Touchy topic; some won't want to read this
Sandra Dodd
NOTICE:
This is about pornography, so anyone who thinks all porn is sin or should all be a crime should just read no more. The question was brought to me with a request for anonymity. I know it will offend some readers. I don't think the original poster needs to hear what grandmothers would say. That's surely already in her head.
So let's not discuss it idly. Anyone who might be offended shouldn't read it. Anyone without any ideas should just not post. We can't change the world into a fantasy world, and there was porn before there was the internet.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I need help with the issue of pornography and my 11 year old son. A few months ago I came across the fact that my eleven year old had been watching hardcore porn on the internet. Anime porn, hardcore XXX porn, live webcams, gay, lesbian, gang bang…..etc. When I spoke with him about the fact that I found porn sites on the computer he became very shy and quiet. After a while he said that links came up when he played games on the internet and that he clicked them to see what they were. He then said that he browsed them because he was curious. I shared with him that there are many ways to satisfy ones curiosity about sex, one of which is hardcore porn, others being books, magazines, articles, soft core porn…. I offered to order resources for him to explore sex. I explained that hardcore porn objectifies women and is not always a realistic demonstration of what happens in an intimate sexual relationship. I also explained that sometimes it is what happens, that it just depended on the couple, but that I preferred that he learns about sex using other resources and not hardcore videos. I explained that I preferred he watch other more "gentle", "humanistic", "intimate" expressions / videos of sex. I strewed additional resources around the house, I bought Kama Sutra books with very explicit pictures and explanations, I also purchased Jaiya New World Sex Educator's video on sex, where besides video footage of couples having explicit sex, she also discusses intimacy, touch, arousal, erogenous zones…..etc. I downloaded her video to his computer so he could feel free to watch it privately.
Yesterday I browsed his history on the internet and noticed he had been watching hardcore porn again and going into live sex webcam rooms. I looked at the history a bit more and noticed that he usually watches an hour to two every two or three days; that seems to be the pattern. I am having a reaction about having hardcore porn be his introduction into the world of sex. I feel that the visuals in hardcore porn are not appropriate for a child. My husband and I spoke about it and we are almost at the point where we would like to ask him directly not to watch hardcore porn anymore (not state it as our preference this time, but a direct request to stop watching hardcore porn). We would like to keep supplying him with internet links that show sex, and videos of sex, but not hardcore XXX stuff. Can I make this non-negotiable request of him and not cause a "behind your back" phenomenon to start in our household? Do I have the right as a parent to just stop him from something that causes no harm to anyone around him but that I don't like because I don't believe it is ok for an 11 year old?
(anonymous person)
This is about pornography, so anyone who thinks all porn is sin or should all be a crime should just read no more. The question was brought to me with a request for anonymity. I know it will offend some readers. I don't think the original poster needs to hear what grandmothers would say. That's surely already in her head.
So let's not discuss it idly. Anyone who might be offended shouldn't read it. Anyone without any ideas should just not post. We can't change the world into a fantasy world, and there was porn before there was the internet.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I need help with the issue of pornography and my 11 year old son. A few months ago I came across the fact that my eleven year old had been watching hardcore porn on the internet. Anime porn, hardcore XXX porn, live webcams, gay, lesbian, gang bang…..etc. When I spoke with him about the fact that I found porn sites on the computer he became very shy and quiet. After a while he said that links came up when he played games on the internet and that he clicked them to see what they were. He then said that he browsed them because he was curious. I shared with him that there are many ways to satisfy ones curiosity about sex, one of which is hardcore porn, others being books, magazines, articles, soft core porn…. I offered to order resources for him to explore sex. I explained that hardcore porn objectifies women and is not always a realistic demonstration of what happens in an intimate sexual relationship. I also explained that sometimes it is what happens, that it just depended on the couple, but that I preferred that he learns about sex using other resources and not hardcore videos. I explained that I preferred he watch other more "gentle", "humanistic", "intimate" expressions / videos of sex. I strewed additional resources around the house, I bought Kama Sutra books with very explicit pictures and explanations, I also purchased Jaiya New World Sex Educator's video on sex, where besides video footage of couples having explicit sex, she also discusses intimacy, touch, arousal, erogenous zones…..etc. I downloaded her video to his computer so he could feel free to watch it privately.
Yesterday I browsed his history on the internet and noticed he had been watching hardcore porn again and going into live sex webcam rooms. I looked at the history a bit more and noticed that he usually watches an hour to two every two or three days; that seems to be the pattern. I am having a reaction about having hardcore porn be his introduction into the world of sex. I feel that the visuals in hardcore porn are not appropriate for a child. My husband and I spoke about it and we are almost at the point where we would like to ask him directly not to watch hardcore porn anymore (not state it as our preference this time, but a direct request to stop watching hardcore porn). We would like to keep supplying him with internet links that show sex, and videos of sex, but not hardcore XXX stuff. Can I make this non-negotiable request of him and not cause a "behind your back" phenomenon to start in our household? Do I have the right as a parent to just stop him from something that causes no harm to anyone around him but that I don't like because I don't believe it is ok for an 11 year old?
(anonymous person)
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 14, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
One thing I would do is see if any United Church of Christ or Unitarian Universalist churches near you are offering the Our Whole Lives sexuality program for his age. (It's divided up usually by 2 year spans.) Check this ASAP. The programs should be starting soon.
There was an interesting article in the New York Times about a (regular!) business woman who realized her younger lovers had learned a lot of their moves from pornography. She was inspired to create a website where people could upload videos of actual lovemaking.
Spreading the Word (and Pictures) on ‘Real’ Sex
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/09/fashion/cindy-gallops-online-effort-to-promote-real-not-porn-fed-sex.html
You might want to read him the beginning of it to let him know that women can tell the difference between lovemaking and pornography and aren't too pleased with the results. ;-) It will be useful information for him.
BUT, I suspect right now at 11 the sensual side of it doesn't interest him. It's the physical side. ( But it's not good, as in the article, if their understanding of the mechanics of sex comes strictly from porn.) When he's older, and ready for a relationship he will care so it's good he has access to both.
BUT, again, men actually seem to be wired to need the physical side in their porn. The emotional side is not part of it. At least not in the porn. Generally.
