Structure
Leigh DeVore
Having a hard time understanding how proclaimed unschoolers insist that their kids live and thrive on structure (that the parent sets up). While we have an ebb and flow to our days there is little- if anything- I would call structured. Any a parent setting up and deciding what that structure is with no input from their kids sounds more like eclectic homeschooling to me. Am I missing the big picture?
Leigh
Sent from my iPhone
Leigh
Sent from my iPhone
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
"Having a hard time understanding how proclaimed unschoolers insist that their kids live and thrive on structure (that the parent sets up). While we have an ebb and flow to our days there is little- if anything- I would call structured. Any a parent setting up and deciding what that structure is with no input from their kids sounds more like eclectic homeschooling to me. Am I missing the big picture?"
\
Are you reading this here in this list? Structure can look more like ebb and flow or a routine for some.
Are you reading somewhere that someone has an imposed schedule on their kids and called it unschooling?
There are unschoolers that only take unschooling as far as academic and not into the rest of their life as Radical Unschoolers do.
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/radical%c2%a0
Alex Polikowsky
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Leigh DeVore
No, not here. And I understand how a child could ask the parent for more structure and to set that up. This conversation was with a local unschooling group that the moms all get together and create lessons for weekly gatherings with no input from the kids involved. When I asked about it I was told that kids appreciate structure. These are people that classify themselves as radical unschoolers.
It just didn't jibe with what I've learned here and from other radical unschooling families I've come into contact with. It just made me question if I was missing something somewhere.
Leigh
Sent from my iPhone
It just didn't jibe with what I've learned here and from other radical unschooling families I've come into contact with. It just made me question if I was missing something somewhere.
Leigh
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 23, 2012, at 8:23 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> "Having a hard time understanding how proclaimed unschoolers insist that their kids live and thrive on structure (that the parent sets up). While we have an ebb and flow to our days there is little- if anything- I would call structured. Any a parent setting up and deciding what that structure is with no input from their kids sounds more like eclectic homeschooling to me. Am I missing the big picture?"
> \
> Are you reading this here in this list? Structure can look more like ebb and flow or a routine for some.
> Are you reading somewhere that someone has an imposed schedule on their kids and called it unschooling?
>
> There are unschoolers that only take unschooling as far as academic and not into the rest of their life as Radical Unschoolers do.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/unschool/radical
>
> Alex Polikowsky
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-It just didn't jibe with what I've learned here and from other radical unschooling families I've come into contact with. It just made me question if I was missing something somewhere.-=-
A couple of things you're overlooking. There's a difference in basic, vanilla unschooling and radical unschooling.
Among radical unschoolers, some are more philosophical than others.
There is no central governing body to legislate it. Find ideas you like and examples you like, and do what seems to work best for your family.
Go with principles rather than rules.
http://sandradodd.com/rules
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A couple of things you're overlooking. There's a difference in basic, vanilla unschooling and radical unschooling.
Among radical unschoolers, some are more philosophical than others.
There is no central governing body to legislate it. Find ideas you like and examples you like, and do what seems to work best for your family.
Go with principles rather than rules.
http://sandradodd.com/rules
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chris ester
On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 10:08 PM, Leigh DeVore <gaiablessed@...>wrote:
I think that the idea of "children appreciate structure" myth came from
back when the original factory schools that were developed to literally get
children off of the streets and provide supervision during the time that
their parents were working in the factories did see children happier than
the absolute neglect that they suffered otherwise. These schools fell back
on 'structure', meaning lots of rules and control and the children did fare
better because the alternative that was available was so bad.
However, saying that a child does 'better' in a situation does not mean
that every child or even any one child is best served by that same
situation. And I don't know that any of those children actually appreciate
structure, I think that maybe many children are just so used to it by the
time they are 'school age'. Many parents start a few minutes after their
child is born trying to get that child on a 'schedule'. I am always
confused and dismayed when 'experts' tell new parents to get the baby on a
schedule, like it is natural and a baby needs to be controlled in when they
eat (not just when they are hungry), and when they are awake or asleep.
I think that adults that get off track from what is valuable in a child's
life appreciate structure because it is easier to plan while meeting some
outside need (from that of the child's or family's) to check certain
blocks, like when a child learns to read,etc.
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> **informed, in touch group.
> >>>>It just made me question if I was missing something somewhere.
