"the right way"
Sandra Dodd
This is a quote from a discussion elsewhere, and over a year ago, so I'm not wantint to discuss that and where it came from, but the idea of it:
"What I felt a bit uneasy about was an assumption that there was a 'right' way of doing things that could make mothers feel guilty if they hadn't done it. "
I'm going to be a participant in a project from a blog called "Do Life Right" (Lisa Cottrell-Bentley's blog), and I have a similar agitation.
I think there are better and worse ways to unschool. I think there are ways that aren't unschooling at all. :-) But I'm not sure there's a single right way, except to be mindful and attentive and not full of shit. But that can't be carved over the doorway of Unschooling World.
But the beginning quote, which wasn't just about unschooling, I don't think, makes me bristle the other direction.
When people say "there's no one right way," it's true. But when they say it and hope to have others say, "No, you're right. Every single decision any mother made, any action any mother took, any situation any mother created is just as glorious and awesome as any other, because mothers are never, ever wrong," then I worry about their children.
I think mothers SHOULD feel guilty if they haven't done well. Maybe Well isn't the same as Right. But certainly it's possible for a mother to screw it all up horribly.
Because I have something coming up when I actually need to be as clear as I can be on what doing this right would be, I'd appreciate some discussion.
Thanks,
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"What I felt a bit uneasy about was an assumption that there was a 'right' way of doing things that could make mothers feel guilty if they hadn't done it. "
I'm going to be a participant in a project from a blog called "Do Life Right" (Lisa Cottrell-Bentley's blog), and I have a similar agitation.
I think there are better and worse ways to unschool. I think there are ways that aren't unschooling at all. :-) But I'm not sure there's a single right way, except to be mindful and attentive and not full of shit. But that can't be carved over the doorway of Unschooling World.
But the beginning quote, which wasn't just about unschooling, I don't think, makes me bristle the other direction.
When people say "there's no one right way," it's true. But when they say it and hope to have others say, "No, you're right. Every single decision any mother made, any action any mother took, any situation any mother created is just as glorious and awesome as any other, because mothers are never, ever wrong," then I worry about their children.
I think mothers SHOULD feel guilty if they haven't done well. Maybe Well isn't the same as Right. But certainly it's possible for a mother to screw it all up horribly.
Because I have something coming up when I actually need to be as clear as I can be on what doing this right would be, I'd appreciate some discussion.
Thanks,
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie
Sandra wrote:
<<Because I have something coming up when I actually need to be as clear as
I can be on what doing this right would be, I'd appreciate some
discussion.>>>
The words right and wrong are so judgment laden that they are about as
useful as Good and Bad. In fact, they are just different words for the same
thing. It's hard to not use them, however. But in any case, for me it's
about ownership of your choices. It isn't about what's right or wrong or
good or bad.
Sometimes what we take to be "bad choices" turn out to be "good choices,"
so even listening to guilt isn't all that helpful. You can't predict the
future, or control the possibilities and roads that open. All you can do is
affirm what you have done and move on to the next moment. There is no "right
way," there is just YOUR WAY, the one you have chosen, affirmed and
embraced.
Any discussion that discusses "a way" or "path" is logically flawed. It
ignores individuals and all the many contexts of life. Life isn't something
to be done "right," it is something to be lived, and loved -with all its
mistakes and flaws.
Julie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<Because I have something coming up when I actually need to be as clear as
I can be on what doing this right would be, I'd appreciate some
discussion.>>>
The words right and wrong are so judgment laden that they are about as
useful as Good and Bad. In fact, they are just different words for the same
thing. It's hard to not use them, however. But in any case, for me it's
about ownership of your choices. It isn't about what's right or wrong or
good or bad.
Sometimes what we take to be "bad choices" turn out to be "good choices,"
so even listening to guilt isn't all that helpful. You can't predict the
future, or control the possibilities and roads that open. All you can do is
affirm what you have done and move on to the next moment. There is no "right
way," there is just YOUR WAY, the one you have chosen, affirmed and
embraced.
Any discussion that discusses "a way" or "path" is logically flawed. It
ignores individuals and all the many contexts of life. Life isn't something
to be done "right," it is something to be lived, and loved -with all its
mistakes and flaws.
Julie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
You just never know what will be that will make damage your child in some way.
I like to tell a story that happen to me as a child. Many parents would not even
think about something so small but it was huge for me.
I am glad as a grew up, my mother was pretty amazing in a lot of ways and was supportive most of the time and in other big ways and I overcame that moment and was able to tell my mom what happened. It was not until I was on my 20's.
When I was a little girl, between 8 and 11 ( I do not remember exactly) we used to spend the weekends at my grandfather's mountain ranch. We loved it very much and it was heaven on earth.
ON the way there we stopped in a restaurant for lunch or a snack and one time in one of the little shops around it there were some doll clothes on sale and my mom said we could pick one for our dolls.
My sister picked a very colorful and bright one and I picked one in tan colors, like light fall colors.
My mom turned to me and said something like:
"Why don''t you get something more colorful and happy like your sister's?
That was a blow! I had loved the one I picked and the colors on it but my mom's idea of children's stuff was all bright and for her "happy" colors. I had been so excited about them. I did get them but felt I did not have good taste in clothes!!!!!
So my self steam got hurt. It took me years to pick something for me to dress in. Years. I would let others pick my clothes, or colors or do it but feel I probably picked something ugly.
My sister was very into fashion so I become a girl that dressed in whatever.
I screw up a lot too. I think we all need to stop and think and be mindful with our children.
Not a right way , but there are definitely ways that harm ,even little things like that which may not have been an issue for some kids but it is for others.
I have caught my self almost or starting to say things like that to my kids. I have stopped most times before I started. But it takes work.
There are some big ways that are wrong and anyone can see that. Verbal abuse or physical abuse comes to mind.
But there are small things too.
Principles. The more clear, to yourself, you are about your principles and making better choices, the better you will know how to respond to a child or a situation.
I am still working on it and still I screw up.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I like to tell a story that happen to me as a child. Many parents would not even
think about something so small but it was huge for me.
I am glad as a grew up, my mother was pretty amazing in a lot of ways and was supportive most of the time and in other big ways and I overcame that moment and was able to tell my mom what happened. It was not until I was on my 20's.
When I was a little girl, between 8 and 11 ( I do not remember exactly) we used to spend the weekends at my grandfather's mountain ranch. We loved it very much and it was heaven on earth.
ON the way there we stopped in a restaurant for lunch or a snack and one time in one of the little shops around it there were some doll clothes on sale and my mom said we could pick one for our dolls.
My sister picked a very colorful and bright one and I picked one in tan colors, like light fall colors.
My mom turned to me and said something like:
"Why don''t you get something more colorful and happy like your sister's?
That was a blow! I had loved the one I picked and the colors on it but my mom's idea of children's stuff was all bright and for her "happy" colors. I had been so excited about them. I did get them but felt I did not have good taste in clothes!!!!!
So my self steam got hurt. It took me years to pick something for me to dress in. Years. I would let others pick my clothes, or colors or do it but feel I probably picked something ugly.
My sister was very into fashion so I become a girl that dressed in whatever.
I screw up a lot too. I think we all need to stop and think and be mindful with our children.
Not a right way , but there are definitely ways that harm ,even little things like that which may not have been an issue for some kids but it is for others.
I have caught my self almost or starting to say things like that to my kids. I have stopped most times before I started. But it takes work.
There are some big ways that are wrong and anyone can see that. Verbal abuse or physical abuse comes to mind.
But there are small things too.
Principles. The more clear, to yourself, you are about your principles and making better choices, the better you will know how to respond to a child or a situation.
I am still working on it and still I screw up.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Alex Polikowsky wrote this:
-=-The more clear, to yourself, you are about your principles and making better choices, the better you will know how to respond to a child or a situation.-=-
I agree. I think it's worse to live by rules and scripts than to clarify how and why you are living as you live, and then being flexible while maintaining your integrity.
Alex is a native speaker of Portuguese, though her English is really great, but here's something interesting:
-=-So my self steam got hurt.-=-
I kind of like this; she lost steam.
Self esteem got hurt.
Parents can't be perfect, but they can aim in that direction.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-The more clear, to yourself, you are about your principles and making better choices, the better you will know how to respond to a child or a situation.-=-
I agree. I think it's worse to live by rules and scripts than to clarify how and why you are living as you live, and then being flexible while maintaining your integrity.
Alex is a native speaker of Portuguese, though her English is really great, but here's something interesting:
-=-So my self steam got hurt.-=-
I kind of like this; she lost steam.
Self esteem got hurt.
Parents can't be perfect, but they can aim in that direction.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Any discussion that discusses "a way" or "path" is logically flawed.-=-
I disagree with this.
Always Learning is probably the most logical parenting discussion I've ever seen and has lasted nearly 11 years now. There are paths that lead away from unschooling and paths that lead toward it. There are ways to do it better and ways to torpedo it irreparably.
Just because there's more than one way doesn't mean there's an infinite number of ways.
There's more than one way to get to Santa Fe from Albuquerque. There are four or five ways by road, one much better than any others; there's light rail; there's flight (impractical); there's walking (crazy). There are thousands of ways to leave Albuquerque and get to places far, far from Santa Fe.
-=-The words right and wrong are so judgment laden that they are about as
useful as Good and Bad. -=-
Without judgment, there can be no thought, though. What's better and worse has to do with one's perspective.
-=-Sometimes what we take to be "bad choices" turn out to be "good choices,"
so even listening to guilt isn't all that helpful. -=-
Salvaging a bad situation while not feeling at all guilty for having caused it?
-=- You can't predict the
future, or control the possibilities and roads that open. All you can do is
affirm what you have done and move on to the next moment. There is no "right
way," there is just YOUR WAY, the one you have chosen, affirmed and
embraced.-=-
I'm not going to "affirm" careless rudeness on my part. "My way" isn't just to accept everything I stumble into or over as something I chose or should embrace. Not everything I do is equally good, or chosen.
There are bad parents in the world who are not parenting right by ANYone's definition. I don't want to talk about them, but I also don't want to be grouped with them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I disagree with this.