There's a -- clean! -- story behind that observation ;-) I've been drawing a comic for a while and one panel needed a couple locked in a sensual kiss. And I discovered it's *astonishingly* hard to find clear pictures of that.
During the extensive search I realized two things:
1) Heterosexual men's porn has no kissing. Men, in fact, hardly even appear in the porn. The only part of the man that's important is his equipment. ;-) And for the woman, her part is to appear to be deriving physical pleasure from whatever the male equipment is doing to her.
So that's the biochemistry your son is dealing with. Obviously heterosexual men do kiss in real life! :-) It's just they don't need it in their porn. So porn isn't about lovemaking.
And 2) Gay men's porn has kissing! (It's where I finally found my clear pictures ;-) There's other kinds of sensual touching depicted, not just the pleasuring of equipment ;-) Which I thought was very interesting! It suggests different biochemistry.
3) I have no idea if there's actual lesbian porn. What's readily available of women together is probably for heterosexual men since it's all focused on physical pleasure.
And 4) -- which is separate from the kissing picture research -- many women enjoy reading stories, reading graphic novels of men falling in love with each other and having very graphic sex. I'm sure it's existed forever, but it "came out of the closet" in the late 70's when women were able to share their fantasies on line beginning with Star Trek slash fiction between Kirk and Spock ;-)
Sexually speaking, why would women want to read and look at men falling in love and having sex? Biologically speaking it's a dead end ;-) But the market for "boy's love" graphic novels (yaoi) is huge. (Google it :-) What's interesting is generally the men aren't gay. Partly because it would make the relationships too easy! ;-) But -- and I've pondered this for quite a while ;-) -- I think it has to do with the fact that for the men to fall in love with each other it requires a massive drop of any emotional barriers. I'm guessing women get turned on by emotional vulnerability in men.
What it all comes down to is that sexuality is way more complex than it seems it needs to be ;-) What people like for arousal purposes doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what they enjoy doing in real life. How many women who enjoyed the early bodice busters where the women were generally raped initially by their eventual husbands, wanted to be raped themselves? If their moms had known exactly what they were reading, would they have been worried about their future ability to have loving sex?
Joyce
> I explained that hardcore porn objectifies women and is notPerhaps one of the draws of the pornography on the internet is that he found it. It feels like "his."
> always a realistic demonstration of what happens in an intimate sexual relationship.
One thing I would do is see if any United Church of Christ or Unitarian Universalist churches near you are offering the Our Whole Lives sexuality program for his age. (It's divided up usually by 2 year spans.) Check this ASAP. The programs should be starting soon.
There was an interesting article in the New York Times about a (regular!) business woman who realized her younger lovers had learned a lot of their moves from pornography. She was inspired to create a website where people could upload videos of actual lovemaking.
Spreading the Word (and Pictures) on ‘Real’ Sex
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/09/fashion/cindy-gallops-online-effort-to-promote-real-not-porn-fed-sex.html
You might want to read him the beginning of it to let him know that women can tell the difference between lovemaking and pornography and aren't too pleased with the results. ;-) It will be useful information for him.
BUT, I suspect right now at 11 the sensual side of it doesn't interest him. It's the physical side. ( But it's not good, as in the article, if their understanding of the mechanics of sex comes strictly from porn.) When he's older, and ready for a relationship he will care so it's good he has access to both.
BUT, again, men actually seem to be wired to need the physical side in their porn. The emotional side is not part of it. At least not in the porn. Generally.
There's a -- clean! -- story behind that observation ;-) I've been drawing a comic for a while and one panel needed a couple locked in a sensual kiss. And I discovered it's *astonishingly* hard to find clear pictures of that.
During the extensive search I realized two things:
1) Heterosexual men's porn has no kissing. Men, in fact, hardly even appear in the porn. The only part of the man that's important is his equipment. ;-) And for the woman, her part is to appear to be deriving physical pleasure from whatever the male equipment is doing to her.
So that's the biochemistry your son is dealing with. Obviously heterosexual men do kiss in real life! :-) It's just they don't need it in their porn. So porn isn't about lovemaking.
And 2) Gay men's porn has kissing! (It's where I finally found my clear pictures ;-) There's other kinds of sensual touching depicted, not just the pleasuring of equipment ;-) Which I thought was very interesting! It suggests different biochemistry.
3) I have no idea if there's actual lesbian porn. What's readily available of women together is probably for heterosexual men since it's all focused on physical pleasure.
And 4) -- which is separate from the kissing picture research -- many women enjoy reading stories, reading graphic novels of men falling in love with each other and having very graphic sex. I'm sure it's existed forever, but it "came out of the closet" in the late 70's when women were able to share their fantasies on line beginning with Star Trek slash fiction between Kirk and Spock ;-)
Sexually speaking, why would women want to read and look at men falling in love and having sex? Biologically speaking it's a dead end ;-) But the market for "boy's love" graphic novels (yaoi) is huge. (Google it :-) What's interesting is generally the men aren't gay. Partly because it would make the relationships too easy! ;-) But -- and I've pondered this for quite a while ;-) -- I think it has to do with the fact that for the men to fall in love with each other it requires a massive drop of any emotional barriers. I'm guessing women get turned on by emotional vulnerability in men.
What it all comes down to is that sexuality is way more complex than it seems it needs to be ;-) What people like for arousal purposes doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what they enjoy doing in real life. How many women who enjoyed the early bodice busters where the women were generally raped initially by their eventual husbands, wanted to be raped themselves? If their moms had known exactly what they were reading, would they have been worried about their future ability to have loving sex?
Joyce
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I do not have a lot of experience with it . My son is 10 and just the other day I shared with him the Scarleteen website.He has seen Anime porn and told me about some that were disturbing to him.
He gets shy and quiet if one mentions sex sometimes. Sometimes he does not.
When I was growing up I remember very well when my younger brother and his friends ( all about that age or a couple years older) would rent out some hardcore or weird porn videos. My parents never made a big deal out of it.
We had many sex books in our library and my parents were pretty open to talking about sex.
The point is that the boys saw some weird hard core stuff. They were young and curious.
The good thing was that my brother had my parents to ask questions if he needed and my parents were open to it.