>
>
> Leigh
> Sent from my iPhone<<<<<<
>
>
> Perhaps you are missing a better unschoolers' group? Or at least a more
I think that the idea of "children appreciate structure" myth came from
back when the original factory schools that were developed to literally get
children off of the streets and provide supervision during the time that
their parents were working in the factories did see children happier than
the absolute neglect that they suffered otherwise. These schools fell back
on 'structure', meaning lots of rules and control and the children did fare
better because the alternative that was available was so bad.
However, saying that a child does 'better' in a situation does not mean
that every child or even any one child is best served by that same
situation. And I don't know that any of those children actually appreciate
structure, I think that maybe many children are just so used to it by the
time they are 'school age'. Many parents start a few minutes after their
child is born trying to get that child on a 'schedule'. I am always
confused and dismayed when 'experts' tell new parents to get the baby on a
schedule, like it is natural and a baby needs to be controlled in when they
eat (not just when they are hungry), and when they are awake or asleep.
I think that adults that get off track from what is valuable in a child's
life appreciate structure because it is easier to plan while meeting some
outside need (from that of the child's or family's) to check certain
blocks, like when a child learns to read,etc.
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think that adults that get off track from what is valuable in a child's
life appreciate structure because it is easier to plan while meeting some
outside need (from that of the child's or family's) to check certain
blocks, like when a child learns to read,etc.-=-
Yes.
When the parent's overriding intention is control, structure helps.
Or when a parent has a set of expectations that can only be met within a structured framework, then it will seem to that parent as though "the child needs structure."
They're not seeing their children directly, is my guess. They see what they want their children to do and be, rather than accepting what they are.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
life appreciate structure because it is easier to plan while meeting some
outside need (from that of the child's or family's) to check certain
blocks, like when a child learns to read,etc.-=-
Yes.
When the parent's overriding intention is control, structure helps.
Or when a parent has a set of expectations that can only be met within a structured framework, then it will seem to that parent as though "the child needs structure."
They're not seeing their children directly, is my guess. They see what they want their children to do and be, rather than accepting what they are.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 9:02 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
nephew that were disturbed, and even quite upset when they were kids, if
their regular routines were interrupted. They went to school, but that
wasn't a schoolish thing, it was their nature. Their mom and dad are both
very much like that, too.
There can be predictability and scheduling in an unschooling life that
doesn't involve lessons and assignments and top-down parent-planned
structured schoolishness.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Or when a parent has a set of expectations that can only be met within aOr maybe they have a child who likes predictability. I have a niece and
> structured framework, then it will seem to that parent as though "the child
> needs structure."
nephew that were disturbed, and even quite upset when they were kids, if
their regular routines were interrupted. They went to school, but that
wasn't a schoolish thing, it was their nature. Their mom and dad are both
very much like that, too.
There can be predictability and scheduling in an unschooling life that
doesn't involve lessons and assignments and top-down parent-planned
structured schoolishness.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
Sometimes individuals in a group get disillusioned with what they once believed in. And sometimes one individual can change the perspective of a whole group. Like how divorce can be contagious, once someone starts talking about how their child has said they'd be interested in doing a body of study this way the other members of the group may be looking more for those words from their children. And once they start looking they start hearing their children talking about wanting to do something and they hear them saying how they'd like to do something more formally. So, they step away from some of those ideas they once embraced. They say that this body of study, these formal lessons are things the children have initiated. They are following the lead of their children. When really they are nervous and doubtful and suddenly are hoping that they can keep their children safe in a world that seems unknowable and maybe those French lessons they got once a week at
their unschooling gathering will show them the light and they way and get them into a job or a university or a marriage.
But maybe that isn't what's happening.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Leigh DeVore <gaiablessed@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, 24 August 2012, 12:08
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Structure
No, not here. And I understand how a child could ask the parent for more structure and to set that up. This conversation was with a local unschooling group that the moms all get together and create lessons for weekly gatherings with no input from the kids involved. When I asked about it I was told that kids appreciate structure. These are people that classify themselves as radical unschoolers.
It just didn't jibe with what I've learned here and from other radical unschooling families I've come into contact with. It just made me question if I was missing something somewhere.
Leigh
Sent from my iPhone
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
their unschooling gathering will show them the light and they way and get them into a job or a university or a marriage.