Always Learning is probably the most logical parenting discussion I've ever seen and has lasted nearly 11 years now. There are paths that lead away from unschooling and paths that lead toward it. There are ways to do it better and ways to torpedo it irreparably.
Just because there's more than one way doesn't mean there's an infinite number of ways.
There's more than one way to get to Santa Fe from Albuquerque. There are four or five ways by road, one much better than any others; there's light rail; there's flight (impractical); there's walking (crazy). There are thousands of ways to leave Albuquerque and get to places far, far from Santa Fe.
-=-The words right and wrong are so judgment laden that they are about as
useful as Good and Bad. -=-
Without judgment, there can be no thought, though. What's better and worse has to do with one's perspective.
-=-Sometimes what we take to be "bad choices" turn out to be "good choices,"
so even listening to guilt isn't all that helpful. -=-
Salvaging a bad situation while not feeling at all guilty for having caused it?
-=- You can't predict the
future, or control the possibilities and roads that open. All you can do is
affirm what you have done and move on to the next moment. There is no "right
way," there is just YOUR WAY, the one you have chosen, affirmed and
embraced.-=-
I'm not going to "affirm" careless rudeness on my part. "My way" isn't just to accept everything I stumble into or over as something I chose or should embrace. Not everything I do is equally good, or chosen.
There are bad parents in the world who are not parenting right by ANYone's definition. I don't want to talk about them, but I also don't want to be grouped with them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
OK THis did not come out right;) !
"You just never know what will be that will make damage your child in some way."
You just never know what will damage a child's self.
Does that make sense now? English is not my first language so forgive me.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"You just never know what will be that will make damage your child in some way."
You just never know what will damage a child's self.
Does that make sense now? English is not my first language so forgive me.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robert and Colleen
****I think there are better and worse ways to unschool. I think there are
ways that aren't unschooling at all. :-) But I'm not sure there's a single
right way, except to be mindful and attentive and not full of shit. But that
can't be carved over the doorway of Unschooling World. ****
My thoughts when I read this -
Look at your kids. Really look at them and see who *they* are and not who
you want them to be. Get to know them. Be nice to them. Nicer than nice.
Be kind to them. Love them and kiss them and hug them and Be with them.
Play with them. Listen to them. Talk with them, not to them. Be patient
and calm. Love your spouse or partner, if you have one. Be kind and nice
and patient with your spouse or partner too. Love them and hug them and see
who they really are without trying to make them who you want them to be.
Remember that you are an important person, and grab moments where you can to
rest or eat or breathe or pause, so you can keep yourself in a happy place
when your kids or your spouse/partner are tired or crabby. Fill your house
with peace, toys, interesting things, good food, and love. Create
abundance, not scarcity, even if you have very little in terms of monetary
resources. Love and peace and happiness don't cost a thing :-) Say "yes" a
lot. Do things and go places and explore the world together with your
family - whether the world, to you, means your backyard, your neighborhood,
your town, your state/country, or a giant chunk of the globe. Share your
passions or interests with your kids and your partner, and revel in theirs.
Realize your unschooling life and someone else's unschooling life won't look
exactly just the same, and that's because your kids and their kids, your
partner and their partner, your house and their house, your interests and
their interests. they're not the same either. But still read, talk, and
think about what you are doing, and listen to what others are doing. Learn
from the example of people who have been there/done that, and be an example
for those who will come after you on the unschooling path.
That's what I think "Doing it Right" looks like :-)
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ways that aren't unschooling at all. :-) But I'm not sure there's a single
right way, except to be mindful and attentive and not full of shit. But that
can't be carved over the doorway of Unschooling World. ****
My thoughts when I read this -
Look at your kids. Really look at them and see who *they* are and not who
you want them to be. Get to know them. Be nice to them. Nicer than nice.
Be kind to them. Love them and kiss them and hug them and Be with them.
Play with them. Listen to them. Talk with them, not to them. Be patient
and calm. Love your spouse or partner, if you have one. Be kind and nice
and patient with your spouse or partner too. Love them and hug them and see
who they really are without trying to make them who you want them to be.
Remember that you are an important person, and grab moments where you can to
rest or eat or breathe or pause, so you can keep yourself in a happy place
when your kids or your spouse/partner are tired or crabby. Fill your house
with peace, toys, interesting things, good food, and love. Create
abundance, not scarcity, even if you have very little in terms of monetary
resources. Love and peace and happiness don't cost a thing :-) Say "yes" a
lot. Do things and go places and explore the world together with your
family - whether the world, to you, means your backyard, your neighborhood,
your town, your state/country, or a giant chunk of the globe. Share your
passions or interests with your kids and your partner, and revel in theirs.
Realize your unschooling life and someone else's unschooling life won't look
exactly just the same, and that's because your kids and their kids, your
partner and their partner, your house and their house, your interests and
their interests. they're not the same either. But still read, talk, and
think about what you are doing, and listen to what others are doing. Learn
from the example of people who have been there/done that, and be an example
for those who will come after you on the unschooling path.
That's what I think "Doing it Right" looks like :-)
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 28, 2012, at 8:31 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
I think the problem is that people don't realize they don't have a clear goal or lack an understanding of whether their goal is realistic. People can't figure out whether they're doing right -- making the choices that will move them towards their goal -- if they don't realize the goal they're headed for is a label that shifts to different places rather whimsically rather than a fixed point.
Most thinking parents want to be good parents. They want to raise their kids right. But what does good mean? What does right mean? For most parents the definition -- without them realizing it -- changes with each decision. Which is why decisions can seem so hard!
It would be like heading for San Francisco but at each cross roads you redefined what city you labeled "San Francisco" without realizing it.
If someone's goal is to be a good parent, does that mean correcting children when they misbehave, making them happy, instilling good values, encouraging choices that will lead them to being successful, independent people discouraging choices that will lead them away? Those aren't all compatible! One parent may label all of those "GOOD" -- or put them all in the box they carry around in their head that's labeled "GOOD" (which ever analogy helps you). But a choice that moves toward one will move away from others.
(In a way we're all playing with Madlibs without realizing it. ;-)
(As a side idea that's related but I haven't yet crystalized, in today's New York Times there's an article about Mitt Romney's publicity people's work to "humanize" him, part of which focuses on his sons to send the message that he's a "successful father." The blurb says: "For a campaign struggling to humanize its candidate, the Romney clan provides a camera-ready tableau for a point his advisers want to underscore: Policies aside, Mitt Romney is a successful father." Whether or not you agree with any of that, what's *implied* is that we obviously all agree we have a common definition of "successful father" that Mitt Romney's sons fit satisfyingly into. If there's one definition we're all working towards, and your children aren't like that, then a parent isn't being a "good" parent, isn't doing things "right".)
If someone's goal is to be kind, the choices become much clearer. (Though not completely clear because the goal is too narrow, too mechanical. Is it kind to give a child exactly what they want at the expense of someone else? If you can't be kind to both, is it better to be kinder to the child than an adult who can fend for themselves? (Hint: the unschooling answer is finding a way to meet the need AND be respectful.)
If someone's goal is to give their child the skills they need to be successful in life ... Well, it sounds wonderfully noble, the makings of a good and selfless parent :-) ... It even sounds doable *if* someone's understanding is children are empty vessels awaiting filling with the good stuff. But in actual practice it will clash with the reality that children aren't empty. They are born with inherent preferences and abilities that will draw them towards what will feed their inner needs and help them turn away from what won't. The more a parent pushes against their preferences rather than working with them, the more damage they'll cause both to the child and to the relationship.
If someone's goal is unschooling ... What does that mean? Does it mean following the "unschooling formula", making the "unschooling choices" -- "Don't ever ...", "Always ....", so your child will turn out "right"?
If, instead, someone sees the unschooling philosophy as a tool that is very useful for helping towards some goals -- but not others -- I think things become clearer.
If someone's goals are compatible with nurturing who their child is, are compatible with nurturing a child's ability to live peacefully with others while meeting their own needs, then the results are far more likely to turn out as you expect.
If someone's goal works against who their child is, works against the child growing an understanding of how to meet their needs AND take others into consideration, the results are likely to be iffy.
What makes it especially confusing is when a parent's goal, or their approach, works with their child's personality and it gets the child where the parent wanted them to be. The parent's "success" can then make them feel like they've discovered some universal truth about the right way to raise kids. But they just got lucky ;-) And that's why the results of trying to be a "good" parent can be so iffy. What works for some families, can be a disaster for other families. And the failed parents can feel like there's something wrong with them for not being able to make the "right" way work. (What's "wrong with them" is an educational system and parenting practices that focus on knowing the right answer rather than figuring out what answers can work for what goal you have. So many people spend their childhoods feeling wrong which carries into their adulthood. They end up feeling they need to rely on the people who already have the right answers because they don't have what it takes to just know.)
When the unschooling philosophy is combined with a compatible goal, the results are far more predictable than any other philosophy or goal because the tools and goals are compatible with human nature rather than dependent on a particular mix of personality. And then the tools support parents in exploring how the ideas can be put into practice in their family so they're compatible with the child's personality.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I think mothers SHOULD feel guilty if they haven't done well.This is part of what I'm working on for my talk for the December Always Learning Live. :-)
> Maybe Well isn't the same as Right. But certainly it's possible
> for a mother to screw it all up horribly.
I think the problem is that people don't realize they don't have a clear goal or lack an understanding of whether their goal is realistic. People can't figure out whether they're doing right -- making the choices that will move them towards their goal -- if they don't realize the goal they're headed for is a label that shifts to different places rather whimsically rather than a fixed point.
Most thinking parents want to be good parents. They want to raise their kids right. But what does good mean? What does right mean? For most parents the definition -- without them realizing it -- changes with each decision. Which is why decisions can seem so hard!
It would be like heading for San Francisco but at each cross roads you redefined what city you labeled "San Francisco" without realizing it.
If someone's goal is to be a good parent, does that mean correcting children when they misbehave, making them happy, instilling good values, encouraging choices that will lead them to being successful, independent people discouraging choices that will lead them away? Those aren't all compatible! One parent may label all of those "GOOD" -- or put them all in the box they carry around in their head that's labeled "GOOD" (which ever analogy helps you). But a choice that moves toward one will move away from others.