Today my brother has been married to his wife for 18 yeas and together for 20. He is a healthy man that likes sex but is not into weird stuff. I know because when he was younger he used to ask me and my sister about what women liked and how to be a better partner to them. He came to us to ask advice about his girlfriends when he needed.
That was pretty cool that my brother could ask his older sisters , me and our other sister, advice about sex when he was in a relationship. It was also because he cared about his partner.
MY point is that watching some hardcore porn did not turn my brother in to a sex addict , porn addict or a man with an unhealthy sex life.
It sounds like your son has you guys to ask questions and help him find good sources. He maybe just curious about all of it. I do not think making hard core sex a prohibited thing will help him and it could even backfire.
Better to let him know that you are there for him to ask questions. I would also say that porn movie ideas, a lot of times, comes from fantasies people have and not real life.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
He gets shy and quiet if one mentions sex sometimes. Sometimes he does not.
When I was growing up I remember very well when my younger brother and his friends ( all about that age or a couple years older) would rent out some hardcore or weird porn videos. My parents never made a big deal out of it.
We had many sex books in our library and my parents were pretty open to talking about sex.
The point is that the boys saw some weird hard core stuff. They were young and curious.
The good thing was that my brother had my parents to ask questions if he needed and my parents were open to it.
Today my brother has been married to his wife for 18 yeas and together for 20. He is a healthy man that likes sex but is not into weird stuff. I know because when he was younger he used to ask me and my sister about what women liked and how to be a better partner to them. He came to us to ask advice about his girlfriends when he needed.
That was pretty cool that my brother could ask his older sisters , me and our other sister, advice about sex when he was in a relationship. It was also because he cared about his partner.
MY point is that watching some hardcore porn did not turn my brother in to a sex addict , porn addict or a man with an unhealthy sex life.
It sounds like your son has you guys to ask questions and help him find good sources. He maybe just curious about all of it. I do not think making hard core sex a prohibited thing will help him and it could even backfire.
Better to let him know that you are there for him to ask questions. I would also say that porn movie ideas, a lot of times, comes from fantasies people have and not real life.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I know the original author had seen the link below before, but others reading might not have. This was the days before my kids had their own computers, as they were older teens, so I have no idea what my boys (now grown men) have on their computers, but I have heard that the oldest is quite gentlemanly, and the younger one has had a girlfriend for nearly four years.
I told him the reason I was asking how long they had been together was that someone had an 11 year old boy looking at porn, and was freaked out, and I wanted to share the link with the story about him when he was younger, and let them know he didn't grow up to be a pervert.
He said. "Oh, sure." (In a cheery supportive way, not in a sarcastic way, at all.)
http://sandradodd.com/sex
I know there are parents who treat pornography like Satan incarnate with his pants off. (I started to say with his peter out, but that mixes church characters too much; it was a Freudian thought, I guess... but Satan doesn't wear pants anyways, so it all falls apart.)
I think the reaction of parents who are harsh and punishing toward young boys who are curious about sex is more likely to harm their sex lives than pornography will. There are boys spanked/whipped, for looking at dirty pictures (by good Christian dads... not healthy). There are boys who lose all computer privileges, are grounded, forbidden to see the friends they saw porn with/from, for months or a year. HUGE over-reactions, in my opinion.
But here is something that can and probably should be said to any unschooled boy who seems too interested in internet porn: If someone outside the family got wind of it and knew the parents weren't trying to prevent it, or that the parents had condoned or contributed, that could be trouble with social workers or laws. There are laws in the U.S. (I don't know about other places) about adults viewing porn with a child, even a young adult with an older teen. Sex-offender laws, I mean, which can have (in New Mexico, anyway) repercussions for life.
With my kids, when there were things that were UNACCEPTABLE in mainstream life, I would point out that I didn't think it was worth getting in trouble with the state about, and we weren't registered homeschoolers for most of those years, and I wanted to stay fairly quiet. I know I didn't seem quiet, writing all the time and speaking at conferences, but the noise I wanted to avoid had to do with what social services and juvenile probation folks care about.
Sandra
I told him the reason I was asking how long they had been together was that someone had an 11 year old boy looking at porn, and was freaked out, and I wanted to share the link with the story about him when he was younger, and let them know he didn't grow up to be a pervert.
He said. "Oh, sure." (In a cheery supportive way, not in a sarcastic way, at all.)
http://sandradodd.com/sex
I know there are parents who treat pornography like Satan incarnate with his pants off. (I started to say with his peter out, but that mixes church characters too much; it was a Freudian thought, I guess... but Satan doesn't wear pants anyways, so it all falls apart.)
I think the reaction of parents who are harsh and punishing toward young boys who are curious about sex is more likely to harm their sex lives than pornography will. There are boys spanked/whipped, for looking at dirty pictures (by good Christian dads... not healthy). There are boys who lose all computer privileges, are grounded, forbidden to see the friends they saw porn with/from, for months or a year. HUGE over-reactions, in my opinion.
But here is something that can and probably should be said to any unschooled boy who seems too interested in internet porn: If someone outside the family got wind of it and knew the parents weren't trying to prevent it, or that the parents had condoned or contributed, that could be trouble with social workers or laws. There are laws in the U.S. (I don't know about other places) about adults viewing porn with a child, even a young adult with an older teen. Sex-offender laws, I mean, which can have (in New Mexico, anyway) repercussions for life.
With my kids, when there were things that were UNACCEPTABLE in mainstream life, I would point out that I didn't think it was worth getting in trouble with the state about, and we weren't registered homeschoolers for most of those years, and I wanted to stay fairly quiet. I know I didn't seem quiet, writing all the time and speaking at conferences, but the noise I wanted to avoid had to do with what social services and juvenile probation folks care about.
Sandra
Kerryn LH
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 7:44 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>wrote:
you look to "feminist porn" producers and actors.
There's also some really good, and at times quite graphic, information at
http://dodsonandross.com/ Betty Dodson is in her 80's and has rather a lot
to say on the topic of sex.
If the original poster has younger children it would be a good idea to make
sure the 11yr old knows not to watch porn around them, which I believe is
mentioned in the link Sandra provided.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>My understanding is that you're more likely to find real lesbian porn if
> 3) I have no idea if there's actual lesbian porn. What's readily available
> of women together is probably for heterosexual men since it's all focused
> on physical pleasure.
>
>
you look to "feminist porn" producers and actors.
