because of a fall or something recent.. To me, explaining about "appropriate" at this age, makes no sense. As punishment also does not, however people call it. By punishment he will maybe learn not to touch you like you do not want, but will remain with the frustration, and who knows, develop a real "breast obsession" later because of what he missed now and because of the punishment.
Also, to me, from this position, restarting nursing does not sound like something he would want.. And from what I read I understood that children even "forget" how to do it, if the nursing stopped some month before.. So eventually if it feels right, you could try that..
Maybe just explain to him about pain and that mommy must cry if she feels pain. And that his pleasure is free until it reaches somebody else and they get no pleasure from it, or something in that line. There was a great quote, something like "your freedom stops at the border of my freedom". It was a big eye opener for me because I never could say "no" in regards to my own body use, if it involved the pleasure of somebody else... I need(ed) to learn this for myself, and my son is a great teacher in that way..
Maybe also have a look at your own use of your body and boundaries, because to me it sounds like he is also mirroring something in you. How do you show where your boundaries are? With other people? Like, if someone else than your son does not respect your body or boundaries, what do you do? Do you feel you need to get angry to be clear with the other person? How do you keep yourself untouched? And if you have a better way with other people, why not with Fox?
I learned with my son a lot, and every time we get into a "fight" with each other, I also look at "my stuff"... But if it is just "his stuff", I can just say: I say "no" to this because.. (So and so for me or for another person).. If it is about society rules, I think at this age he will not understand what society means...
In conclusion you could try:
If he touches you at home in a way that you do not like, you could explain about pain, and that mama cannot allow Fox to give her pain, even if Fox will cry.
Mama's body is hers to decide upon.
Fox can decide how he wants to play, within mama's boundaries.
I love you does not mean I accept pain from you.
Do not leave the room, I think that is too much for him, especially because you say he grabs you to keep you there. But maybe you could keep him at an arm distance? And maybe not punish him as in the "we do not go to the park.." but say you may do "this", but not "that", and if you do "that" than the playing with the breast stops.. Because they are your breasts:-)
And maybe using the principle of "what you focus on, expands", focus on your boundaries and on all other kinds of physical play.. You could also try to explain to him in his sleep, but that is another kind of subject than this list allows, if you find that appealing, write to me personally.
Good luck with it and maybe tell us what worked?
Ioana (mama of Victor, 3 years, 5 month)
Op 2 okt. 2012 om 02:40 heeft "teresa" <treesock@...> het volgende geschreven:
My son is still nursing at almost 3 and 1/2 and I experience kinda the same things you do. Not that extreme, though, and I suppose that is because we still nurse. But the interest in breasts, in being extremely close to them, fondling them and loving them is there. Talking about it, too, and how men do not have them, but have nipples, and other women who have no children do not have milk in the breast, etc.. What I noticed is that my son understands very well the concept of another one's body or pain, so when I feel that I do not want him to do something I just explain. I do not know if all children are "the same" in that, because generalization on the base of age does not do very much good in other areas.. But with my son being around the same age, I will just tell you what works for us. You can take some of what I say and see how it feels for you.
My son loves the breast and he loves nursing - although I do not think I have much milk left.. He nurses especially at night and he wants to do it during the day when he is sleepy or scared. When during the day nursing is not possible or desirable (socially or for me) I just explain to him why that is not possible and mostly he just wants to be "by me", to compensate. At night, and especially in the morning when we wake up, he wants to play a lot with the breasts. With his hands, making circles, with his face against the bare breasts, you get the picture. And he wants to play with the nipple. Some of these things annoy me physically.. I do not have any problem with all this psychically or emotionally because I can sense his real need in closeness to the breasts. If I look at my son I see no testing of the boundaries, or asking if I still love him when he plays, just a pleasure of playing with something that is familiar and loved, soft and warm and mommy. When children nurse (for such a long time) they are attached to that kind of closeness and the breasts are a symbol for them. If I forbid my son to play (with the breasts) (or any other thing), it develops into a kind of mini obsession, to do it anyway possible. I think he is also transitioning to stopping with nursing and as the nursing subsides, the play with the breast increases. To me, it looks like he is now able to learn healthy boundaries. I am showing him that I have another body (believe it or not, that might be an issue!!) and that doing what he does can provoke pain in my body. I explain that "doing so" does pain (to me) and I know that he knows what "pain" means, other wise I remember him about times he had pain because of a fall or something recent.. To me, explaining about "appropriate" at this age, makes no sense. As punishment also does not, however people call it. By punishment he will maybe learn not to touch you like you do not want, but will remain with the frustration, and who knows, develop a real "breast obsession" later because of what he missed now and because of the punishment.