(In a way we're all playing with Madlibs without realizing it. ;-)
(As a side idea that's related but I haven't yet crystalized, in today's New York Times there's an article about Mitt Romney's publicity people's work to "humanize" him, part of which focuses on his sons to send the message that he's a "successful father." The blurb says: "For a campaign struggling to humanize its candidate, the Romney clan provides a camera-ready tableau for a point his advisers want to underscore: Policies aside, Mitt Romney is a successful father." Whether or not you agree with any of that, what's *implied* is that we obviously all agree we have a common definition of "successful father" that Mitt Romney's sons fit satisfyingly into. If there's one definition we're all working towards, and your children aren't like that, then a parent isn't being a "good" parent, isn't doing things "right".)
If someone's goal is to be kind, the choices become much clearer. (Though not completely clear because the goal is too narrow, too mechanical. Is it kind to give a child exactly what they want at the expense of someone else? If you can't be kind to both, is it better to be kinder to the child than an adult who can fend for themselves? (Hint: the unschooling answer is finding a way to meet the need AND be respectful.)
If someone's goal is to give their child the skills they need to be successful in life ... Well, it sounds wonderfully noble, the makings of a good and selfless parent :-) ... It even sounds doable *if* someone's understanding is children are empty vessels awaiting filling with the good stuff. But in actual practice it will clash with the reality that children aren't empty. They are born with inherent preferences and abilities that will draw them towards what will feed their inner needs and help them turn away from what won't. The more a parent pushes against their preferences rather than working with them, the more damage they'll cause both to the child and to the relationship.
If someone's goal is unschooling ... What does that mean? Does it mean following the "unschooling formula", making the "unschooling choices" -- "Don't ever ...", "Always ....", so your child will turn out "right"?
If, instead, someone sees the unschooling philosophy as a tool that is very useful for helping towards some goals -- but not others -- I think things become clearer.
If someone's goals are compatible with nurturing who their child is, are compatible with nurturing a child's ability to live peacefully with others while meeting their own needs, then the results are far more likely to turn out as you expect.
If someone's goal works against who their child is, works against the child growing an understanding of how to meet their needs AND take others into consideration, the results are likely to be iffy.
What makes it especially confusing is when a parent's goal, or their approach, works with their child's personality and it gets the child where the parent wanted them to be. The parent's "success" can then make them feel like they've discovered some universal truth about the right way to raise kids. But they just got lucky ;-) And that's why the results of trying to be a "good" parent can be so iffy. What works for some families, can be a disaster for other families. And the failed parents can feel like there's something wrong with them for not being able to make the "right" way work. (What's "wrong with them" is an educational system and parenting practices that focus on knowing the right answer rather than figuring out what answers can work for what goal you have. So many people spend their childhoods feeling wrong which carries into their adulthood. They end up feeling they need to rely on the people who already have the right answers because they don't have what it takes to just know.)
When the unschooling philosophy is combined with a compatible goal, the results are far more predictable than any other philosophy or goal because the tools and goals are compatible with human nature rather than dependent on a particular mix of personality. And then the tools support parents in exploring how the ideas can be put into practice in their family so they're compatible with the child's personality.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 28, 2012, at 9:24 AM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY wrote:
I'm sorry that happened to you :-(
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> "Why don''t you get something more colorful and happy like your sister's?Yes, exactly. The focus being on getting the answer "right" rather than finding the answer that's right for what you want.
I'm sorry that happened to you :-(
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 28, 2012, at 10:03 AM, Robert and Colleen wrote:
This is what all humans need. We need touch. We need kindness. We need respect. We need patience. We need energy in the environment around us. We need peace and security.
We need others to accept and like who we are. We need a community that supports our discovery of who we are. We need warm "I really love who you are" regard :-)
But what those look like in practice depends on the child. Some kids idea of "peace" will be very noisy! ;-) Some kids will needs loads of touch, more than a mom may realize or be prepared to give. Some kids will find touch confining or intrusive. Some kids need to be touched by kind words. Some kids need presence.
Know what humans need to be whole people. Know what will feed your child's inner-soul needs. Get to know your child to figure out what will help *him* feel his needs are being met.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Be nice to them. Nicer than nice.Which is all "emotion speak" for "be compatible with human nature."
> Be kind to them. Love them and kiss them and hug them and Be with them.
> Play with them. Listen to them. Talk with them, not to them. Be patient
> and calm. Love your spouse or partner, if you have one. Be kind and nice
> and patient with your spouse or partner too. Love them and hug them and see
> who they really are without trying to make them who you want them to be.
This is what all humans need. We need touch. We need kindness. We need respect. We need patience. We need energy in the environment around us. We need peace and security.
We need others to accept and like who we are. We need a community that supports our discovery of who we are. We need warm "I really love who you are" regard :-)
But what those look like in practice depends on the child. Some kids idea of "peace" will be very noisy! ;-) Some kids will needs loads of touch, more than a mom may realize or be prepared to give. Some kids will find touch confining or intrusive. Some kids need to be touched by kind words. Some kids need presence.
Know what humans need to be whole people. Know what will feed your child's inner-soul needs. Get to know your child to figure out what will help *him* feel his needs are being met.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pushpa Ramachandran
This is such a great thread..Until I came to this list, I was part of
another list that made me feel this way:
"If I didn't do it the right way, then I wasn't really unschooling"..
I have stopped reading that list after some threads on grandparents were
responded to in ways that would not include the grandparent's feelings in
anyway at all. So initially I was so up-in-arms about unschooling my child
that I was talking about "me ( and my child)" and "them (my family)"..
until I learnt here that I can "choose" to be kind to my family and the
whole team playing goes against the very philosophy of unschooling...
Being a certain way (in my case Radical Unschooling) with my child and
since I live in a joint (non-nuclear) family, does not make it okay for me
to not consider the values of people that live with me. What it requires is
lots of creative thinking (still working on it) to be able make that better
choice when faced with any situation...
So to me being that better mom translates to also being that better wife
and daughter-in-law while being that better mom..
That is something I have learnt from this list and I will always be
grateful for that....
Pushpa
another list that made me feel this way:
"If I didn't do it the right way, then I wasn't really unschooling"..
I have stopped reading that list after some threads on grandparents were
responded to in ways that would not include the grandparent's feelings in
anyway at all. So initially I was so up-in-arms about unschooling my child
that I was talking about "me ( and my child)" and "them (my family)"..
until I learnt here that I can "choose" to be kind to my family and the
whole team playing goes against the very philosophy of unschooling...
Being a certain way (in my case Radical Unschooling) with my child and
since I live in a joint (non-nuclear) family, does not make it okay for me
to not consider the values of people that live with me. What it requires is
lots of creative thinking (still working on it) to be able make that better
choice when faced with any situation...
So to me being that better mom translates to also being that better wife
and daughter-in-law while being that better mom..
That is something I have learnt from this list and I will always be
grateful for that....
Pushpa
On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 9:08 PM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
>
> On Aug 28, 2012, at 10:03 AM, Robert and Colleen wrote:
>
> > Be nice to them. Nicer than nice.
> > Be kind to them. Love them and kiss them and hug them and Be with them.
> > Play with them. Listen to them. Talk with them, not to them. Be patient
> > and calm. Love your spouse or partner, if you have one. Be kind and nice
> > and patient with your spouse or partner too. Love them and hug them and
> see
> > who they really are without trying to make them who you want them to be.
>
> Which is all "emotion speak" for "be compatible with human nature."
>
> This is what all humans need. We need touch. We need kindness. We need
> respect. We need patience. We need energy in the environment around us. We
> need peace and security.
>
> We need others to accept and like who we are. We need a community that
> supports our discovery of who we are. We need warm "I really love who you
> are" regard :-)
>
> But what those look like in practice depends on the child. Some kids idea
> of "peace" will be very noisy! ;-) Some kids will needs loads of touch,
> more than a mom may realize or be prepared to give. Some kids will find
> touch confining or intrusive. Some kids need to be touched by kind words.
> Some kids need presence.
>
> Know what humans need to be whole people. Know what will feed your child's
> inner-soul needs. Get to know your child to figure out what will help *him*
> feel his needs are being met.
>
> Joyce
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***There is no "right way," there is just YOUR WAY, the one you have chosen, affirmed and embraced.***
I don't agree with that at all. Children are removed from abusive homes all the time. I'm certain those parents weren't doing right for their children.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't agree with that at all. Children are removed from abusive homes all the time. I'm certain those parents weren't doing right for their children.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Parents can't be perfect, but they can aim in that direction.***
Interesting analogy! If you have a bow and arrow and you are trying to hit the target, then you are probably going to get it right at least part of the time. If you are spinning in circles and aiming and letting go, you probably won't ever hit it and when you do, it's one lucky shot!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Interesting analogy! If you have a bow and arrow and you are trying to hit the target, then you are probably going to get it right at least part of the time. If you are spinning in circles and aiming and letting go, you probably won't ever hit it and when you do, it's one lucky shot!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie
Sandra wrote:
<<Without judgment, there can be no thought, though. What's better and worse
has to do with one's perspective.>>>
Exactly. There may be better ways for different perspectives, but there can
still be multiple "right ways" within one perspective. If we value nature
and listening, and the growth of all plants, then there isn't THE "right
way," there can be many, and should be many. To deny multiple ways, we may
deny some plants the conditions of their growth.
Julie wrote:-=-Sometimes what we take to be "bad choices" turn out to be
"good choices,"
so even listening to guilt isn't all that helpful. -=-
Sandra wrote: <<Salvaging a bad situation while not feeling at all guilty
for having caused it?>>>
What I mean is that sometimes what seems like a bad choice or situation in
the moment actually turns out to be a good choice in the long run, but you
lack the perspective to see it as such.
Guilt is a funny thing. It is society in our heads. It isn't me owning what
I did, it's me feeling bad because I've been trained to feel bad. Supposedly
this feeling bad equates into ownership. I'm not sure that it does. Guilt
seems like hatred turned inward, a denial of self, a negation of self.