There's also some really good, and at times quite graphic, information at
http://dodsonandross.com/ Betty Dodson is in her 80's and has rather a lot
to say on the topic of sex.
If the original poster has younger children it would be a good idea to make
sure the 11yr old knows not to watch porn around them, which I believe is
mentioned in the link Sandra provided.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
teresa
My husband described the feeling he had at about age 10 when the magazines his older brothers had suddenly became very interesting to him, and he couldn't exactly say why they were interesting yet, but he also couldn't stop sneaking them from wherever they were hidden.
I imagine that's a pretty powerful concept for a curious child. It may be that that particular biological urge has never been felt so strongly before. I wonder if the repeated viewing is partly a matter of trying to understand why watching body parts do these things together has such a profound effect upon him.
If that were the case, your strewing of other types of materials wouldn't quite get at what he needed to know (maybe explaining why he's still watching the videos), though it sounds like you are offering lots of options for exploration once he is ready to move on to something different.
Here's the link to the "Our Whole Lives" sexuality education courses that Joyce mentioned:
http://www.uua.org/re/owl/
http://www.ucc.org/justice/sexuality-education/our-whole-lives.html
I've been a facilitator for the middle adolescents class twice, and I can tell you that questions about porn--many styles of porn--come up pretty frequently in the anonymous question box. I always got the impression that the kids were seeking to understand porn's effect on people and its place in society. It seemed as if they saw it as bizarre, fascinating, silly, and *very compelling* all at once.
Teresa
I imagine that's a pretty powerful concept for a curious child. It may be that that particular biological urge has never been felt so strongly before. I wonder if the repeated viewing is partly a matter of trying to understand why watching body parts do these things together has such a profound effect upon him.
If that were the case, your strewing of other types of materials wouldn't quite get at what he needed to know (maybe explaining why he's still watching the videos), though it sounds like you are offering lots of options for exploration once he is ready to move on to something different.
Here's the link to the "Our Whole Lives" sexuality education courses that Joyce mentioned:
http://www.uua.org/re/owl/
http://www.ucc.org/justice/sexuality-education/our-whole-lives.html
I've been a facilitator for the middle adolescents class twice, and I can tell you that questions about porn--many styles of porn--come up pretty frequently in the anonymous question box. I always got the impression that the kids were seeking to understand porn's effect on people and its place in society. It seemed as if they saw it as bizarre, fascinating, silly, and *very compelling* all at once.
Teresa
Vicki Dennis
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 6:52 PM, Kerryn LH <kerryn77@...> wrote:
Also depends on your definition of "lesbian porn". Many of the actors in
woman on woman porn directed to heterosexual men are indeed lesbian but
what they do for the screen and what they do in real
life.................well I think all that has been covered. There is
also both soft and hard core porn directed toward lesbian (or questioning)
viewing. Some feminists would say "feminist porn" is an oxymoron. If
you thought the Mommy Wars were vicious, you haven't researched the
Pornography charges. And you "really" need a flame proof bodice if you
want to consider B&D or S&M!
Thanks for the Dodson link.
vicki
> **www.wolfevideo.com is probably the most mainstream.
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 7:44 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...
> >wrote:
>
> >
> > 3) I have no idea if there's actual lesbian porn. What's readily
> available
> > of women together is probably for heterosexual men since it's all focused
> > on physical pleasure.
> >
> >
> My understanding is that you're more likely to find real lesbian porn if
> you look to "feminist porn" producers and actors.
>
Also depends on your definition of "lesbian porn". Many of the actors in
woman on woman porn directed to heterosexual men are indeed lesbian but
what they do for the screen and what they do in real
life.................well I think all that has been covered. There is
also both soft and hard core porn directed toward lesbian (or questioning)
viewing. Some feminists would say "feminist porn" is an oxymoron. If
you thought the Mommy Wars were vicious, you haven't researched the
Pornography charges. And you "really" need a flame proof bodice if you
want to consider B&D or S&M!
Thanks for the Dodson link.
vicki
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> There's also some really good, and at times quite graphic, information at
> http://dodsonandross.com/ Betty Dodson is in her 80's and has rather a lot
> to say on the topic of sex.
>
> If the original poster has younger children it would be a good idea to make
> sure the 11yr old knows not to watch porn around them, which I believe is
> mentioned in the link Sandra provided.
>
>
>
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Been chatting with a friend about porn and kids and remembering.
It is not uncommon for a kid at 11 to be aroused and even masturbate.
So I could understand a child at that age feeling curious and wanting to watch more and just surfing around figuring out what makes them aroused and what not.
I like porn. I do not have a problem with it. I do not care for the weird and hard core stuff but there are some fun ones.Some funny ones and some movie parodies too. Some directed by woman that I heard are good.
I would talk to my kid about being careful and watching privately. About bad virus on internet porn and all the other issues that were touched in Sandra's page.
I would not prohibit him. I would tell him I could answer his questions or direct him to answers if he had them.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It is not uncommon for a kid at 11 to be aroused and even masturbate.
So I could understand a child at that age feeling curious and wanting to watch more and just surfing around figuring out what makes them aroused and what not.
I like porn. I do not have a problem with it. I do not care for the weird and hard core stuff but there are some fun ones.Some funny ones and some movie parodies too. Some directed by woman that I heard are good.
I would talk to my kid about being careful and watching privately. About bad virus on internet porn and all the other issues that were touched in Sandra's page.
I would not prohibit him. I would tell him I could answer his questions or direct him to answers if he had them.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vicki Dennis
When my adult sons were 11 we did not yet have much internet access. I
did provide them with the typical stroke mags but also advised them that
some parents would be VERY upset to know that their sons had such things.
So to be discreet in how they were shared.
By the time the younger was 13 or 14 we had multiple computers and private
areas. I had talked about which images upset me and that while I would
not restrict what he accessed (as if I could!) I told him it was polite (we
are Southerners, rudeness is a sin!) to not assault visitors or me with
images that might be considered shocking if we happened to see the screen.
That especially applied to screensavers. And again, that if he planned
late night porn surfing during overnights he needed to (1) consider the
parents of his friends and (2) not involve anyone 17 or older in order to
protect his friends.