Also, to me, from this position, restarting nursing does not sound like something he would want.. And from what I read I understood that children even "forget" how to do it, if the nursing stopped some month before.. So eventually if it feels right, you could try that..
Maybe just explain to him about pain and that mommy must cry if she feels pain. And that his pleasure is free until it reaches somebody else and they get no pleasure from it, or something in that line. There was a great quote, something like "your freedom stops at the border of my freedom". It was a big eye opener for me because I never could say "no" in regards to my own body use, if it involved the pleasure of somebody else... I need(ed) to learn this for myself, and my son is a great teacher in that way..
Maybe also have a look at your own use of your body and boundaries, because to me it sounds like he is also mirroring something in you. How do you show where your boundaries are? With other people? Like, if someone else than your son does not respect your body or boundaries, what do you do? Do you feel you need to get angry to be clear with the other person? How do you keep yourself untouched? And if you have a better way with other people, why not with Fox?
I learned with my son a lot, and every time we get into a "fight" with each other, I also look at "my stuff"... But if it is just "his stuff", I can just say: I say "no" to this because.. (So and so for me or for another person).. If it is about society rules, I think at this age he will not understand what society means...
In conclusion you could try:
If he touches you at home in a way that you do not like, you could explain about pain, and that mama cannot allow Fox to give her pain, even if Fox will cry.
Mama's body is hers to decide upon.
Fox can decide how he wants to play, within mama's boundaries.
I love you does not mean I accept pain from you.
Do not leave the room, I think that is too much for him, especially because you say he grabs you to keep you there. But maybe you could keep him at an arm distance? And maybe not punish him as in the "we do not go to the park.." but say you may do "this", but not "that", and if you do "that" than the playing with the breast stops.. Because they are your breasts:-)
And maybe using the principle of "what you focus on, expands", focus on your boundaries and on all other kinds of physical play.. You could also try to explain to him in his sleep, but that is another kind of subject than this list allows, if you find that appealing, write to me personally.
Good luck with it and maybe tell us what worked?
Ioana (mama of Victor, 3 years, 5 month)
Op 2 okt. 2012 om 02:40 heeft "teresa" <treesock@...> het volgende geschreven:
> --- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > "teresa" <treesock@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that's exactly what he's asking...will you still love me when...? and testing the boundaries.
> > *****************
> >
> > I'm not sure that's necessarily true. It could be he's not really done nursing, or misses it and is grieving a bit.
> > ---Meredith
>
> Maybe it's both. I went into detail about his weaning in my original post because I first thought it was mostly about his still wishing he nursed. He talks about it *a lot*, reminding me that he did nurse when he was a baby and little boy, telling me children he knows who nursed or still nurse, explaining how mommies nurse but daddies don't, etc.
>
> But there might be a testing the love/limits, too--he asked to nurse again a month or so after weaning, then a month or so after that, and I gave a gentle no. I bet that was a hard no to hear for him, and even harder to understand. I could see there being some lingering hard feelings about it, or at least confused and a little mad.