But maybe that isn't what's happening.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Leigh DeVore <gaiablessed@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, 24 August 2012, 12:08
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Structure
No, not here. And I understand how a child could ask the parent for more structure and to set that up. This conversation was with a local unschooling group that the moms all get together and create lessons for weekly gatherings with no input from the kids involved. When I asked about it I was told that kids appreciate structure. These are people that classify themselves as radical unschoolers.
It just didn't jibe with what I've learned here and from other radical unschooling families I've come into contact with. It just made me question if I was missing something somewhere.
Leigh
Sent from my iPhone
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
teresa
--- In [email protected], Leigh DeVore <gaiablessed@...> wrote:
Teresa
>This conversation was with a local unschooling group that the moms all get together and create lessons for weekly gatherings with no input from the kids involved. When I asked about it I was told that kids appreciate structure.
>Maybe the kids weren't so much appreciating the structure as they were the fun of getting together with others or the joy of seeing their parents get so jazzed about planning and participating in activities. Both those can be powerful factors in kids' enjoyment, but of course, both of those can happen in other environments besides structured ones.
Teresa
Meredith
> This conversation was with a local unschooling group that the moms all get together and create lessons for weekly gatherings with no input from the kids involved. When I asked about it I was told that kids appreciate structure.***************
In that sort of situation, too, "structure" is more likely to guarantee parents will sign on and bring kids regularly - which means kids get to see friends regularly rather than on a "hit and miss" basis. The structure isn't necessarily the good part. A well established play group would have the same effect, but the process of establishing one can take longer.
"No input from the kids" may not be as cut and dried as the perception from the outside, too. Funshops at unschooling conferences and gatherings could be seen to have "no input from the kids" - or camps created for unschooling teens. But the success or failure of those sorts of things depend on them being responsive to the participants and thoughtful of their likes and interests. Sometimes people go to funshops (and camps) without a whole lot of interest in the activity itself, but very interested in the people there. If the goal of whoever is organizing things is to create lessons to educate people, that's a problem. But if learning something new is just one facet of whatever is presented, it's not such a big deal if some people are there just to hang out with friends.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-"No input from the kids" may not be as cut and dried as the perception from the outside, too. Funshops at unschooling conferences and gatherings could be seen to have "no input from the kids" - or camps created for unschooling teens.-=-
Some homeschooling conferences are so structured, though, that if a child signs up for a workshop he has to stay in that room, no exception, can't leave. And at that point, it doesn't seem fun or good to me at all anymore.
I also, personally, much prefer things that are of interest to children OR adults, and things they can come and go from if they aren't having fun, or if they are and want to go and bring a friend or relative to join in.
Some funships seem created just so the person running it could get a discount on the registration, too, and aren't really well thought out, and some aren't well attended, and occasionally one is not attended at all. But if someone sets up a station and what they're doing is attractive and interesting, it should be open to adults or teens or (unless it's dangerous) to kids.
That's my opinion about structure. Age divisions make things seem more like school to me.
At the Always Learning Live events (including SUSS in that, a Santa Fe gathering) we've had areas set aside for kids to use, but they weren't required to go there, or stay there, and anyone else could go there, too.
And on the other hand, sometimes kids who haven't been to school really enjoy a situation where they show up and are surprised by a planned activity. That's true. The problem with an unschooling group having classes/lessons/"structure" that looks like school is that it can keep deschooling from even starting.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Some homeschooling conferences are so structured, though, that if a child signs up for a workshop he has to stay in that room, no exception, can't leave. And at that point, it doesn't seem fun or good to me at all anymore.
I also, personally, much prefer things that are of interest to children OR adults, and things they can come and go from if they aren't having fun, or if they are and want to go and bring a friend or relative to join in.
Some funships seem created just so the person running it could get a discount on the registration, too, and aren't really well thought out, and some aren't well attended, and occasionally one is not attended at all. But if someone sets up a station and what they're doing is attractive and interesting, it should be open to adults or teens or (unless it's dangerous) to kids.
That's my opinion about structure. Age divisions make things seem more like school to me.
At the Always Learning Live events (including SUSS in that, a Santa Fe gathering) we've had areas set aside for kids to use, but they weren't required to go there, or stay there, and anyone else could go there, too.
And on the other hand, sometimes kids who haven't been to school really enjoy a situation where they show up and are surprised by a planned activity. That's true. The problem with an unschooling group having classes/lessons/"structure" that looks like school is that it can keep deschooling from even starting.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]