I did express that while I expected him to check out various types I did
hope he would view as a critic and seek high quality stuff. Also, that
while he might watch the sex slasher crap now and even enjoy it that I have
faith he would grow past that. I think of some of the movies I enjoyed as
a teen (not sexual porn but what I consider violence porn) and just
cringe.
2 hours at a time is not very much for someone in the throes of puberty
even if it is 2-3 times a week. I would hope that as the need was
satisfied the viewing might diminish. I would make sure my son at 11 knew
that I was available to answer questions but I would not watch WITH him.
Don't think he would have wanted that anyway. I did tell him that most
people's bodies (and performances) don't look like what you see. And
that masturbating is very normal and, actually, a good way to learn about
your own body.
I am not as averse to porn as some feminists and I don't think that it is
like Reefer Madness if anyone remembers that movie. However I would have
no problem with saying that I thought too much of anything for a long
period could be a negative. But I would not be the enforcer.
Even 20 years ago in my neighborhood, public school kids were becoming
sexually active in their early teens. Yes, some girls as young as 11.
I prefer satisfying curiosity with images instead of dating! By 11 it is
time to talk about respecting girls as well as respecting your own body.
And STDs.
vicki
P.S.: I AM a grandmother so I hope Sandra doesn't mind me responding.
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:23 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <
polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
did provide them with the typical stroke mags but also advised them that
some parents would be VERY upset to know that their sons had such things.
So to be discreet in how they were shared.
By the time the younger was 13 or 14 we had multiple computers and private
areas. I had talked about which images upset me and that while I would
not restrict what he accessed (as if I could!) I told him it was polite (we
are Southerners, rudeness is a sin!) to not assault visitors or me with
images that might be considered shocking if we happened to see the screen.
That especially applied to screensavers. And again, that if he planned
late night porn surfing during overnights he needed to (1) consider the
parents of his friends and (2) not involve anyone 17 or older in order to
protect his friends.
I did express that while I expected him to check out various types I did
hope he would view as a critic and seek high quality stuff. Also, that
while he might watch the sex slasher crap now and even enjoy it that I have
faith he would grow past that. I think of some of the movies I enjoyed as
a teen (not sexual porn but what I consider violence porn) and just
cringe.
2 hours at a time is not very much for someone in the throes of puberty
even if it is 2-3 times a week. I would hope that as the need was
satisfied the viewing might diminish. I would make sure my son at 11 knew
that I was available to answer questions but I would not watch WITH him.
Don't think he would have wanted that anyway. I did tell him that most
people's bodies (and performances) don't look like what you see. And
that masturbating is very normal and, actually, a good way to learn about
your own body.
I am not as averse to porn as some feminists and I don't think that it is
like Reefer Madness if anyone remembers that movie. However I would have
no problem with saying that I thought too much of anything for a long
period could be a negative. But I would not be the enforcer.
Even 20 years ago in my neighborhood, public school kids were becoming
sexually active in their early teens. Yes, some girls as young as 11.
I prefer satisfying curiosity with images instead of dating! By 11 it is
time to talk about respecting girls as well as respecting your own body.
And STDs.
vicki
P.S.: I AM a grandmother so I hope Sandra doesn't mind me responding.
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:23 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <
polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
> **[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Been chatting with a friend about porn and kids and remembering.
> It is not uncommon for a kid at 11 to be aroused and even masturbate.
>
> So I could understand a child at that age feeling curious and wanting to
> watch more and just surfing around figuring out what makes them aroused and
> what not.
>
> I like porn. I do not have a problem with it. I do not care for the weird
> and hard core stuff but there are some fun ones.Some funny ones and some
> movie parodies too. Some directed by woman that I heard are good.
>
> I would talk to my kid about being careful and watching privately. About
> bad virus on internet porn and all the other issues that were touched in
> Sandra's page.
> I would not prohibit him. I would tell him I could answer his questions
> or direct him to answers if he had them.
>
>
> Alex Polikowsky
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-P.S.: I AM a grandmother so I hope Sandra doesn't mind me responding.-=-
Yeah.... I thought when I wrote that of which grandmothers I was mostly thinking about. MY grandmothers, born between 1900 and 1910. :-) And not just born over 100 years ago (one died in the 1970's and the other in the 1980's), but Baptist and Nazarene. Sin sinnedy sin sin SIN. I do happen to know that my dad and his two brothers were horndogs, as (reportedly) was their dad, my paternal papaw. My dad would not have sex with a woman before marriage, so he was married four times. My mom was the only long one, and she was the second one. Both my uncles discussed their sex lives with me on car trips (because people do talk to me; it happens all the time). I heard some about my dad's from various sources, and him.
Those men ALL could have used some earlier release and calm information!!
Boys used to be punished for touching themselves. There were bedcovers and such designed to keep them from touching themselves at night. Some families made their boys sleep with their hands outside the covers, before I was born (and probably after, though I don't like to think about those poor boys being treated that way).
Sandra
Yeah.... I thought when I wrote that of which grandmothers I was mostly thinking about. MY grandmothers, born between 1900 and 1910. :-) And not just born over 100 years ago (one died in the 1970's and the other in the 1980's), but Baptist and Nazarene. Sin sinnedy sin sin SIN. I do happen to know that my dad and his two brothers were horndogs, as (reportedly) was their dad, my paternal papaw. My dad would not have sex with a woman before marriage, so he was married four times. My mom was the only long one, and she was the second one. Both my uncles discussed their sex lives with me on car trips (because people do talk to me; it happens all the time). I heard some about my dad's from various sources, and him.
Those men ALL could have used some earlier release and calm information!!
Boys used to be punished for touching themselves. There were bedcovers and such designed to keep them from touching themselves at night. Some families made their boys sleep with their hands outside the covers, before I was born (and probably after, though I don't like to think about those poor boys being treated that way).
Sandra
Pam
I immediately thought of the same thing Sandra mentioned. The legal ramifications if the police/state were to become involve could be horrific. In our state (CO) it is a hot issue, and if they found certain types of pornography on your computer, or knew a child was viewing pornography with an adult involved it could be devastating on many levels.
If there were different ways to meet your sons questions/curiosity, then I'd definitely go those routes over Internet.