>
> We do play baby a lot--he eats that up! And the laying on my breasts, hugging me at breast-level, I don't mind at all (when it stays at cuddling level and not grabbing), and I'm glad my children find security/comfort at my chest. Still, I don't think I want to offer to nurse him again. But I'll give it a think. In the far reaches of my mind I've thought, heck, that would probably solve this whole thing, and he might even turn it down once he discovers it's a possibility again. But, I'm not sure I want to start that back up.
>
> Thanks, all, for these replies.
>
> Teresa
> mama to Woody (nearly 7) and Fox (3 years, 9 months)
>
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 1, 2012, at 8:40 PM, teresa wrote:
Does he know the milk is gone? Though I don't know how you'd word that. It might be upsetting at 3 to think what he did caused an irreversible change. Maybe "My breasts were certain you were done."
It's possible if you offer since there's no milk it won't last long. It's also possible it might start up again.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> he asked to nurse again a month or so after weaning, then a month or soIt does sound like he wants to nurse. And it's very confusing to him why what was such a sweet time before is now a source of anger and abandonment.
> after that, and I gave a gentle no. I bet that was a hard no to hear for him,
> and even harder to understand
Does he know the milk is gone? Though I don't know how you'd word that. It might be upsetting at 3 to think what he did caused an irreversible change. Maybe "My breasts were certain you were done."
It's possible if you offer since there's no milk it won't last long. It's also possible it might start up again.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
My daughter is six and reluctantly weaned at the age age of five. It was reluctantly because I had no milk left and it was too uncomfortable for me to continue. She still tries sometimes and every morning loves to be very touchy with my breasts. It's usually in the morning when we wake up, but also at times when she is hurt or upset.
She used to tell me when she was breastfeeding how she would continue breastfeeding when she was an adult. She really misses it and tells me often.
Maybe you can make special times when it is ok for him to touch your breasts like in the morning or evening as he is going to bed.
She used to tell me when she was breastfeeding how she would continue breastfeeding when she was an adult. She really misses it and tells me often.
Maybe you can make special times when it is ok for him to touch your breasts like in the morning or evening as he is going to bed.
On 2 Oct 2012, at 09:35, "zurro" <zurrolaur@...> wrote:
> <<Fox weaned himself when he was just three, so about nine months ago now. I could tell almost right away that he wasn't sure about having stopped. But, I didn't offer for him to start back up again. I felt good about our breastfeeding relationship, and I felt good about stopping when we did.>>
>
> I think Meredith has a good point. I would suspect he isn't done either and you yourself stated that you weren't sure he was when he stopped but you did feel good about stopping. Is there any possibility that he really wasn't ready to wean but you pushed him in that direction because you were ready? If that's the case then I am not surprised that he is still looking for the comfort from nursing. Have you checked with La Leche League about strategies you could use so it's not so hard for him if he wasn't ready to wean?
>
> Caitlyn nursed until just this past Winter when she turned 5 and weaned slowly on her own, but she still talks about our nursing relationship and how much she loved nursing. She also occasionally asked to nurse just for a moment for a couple of months after which I was able to work with.
>
> Laura Z
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>>
>> "teresa" <treesock@> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that's exactly what he's asking...will you still love me when...? and testing the boundaries.
>> *****************
>>
>> I'm not sure that's necessarily true. It could be he's not really done nursing, or misses it and is grieving a bit. Have you offered to nurse again, or is that something you don't want to get into? Do you hold him and baby him as if you were nursing? That might be a kind of compromise, but I would expect it to involve him at least touching your breasts.
>>
>> ---Meredith
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Bernadette Lynn
On 2 October 2012 01:40, teresa <treesock@...> wrote:
My youngest weaned at a little past 2 1/2; she asked a week or two later
to try again, but she seemed almost to have forgotten what to do, she
mouthed my nipple a bit but didn't latch on or suck, then she didn't ask
again.
Over the last couple of months though, she's been talking a lot about
breastfeeding and how babies feed and she wishes she could try again. I've
told her I don't have any milk left, but a few times I've filled a
baby bottle with warm milk and cuddled her on my lap while she drinks it. I
think she likes to feel that she can still be a baby, when she wants. She's
6 1/2 so understands a lot more than a 3 year old would, but he might like
that kind of substitute nursing occasionally as well.