When I said before affirming mishaps, I meant "owning them," and only
thereby valuing them. Valuing them for how they shaped my current self, how
they taught me, guided me, help me to see things differently, etc. But at
the end of the day, acknowledging that "I" actually did them. Guilt seems to
me to be a pushing away of this ownership, it's like a "oh my, how could 'I'
do something like that."
In most parenting discussions, guilt is a dominate participant because
people are always telling others what they should do, as if there is a
"right way," making people feel less than because they aren't living up to
some more perfect ideal. I'm not sure how any of it is helpful, as most of
us know that what works for one kid may not work for another. It's hit and
miss a lot of the time. It's also not helpful because my ideal isn't
necessarily yours.
The absolute most helpful piece of parenting advice I have ever received was
from this list. The whole idea of there only being bad moments rather than
days created such a change in my existence. It didn't try to make me feel
guilty for not being a better parent. Instead, it acknowledge that I am
human, and fallible. That's helpful. Another aspect of this was ownership,
an acknowledgement that I willingly decided to do the things that /I/ am
doing, on my own chosen path.
In any case, my point was only that I object to "the," in "the right way."
It denies diversity of conditions. What should be in quotes is the "the,"
not the whole phrase. I also assumed that the discussion was only about
those trying to find "the right way." My bad.
Julie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<Without judgment, there can be no thought, though. What's better and worse
has to do with one's perspective.>>>
Exactly. There may be better ways for different perspectives, but there can
still be multiple "right ways" within one perspective. If we value nature
and listening, and the growth of all plants, then there isn't THE "right
way," there can be many, and should be many. To deny multiple ways, we may
deny some plants the conditions of their growth.
Julie wrote:-=-Sometimes what we take to be "bad choices" turn out to be
"good choices,"
so even listening to guilt isn't all that helpful. -=-
Sandra wrote: <<Salvaging a bad situation while not feeling at all guilty
for having caused it?>>>
What I mean is that sometimes what seems like a bad choice or situation in
the moment actually turns out to be a good choice in the long run, but you
lack the perspective to see it as such.
Guilt is a funny thing. It is society in our heads. It isn't me owning what
I did, it's me feeling bad because I've been trained to feel bad. Supposedly
this feeling bad equates into ownership. I'm not sure that it does. Guilt
seems like hatred turned inward, a denial of self, a negation of self.
When I said before affirming mishaps, I meant "owning them," and only
thereby valuing them. Valuing them for how they shaped my current self, how
they taught me, guided me, help me to see things differently, etc. But at
the end of the day, acknowledging that "I" actually did them. Guilt seems to
me to be a pushing away of this ownership, it's like a "oh my, how could 'I'
do something like that."
In most parenting discussions, guilt is a dominate participant because
people are always telling others what they should do, as if there is a
"right way," making people feel less than because they aren't living up to
some more perfect ideal. I'm not sure how any of it is helpful, as most of
us know that what works for one kid may not work for another. It's hit and
miss a lot of the time. It's also not helpful because my ideal isn't
necessarily yours.
The absolute most helpful piece of parenting advice I have ever received was
from this list. The whole idea of there only being bad moments rather than
days created such a change in my existence. It didn't try to make me feel
guilty for not being a better parent. Instead, it acknowledge that I am
human, and fallible. That's helpful. Another aspect of this was ownership,
an acknowledgement that I willingly decided to do the things that /I/ am
doing, on my own chosen path.
In any case, my point was only that I object to "the," in "the right way."
It denies diversity of conditions. What should be in quotes is the "the,"
not the whole phrase. I also assumed that the discussion was only about
those trying to find "the right way." My bad.
Julie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Supposedly this feeling bad equates into ownership. I'm not sure that it does. Guilt seems like hatred turned inward, a denial of self, a negation of self.***
I can see how that could be, but I really think guilt is our conscience telling us we've done something we shouldn't have and then feeling bad about it. Some people take guilt and turn it inward to self hatred and then pass the blame on other people. I've seen that happen plenty of times! I don't think that's a healthy way to process guilt. It's much better to acknowledge that you feel badly about something and then DO something about it that makes things better, not worse.
***I also assumed that the discussion was only about those trying to find "the right way."***
Yes and no. There are people who put on good shows for others, especially online, like dressing up for a club party where you don't have to actually expose who you are for real. The unschooling ideas might very well appeal to that person and they may very well try to do things "the right way", but get it wrong over and over without any kind of self reflection that causes a change for the better.
There are adults who are too defensive, too reactionary, to really do any kind of internal change to make unschooling work well. I don't think they are doing it right. That's my judgment. If guilt can help that person do better, then I'm all for a person feeling it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I can see how that could be, but I really think guilt is our conscience telling us we've done something we shouldn't have and then feeling bad about it. Some people take guilt and turn it inward to self hatred and then pass the blame on other people. I've seen that happen plenty of times! I don't think that's a healthy way to process guilt. It's much better to acknowledge that you feel badly about something and then DO something about it that makes things better, not worse.
***I also assumed that the discussion was only about those trying to find "the right way."***
Yes and no. There are people who put on good shows for others, especially online, like dressing up for a club party where you don't have to actually expose who you are for real. The unschooling ideas might very well appeal to that person and they may very well try to do things "the right way", but get it wrong over and over without any kind of self reflection that causes a change for the better.
There are adults who are too defensive, too reactionary, to really do any kind of internal change to make unschooling work well. I don't think they are doing it right. That's my judgment. If guilt can help that person do better, then I'm all for a person feeling it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- If we value nature
and listening, and the growth of all plants, then there isn't THE "right
way," there can be many, and should be many. To deny multiple ways, we may
deny some plants the conditions of their growth.-=-
I'm watching "Idiocracy." It's a movie that seems entirely worthless, but turns out to be profound. :-) People came to believe that Brawndo was what plants craved, because it had electrolytes. For 200 years people believed that, and all the plants died. People spoke in phrases they didn't understand. They said "Brawndo has what plants crave. It has electrolytes." When asked what electrolytes were, they said "Electrolytes are what plants crave."
It turned out plants needed water.
Some plants grow better in the desert than in the jungle and vice versa, but plants are different in the way different animals are different. Some plants grow under water. Some grow up in trees--mistletoe, and moss.
People are all human and learn the same way, but wondering and figuring things out, and making connections.
Birds, worms, lions and catfish don't all learn the same way people do. Your plant analogy would turn to "If we value nature and listening, and the growth of all animals, then there isn't THE 'right way,' there can be many, and should be many. To deny multiple ways, we may deny some animals the conditions of their growth."
There are many ways different animals grow and live. Some live in the water and some live in trees. Polar bears and lions can't change places and thrive.
There are ways of being that are bad for people, and things that help them.
-=-What I mean is that sometimes what seems like a bad choice or situation in
the moment actually turns out to be a good choice in the long run, but you
lack the perspective to see it as such.-=-
I understood what you meant. Sometimes there are unexpected outcomes.
If you mean to suggest that there's no basis on which anyone can make decisions, and that a random life is as good as a thoughtful life, it's very bad advice.
-=-Guilt is a funny thing. It is society in our heads. It isn't me owning what
I did, it's me feeling bad because I've been trained to feel bad. -=
I very much disagree with this. Regret isn't based on training. If by "training" you mean principles, courtesy, interpersonal skills, logic... then what about people learning those things on their own, seeing their value, and trying to be the best people they can be? People can care about other people without training. They can develop morality within themselves without growing up to resent and avoid "society in their heads."
-=-Supposedly this feeling bad equates into ownership. I'm not sure that it does. -=-
I don't know where you're getting your suppositions, though. There's nothing helpful in it.
-=- Supposedly this feeling bad equates into ownership.-=-
-=-When I said before affirming mishaps, I meant "owning them," and only
thereby valuing them.-=-
You're using "owning" two different ways, it seems, and neither seems helpful.
If I acknowledge and accept what I've done, sometimes I will feel satisfied with my choice, and sometimes I'll feel regret or remorse. Neither should be a permanent state, because there are more decisions to make all the time. Learning from mistakes is a big part of natural learning you seem to want to dispose of.
-=-Valuing them for how they shaped my current self, how
they taught me, guided me, help me to see things differently, etc.-=-
Please avoid "taught" here. http://sandradodd.com/teaching
-=-making people feel less than because they aren't living up to
some more perfect ideal. I'm not sure how any of it is helpful, as most of
us know that what works for one kid may not work for another. It's hit and
miss a lot of the time.-=-
I don't live my life in a "hit and miss" way. (The phrase is "hit or miss," and that's not a goal to strive for, either.)
People who live by principles have a direction, and aren't stumbling along hoping for mishaps to "teach and guide them."
-=-The absolute most helpful piece of parenting advice I have ever received was
from this list. The whole idea of there only being bad moments rather than
days created such a change in my existence.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/moment
That has helped me a lot, too.
-=-It didn't try to make me feel
guilty for not being a better parent. Instead, it acknowledge that I am
human, and fallible. That's helpful. -=-
"It" (that idea, that link, the discussion of living in moments rather than in bad days or good days) didn't try to make you feel guilty NOR did it "acknowledge" anything.
It's a tool.
The way you use the tool, and the way you feel about your decisions, is part of your own learning. It it has helped you to live in moments, that's great. But "it" didn't perceive you.
And part of the point of not declaring a whole day to be "a bad day" is because IF things aren't going well, the mother can say "That was a bad moment, and I can do better right now." Sometimes guilt is what might alert her to do better. Or regret, or remorse. No one was recommending that moments should be randomly "owned" without judgment or intention to do well and to be thoughtful and careful in the way we interact with our children and others.
-=- I also assumed that the discussion was only about
those trying to find "the right way." My bad.-=-
Every discussion on Always Learning should be about helping people understand unschooling better. That's the basis of and the purpose of the list. Please help when you can, and don't post when you can't.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and listening, and the growth of all plants, then there isn't THE "right
way," there can be many, and should be many. To deny multiple ways, we may
deny some plants the conditions of their growth.-=-
I'm watching "Idiocracy." It's a movie that seems entirely worthless, but turns out to be profound. :-) People came to believe that Brawndo was what plants craved, because it had electrolytes. For 200 years people believed that, and all the plants died. People spoke in phrases they didn't understand. They said "Brawndo has what plants crave. It has electrolytes." When asked what electrolytes were, they said "Electrolytes are what plants crave."