If there were different ways to meet your sons questions/curiosity, then I'd definitely go those routes over Internet.
otherstar
>>>>>>But here is something that can and probably should be said to anyThis reminded me of some other issues that should be considered. Child
>>>>>>unschooled boy who seems too interested in internet porn: If someone
>>>>>>outside the family got wind of it and knew the parents weren't trying
>>>>>>to prevent it, or that the parents had condoned or contributed, that
>>>>>>could be trouble with social workers or laws. There are laws in the
>>>>>>U.S. (I don't know about other places) about adults viewing porn with
>>>>>>a child, even a young adult with an older teen. Sex-offender laws, I
>>>>>>mean, which can have (in New Mexico, anyway) repercussions for
>>>>>>life.<<<<<<<
pornography is illegal even if it is an 11 year old looking at an 11 year
old. Steer clear of that at all costs because it is a legal issue rather
than an issue of sin or morality. If somebody were to find that somebody had
viewed child pornography on our computers or our network, that could lead to
a whole host of trouble that could ruin a person's/family's life. (At least
in the US.)
Computer integrity is something else that should be mentioned. Pornographic
websites are known for harboring computer viruses and trojan horses. Any
computer that is used to view pornography should have a really good
antivirus program. I don't know if it is as big of an issue on a Mac but I
know that PC's are especially prone to getting corrupted and/or compromised
as a result of some of the questionable porn sites. Google chrome has a
feature that allows you to view things incognito so that it doesn't track
anything or keep any cookies. The less of a footprint that can be left on
the computer, the better. Some of the porn sites leave really big footprints
and interfere with normal use.
Connie
Sandra Dodd
-=-If there were different ways to meet your sons questions/curiosity, then I'd definitely go those routes over Internet. -=-
"Over internet" is an awkward phrase.
I think "avoid the internet" or "find ways other than the internet" was intended.
When the question was still in private e-mail before I brought it here, here's something I had written to the mom:
______________
-=- to take him out of the grips of hardcore porn obsession.-=-
Do you have an XBox? Maybe a few great video games would get him doing something different. :-)
Has he played Skyrim?
Fallout 3?
_______________
(back to now)
Sometimes it's the age, the availability, the lack of something more intriguing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"Over internet" is an awkward phrase.
I think "avoid the internet" or "find ways other than the internet" was intended.
When the question was still in private e-mail before I brought it here, here's something I had written to the mom:
______________
-=- to take him out of the grips of hardcore porn obsession.-=-
Do you have an XBox? Maybe a few great video games would get him doing something different. :-)
Has he played Skyrim?
Fallout 3?
_______________
(back to now)
Sometimes it's the age, the availability, the lack of something more intriguing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
otherstar
>>>>>>I think "avoid the internet" or "find ways other than the internet"I don’t think I have seen this mentioned yet but one of the things that I
>>>>>>was intended.<<<<<
have done is make sure that all of our computers are in a common area. If a
child is holed up by him/herself in another room on the Internet, it can be
easy to forget that the Internet is not private. It also makes me more
available for questions. If a child has to get up and walk into another room
to share or ask questions, then that is going to impede the flow of
information. If the child is in another room, then it becomes to easy for me
to forget to check in with them.
I don’t feel a need to check the Internet history because we are all in the
same room and I have a general idea of what it is going on. I think the
history checking could potentially set up a situation where there is more
hiding and more sneaking. The hiding and sneaking and demonizing of porn is
often what leads to obsessions or addictions.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
Coming out is a huge factor in gay sexuality - I don't think it's possible to overstate how big a factor it is. Not just coming out to other people, but discovering one has an "atypical" sexuality and learning to deal with that involves actively looking for other examples of other people who are similar. For gay men, in particular, the sight of men kissing other men has a gigantic personal impact - don't forget that straight men sometimes engage in male-on-male sexual behavior, and that's part of the mix. A truism of the gay community is that straight men will put out, but they won't kiss you. So kissing and sensual behavior is part of what defines "gay sex". In pornography, it's a way of implying the sex is "real". It validates the "money shot".
>> And 2) Gay men's porn has kissing! (It's where I finally found my clear pictures ;-) There's other kinds of sensual touching depicted, not just the pleasuring of equipment ;-) Which I thought was very interesting! It suggests different biochemistry.*************
Coming out is a huge factor in gay sexuality - I don't think it's possible to overstate how big a factor it is. Not just coming out to other people, but discovering one has an "atypical" sexuality and learning to deal with that involves actively looking for other examples of other people who are similar. For gay men, in particular, the sight of men kissing other men has a gigantic personal impact - don't forget that straight men sometimes engage in male-on-male sexual behavior, and that's part of the mix. A truism of the gay community is that straight men will put out, but they won't kiss you. So kissing and sensual behavior is part of what defines "gay sex". In pornography, it's a way of implying the sex is "real". It validates the "money shot".
>
> On Sep 14, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> > I explained that hardcore porn objectifies women and is not
> > always a realistic demonstration of what happens in an intimate sexual relationship.
>
> Perhaps one of the draws of the pornography on the internet is that he found it. It feels like "his."
>
> One thing I would do is see if any United Church of Christ or Unitarian Universalist churches near you are offering the Our Whole Lives sexuality program for his age. (It's divided up usually by 2 year spans.) Check this ASAP. The programs should be starting soon.
>
> There was an interesting article in the New York Times about a (regular!) business woman who realized her younger lovers had learned a lot of their moves from pornography. She was inspired to create a website where people could upload videos of actual lovemaking.
>
> Spreading the Word (and Pictures) on `Real' Sex
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/09/fashion/cindy-gallops-online-effort-to-promote-real-not-porn-fed-sex.html
>
> You might want to read him the beginning of it to let him know that women can tell the difference between lovemaking and pornography and aren't too pleased with the results. ;-) It will be useful information for him.
>
> BUT, I suspect right now at 11 the sensual side of it doesn't interest him. It's the physical side. ( But it's not good, as in the article, if their understanding of the mechanics of sex comes strictly from porn.) When he's older, and ready for a relationship he will care so it's good he has access to both.
>
> BUT, again, men actually seem to be wired to need the physical side in their porn. The emotional side is not part of it. At least not in the porn. Generally.
>
> There's a -- clean! -- story behind that observation ;-) I've been drawing a comic for a while and one panel needed a couple locked in a sensual kiss. And I discovered it's *astonishingly* hard to find clear pictures of that.