Bernadette.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But there might be a testing the love/limits, too--he asked to nurse==================================
> again a month or so after weaning, then a month or so after that, and I
> gave a gentle no. I bet that was a hard no to hear for him, and even harder
> to understand. I could see there being some lingering hard feelings about
> it, or at least confused and a little mad.
>
My youngest weaned at a little past 2 1/2; she asked a week or two later
to try again, but she seemed almost to have forgotten what to do, she
mouthed my nipple a bit but didn't latch on or suck, then she didn't ask
again.
Over the last couple of months though, she's been talking a lot about
breastfeeding and how babies feed and she wishes she could try again. I've
told her I don't have any milk left, but a few times I've filled a
baby bottle with warm milk and cuddled her on my lap while she drinks it. I
think she likes to feel that she can still be a baby, when she wants. She's
6 1/2 so understands a lot more than a 3 year old would, but he might like
that kind of substitute nursing occasionally as well.
Bernadette.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I will just tell you what works for us. You can take some of what I say and see how it feels for you.-=-
This is fine, but it's still put out on an unschooling discussion where every comment made should be looked at from an unschooling point of view. The author chose to ask it here and not on a breastfeeding discussion group, so all responses should have unschooling in mind.
-=-If he touches you at home in a way that you do not like, you could explain about pain, and that mama cannot allow Fox to give her pain, even if Fox will cry. -=-
When discussing boundaries and the separation of one person from another, referring to oneself as "mama" suggests that she is Fox's property. If Fox isn't old enough for his mother to say "I can't allow you to hurt me," or if the mom is not in the habit of referring to herself as "i" and to her son as "you," that could be adding to the problem.
Baby talk is useful for babies, and detrimental to older children and relationships.
-=-Good luck with it and maybe tell us what worked?-=-
No one should ever feel compelled or obligated to report back to this discussion, ever. We're not following particular stories. We're discussing ideas. We're not a help desk. It's a discussion from which readers can take what seems useful without there beinga test or report at the end.
I know women's discussions in small groups often have friendly, social taglines like "Let us know how it works." This isn't a small discussion among women, though. It's a large, hosted-with-moderators, focussed discussion with eleven years of history.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This is fine, but it's still put out on an unschooling discussion where every comment made should be looked at from an unschooling point of view. The author chose to ask it here and not on a breastfeeding discussion group, so all responses should have unschooling in mind.
-=-If he touches you at home in a way that you do not like, you could explain about pain, and that mama cannot allow Fox to give her pain, even if Fox will cry. -=-
When discussing boundaries and the separation of one person from another, referring to oneself as "mama" suggests that she is Fox's property. If Fox isn't old enough for his mother to say "I can't allow you to hurt me," or if the mom is not in the habit of referring to herself as "i" and to her son as "you," that could be adding to the problem.
Baby talk is useful for babies, and detrimental to older children and relationships.
-=-Good luck with it and maybe tell us what worked?-=-
No one should ever feel compelled or obligated to report back to this discussion, ever. We're not following particular stories. We're discussing ideas. We're not a help desk. It's a discussion from which readers can take what seems useful without there beinga test or report at the end.
I know women's discussions in small groups often have friendly, social taglines like "Let us know how it works." This isn't a small discussion among women, though. It's a large, hosted-with-moderators, focussed discussion with eleven years of history.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
When Holly was a baby, Marty was two and a half. He went through a time of wanting to be treated as a baby. He had weaned, but I would give him baby food, bounce him, rock him, baby-talk him.
When Holly was two I had baby urges, but wasn't able to have another baby, and so when Holly was nearly three, she asked me what I would have named the baby if I had had one. I said "Annie Mae." She said "I will be Annie Mae." And so off and on she would come and "be Annie Mae," and wouldn't speak but just make baby-noises and she would touch my face with a pretend baby-hand (though she was still a little baby. She was doing it partly to comfort me, and partly so she could be a baby again. It was a good game.