It turned out plants needed water.
Some plants grow better in the desert than in the jungle and vice versa, but plants are different in the way different animals are different. Some plants grow under water. Some grow up in trees--mistletoe, and moss.
People are all human and learn the same way, but wondering and figuring things out, and making connections.
Birds, worms, lions and catfish don't all learn the same way people do. Your plant analogy would turn to "If we value nature and listening, and the growth of all animals, then there isn't THE 'right way,' there can be many, and should be many. To deny multiple ways, we may deny some animals the conditions of their growth."
There are many ways different animals grow and live. Some live in the water and some live in trees. Polar bears and lions can't change places and thrive.
There are ways of being that are bad for people, and things that help them.
-=-What I mean is that sometimes what seems like a bad choice or situation in
the moment actually turns out to be a good choice in the long run, but you
lack the perspective to see it as such.-=-
I understood what you meant. Sometimes there are unexpected outcomes.
If you mean to suggest that there's no basis on which anyone can make decisions, and that a random life is as good as a thoughtful life, it's very bad advice.
-=-Guilt is a funny thing. It is society in our heads. It isn't me owning what
I did, it's me feeling bad because I've been trained to feel bad. -=
I very much disagree with this. Regret isn't based on training. If by "training" you mean principles, courtesy, interpersonal skills, logic... then what about people learning those things on their own, seeing their value, and trying to be the best people they can be? People can care about other people without training. They can develop morality within themselves without growing up to resent and avoid "society in their heads."
-=-Supposedly this feeling bad equates into ownership. I'm not sure that it does. -=-
I don't know where you're getting your suppositions, though. There's nothing helpful in it.
-=- Supposedly this feeling bad equates into ownership.-=-
-=-When I said before affirming mishaps, I meant "owning them," and only
thereby valuing them.-=-
You're using "owning" two different ways, it seems, and neither seems helpful.
If I acknowledge and accept what I've done, sometimes I will feel satisfied with my choice, and sometimes I'll feel regret or remorse. Neither should be a permanent state, because there are more decisions to make all the time. Learning from mistakes is a big part of natural learning you seem to want to dispose of.
-=-Valuing them for how they shaped my current self, how
they taught me, guided me, help me to see things differently, etc.-=-
Please avoid "taught" here. http://sandradodd.com/teaching
-=-making people feel less than because they aren't living up to
some more perfect ideal. I'm not sure how any of it is helpful, as most of
us know that what works for one kid may not work for another. It's hit and
miss a lot of the time.-=-
I don't live my life in a "hit and miss" way. (The phrase is "hit or miss," and that's not a goal to strive for, either.)
People who live by principles have a direction, and aren't stumbling along hoping for mishaps to "teach and guide them."
-=-The absolute most helpful piece of parenting advice I have ever received was
from this list. The whole idea of there only being bad moments rather than
days created such a change in my existence.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/moment
That has helped me a lot, too.
-=-It didn't try to make me feel
guilty for not being a better parent. Instead, it acknowledge that I am
human, and fallible. That's helpful. -=-
"It" (that idea, that link, the discussion of living in moments rather than in bad days or good days) didn't try to make you feel guilty NOR did it "acknowledge" anything.
It's a tool.
The way you use the tool, and the way you feel about your decisions, is part of your own learning. It it has helped you to live in moments, that's great. But "it" didn't perceive you.
And part of the point of not declaring a whole day to be "a bad day" is because IF things aren't going well, the mother can say "That was a bad moment, and I can do better right now." Sometimes guilt is what might alert her to do better. Or regret, or remorse. No one was recommending that moments should be randomly "owned" without judgment or intention to do well and to be thoughtful and careful in the way we interact with our children and others.
-=- I also assumed that the discussion was only about
those trying to find "the right way." My bad.-=-
Every discussion on Always Learning should be about helping people understand unschooling better. That's the basis of and the purpose of the list. Please help when you can, and don't post when you can't.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<Guilt is a funny thing. It is society in our heads. It isn't me owning what
I did, it's me feeling bad because I've been trained to feel bad. Supposedly
this feeling bad equates into ownership. I'm not sure that it does. Guilt
seems like hatred turned inward, a denial of self, a negation of self. >>>
I disagree. When I feel guilty for a choice I made towards my children it has nothing to do with society in my head.
When I chose to hit my son because I got aggravated I did not feel bad because society in my head tells me not to hit my child. The contrary
most would think that was the right thing to do. I feel guilty because that is not the way I want to be towards him, because I do not believe in spanking,
because I was did not make the "right choice" and the choice to hit him goes against my principles, values and everything I think will be good parenting.
It is very important to have goals and judge what are good choices or bad choices that you make having those principles in mind.
If one is not sure, or have not put much thoughts to it than one will not be able to decide what choices goes against his principles and the relationship you
want to create in your family.
<<<<"When I said before affirming mishaps, I meant "owning them," and only
thereby valuing them. Valuing them for how they shaped my current self, how
they taught me, guided me, help me to see things differently, etc. But at
the end of the day, acknowledging that "I" actually did them. Guilt seems to
me to be a pushing away of this ownership, it's like a "oh my, how could 'I'
do something like that." >>>
When I make a bad choice , I feel guilty, I also think about what are better choices I could have made and why. I decide that moment not
to repeat them. I do not stop and feel sorry for my self . I work on it. I think . I apologize if possible. I redo and do over , or re-word .
I think and decide right there to do better next time.
Once Schuyler Waynforth told me to just decide that moment to never hit my son again. That simple. And I did. I made a choice and decided to never do it again.
Not that I had decided to hit him before. I have never wanted to, but I did more than once as a reaction.
My decision was to not react that way again. To walk away and take a deep breath if I felt like doing it. |To chose a better reaction.
<<<<<In most parenting discussions, guilt is a dominate participant because
people are always telling others what they should do, as if there is a
"right way," making people feel less than because they aren't living up to
some more perfect ideal. I'm not sure how any of it is helpful, as most of
us know that what works for one kid may not work for another. It's hit and
miss a lot of the time. It's also not helpful because my ideal isn't
necessarily yours.>>>>
SOme people say that spanking works for their kids. I could care less if those parents who choose to spank feel guilty.
They should feel guilty.
I have hit my son. I felt super guilty. I would be horrified if I did not.
<<<The absolute most helpful piece of parenting advice I have ever received was
from this list. The whole idea of there only being bad moments rather than
days created such a change in my existence. It didn't try to make me feel
guilty for not being a better parent. Instead, it acknowledge that I am
human, and fallible. That's helpful. Another aspect of this was ownership,
an acknowledgement that I willingly decided to do the things that /I/ am
doing, on my own chosen path.
In any case, my point was only that I object to "the," in "the right way."
It denies diversity of conditions. What should be in quotes is the "the,"
not the whole phrase. I also assumed that the discussion was only about
those trying to find "the right way." My bad."">>>
The way unschooling happens in my home will be different than my friend in NYC.
SHe will be close to a big city with all its opportuniti , I live in a Dairy Farm. Just that makes our lives with our kids very different.
But we have the same goals in how we want to live with our kids, what kind of relationship we want to develop with them.
We both want to create a wonderful learning environment. We may have similar values and principles but our days
look very different. Different kids, different likes and dislikes, different personalities, different homes, city, friends...
IF I made my kids be what they are not, if I made my kids eat what I thought was healthy,, and only do things I valued them that would not be a right way to radically unschool. I could still say I was an unschooler but I would be full of BS!
Alex Polikowksy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I did, it's me feeling bad because I've been trained to feel bad. Supposedly
this feeling bad equates into ownership. I'm not sure that it does. Guilt
seems like hatred turned inward, a denial of self, a negation of self. >>>
I disagree. When I feel guilty for a choice I made towards my children it has nothing to do with society in my head.
When I chose to hit my son because I got aggravated I did not feel bad because society in my head tells me not to hit my child. The contrary
most would think that was the right thing to do. I feel guilty because that is not the way I want to be towards him, because I do not believe in spanking,
because I was did not make the "right choice" and the choice to hit him goes against my principles, values and everything I think will be good parenting.
It is very important to have goals and judge what are good choices or bad choices that you make having those principles in mind.
If one is not sure, or have not put much thoughts to it than one will not be able to decide what choices goes against his principles and the relationship you
want to create in your family.
<<<<"When I said before affirming mishaps, I meant "owning them," and only
thereby valuing them. Valuing them for how they shaped my current self, how
they taught me, guided me, help me to see things differently, etc. But at
the end of the day, acknowledging that "I" actually did them. Guilt seems to
me to be a pushing away of this ownership, it's like a "oh my, how could 'I'
do something like that." >>>
When I make a bad choice , I feel guilty, I also think about what are better choices I could have made and why. I decide that moment not
to repeat them. I do not stop and feel sorry for my self . I work on it. I think . I apologize if possible. I redo and do over , or re-word .
I think and decide right there to do better next time.
Once Schuyler Waynforth told me to just decide that moment to never hit my son again. That simple. And I did. I made a choice and decided to never do it again.
Not that I had decided to hit him before. I have never wanted to, but I did more than once as a reaction.
My decision was to not react that way again. To walk away and take a deep breath if I felt like doing it. |To chose a better reaction.
<<<<<In most parenting discussions, guilt is a dominate participant because
people are always telling others what they should do, as if there is a
"right way," making people feel less than because they aren't living up to
some more perfect ideal. I'm not sure how any of it is helpful, as most of
us know that what works for one kid may not work for another. It's hit and
miss a lot of the time. It's also not helpful because my ideal isn't
necessarily yours.>>>>
SOme people say that spanking works for their kids. I could care less if those parents who choose to spank feel guilty.
They should feel guilty.
I have hit my son. I felt super guilty. I would be horrified if I did not.
<<<The absolute most helpful piece of parenting advice I have ever received was
from this list. The whole idea of there only being bad moments rather than
days created such a change in my existence. It didn't try to make me feel
guilty for not being a better parent. Instead, it acknowledge that I am
human, and fallible. That's helpful. Another aspect of this was ownership,
an acknowledgement that I willingly decided to do the things that /I/ am
doing, on my own chosen path.