>
> During the extensive search I realized two things:
>
> 1) Heterosexual men's porn has no kissing. Men, in fact, hardly even appear in the porn. The only part of the man that's important is his equipment. ;-) And for the woman, her part is to appear to be deriving physical pleasure from whatever the male equipment is doing to her.
>
> So that's the biochemistry your son is dealing with. Obviously heterosexual men do kiss in real life! :-) It's just they don't need it in their porn. So porn isn't about lovemaking.
>
> And 2) Gay men's porn has kissing! (It's where I finally found my clear pictures ;-) There's other kinds of sensual touching depicted, not just the pleasuring of equipment ;-) Which I thought was very interesting! It suggests different biochemistry.
>
> 3) I have no idea if there's actual lesbian porn. What's readily available of women together is probably for heterosexual men since it's all focused on physical pleasure.
>
> And 4) -- which is separate from the kissing picture research -- many women enjoy reading stories, reading graphic novels of men falling in love with each other and having very graphic sex. I'm sure it's existed forever, but it "came out of the closet" in the late 70's when women were able to share their fantasies on line beginning with Star Trek slash fiction between Kirk and Spock ;-)
>
> Sexually speaking, why would women want to read and look at men falling in love and having sex? Biologically speaking it's a dead end ;-) But the market for "boy's love" graphic novels (yaoi) is huge. (Google it :-) What's interesting is generally the men aren't gay. Partly because it would make the relationships too easy! ;-) But -- and I've pondered this for quite a while ;-) -- I think it has to do with the fact that for the men to fall in love with each other it requires a massive drop of any emotional barriers. I'm guessing women get turned on by emotional vulnerability in men.
>
> What it all comes down to is that sexuality is way more complex than it seems it needs to be ;-) What people like for arousal purposes doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what they enjoy doing in real life. How many women who enjoyed the early bodice busters where the women were generally raped initially by their eventual husbands, wanted to be raped themselves? If their moms had known exactly what they were reading, would they have been worried about their future ability to have loving sex?
>
> Joyce
>
Meredith
Kerryn LH <kerryn77@...> wrote:
http://anniesprinkle.org/
http://susiebright.com/
---Meredith
>> Betty Dodson is in her 80's and has rather a lotA couple of more modern names on the subject of sex-positive feminism are Susie Bright and Annie Sprinkle. Both have websites with links and info about porn, sex work, and related issues, lots and lots about female sexuality, and some links to erotica/pornography - Annie's site has a wider variety of links and more of them (Betty Dodson is linked on her site), Susie has written a lot of erotica and so most of the links are to her own work:
> to say on the topic of sex.
http://anniesprinkle.org/
http://susiebright.com/
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don�t think I have seen this mentioned yet but one of the things that I
have done is make sure that all of our computers are in a common area. If a
child is holed up by him/herself in another room on the Internet, it can be
easy to forget that the Internet is not private.-=-
But masturbation should be private.
So there's the problem.
Even if the computers are in a public area, sometimes everyone else is asleep. I would rather have allowed my boys the privacy of touching themselves with a door closed than out in the middle of a public, open space. I wouldn't want them to have those worries or associations. Let them have some privacy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have done is make sure that all of our computers are in a common area. If a
child is holed up by him/herself in another room on the Internet, it can be
easy to forget that the Internet is not private.-=-
But masturbation should be private.
So there's the problem.
Even if the computers are in a public area, sometimes everyone else is asleep. I would rather have allowed my boys the privacy of touching themselves with a door closed than out in the middle of a public, open space. I wouldn't want them to have those worries or associations. Let them have some privacy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vicki Dennis
Yes, I permitted closed doors and considered that a closed door meant
knocking is required.
For the sake of proper air conditioning (return air flow, air circulation)
lots of times all doors were open. Hence, my admonition that it others
are around be careful what is on the screen. Nice if the monitor is
positioned so that it does not absolutely face the door. No need to shut
it off or hide, just don't have (for me it was gore more than porn that I
wanted to be protected from!) it where I am caught unawares walking by to
the bathroom!
I do agree that it is best to avoid using home computers for any sort of
hard core porn. Some places may have laws against not only sites that have
images supposed to be of minors but against "making available" to minors
sites that utilize obviously adult performers. Not a morality issue, but a
pragmatic issue about laws. And some places are more repressed than
others. When people get arrested because they had pictures developed at the
drugstore of their children playing together in a bubble bath or running
around naked in their own house then....................
Don't "most" teens now use smartphones or tablets for web surfing? Is it
even possible to have all computers in a common area?
I especially liked Sandra's suggestion about action video games. I am not
familiar with the suggested games but I do know that there are quite a few
adult oriented (geared to males I think) action games. An 11 year old may
find as much excitement there as from hard core porn (which does tend to
have a limited plot line). In other words, rather than steering him to
more sensual soft core, encourage him to explore what around our house was
sometimes referred to as "when the zombies come" .
I still let my bias come through even as I made resources available and
provided assurances that their interest was not perverted. When they
didn't read until 9 and 12 I said "it will happen". When they spent hours
and days on video games on game systems (not much online back then but now
I think they do have "parties" and do online stuff) or watching bloody
action films I said "they will eventually move on". I tried not to
downplay their excitement in some current interest (even buying someone's
collection of 15 years of Playboy for the younger one!) but assured myself
and them that the obsession would likely pass.
Short version: I would not absolutely forbid the 11 year old from seeing
hardcore but would suggest that he might investigate some less risky
alternatives. Would also probably not check the history so much. Or
suggest that he learn a way to erase the history (is that possible?) But
assuredly, the mother might want to practice "don't look so
much"...........whether it is internet usage or tree climbing or extreme
sports.
vicki
vicki
knocking is required.
For the sake of proper air conditioning (return air flow, air circulation)
lots of times all doors were open. Hence, my admonition that it others
are around be careful what is on the screen. Nice if the monitor is
positioned so that it does not absolutely face the door. No need to shut
it off or hide, just don't have (for me it was gore more than porn that I
wanted to be protected from!) it where I am caught unawares walking by to
the bathroom!