I would use bottles or baby food and baby spoons if she wanted, and we would play with baby toys and she would touch them and look at them as she thought a baby might. She was doing a good job of it, too, and it was sweet.
With all my kids, if they were stressed sometimes, or couldn't sleep, or were frustrated with a sibling, I would rock them in my lap and sofly tell them my memories of when they were tiny babies, and how much I loved to hold them and play with their tiny fingers and toes, or talk to them about their earliest memories, of of incidents they couldn't remember, when a friend or grandparent had done something nice with them, or for them, or of something someone said about how nice they were, or cute, or fun. Sometimes it lulled them right to sleep, but I think it was a way to channel reversions in a good way.
Sandra
When Holly was two I had baby urges, but wasn't able to have another baby, and so when Holly was nearly three, she asked me what I would have named the baby if I had had one. I said "Annie Mae." She said "I will be Annie Mae." And so off and on she would come and "be Annie Mae," and wouldn't speak but just make baby-noises and she would touch my face with a pretend baby-hand (though she was still a little baby. She was doing it partly to comfort me, and partly so she could be a baby again. It was a good game.
I would use bottles or baby food and baby spoons if she wanted, and we would play with baby toys and she would touch them and look at them as she thought a baby might. She was doing a good job of it, too, and it was sweet.
With all my kids, if they were stressed sometimes, or couldn't sleep, or were frustrated with a sibling, I would rock them in my lap and sofly tell them my memories of when they were tiny babies, and how much I loved to hold them and play with their tiny fingers and toes, or talk to them about their earliest memories, of of incidents they couldn't remember, when a friend or grandparent had done something nice with them, or for them, or of something someone said about how nice they were, or cute, or fun. Sometimes it lulled them right to sleep, but I think it was a way to channel reversions in a good way.
Sandra
david lewis
***It's possible if you offer since there's no milk it won't last long. It's
also possible it might start up again.***
Dylan was almost four when he quit nursing. He got sick a few months later,
his first illness ever, and wanted to nurse. My milk came back. He only
nursed a week or so and was done again, but he would come up to me and pat my
breasts and say, nice nursing.
Maybe when your son is about to touch you could take his hand and place it on
your breast and say, gentle, gentle. It must comfort him to touch you, so
maybe theres a way to make it easier for you while it lasts... and it
probably wont last long.
Deb Lewis
also possible it might start up again.***
Dylan was almost four when he quit nursing. He got sick a few months later,
his first illness ever, and wanted to nurse. My milk came back. He only
nursed a week or so and was done again, but he would come up to me and pat my
breasts and say, nice nursing.
Maybe when your son is about to touch you could take his hand and place it on
your breast and say, gentle, gentle. It must comfort him to touch you, so
maybe theres a way to make it easier for you while it lasts... and it
probably wont last long.
Deb Lewis
ioana voiculescu
> =-If he touches you at home in a way that you do not like, you could explain about pain, and that mama cannot allow Fox to give her pain, even if Fox will cry. -=-You are right, I do not talk like that (any more) to my son, either.
>
> When discussing boundaries and the separation of one person from another, referring to oneself as "mama" suggests that she is Fox's property. If Fox isn't old enough for his mother to say "I can't allow you to hurt me," or if the mom is not in the habit of referring to herself as "i" and to her son as "you," that could be adding to the problem.
>
For the rest, I took note, thank you.
ioana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
david lewis
I guess I don’t understand if it bothers you because he’s touching
you or if he’s hurting you.
If he’s hurting you, stop his hand and show him how to be gentle. Be
gentle with him.
If it’s bothering you for some other reason, what’s the reason? It
was ok for him to touch you when he was breast feeding, right? Is it the
different way he touches you, like a rough game?