In any case, my point was only that I object to "the," in "the right way."
It denies diversity of conditions. What should be in quotes is the "the,"
not the whole phrase. I also assumed that the discussion was only about
those trying to find "the right way." My bad."">>>
The way unschooling happens in my home will be different than my friend in NYC.
SHe will be close to a big city with all its opportuniti , I live in a Dairy Farm. Just that makes our lives with our kids very different.
But we have the same goals in how we want to live with our kids, what kind of relationship we want to develop with them.
We both want to create a wonderful learning environment. We may have similar values and principles but our days
look very different. Different kids, different likes and dislikes, different personalities, different homes, city, friends...
IF I made my kids be what they are not, if I made my kids eat what I thought was healthy,, and only do things I valued them that would not be a right way to radically unschool. I could still say I was an unschooler but I would be full of BS!
Alex Polikowksy
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Once Schuyler Waynforth told me to just decide that moment to never hit my son again. That simple. And I did. I made a choice and decided to never do it again.
Not that I had decided to hit him before. I have never wanted to, but I did more than once as a reaction.
My decision was to not react that way again. To walk away and take a deep breath if I felt like doing it. |To chose a better reaction.-=-
Acting and reacting without conscious thought is a problem no matter what the results are, *IF* the goal is to live a mindful, thoughtful life and to set an example for one's child(ren) of making good choices.
Probably the main topic of my "doing unschooling right" video will be about making choices.
It's not that all choices will be the same, it's that any life lived in a kneejerk, thoughtless way is going to be doomed to a low level of joy and awareness.
I have lived a life of conscience. If I only allowed myself to feel supportive and proud of everything I did, whether by choice or random hit-or-miss chance, that would not be living by conscience. It would be painting over mistakes with a brush of "acceptance" and justifying carelessness.
There's nothing right about that.
Sandra
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Not that I had decided to hit him before. I have never wanted to, but I did more than once as a reaction.
My decision was to not react that way again. To walk away and take a deep breath if I felt like doing it. |To chose a better reaction.-=-
Acting and reacting without conscious thought is a problem no matter what the results are, *IF* the goal is to live a mindful, thoughtful life and to set an example for one's child(ren) of making good choices.
Probably the main topic of my "doing unschooling right" video will be about making choices.
It's not that all choices will be the same, it's that any life lived in a kneejerk, thoughtless way is going to be doomed to a low level of joy and awareness.
I have lived a life of conscience. If I only allowed myself to feel supportive and proud of everything I did, whether by choice or random hit-or-miss chance, that would not be living by conscience. It would be painting over mistakes with a brush of "acceptance" and justifying carelessness.
There's nothing right about that.
Sandra
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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<Acting and reacting without conscious thought is a problem no matter what the results are, *IF* the goal is to live a mindful, thoughtful life and to set an example for one's child(ren) of making good choices.
It's not that all choices will be the same, it's that any life lived in a kneejerk, thoughtless way is going to be doomed to a low level of joy and awareness. >>>
Making conscious decisions, thinking before reacting, talking and choosing words to talk or write, being mindful and having clarity in my thoughts.
Those are probably what I learned the most with unschooling and the discussions in this list.
Not that I was someone careless with my words, thoughts or reactions.
The clarity in the discussions here, that has completely changed me for better, a better person, mother and wife.
I am still learning every day to make better choices, to think more clear, to be more mindful in every though, word and action.
Thank you all that have been so dedicated to making other families lives better, to sharing your lives.
Thank you Sandra for all you do.
Alex Polikowsky
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It's not that all choices will be the same, it's that any life lived in a kneejerk, thoughtless way is going to be doomed to a low level of joy and awareness. >>>
Making conscious decisions, thinking before reacting, talking and choosing words to talk or write, being mindful and having clarity in my thoughts.
Those are probably what I learned the most with unschooling and the discussions in this list.
Not that I was someone careless with my words, thoughts or reactions.
The clarity in the discussions here, that has completely changed me for better, a better person, mother and wife.
I am still learning every day to make better choices, to think more clear, to be more mindful in every though, word and action.
Thank you all that have been so dedicated to making other families lives better, to sharing your lives.
Thank you Sandra for all you do.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 28, 2012, at 10:05 PM, Julie wrote:
If one's goal is to live thoughtfully, it's good to examine whether what those voices are saying is true or not.
If it's true, use the guilt to make a better choice next time.
Maybe you're using the word guilt to mean something different than most people.
Simpler, more helpful for anyone, is becoming clear where you want to go, who you want to be.
Then, before reacting, give yourself two choices. Make the choice that's better at moving you towards where you want to go, who you want to be.
How someone does that, depending on their baggage, may look different from person to person. But the essence will be the same.
If you think of guilt-tripping others as an artifact -- it may even be a biological tendency we all have -- an artifact that helped people work together better which increased the security and safety of everyone in the group maybe it will help you let it slide off of you when people try to do that.
I think this list isn't a good fit for people who beat themselves up over past choices. This list is chock full of "do this instead" advice, not to make all people act the same, but to create a body of information focused on a very specific way of doing things.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Guilt is a funny thing. It is society in our heads.Guilt is a voice in our heads tell us what we did wasn't right for who we want to be. It might come from a message from our past. It might be our own thoughts.
If one's goal is to live thoughtfully, it's good to examine whether what those voices are saying is true or not.
If it's true, use the guilt to make a better choice next time.
> Guilt seems like hatred turned inward, a denial of self, a negation of self.So if you strike someone, the resulting guilt comes from self hatred?
Maybe you're using the word guilt to mean something different than most people.
> In most parenting discussions, guilt is a dominate participant becauseGuilt seems like a personal hot button of yours. If this chain of thought you're describing has helped you make more mindful choices towards who you want to be, good! But it's too full of potential mines that could cause someone else to not do that.
> people are always telling others what they should do, as if there is a
> "right way," making people feel less than because they aren't living up to
> some more perfect ideal.
Simpler, more helpful for anyone, is becoming clear where you want to go, who you want to be.
Then, before reacting, give yourself two choices. Make the choice that's better at moving you towards where you want to go, who you want to be.
How someone does that, depending on their baggage, may look different from person to person. But the essence will be the same.
> I'm not sure how any of it is helpful, as most ofTraditionally it was useful to keep the culture uniform. The fewer differences, the more peaceful the group.
> us know that what works for one kid may not work for another. It's hit and
> miss a lot of the time. It's also not helpful because my ideal isn't
> necessarily yours.
If you think of guilt-tripping others as an artifact -- it may even be a biological tendency we all have -- an artifact that helped people work together better which increased the security and safety of everyone in the group maybe it will help you let it slide off of you when people try to do that.
I think this list isn't a good fit for people who beat themselves up over past choices. This list is chock full of "do this instead" advice, not to make all people act the same, but to create a body of information focused on a very specific way of doing things.
Joyce
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Julie
Julie wrote:
-=-What I mean is that sometimes what seems like a bad choice or situation
in
the moment actually turns out to be a good choice in the long run, but you
lack the perspective to see it as such.-=-
Sandra wrote:
I understood what you meant. Sometimes there are unexpected outcomes.
If you mean to suggest that there's no basis on which anyone can make
decisions, and that a random life is as good as a thoughtful life, it's very
bad advice.
I didn't mean that at all, all I meant is that we can only make the best
choice we can at the moment, but this doesn't mean it will turn out to be a
good choice. The path isn't always clear while you are on it, we can aim and
fire, but we don't always get where we think we are going, no matter how
much we strive to live by our principles, etc.
Julie:-=-Supposedly this feeling bad equates into ownership. I'm not sure
that it does. -=-
Sandra:
If I acknowledge and accept what I've done, sometimes I will feel satisfied
with my choice, and sometimes I'll feel regret or remorse. Neither should be
a permanent state, because there are more decisions to make all the time.
Learning from mistakes is a big part of natural learning you seem to want to
dispose of.
I am not trying to dispose of it, all I am saying is that talk of guilt
isn't helpful. Your original email said mother's that screw it up should
feel very badly. I think there is enough guilt in parenting discussions. I
do not find it helpful. It just makes people feel bad. It doesn't give them
tools.
Pains of consciousness are important and necessary in many ways in striving
towards reaching your principles, but it seems like parenting talks revert
to making people feel bad about how badly they parent, about their bad
choices, their bad whatever. I don't find any of it helpful.
Sandra:
I don't live my life in a "hit and miss" way. (The phrase is "hit or miss,"
and that's not a goal to strive for, either.)
By hit or miss I don't mean not making conscious choices based on
principles, I mean that we cannot always control what happens. We can strive
and reach and aim, but misfires happen. When they do, having easy tools to
get back on track is helpful. Sitting around feeling badly isn't.
Julie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-What I mean is that sometimes what seems like a bad choice or situation
in
the moment actually turns out to be a good choice in the long run, but you
lack the perspective to see it as such.-=-
Sandra wrote:
I understood what you meant. Sometimes there are unexpected outcomes.
If you mean to suggest that there's no basis on which anyone can make
decisions, and that a random life is as good as a thoughtful life, it's very
bad advice.
I didn't mean that at all, all I meant is that we can only make the best
choice we can at the moment, but this doesn't mean it will turn out to be a
good choice. The path isn't always clear while you are on it, we can aim and
fire, but we don't always get where we think we are going, no matter how
much we strive to live by our principles, etc.
Julie:-=-Supposedly this feeling bad equates into ownership. I'm not sure
that it does. -=-
Sandra:
If I acknowledge and accept what I've done, sometimes I will feel satisfied
with my choice, and sometimes I'll feel regret or remorse. Neither should be
a permanent state, because there are more decisions to make all the time.
Learning from mistakes is a big part of natural learning you seem to want to
dispose of.
I am not trying to dispose of it, all I am saying is that talk of guilt
isn't helpful. Your original email said mother's that screw it up should
feel very badly. I think there is enough guilt in parenting discussions. I
do not find it helpful. It just makes people feel bad. It doesn't give them
tools.