I do agree that it is best to avoid using home computers for any sort of
hard core porn. Some places may have laws against not only sites that have
images supposed to be of minors but against "making available" to minors
sites that utilize obviously adult performers. Not a morality issue, but a
pragmatic issue about laws. And some places are more repressed than
others. When people get arrested because they had pictures developed at the
drugstore of their children playing together in a bubble bath or running
around naked in their own house then....................
Don't "most" teens now use smartphones or tablets for web surfing? Is it
even possible to have all computers in a common area?
I especially liked Sandra's suggestion about action video games. I am not
familiar with the suggested games but I do know that there are quite a few
adult oriented (geared to males I think) action games. An 11 year old may
find as much excitement there as from hard core porn (which does tend to
have a limited plot line). In other words, rather than steering him to
more sensual soft core, encourage him to explore what around our house was
sometimes referred to as "when the zombies come" .
I still let my bias come through even as I made resources available and
provided assurances that their interest was not perverted. When they
didn't read until 9 and 12 I said "it will happen". When they spent hours
and days on video games on game systems (not much online back then but now
I think they do have "parties" and do online stuff) or watching bloody
action films I said "they will eventually move on". I tried not to
downplay their excitement in some current interest (even buying someone's
collection of 15 years of Playboy for the younger one!) but assured myself
and them that the obsession would likely pass.
Short version: I would not absolutely forbid the 11 year old from seeing
hardcore but would suggest that he might investigate some less risky
alternatives. Would also probably not check the history so much. Or
suggest that he learn a way to erase the history (is that possible?) But
assuredly, the mother might want to practice "don't look so
much"...........whether it is internet usage or tree climbing or extreme
sports.
vicki
vicki
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-I don�t think I have seen this mentioned yet but one of the things that
> I
> have done is make sure that all of our computers are in a common area. If a
> child is holed up by him/herself in another room on the Internet, it can be
> easy to forget that the Internet is not private.-=-
>
> But masturbation should be private.
>
> So there's the problem.
>
> Even if the computers are in a public area, sometimes everyone else is
> asleep. I would rather have allowed my boys the privacy of touching
> themselves with a door closed than out in the middle of a public, open
> space. I wouldn't want them to have those worries or associations. Let
> them have some privacy.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
it is possible to delete history, or to use private browsing with mozilla
and google chrome, so there is no history recorded and you can use a proxy
server to change you address.
Marina
and google chrome, so there is no history recorded and you can use a proxy
server to change you address.
Marina
On 15 September 2012 15:50, Vicki Dennis <vicki@...> wrote:
> Yes, I permitted closed doors and considered that a closed door meant
> knocking is required.
> For the sake of proper air conditioning (return air flow, air circulation)
> lots of times all doors were open. Hence, my admonition that it others
> are around be careful what is on the screen. Nice if the monitor is
> positioned so that it does not absolutely face the door. No need to shut
> it off or hide, just don't have (for me it was gore more than porn that I
> wanted to be protected from!) it where I am caught unawares walking by to
> the bathroom!
>
> I do agree that it is best to avoid using home computers for any sort of
> hard core porn. Some places may have laws against not only sites that have
> images supposed to be of minors but against "making available" to minors
> sites that utilize obviously adult performers. Not a morality issue, but a
> pragmatic issue about laws. And some places are more repressed than
> others. When people get arrested because they had pictures developed at the
> drugstore of their children playing together in a bubble bath or running
> around naked in their own house then....................
>
> Don't "most" teens now use smartphones or tablets for web surfing? Is it
> even possible to have all computers in a common area?
>
> I especially liked Sandra's suggestion about action video games. I am not
> familiar with the suggested games but I do know that there are quite a few
> adult oriented (geared to males I think) action games. An 11 year old may
> find as much excitement there as from hard core porn (which does tend to
> have a limited plot line). In other words, rather than steering him to
> more sensual soft core, encourage him to explore what around our house was
> sometimes referred to as "when the zombies come" .
>
> I still let my bias come through even as I made resources available and
> provided assurances that their interest was not perverted. When they
> didn't read until 9 and 12 I said "it will happen". When they spent hours
> and days on video games on game systems (not much online back then but now
> I think they do have "parties" and do online stuff) or watching bloody
> action films I said "they will eventually move on". I tried not to
> downplay their excitement in some current interest (even buying someone's
> collection of 15 years of Playboy for the younger one!) but assured myself
> and them that the obsession would likely pass.
>
> Short version: I would not absolutely forbid the 11 year old from seeing
> hardcore but would suggest that he might investigate some less risky
> alternatives. Would also probably not check the history so much. Or
> suggest that he learn a way to erase the history (is that possible?) But
> assuredly, the mother might want to practice "don't look so
> much"...........whether it is internet usage or tree climbing or extreme
> sports.
>
> vicki
>
> vicki
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
> wrote:
>
> > -=-I don�t think I have seen this mentioned yet but one of the things
> that
> > I
> > have done is make sure that all of our computers are in a common area.
> If a
> > child is holed up by him/herself in another room on the Internet, it can
> be
> > easy to forget that the Internet is not private.-=-
> >
> > But masturbation should be private.
> >
> > So there's the problem.
> >
> > Even if the computers are in a public area, sometimes everyone else is
> > asleep. I would rather have allowed my boys the privacy of touching
> > themselves with a door closed than out in the middle of a public, open
> > space. I wouldn't want them to have those worries or associations. Let
> > them have some privacy.
> >
> > Sandra
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
--
*Quis hic locus, quae regio, quae mundi plaga?*
What seas what shores what grey rocks and what islands
What water lapping the bow
And scent of pine and the woodthrush singing through the fog
What images return
<http://goog_2075824263>
http://surrendertorandomobfuscation.blogspot.ca/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen
>>>>>I strewed additional resources around the house, I bought Kama Sutra books with very explicit pictures and explanations, I also purchased Jaiya New World Sex Educator's video on sex, where besides video footage of couples having explicit sex, she also discusses intimacy, touch, arousal, erogenous zones ..etc. I downloaded her video to his computer so he could feel free to watch it privately.<<<<<More options might include nudes and erotic images in art - Mapplethorp, Ritts, Farber come to mind, but there are many. There are also many, many erotic Japanese woodprint prints and carvings that speak of sexual relations in explicit and fun ways. A friend of mine liked to collect both. We usually found them in antique stores. I'm sure you could find them on Ebay as well.