He doesn’t know what to do. He still likes those breasts! They were a
pretty important part of life for three years. He’s trying to figure out
how to live without breast feeding and still have that nice comfort. Show him
how to be gentle. Give him some time to figure it out.
Deb Lewis
you or if he’s hurting you.
If he’s hurting you, stop his hand and show him how to be gentle. Be
gentle with him.
If it’s bothering you for some other reason, what’s the reason? It
was ok for him to touch you when he was breast feeding, right? Is it the
different way he touches you, like a rough game?
He doesn’t know what to do. He still likes those breasts! They were a
pretty important part of life for three years. He’s trying to figure out
how to live without breast feeding and still have that nice comfort. Show him
how to be gentle. Give him some time to figure it out.
Deb Lewis
Schuyler
When I was pregnant with Linnaea and Simon was still nursing it was more irritating than it had ever been before. My milk dried up at some point, Linnaea was producing hormones that stopped my milk from flowing. So it hurt when he nursed, but I made a decision that I didn't want him to suffer because David and I chose to have another child. Or, at least, to do what I could to minimise the impact of Linnaea. So, while I couldn't bring my milk back I could let him suckle at my breast. And when my milk did return, he and Linnaea tandem nursed. But, I would get irritated at his nursing on occasion.
I spent some time looking up the data, but it was a long time ago, so I can't give citations on this. There is a change in hormones that occurs as your baby moves through toddler-hood. You are physiologically moving toward having another baby. Having one still on the go breastfeeding makes it more difficult to get pregnant and puts you in a position of not being able to invest as much energy into the new baby. The irritation is you laying ground for the next child. Or, so I remember the argument going. It may help you to be aware of why you are touchy about being touched. It may help you to override those evolved traits if you see how they don't have to play out in this part of your relationship with your child. Like knowing that there are times of the month when you need to breathe more and speak less. Recognising how much your hormones are responsible for how you react or act in a given situation may give you greater choice and control over those
things. Or, at least, it seems to do a bit for me.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: david lewis <d.lewis@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2012, 4:56
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re:3 y.o. and breast grabbing
I guess I don’t understand if it bothers you because he’s touching
you or if he’s hurting you.
If he’s hurting you, stop his hand and show him how to be gentle. Be
gentle with him.
If it’s bothering you for some other reason, what’s the reason? It
was ok for him to touch you when he was breast feeding, right? Is it the
different way he touches you, like a rough game?
He doesn’t know what to do. He still likes those breasts! They were a
pretty important part of life for three years. He’s trying to figure out
how to live without breast feeding and still have that nice comfort. Show him
how to be gentle. Give him some time to figure it out.
Deb Lewis
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I spent some time looking up the data, but it was a long time ago, so I can't give citations on this. There is a change in hormones that occurs as your baby moves through toddler-hood. You are physiologically moving toward having another baby. Having one still on the go breastfeeding makes it more difficult to get pregnant and puts you in a position of not being able to invest as much energy into the new baby. The irritation is you laying ground for the next child. Or, so I remember the argument going. It may help you to be aware of why you are touchy about being touched. It may help you to override those evolved traits if you see how they don't have to play out in this part of your relationship with your child. Like knowing that there are times of the month when you need to breathe more and speak less. Recognising how much your hormones are responsible for how you react or act in a given situation may give you greater choice and control over those
things. Or, at least, it seems to do a bit for me.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: david lewis <d.lewis@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2012, 4:56
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re:3 y.o. and breast grabbing
I guess I don’t understand if it bothers you because he’s touching
you or if he’s hurting you.
If he’s hurting you, stop his hand and show him how to be gentle. Be
gentle with him.
If it’s bothering you for some other reason, what’s the reason? It
was ok for him to touch you when he was breast feeding, right? Is it the
different way he touches you, like a rough game?
He doesn’t know what to do. He still likes those breasts! They were a
pretty important part of life for three years. He’s trying to figure out
how to live without breast feeding and still have that nice comfort. Show him
how to be gentle. Give him some time to figure it out.
Deb Lewis
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]