Pains of consciousness are important and necessary in many ways in striving
towards reaching your principles, but it seems like parenting talks revert
to making people feel bad about how badly they parent, about their bad
choices, their bad whatever. I don't find any of it helpful.
Sandra:
I don't live my life in a "hit and miss" way. (The phrase is "hit or miss,"
and that's not a goal to strive for, either.)
By hit or miss I don't mean not making conscious choices based on
principles, I mean that we cannot always control what happens. We can strive
and reach and aim, but misfires happen. When they do, having easy tools to
get back on track is helpful. Sitting around feeling badly isn't.
Julie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 29, 2012, at 8:18 AM, Julie wrote:
It helps to let go of there being a right answer and instead focus on solution*s* that are better for the goal you want and solutions that aren't as good.
Making choices, making even better choices, means you'll be making choices that don't turn out as expected. You'll make choices that have both upsides and downsides mixed together. It's part of the learning process. You look at what happened, figure out why, and use that information so you choice can be better next time.
That "right answer", though, is separate from what Sandra's talking about. There *are* some universal rights and wrongs in how we treat people. Being kind *is* better than being unkind. People make collections of what they believe are rights and wrongs and call them a philosophy. :-) There can be right and wrong choices, better and not as good choices, if someone's wish is to follow the philosophy.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> all I meant is that we can only make the bestI think where your baggage might be is having grown up with the idea that you need to have the right answer, otherwise you're wrong.
> choice we can at the moment, but this doesn't mean it will turn out to be a
> good choice.
It helps to let go of there being a right answer and instead focus on solution*s* that are better for the goal you want and solutions that aren't as good.
Making choices, making even better choices, means you'll be making choices that don't turn out as expected. You'll make choices that have both upsides and downsides mixed together. It's part of the learning process. You look at what happened, figure out why, and use that information so you choice can be better next time.
That "right answer", though, is separate from what Sandra's talking about. There *are* some universal rights and wrongs in how we treat people. Being kind *is* better than being unkind. People make collections of what they believe are rights and wrongs and call them a philosophy. :-) There can be right and wrong choices, better and not as good choices, if someone's wish is to follow the philosophy.
Joyce
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teresa
--- In [email protected], Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
To me, it feels right when I'm taking action that expand their worlds, nourish and grow their relationships, and help them get their needs met in healthy ways.
It feels wrong when I restrict their world, stymie their relationships, and don't prioritize their needs. Sometimes, that happens for reasons I can't control. Those are maybe like side-steps. I try to get quickly back on the path.
But even if I screw up and choose wrong or do wrong unthinkingly, I can move back in the right direction by not getting defensive, reactionary, or mired in self-loathing but rather fixing what pieces I can and taking some concrete lesson for myself to apply next time.
I think choosing to evolve as a parent and partner is a huge part of doing unschooling right. Or maybe it's less like evolution and more like tuning an instrument or a machine, making a series of small adjustments that over time help the parent to develop a habit of acting and responding that helps learning and relationships to be enjoyable and smooth.
Teresa
mama to Woody (6 1/2) and Fox (3 1/2)
>I agree with this. It's a good bellwether for me, too. If, in a decision-making moment with my kids, my inner dialog goes all defensive and reactionary, I'm probably not about to move in the right direction.
> There are adults who are too defensive, too reactionary, to really do any kind of internal change to make unschooling work well. I don't think they are doing it right. >
To me, it feels right when I'm taking action that expand their worlds, nourish and grow their relationships, and help them get their needs met in healthy ways.
It feels wrong when I restrict their world, stymie their relationships, and don't prioritize their needs. Sometimes, that happens for reasons I can't control. Those are maybe like side-steps. I try to get quickly back on the path.
But even if I screw up and choose wrong or do wrong unthinkingly, I can move back in the right direction by not getting defensive, reactionary, or mired in self-loathing but rather fixing what pieces I can and taking some concrete lesson for myself to apply next time.
I think choosing to evolve as a parent and partner is a huge part of doing unschooling right. Or maybe it's less like evolution and more like tuning an instrument or a machine, making a series of small adjustments that over time help the parent to develop a habit of acting and responding that helps learning and relationships to be enjoyable and smooth.
Teresa
mama to Woody (6 1/2) and Fox (3 1/2)
otherstar
>>>>>>What I mean is that sometimes what seems like a bad choice orThere are also times when a decision seems like a good one until after you
>>>>>>situation in the moment actually turns out to be a good choice in the
>>>>>>long run, but you lack the perspective to see it as such.<<<<<
see the consequences of it. It can sometimes be difficult to predict whether
a choice is good or bad. Even if you aren’t sure if something is good or
bad, you can still make thoughtful decisions and evaluate things as you go.
The only way to continually evaluate is if you have some sort of direction
in mind. I have tried to be very thoughtful with my kids but there are times
when I forget an important piece of information and say or do something that
is wrong. I am not willing to justify bad decisions by saying things like
“it will all be okay in the long run”. Maybe it will and maybe it won’t.
>>>>>>>>>In most parenting discussions, guilt is a dominate participantOne of the really interesting things that have happened to me since I have
>>>>>>>>>because people are always telling others what they should do, as if
>>>>>>>>>there is a "right way," making people feel less than because they
>>>>>>>>>aren't living up to some more perfect ideal. I'm not sure how any
>>>>>>>>>of it is helpful, as most of us know that what works for one kid
>>>>>>>>>may not work for another. It's hit and miss a lot of the time. It's
>>>>>>>>>also not helpful because my ideal isn't necessarily
>>>>>>>>>yours.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
become more thoughtful and more mindful is that I don’t really have people
telling me what to do any more. At one time, my mother in law and I did not
get along. I felt like she was telling me what to do and it was very much
what is being described here. As I started trying to see things from other
people’s perspectives, I became more understanding and more compassionate. I
also became more confident in myself. I spent an hour and a half on the
phone with my mother in law yesterday and she didn’t once tell me what to do
nor did she question my parenting. Actually, she was very encouraging and
complementary to me and our girls. That is a very different picture than the
way things were five years ago. Five years ago, we were in a power struggle
over being right. When I let go of that and started really trying to see
things from her perspective, I changed and so did our relationship. A lot of
times, people are saying things based on what they observe. If somebody
observes a family where the children are jerks and the mom is tired and
frazzled, then that seems like a situation where other people are going to
see an opportunity to “educate” you. When my oldest was a toddler, I had
somebody sit me down and give me a “lesson” on child discipline. I smiled
and nodded and then went on my way. I pretty much ignored it because I knew
that her goal and my goal were very, very different. If I hadn’t known that
we wanted very different things for our children, I might have been tempted
to feel bad.
The idea of things being hit and miss seems like an excuse to do things
willy nilly. I think I understand what you are saying but it can lead to
lots of confusion. I do think there is a right way and that right way
focuses on the process rather than a single product. I have been reading,
thinking, and writing about making ethical decisions and I think it is a
good model to follow because it focuses on the process rather than the
outcome. The process of making an ethical decision has a built in evaluation
mechanism so that you can think, evaluate, and adjust if a decision turns
out to be bad or have unintended consequences. Even if your ideal isn’t the
same as mine, there are some things that I think are universal. Here is a
link to one source that has a little bit of information about making ethical
decisions: http://www.scu.edu/ethics/practicing/decision/making.pdf
Connie
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otherstar
>>>>>>I didn't mean that at all, all I meant is that we can only make thechoice we can at the moment, but this doesn't mean it will turn out to be a
>>>>>>best
good choice. The path isn't always clear while you are on it, we can aim and
fire, but we don't always get where we think we are going, no matter how
much we strive to live by our principles, etc.<<<<<<<<
It isn’t possible to predict the future and know with certainty that every
single decision is going to have a good outcome. I can, however, know that I
have evaluated all of the information that I have so that I can attempt to
make a good decision. If I have made an attempt to weigh all of the options
and make a good decision, then I am okay when things go wrong because I know
that I have put forth time and effort and thought. The times when I feel bad
are the times when I make mistakes because I didn’t take the time to make an
effort and put some thought into what I was doing. When I read what was
written above, it makes it too easy to throw up your hands and say “why
bother?” because nothing that I do is going to matter because I can’t know
with any kind of certainty that a decision is going to be good or bad. I am
not willing to live like that. I want to be as thoughtful as possible as
often as I can. I sometimes fall short but at least I have something to keep
me on track so that I don’t get discouraged.
>>>>>>>>I am not trying to dispose of it, all I am saying is that talk ofisn't helpful. Your original email said mother's that screw it up should
>>>>>>>>guilt
feel very badly. I think there is enough guilt in parenting discussions. I
do not find it helpful. It just makes people feel bad. It doesn't give them
tools. <<<<<<<<<
Sometimes, parents feel bad and miss the fact that others are trying to help
give them tools. I have been a part of several discussions where I have
tried to help other parents evaluate the situation and develop tools to
address whatever it was that was brought up. The parent is so defensive that
everything that is said is taken personally and all attempts at helping them
find or develop tools are completely missed. I don’t think you can have it
both ways. I don’t know how you can give a person tools without pointing out
the problem with the current tools (or lack thereof). That is one of the
things that I have had had a difficult time navigating. I want to be
thoughtful and mindful towards ALL people but there are times when sharing
potentially helpful information will lead to a shit storm. Sometimes people
need to use the feelings of guilt as an impetus to do better rather than
wallowing in it to get attention and pity. (My mom has a tendency to have
disasters and feel bad about stuff as a way to get attention and pats on the
back. She doesn’t really have a desire to do better. She just wants people
to pat her on the back and tell her how awesome she is.)
>>>>>>>Pains of consciousness are important and necessary in many ways intowards reaching your principles, but it seems like parenting talks revert
>>>>>>>striving
to making people feel bad about how badly they parent, about their bad
choices, their bad whatever. I don't find any of it helpful. <<<<<<<
I think one of the things that is missed is the fact that different people
have different parenting goals. To use Sandra’s example of going on a trip,
it is like telling each other where to turn without verifying the
destination. If two people are going to Albuquerque, then sharing ideas on
how to get there might be worthwhile. If one person is going to Albuquerque
and the other is going to New York, it wouldn’t be very helpful to discuss
the specifics such as where to turn and what streets to use. There might be
some things in common such as how to calculate gas mileage but the
individual streets to be traveled will be very different. If you are having
a discussion without knowing that the two of you have very different
destinations, then there will be times that nothing makes sense. It will be
like trying to have a conversation in two different languages. If I know
that somebody has a very different destination than me, I don’t feel guilty
for being different. If something Sandra or Meredith or Joyce or Brie, etc.
says makes me feel guilty, then I am going to think long and hard about why
what they said made me feel that way and I am damn sure going to try to do
better. One of the things that I don’t think has been mentioned yet in this
thread is checks and balances. I sometimes feel like moms want to do
whatever they want without ever feeling bad and without every having their
parenting checked. I use feelings of guilt to check myself. I also make sure
that our house is one where my husband and children can and will say
something if I get too far afield. Even my mom will sometimes say something
if she notices me being particularly crabby. I don’t see that as them trying
to make me feel bad about my choices. I see it as them trying to help me and
keep me on track. It is a system of checks and balances that keeps me from
becoming the sole voice in the family. I do not want to be the one that
makes all of the decisions and tells everybody else what to do and how to do
it.
Connie
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Sandra Dodd
Connie, at that link about ethical decisionmaking two seemed to be closest to the things we're talking about here.
http://www.scu.edu/ethics/practicing/decision/making.pdf
What they call "The Common Good Approach" (Which option best serves the community as a whole, not just some members?) is like being your child's partner, being your spouse's partner.
Their "Virtue Approach" (Which option leads me to act as the sort of person I want to be?) is the incremental change toward being a good unschooling parent.
Cool!
Sandra
http://www.scu.edu/ethics/practicing/decision/making.pdf
What they call "The Common Good Approach" (Which option best serves the community as a whole, not just some members?) is like being your child's partner, being your spouse's partner.
Their "Virtue Approach" (Which option leads me to act as the sort of person I want to be?) is the incremental change toward being a good unschooling parent.
Cool!
Sandra
otherstar
>>>>>>>It helps to let go of there being a right answer and instead focus onI don’t know why but this made me think of my dad and his tendency to get
>>>>>>>solution*s* that are better for the goal you want and solutions that
>>>>>>>aren't as good.<<<<<<
his trucks stuck in the mud. It seemed like no matter what precautions he
took, he would get something stuck in the mud. The goal was always to get
the vehicle unstuck. How that worked varied depending on what tools he had
with him. I vividly remember standing around with my dad and my siblings
assessing the situation together. The first thing we did was see if dad had
his come along with him. If he did, then we started looking for trees that
were strong enough to use as an anchor to wench the vehicle out. If he didn’t
have his chains and such with him then we would look for other solutions.
Sometimes we came up with some crazy ideas. I remember offering ideas and
having my dad say, “Hmmm, that might work, let’s give it a try.” If it
obviously wouldn’t work, then he would tell me why he didn’t think it would
work. The goal was to get the vehicle unstuck. We often times had no idea
which idea or combination of ideas would lead to a solution. It was trial
and error but the trial and error still followed the laws of physics and
other universals. We weren’t looking for solutions that defied gravity or
anything else. We also didn’t expect to be able to get in the vehicle and
step on the gas and get out. At a certain point, we knew it was time to get
out of the car and assess the situation because continuing to do the same
thing simply led to a deeper hole that was even more difficult to get out
of.
Connie
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keetry
== The words right and wrong are so judgment laden that they are about as useful as Good and Bad.==
== There is no "right way," there is just YOUR WAY,==
I think this is true when you are talking about morals but not with actions. There are some actions that are just plain wrong, like purposely harming another person. The only time I can think of when they would not be wrong would be when it's done in defense of yourself or another.
Spanking is wrong whether it's a "light" swat on the bottom or a smack in the face. It is still physical violence perpetuated to control and that is wrong. It's not something that should be a parent's personal choice, or way, when it's violating the basic civil rights of the child.
Alysia
== There is no "right way," there is just YOUR WAY,==
I think this is true when you are talking about morals but not with actions. There are some actions that are just plain wrong, like purposely harming another person. The only time I can think of when they would not be wrong would be when it's done in defense of yourself or another.
Spanking is wrong whether it's a "light" swat on the bottom or a smack in the face. It is still physical violence perpetuated to control and that is wrong. It's not something that should be a parent's personal choice, or way, when it's violating the basic civil rights of the child.
Alysia
otherstar
>>>>>>>I think this is true when you are talking about morals but not withThis is very confusing. I was trying to figure out how to explain some of
>>>>>>>actions. There are some actions that are just plain wrong, like
>>>>>>>purposely harming another person. The only time I can think of when
>>>>>>>they would not be wrong would be when it's done in defense of
>>>>>>>yourself or another.<<<<<<<
this but couldn’t think of a way. Instead, I went and found some links about
morals and ethics. There are so many things in your statement above that
lead to confusion and questions. It would venture into meta-discussions. For
example, what do you mean by harm? Some people do things that are harmful
because they see harming as good. If a person follows a completely different
moral code than you, there probably isn’t much point in having a discussion
unless terms and ideas are defined at the outset. You have given spanking as
an example of something that is wrong no matter what. I would hope that most
people that practice unschooling either don’t spank or are trying to stop
spanking. For those that follow a different set of standards, not spanking
is seen as harmful and it doesn’t matter if it is physical violence. The end
justifies the mean.
I found this really cool article about chiropractic ethics (it’s a bit weird
that I stumbled upon it considering that my husband teaches ethics at a
chiropractic college). Here is the link:
http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=46121
It mentions a lot of the things that have been discussed here. I have copied
and pasted most of the article:
Ethics comes from the Greek word ethos - moral character or custom. Morality
comes from the Latin word moralis - custom or manner. The words both deal
with the customs or the manner in which people do things. Their modern
meanings relate to the way people act - either good or bad.
Morality, strictly speaking, is used to refer to what we would call moral
conduct or standards. Morality is looking at how good or bad our conduct is,
and our standards about conduct. Ethics is used to refer to the formal study
of those standards or conduct. Sometimes, one refers to the study of conduct
as moral philosophy, but that is less common than just saying "ethics."
Hence, in most chiropractic colleges, there is an ethics class, rather than
one named "morality." One might say that morality is ethics in action, but
in the end, the two terms can be used interchangeably. The study of ethics
or moral philosophy can be divided into three broad areas: descriptive,
normative and analytical (or metaethics).
Descriptive ethics is simply describing how people behave. For example,
people might say that they think that stealing is bad, but descriptive
ethics might tell us, from observing these people, that they may have
"downloaded" hundreds of media (in such forms as .mp3 audio or .bmp image)
files from file-sharing programs on the Internet. Descriptive ethics let us
see if we "walk the walk," and if we are just rationalizing our way past our
own moral beliefs.
Sometimes it takes an unbiased observer to point out to us where we are not
meeting our own standards. For some, discovering the hypocrisy might just
get us to change what we say is good or bad, and adopt and lessen our
professed moral code to fit our actions. Hopefully, descriptive ethics can
lead to some moral self-reflection and an improvement in our own behavior.
Normative ethics tries to establish norms or typical appropriate behaviors
people should perform. In ethics class, I call these the "shoulda,' gotta,'
needa,' hafta' do" things. One should be honest; in the language of ethics,
this is called "veracity." We know that as health care providers, we should
strive to help our patients; this is called beneficence. "Above all, do no
harm" (or, as Hippocrates wrote: "primum non nocere") is called
"nonmaleficence" in ethics (not "nonmalfeasance"). Fairness, or justice, is
another norm. Gratitude and reparations are often mentioned.
Metaethics often looks at how people determine for themselves what norms to
follow. I think all parents would agree with me that they have a significant
impact on what their children grow up to believe are right and wrong
actions. There are many other sources of people's personal ethical beliefs.
Generally, we learn good behaviors from our teachers and our religions. In
fact, despite all the strife due to religions, the commonality is that they
teach norms. The Ten Commandments, for example, is basically a list of
norms. For better, or often, for worse, our ethics are also influenced by
our peers, and our culture, as seen through the media. Lastly, we have the
ability to make changes though moral self-reflection.
What roles do guilt and fear play in ethics? They are the two great
guardians of the "straight and narrow." Some maintain their conduct within
accepted ethical norms because of the fear of getting caught. These people
often do whatever they think that they can "get away with." If they know
they are not being watched and are unlikely to get caught, they will violate
almost any ethical norm. Of course, if they are a bit paranoid or "chicken,"
they will not stray, as they are not prepared to follow the criminal's
dictum: "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."
Guilt, on the other hand, is the motivator of honest people. Their decision
to comply with ethical norms is not based on whether they will get caught,
but because they will know that they did something they think is wrong.
Sociopaths do not feel guilt because they do not believe their actions are
wrong. Ultimately, those who feel guilt as children decide to be "good"
because they don't want to feel guilty again. As they get older, being good
becomes a habit.
(I am putting this out there because looking at things from a more
philosophical perspective really helped me in my journey to becoming a more
thoughtful person. For some, it might be too complicated. For me, it is
precisely what I needed to see the bigger picture. The type of decision
making that is being discussed in relation to radical unschooling has been
around for centuries.)
Connie
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Pam Sorooshian
On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 8:53 AM, keetry <keetry@...> wrote:
don't see the difference between talking about morals and actions. Actions
spring from morals.
I think, for example, driving when drunk is bad and wrong and I don't think
it is unreasonably judgmental of me to say so. I was hit by a drunk driver
and I don't think it was just 'HIS WAY." His morals sucked and that's why
his actions sucked, too.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> == The words right and wrong are so judgment laden that they are about asI don't even think it is true when talking about morals - I guess because I
> useful as Good and Bad.==
>
> == There is no "right way," there is just YOUR WAY,==
>
> I think this is true when you are talking about morals but not with
> actions.>>>
>
don't see the difference between talking about morals and actions. Actions
spring from morals.
I think, for example, driving when drunk is bad and wrong and I don't think
it is unreasonably judgmental of me to say so. I was hit by a drunk driver
and I don't think it was just 'HIS WAY." His morals sucked and that's why
his actions sucked, too.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]